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Conversation with a former top 5 MBA student adcom
 

Derivatives's picture
ST
(Orangutan, 292
 
Points)
 on 7/22/12 at 11:00am
Conversation former MBA.jpg

So with round 1 mba admissions cycle starting to get into full gear, a lot of applicants are very anxious. I recently had a chance to catch up with an old friend of mine who just graduated from a top 5 business school and was a student member of the adcom. After talking about a lot of random stuff, I asked him about mba admissions and for his thoughts on the process. Since he graduated, he was able to give more details than usual. I'm gonna paraphrase what he said in quotes regarding a few issues that I brought up.

1. Importance of the GMAT

"I actually think people underestimate how important the gmat is. At our school, applicants who scored 730+ were put in a separate pile from the rest, and those who scored 760+ got special attention. Of course in no way does a high score guarantee admissions, but what I found was that adcom members were much more willing to give applicants a benefit of the doubt when they had high stats. So for instance, if someone had a 3.8/770 but had mediocre extracurriculars or even less than amazing essays, they were given a lot of leeway. I was surprised by this since adcom always say in public that the process is holistic and that we look at multiple factors. But I think the top programs are trying to be more serious academically and get really bright people; gmat will become even more important in the near future, in my view."

2. Importance of the essays

"Essays are certainly important but overrated. It's actually really tough to write essays that are so good that they can switch you over from ding/waitlist to admit. Basically the essays would need to be not just superbly well-written but contain stories/experiences that are quite compelling and unique. Not too many applicants have those stories. So a lot of the essays we read sound all the same. And it's obvious that many of them use consultants to craft their stories. I know this goes against conventional wisdom, but i think a high gmat score can do a lot more for one's chances than essays."

3. Why do traders struggle with top MBA admissions?

"You have to realize that most adcom officers are women who got liberal arts degrees and don't know much about trading. They know the big names in finance and consulting obviously, but that's about it. A very successful trader from a prop shop for instance will have high hurdle. First they wonder if this person is so good at trading, why does he need an MBA? More importantly though, they feel that traders don't bring the type of skillsets from their work that can add much value to an MBA class discussion. They LOVE MBB consultants and PE folks precisely for this reason, along with of course strong connections with these firms. So a trader really has to go outside of the box and do something interesting outside of work to get in."

4. What do you think of admissions consultants?

"To be honest I think they're a joke. And I know quite a few adcom members who feel the same way. If you're a non-native english speaker and can't write essays, then yeah you might need some serious guidance. But by and large, I don't see what value they're adding. They will help brainstorm some topics you can discuss. After you write the essays, they will recommend ways to improve them, but none of that really has an impact on admissions. If your professional and personal experience have been boring, even the world's best consultant can't help you out on that front. If I were to spend money, I would much rather hire a good GMAT tutor than waste it on admissions consultants who bring very little value. The whole industry is a semi-scam."

Tags:
Ravenous's picture

"You have to realize that

HF
(King Kong, 1,347
 
Points)
 on 7/17/12 at 10:12pm

"You have to realize that most adcom officers are women who got liberal arts degrees and don't know much about [anything]."

It all makes sense now.

keensetofpeepers's picture

MBA admission consultants

(Baboon, 147
 
Points)
 on 7/17/12 at 10:51pm

MBA admission consultants certainly take advantage of applicant insecurities, but for certain applicants such as military folks perhaps untutored in the language of business essay review services can be helpful. but yeah for the most part their services don't justify $4000-$5000 packages

Brady4MVP's picture

Ravenous: "You have to

HF
(Neanderthal, 3,161
 
Points)
 on 7/17/12 at 10:58pm
Ravenous:

"You have to realize that most adcom officers are women who got liberal arts degrees and don't know much about [anything]."

It all makes sense now.

Lol. I gave you a banana for this.

UFOinsider's picture

Ravenous: You have to realize

O
(Human, 10,346
 
Points)
 on 7/17/12 at 11:10pm
Ravenous:

You have to realize that most adcom officers are women who got liberal arts degree

note to self when writing essay

YOU JUST GOT TROLLED
http://www.troll.me/images/red-foreman322/dont-you...

Spalding Get Your Foot Off the Boat's picture

The 730 pile cutoff really

 
Points)
 on 7/18/12 at 12:42am

The 730 pile cutoff really sucks for those of us who scored 720... i got a little time and am pretty confident i can get a 730 or 740, worth it or no? Most say "no, spend that time on your essays!"

GS's picture

The GPA thing also puts Math

ST
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 5:58am

The GPA thing also puts Math , Science and Engineering graduates at a disadvantage.
A 3.6 in CS/EE should not be worth less than a 3.8 in English. Certainly no bank/hedge fund thinks it is. I wonder if Adcoms give the difficulty of your major some consideration. I would hope that they would.

DCFwacc's picture

Spalding Get Your Foot Off

ER
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 7:10am
Spalding Get Your Foot Off the Boat:

The 730 pile cutoff really sucks for those of us who scored 720... i got a little time and am pretty confident i can get a 730 or 740, worth it or no? Most say "no, spend that time on your essays!"

Same boat, except with a 710. I was told that since I have 80+/80+ percentiles I shouldn't bother retaking. Never realized that strict buckets were formed above 730. Hmm..

mdk6c's picture

An important thing to realize

(Baboon, 166
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 9:32am

An important thing to realize in MBA admissions is that the adcom is not interested in your development per se. What they are singularly interested in is choosing incoming students that will best serve the interests of the school. And "best interests of the school" generally means their recruiting statistics.

mdk6c's picture

What I mean is, a person from

(Baboon, 166
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 9:35am

What I mean is, a person from MBB may be less qualified than somebody from a less prestigious consulting firm, but the person brings MBB connections along wherever they go, which may help the school place more people in MBB. Schools like that. It's not a meritocracy.

Xepa's picture

I worked in an admissions

CO
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 9:52am

I worked in an admissions office for a year as well.

Yes, they are liberal arts women that don't know much about the real world. So true, and so sad. And FYI, I could get them to give special attention to anyone I wanted. Your best best to get someone into a school is to reach out to someone who works WITH an admission officer and have them refer candidates. Just a tip.

That_Aston's picture

Ravenous: "You have to

CF
(Gorilla, 573
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 11:33am
Ravenous:

"You have to realize that most adcom officers are women who got liberal arts degrees and don't know much about [anything]."

It all makes sense now.

I lol'ed. But seriously this is a good to know thread if true.

Here to learn and hopefully pass on some knowledge as well. SB if I helped.

bfin's picture

Xepa: I worked in an

CF
(Neanderthal, 2,772
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 11:34am
Xepa:

I worked in an admissions office for a year as well.

Yes, they are liberal arts women that don't know much about the real world. So true, and so sad. And FYI, I could get them to give special attention to anyone I wanted. Your best best to get someone into a school is to reach out to someone who works WITH an admission officer and have them refer candidates. Just a tip.

You just created a shit storm haha.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

europeancall's picture

a guy from an MBB would be

(Chimp, 4
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 12:47pm

a guy from an MBB would be generally SMARTER than the average guy applying for an MBA .. and Business Schools want SMART guys to attend their classes. It's simple as that ... Also GMAT is important especially for business schools that send a significant percentage of their classes in consulting, because consulting firms DO CARE about your GMAT score.

Business schools care about three things:

1. recruting statistics (as mentioned before)

2. diversity (so they can boast about how SPECIAL they are) in terms of demographics, industries you have worked before

3. how much value YOU can add in class - that's why they tend to favour consultants instead of traders, it's not because are considered evil or something

Brady4MVP's picture

europeancall: a guy from an

HF
(Neanderthal, 3,161
 
Points)
 on 7/21/12 at 2:48am
europeancall:

a guy from an MBB would be generally SMARTER than the average guy applying for an MBA .. and Business Schools want SMART guys to attend their classes. It's simple as that ... Also GMAT is important especially for business schools that send a significant percentage of their classes in consulting, because consulting firms DO CARE about your GMAT score.

Business schools care about three things:

1. recruting statistics (as mentioned before)

2. diversity (so they can boast about how SPECIAL they are) in terms of demographics, industries you have worked before

3. how much value YOU can add in class - that's why they tend to favour consultants instead of traders, it's not because are considered evil or something

Yup. This is a great post. On average, a person at MBB is smarter than the person at accenture. The former most likely went to a top college, excelled there, and kicked serious butt on the case interviews. Getting MBB out of undergrad is MUCH harder than getting it out of b-school since there are much fewer analyst spots. So in a large way, working at a MBB, top BB, PE, HF, etc., are a signal to b-school adcom that the applicant is very well-qualified.

GMAT score matters more than people think.

Betsy Massar's picture

keensetofpeepers: MBA

EN
(Gorilla, 535
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 1:16pm
keensetofpeepers:

MBA admission consultants certainly take advantage of applicant insecurities, but for certain applicants such as military folks perhaps untutored in the language of business essay review services can be helpful. but yeah for the most part their services don't justify $4000-$5000 packages

Hey! Not all of us take advantage of applicant insecurities. I am going to speak for myself here, as I cannot say anything for anyone else, but....

My goal is to help people. If I get paid for it, that's better, because then we both value the relationship. If your pal helped, that's cool too, but the investment is different. I came to this business after working for big financial firms and decided to turn pro after I realized it was fun and that I might be able to give someone just enough advice and coaching to help the applicant tip the ball into the net. That's it.
Lots of people who put together applications (and it is about the whole deal, not just the essays), have a decent business background, but don't know how to tell their own story well enough. It's a skill that many really haven't learned anywhere else, especially if they are naturally humble (and that's a trait business schools look for).

Also, not all consultants charge exorbitant prices. We can be reasonable, too. And if someone is worried about a big ticket bill, they can always go hourly and just get help where they really feel they need it.

I'm not going to apologize for anyone who doesn't act professionally in my industry, but some of us really do want to just help students. I'll do pro bono work if someone needs it. Most of us do. And I'll answer your questions here on my Q&A thread, do some PMs and work on folks' resumes.

Hope to hear from you,
Betsy

Betsy Massar
Check out my B-School Q&A Forum on WSO
Good posts get silver bananas!
Founder of MasterAdmissions.com

JDimon's picture

There are MBA admissions

(Orangutan, 252
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 1:33pm

There is already a book on you. That book is already being written. And if I talked to your friends, your teachers, your professionals, your family, I would know so much about you I wouldn't even have to meet you. You write the book the way you want to be

Mechanical Turk's picture

I can vouch for Betsy. She is

(Chimp, 1
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 5:24pm

MT

Tzeentch99's picture

How was the GRE seen in the

(Monkey, 44
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 6:11pm
bfin's picture

Mechanical Turk: I can vouch

CF
(Neanderthal, 2,772
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 6:26pm

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

UFOinsider's picture

bfin: Mechanical Turk: I

O
(Human, 10,346
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 7:14pm

YOU JUST GOT TROLLED
http://www.troll.me/images/red-foreman322/dont-you...

Underground's picture

Mechanical Turk: I can vouch

(Baboon, 109
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 8:28pm
hbsguru.com's picture

as to traders, at HBS in

(Monkey, 35
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 8:59pm

Ask [email protected]
hbsguru.com

Betsy Massar's picture

Mechanical Turk: I can vouch

EN
(Gorilla, 535
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 9:49pm

Betsy Massar
Check out my B-School Q&A Forum on WSO
Good posts get silver bananas!
Founder of MasterAdmissions.com

keensetofpeepers's picture

Betsy

(Baboon, 147
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 10:53pm
Betsy Massar's picture

keensetofpeepers: [ sorry, i

EN
(Gorilla, 535
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 10:58pm

Betsy Massar
Check out my B-School Q&A Forum on WSO
Good posts get silver bananas!
Founder of MasterAdmissions.com

keensetofpeepers's picture

Thanks Betsy also

(Baboon, 147
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 11:15pm
Brady4MVP's picture

keensetofpeepers: Betsy

HF
(Neanderthal, 3,161
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 11:18pm
Brady4MVP's picture

Underground: Mechanical

HF
(Neanderthal, 3,161
 
Points)
 on 7/20/12 at 11:19pm
glm1510's picture

Brady4MVP: Underground: M

O
 
Points)
 on 7/21/12 at 2:45am
hbsguru.com's picture

THIS IS REPOSTED FROM MY OWN

(Monkey, 35
 
Points)
 on 7/21/12 at 6:30am

Ask [email protected]
hbsguru.com

GS's picture

hbsguru.com: THIS IS REPOSTED

ST
 
Points)
 on 7/21/12 at 2:50pm
cinnamontoastcrunch's picture

This is nauseating. Is it not

O
(Orangutan, 262
 
Points)
 on 7/21/12 at 3:31pm

My WSO Blog

hbsguru.com's picture

GS: [Thanks, One follow up

(Monkey, 35
 
Points)
 on 7/21/12 at 8:58pm

Ask [email protected]
hbsguru.com

hbsguru.com's picture

cinnamontoastcrunch: This is

(Monkey, 35
 
Points)
 on 7/21/12 at 8:55pm

Ask [email protected]
hbsguru.com

Brady4MVP's picture

cinnamontoastcrunch: This is

HF
(Neanderthal, 3,161
 
Points)
 on 7/21/12 at 11:26pm
cinnamontoastcrunch's picture

Sandy should take Brady on as

O
(Orangutan, 262
 
Points)
 on 7/22/12 at 10:59am

My WSO Blog

GS's picture

hbsguru.com: GS: [Thanks,

ST
 
Points)
 on 7/22/12 at 11:08am
mappleby's picture

keensetofpeepers: Thanks

O
(Baboon, 102
 
Points)
 on 7/22/12 at 1:33pm
mappleby's picture

keensetofpeepers: Thanks

O
(Baboon, 102
 
Points)
 on 7/22/12 at 1:33pm
09grad's picture

Guys just work on the

PE
(Orangutan, 335
 
Points)
 on 7/22/12 at 1:46pm
ChrisHansen's picture

stupid question but what does

(Gorilla, 530
 
Points)
 on 7/22/12 at 6:30pm

"I'm the luckiest guy in the world, and when I die I want to come back as me."
-Mark Cuban

lifeofpurpose's picture

i didnt get into HBS but got

(Gorilla, 523
 
Points)
 on 7/22/12 at 6:36pm
Starpoints's picture

ChrisHansen: stupid question

 
Points)
 on 7/22/12 at 7:54pm
Brady4MVP's picture

09grad: Guys just work on the

HF
(Neanderthal, 3,161
 
Points)
 on 7/22/12 at 8:06pm
Senvik's picture

JDimon: There are MBA

 
Points)
 on 7/23/12 at 10:40am

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." - IlliniProgrammer

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