Wis. governor to outline intentions in budget
So I've been blind for a week so I couldn't do much reading... and when I started browsing through various news sites I saw this article and it caught my eye.
The few tidbits that really confused me:
"With the union rights proposal stuck in a legislative stalemate thanks to runaway Senate Democrats..."
"Sen. Jon Erpenbach, one of the 14 Democrats who fled to Illinois..."
"Erpenbach and other Democrats who fled say Walker's unwillingness to deal motivates them to stay away. "
WTF? Senators can run away to stall bills? He's hiding in Illinois to avoid voting? Someone please explain to me how this works. Maybe it's b/c I had a few, but this makes absolutely no sense to me.
I DONT UNDERSTAND
Yeah man, I have been ranting about this as well as others.
Listen, I get it, Dem's hate this. They also hate that it will pass and they can't stop it. The thing is, you simply cannot leave the state and hinder the democratic process.
The people of Wisconsin have spoken and they elected an overwhelmingly Republican everything. They want budget cuts and fiscal tightening.
Yeah, maybe removing collective bargaining is extreme, but it is not unconstitutional and they have the votes. Dems should bitch and moan, fight to the last minute, but ultimately, you show the fuck up and do your job. Republicans tried everything in the book to stop the healthcare bill, but they showed up and got it shoved down their throat.
Dems run and fucking hide.
I also love how people are comparing Walker to a dictator and saying how he isn't listening to the people. 1.2MM people voted for him. 10-20M people are protesting.
I think he is listening to the people who elected him, not the fuckers going ape shit because someone is taking away their bottle.
Also, to all the people moaning about how little they make as a state employee, please feel free to quit and look elsewhere. No one is forcing you to serve the state.
Winning an election does not mean you have a mandate to do everything you want to do. Just because he won, does not mean that the people who elected him are going to agree with him on every position and it certainly does not mean that a majority of the people who voted for him want to end collective bargaining right (all polls show that a majority of people want to keep collective bargaining rights, in fact.)
The whole argument Walker is pushing is based on a heaping pile of bullshit and misleading information. Let me be clear, I am not a big Union guy at all. However, you cannot argue that ending collective bargaining is a budget saving measure. It's a union busting power play for political purposes (Unions support democrats overwhelmingly, crush them, appease big corporate interests, and make sure more money flows your way.) The public sector union in Wisconsin agreed to Walker's cuts and to contribute more to their pensions annually, but he doesn't care, he just wants to remove collective bargaining.
Now, let's take a look at some of the arguments put forth by people in favor of Walker's plan and how they are based on misleading information:
1.) Teachers and their ilk make ~$53K per year vs. $33K for private sector employees. Why is this bullshit? Because if you look at actual comparatively educated individuals in the private sector, teachers are not making more. Yeah, Joe Schmo who didn't get a degree with make less than a teacher, but that teacher also went to a four year college (and sometimes more than that) and is on the higher end of the education spectrum. The idea that "well, they're in a union, so that's why they make more than the median idiot in this country" is total bullshit. No one goes into teaching to be wealthy. I'm sure someone will chime in with a "but I know of a school administrator that makes $120K." That's pretty irrelevant given the fact that most people on this site scoff at $120K (unless you're a first year analyst) and believe $800K a year is "upper middle class."
2.) Tax payers shouldn't have to pay for teacher's pensions! Let's think about this for a minute and get past all the bullshit that you want to believe is true. In reality, pensions are a form of deferred compensation. So, let's say you are a teacher and you make $50K per year of compensation. What you will actually see before taxes is, for example, $45K, with $3K being taken out and put towards your retirement plan, and $2K being put towards your healthcare plan. This money gets pooled together and grows based on contributions every year and is actively managed by investment houses. Tax payers only pay if there is a short fall. Why might their be a shortfall? State governments promise too much, stock markets decimated in a financial crisis (pretty sure the teacher's union didn't help crater the global economy, but let's make sure they pay for Joe Cassano & friends' big mistakes), you know, the usual shit.
See this for a longer-winded explanation of point 2: http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-…
And, again, I really get heated over the whole "he won the election, get over it Dems" bullshit. If that's the case, then I'm pretty sure the Republicans should've rolled the fuck over when Obama beat McCain in a landslide in 2008. And yes, I'm pretty sure that 365 electoral college votes compared to McCain's 173 qualifies as a landslide when Bush was claiming a mandate after beating Kerry by one state (Ohio.) When the Republicans use the filibuster more in 2 years than it had been used in history, that's just them fighting for their constituents! When the Dems do something big to fight for their constituents (and a position that is favored by the public at large), it's "cowardly bullshit! They lost and need to deal with it!" Give me a fucking break.
It doesn't even matter where you stand on this issue, at least be honest with your rationale and make arguments based in reality. If you just think unions should be busted, then say it! But recognize that this is NOT the majority opinion and that Dems don't need to simply roll over because "Walker won!" Btw, what'd Walker get in the vote anyway, like 52%? Not sure 52% of the vote gives you the mandate to run a policy train on the pussies and asses of the Democrats in your state government.
Wrong wrong wrong -> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100014240527487034086045761642907177249…
That is average. Average! Look at the fringe benefits if you want to have a discussion about unions.
And regarding the funding of pensions....
The State is on the hook for their pensions, and taxpayers are on the hook for the State.
I'll throw in some numbers on health insurance as well even though you didn't mention that in your post.
Welcome to America. If you don't like something you just run away and stop everything.
Dems might think they are winning votes with this, but the only thing they are doing is making themselves look bad. Unions would vote for them no matter what. What benefit does Walker get for caving? Unions are solidly Democrat.
The people of Wisconsin (IE, the ones who go to work and dont have time to protest) are getting a real good idea of what the Democrats are like. They abandon their duties because they don't like something. I really think you will see a backlash because of this.
Pensions and benefits ruined the Big 3. They are now ruining the rest of this country.
Damn, I wish the Republicans had run during healthcare reform.
I just can't believe you're actually ALLOWED to flee the state to avoid doing your job without risk of getting fired. ESPECIALLY since they're still public servants.
For all the bitching about politicians, how come I don't see any news articles on this?
The thing that people don't get is that the budget shortfall is entirely the states' fault. All of the pension/healthcare/benefit claims that teachers get was negotiated with the state - and it's all stuff the state agreed to fund. And then, AND THEN, for years they didn't pay the actuarially needed amount of money needed to fund the pensions. It's like buying a house on a thirty year fixed mortgage and then trying to pay it all off on the 30th year (with interest) after having gone on a Charlie Sheen for the last decade. Meanwhile the Koch brothers have the Republicans by the balls, and Scott Walker on tape saying they need to plant operatives in nonviolent protests to instigate an incident.
This bill basically says that unions only have a right to negotiate their salary up to COLA and that any raises will have to pass by referendum by the municipality. Fuck that. That's insane. Most municipalities can't negotiate to tap twice after pissing down their pant leg, but to get a majority to pay teachers? Shit.
If I were a senator I'd flee the fucking state. God damn.
Silver banana to you for using Charlie Sheen as a term
Niiiiccceee......
You gotta do what is necessary. Sane people act insane in an insane world.
You are a loony man. One day you will see the light.
X2
One of the joys of being a UW-Madison student is getting basically an hourly update on this crap. The democrats all fled to prevent a quorum in the state senate. They went to Illinois because the authorities can't go looking for them across state lines. However the senate put in place a few rules to pressure them to come back. If a senator is absent for more than two consecutive sessions, they lose direct deposit of their paycheck and have to pick up their paper check on the floor of the senate. Now the senate majority leader has taken over the responsibility of reviewing and approving staff members' timesheets. Staffers have also been denied access to the Capitol copy machines. Part of the reason the Governor wanted to get this through quickly was part of the plan was to save money by refinancing some of the state's debt. However the deadline to do pass the bill so that can be done is basically today.
The Capitol has become the new cool place to hang out and sleep overnight. All the uber-liberal asshats are running around with signs, banners, drums and horns. And apparently I'm some sort of combination of Hitler/Mubarak/Madoff/George W. Bush for agreeing with the Governor's plan. At first it was kind of cool to be the headline story in the national news, but now its just fucking old. I just want this thing to get passed so I can go back to laughing at the misfortune of some other God-forsaken town.
Oh, I've very aware that this is an organized Dem attempt to block the bill. I'm outraged that this loophole exists in the first place. Look, let's apply this logic to the federal level. Would it be appropriate if all the Dem senators decided to 'flee' to Canada because they 'believed' that Republicans' plan to cut the budget is wrong? Are they still serving the people?
As for the 'people' the 'people' elected a governor who promised to eliminate state jobs to save money, and filled the state legislature with Republicans. Sounds more like the 'people' they are supposed to represent actually voted for this.
I think its very ironic, and this is what infuriates me the most, is that during the last Congress, with all the debate about stimulus, health care, financial regulation, etc. the democrats line was basically "we're in charge now, sit down and shut up." Now in the tables have turned, and all of a sudden the dems aren't the big dicks in the building anymore. Now its all "boo hoo this isn't fair" Fair, who's the fucking nihilists around here you bunch of fucking crybabies? At least the Republicans tried to fight what they disagreed with within the legislative process framework.
The Democratic Senators have the obligation to be against this bill. That obligation means they fight against it and do what they can to stop it. They also have a great obligation to uphold the Democratic process for the whole state of Wisconsin.
Fleeing out of the state to avoid allowing the Republicans to pass something is destroying the Democratic process. They might be passing their immediate duty, but failing their supreme duty.
Fleeing the state and preventing a vote is like a cop breaking the law to arrest a bad guy. By doing the first thing he destroys all good that the second things might have.
Anyone who agrees with their fleeing is opening themselves up to some nasty consequences. The PEOPLE of Wisconsin (AKA the majority who elected all of these Republicans) have spoken and they want drastic reforms. Collective bargaining is not a right or something necessary. It is something relatively new, especially for white collar, government workers.
Walker might be doing something "radical", but the people elected him and his Republican majority legislature. They also elected a Republican state Senator and I believe a House Rep.
The PEOPLE have spoken and the Democrats have decided to simply make a mockery of the Democratic institution.
Not only do I hope Walker passes this, but when these losers show up, I hope he passes reform legislature that would make abandoning your post a civil penalty.
Anyone who supports the Dems basically hiding out to prevent this is supporting the circumvention of Democracy for a minority in power.
10-20M Democratic, Union supporters are protesting. What about the 1.2MM people who voted for Walker (and the many more who support him, but didn't vote). Their voice is worthless?
Not everyone can leave work and protest. I suppose 10-20M Union supporters are more important and more Democratic then the people of Wisconsin who did their civic duty and voted for these Republicans.
Running and hiding basically shows that the Democrats in that state have stunted ethical and reasoning capabilities.
LMAO @ you guys giving this any intellectual credence. As if this is something other than how they operate.
Hmm...let's see... exporting Hillary Clinton to NY and running her for office before she'd ever put in a day of living time there, ACORNing and liberal idiot teenagering an affirmative action president into the White House, p.o. boxing said candidate's Chief of Staff to city he doesn't live/candidate's back yard of favors and getting him elected Mayor...should we go into actual details? or perhaps back to when they counted corpses to get Kennedy elected?
I really dislike Obama and most of the shit he tries pushing, but he was elected and unless he was doing something unconstitutional, Republicans would be completely wrong to go into hiding.
The Dems in Wisconsin have basically disenfranchised 1.2MM people. Just because you don't like or agree with something doesn't mean you have the right to run away and hide. Truly shows how in the pocket unions have the Democrats of that state.
In this case, it's really not going to change anything, so they end up looking even more foolish.
Their job is to represent the people who voted for them by voting no. They are just walking all over the representative process to achieve their political ends.
^^^
Get back to your job and vote.
Wow, TheKing swoops in and is wrong, once again. He got 52% and the Dem got 46%. That is a majority. A dominate republican legislature as well as Senator. Republicans took most of the state.
No, being elected doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. But when you had a republican gov. and a majority republican legislature it means republicans can pass what they want. Instead of fighting within reason, Dems have denies the 1.2MM who elected Walker their voice.
Real nice of you to gloss over that. If It is what Dems want, it is cool. If Republican want something, flee the state an obstruct the government. Total sense.
It's like you didn't even read what I wrote. My point wasn't "Dems are awesome, Republicans suck!" If you read what I posted and believe that, then there is no point in going back and forth with you. People like you (and your counterparts of extremism on the left) are ruining discourse in this country.
Also, we are not arguing the validity of what Walker wants to do. We are debating elected representatives hiding in another state because they can't stand losing.
Honestly, this isn't much different from filibustering anything and everything put forth by the Democratic congress. Oh wait, except the Republicans literally filibustered anything and everything. Pulling BS like putting holds on misc. judicial nominees (not supreme court, mind you) for literally no reason other than Obama nominated them. Wow, they lost in 2006 and 2008 in spectacular fashion, but I'm sure what they did for those years was truly noble.
Beyond that, my whole fucking point is that you can't argue from the perspective of the Democrats being cowards while cheerleading bullshit like the filibuster of anything and everything. And you can't say that the 1.2 million people that voted for Walker are being silenced when A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE AGAINST THIS BILL and ~ half of republicans (who presumably voted for him) are in favor, far from some sweeping majority of people. This is a governor participating in union busting under the guise of balancing a budget, when it's not a budget issue in the first place (they agreed to concessions), and a majority of the people don't agree with this policy. Kind of like when the Republican leadership fought back against the healthcare law saying it went against the will of the people and that "Obama needs to listen to the will of the people." I guess you only feel that way when you don't agree with the laws being pushed.
UFO- in my 1st post I said I would be against republicans doing this
@TheKing - I read your post. My rebuttal had nothing to do with one party wing better. Republicans won the state and they are pushing their agenda. Democrats don't want this to happen so they fled the state. I think this is beyond acceptable practice. You seem to think that anything is acceptable as long as you can justify it.
People like YOU are what's ruining this country.
Try reading for once. Just because your a liberal and don't like what Walker is doing doesn't mean any means of stopping it is acceptable.
What the dems are doing is the same as fleeing the country instead of going to jail.
Whatever dude. I'm not going to even bother with this shit.
Filabustering is a lot different the. Hiding in another state. The republicans did everything possible to stop healthcare, but they didn't cross that line. The people votes for the Dems and the people got what they wanted. By leaving the state they are stopping the democratic institution.
No it isn't. The best example of filibustering was when southern Republican Senators read the phone book to delay the vote for the Civil Rights Act.
Lol good
Now we can get back to the original discussion. Continue along.
I am all for the unions, but here's an article that clearly argues the other side: http://www.npr.org/2011/03/01/134157410/weekly-standard-in-wisconsin-fa…
Filibustering isn't quite the same as running away but I was not amused about all the republican bullshit filibustering that went on for the last few years. It, like this ridiculous running away to deny quorum loophole, has no place in our political system and needs to go.
Good job cartman! Sb for you
Correct me if I am wrong, but didnt the Founding Fathers purposely wantfillibustering, etc because they believed a government that takes forever to get shit done is way better then a government that pushes through bs after bs? It was purposely set up so that the government takes forever to get anything done.
You're exactly right. The point of structing the legislative branch this way was to prevent them from ramming through bad laws without the 'due diligence' that is public debate. If the law is a good idea, it won't matter if it takes a little more time to pass: what's the rush? If it's bogus, no amount of delays will change that. Only the executive gets unilateral decision making power.
You're right in the fact that quorum rules and filibusters were designed with a very good reason in mind. However, in current times, these rules don't actually serve that purpose and are simply just widely abused by BOTH sides. Since they don't work anymore, we need either a replacement (filibuster) or an update (quorum laws).
^^^^
Thats what I thought. For the record, I dont think fleeing the state is what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they structured the legislative branch to slow it down.
Fleeing the state is dereliction of duty.
Everyone's got an opinion, but them's the rules. As for changing the rules of congress, hell, I have no idea. Constitutional Law is not my thing at all.
You can change Senate rules by a simple majority. Of course, whoever happens to be the minority party at the time would probably filibuster the shit out of the anti-filibuster proposal.
Oh did I mention that Milwaukee covers the entire health insurance premium for retirees too??
Nm
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870340860457616429071772495...
Mr. Costrell is professor of education reform and economics at the University of Arkansas.
Where he receives state supported tenure, healthcare, benefits.......
^link seems to be down
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