to all who say banking kids are dumb monkeys

my analyst class has some of the smartest and more importantly extremely extremely motivated people. these people can literally catch on to any new concept in a snap, and their motivation is just mind boggling.

i used to be a topper at my college, and its definitely humbling to work with my analyst class. i dont know if this class is an exception or what, but it I sure get a kick out of working with such intelligent and highly focused people.

so please let the dumb monkey analyst jokes rest. i would even go as far as to say that most people in my class could have done bloody anything they wanted to do and kicked ass in it.

 

Most people who've been in an analyst training class have felt the same way as the original poster. All that raw brilliance can be a bit overwhelming. It's not that every kid is a supergenius, but I'd say one out of ten definitely is.

Of course, they don't start losing IQ points until they get placed into their groups. Get 'em all together a year later and they're blithering, shellshocked idiots by comparison.

 
Mis Ind:
Most people who've been in an analyst training class have felt the same way as the original poster. All that raw brilliance can be a bit overwhelming. It's not that every kid is a supergenius, but I'd say one out of ten definitely is.

Of course, they don't start losing IQ points until they get placed into their groups. Get 'em all together a year later and they're blithering, shellshocked idiots by comparison.

nah, smart sure, outstanding...i've been in better company in my life.

 
Jimbo:
Mis Ind:
Most people who've been in an analyst training class have felt the same way as the original poster. All that raw brilliance can be a bit overwhelming. It's not that every kid is a supergenius, but I'd say one out of ten definitely is.

Of course, they don't start losing IQ points until they get placed into their groups. Get 'em all together a year later and they're blithering, shellshocked idiots by comparison.

nah, smart sure, outstanding...i've been in better company in my life.

Agree - supergenius is seriosuly pushing it. But then again, there is much madness in genius, and you do have to be barking mad to join, so the statement may not be that far off the mark :)

"Living the dream 24/7 on http://theallnighter.blogspot.com"

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ghosht:
my analyst class has some of the smartest and more importantly extremely extremely motivated people. these people can literally catch on to any new concept in a snap, and their motivation is just mind boggling.

i used to be a topper at my college, and its definitely humbling to work with my analyst class. i dont know if this class is an exception or what, but it I sure get a kick out of working with such intelligent and highly focused people.

so please let the dumb monkey analyst jokes rest. i would even go as far as to say that most people in my class could have done bloody anything they wanted to do and kicked ass in it.

@ ghosht - ok, they could have done anything they wanted, but the point is that they DIDNT - and that shows some really poor judgement.

But then again, don't listen to us bitter i-banking monkeys. Enjoy the company of the best and brightest :)

"Living the dream 24/7 on http://theallnighter.blogspot.com"

____________________________________________________________ "LIVING THE DREAM 24/7 ON http://THEALLNIGHTER.BLOGSPOT.COM" ____________________________________________________________
 

Your statement above is rather paradoxical. All incoming analysts vie for the respect of their superiors but it is often squelched by such statements such as "i would even go as far as to say that most people in my class could have done bloody anything they wanted to do and kicked ass in it."...

As is the case with every incoming analyst, understand that this motivation/drive you speak of is often interepreted as arrogance. Your intelligence, overshadowed by your lack of common sense and as a result, your above defense subsequently relegates your garrison of youthful dedication, to a continued testament of "newbie" immaturity...

A word of advice from a former analyst. Stop asking/demonstrating/demanding/whining etc. for respect to be given. As appropriated by the age old adage, that my friend, is earned. Understand what it means to learn humility and "social intelligence" as a former MD once told me, and then your banking acumen will be held in high regard second only to the quality of your character.

"Cut the burger into thirds, place it on the fries, roll one up homey..." - Epic Meal Time
 

Agree about the best and the brightest, the smartest people I know never considered banking. If anyone in this biz is a super genius, I don't think the work has the potential to bring that genius out of them because the work is not challenging, but rather just time consuming. I would say that in the banking industry trading is the field that makes intelligence shine through.

 

I disagree. I would not categorize any of the people I know in banking as brilliant. I would describe a lot of them as top 20% people who are competent, goal-oriented and extremely competitive. These are good attributes to have but they don't make these people exceptional. I don't know any quants or rocket-science traders but I would imagine they could be brilliant.

 

20%? After spending a day or two with a corporate client, it seems like 1%. And to think, those people are probably smarter than the average person. Jeeze.

Not to say bankers are rocket scientists, but I think we all have a tendency to forget how high (read: low) the level of intelligence of most people is.

Apologies for bad grammar. Rough sleeping week.

 
altfp:
20%? After spending a day or two with a corporate client, it seems like 1%. And to think, those people are probably smarter than the average person. Jeeze.

Not to say bankers are rocket scientists, but I think we all have a tendency to forget how high (read: low) the level of intelligence of most people is.

Apologies for bad grammar. Rough sleeping week.

That's true to a certain extent, but there are corporate clients and corporate clients. And some (and I mean some, by no means all ) of the more refined ones, who have done a few deals in their time, can give an i-banker a run for his money any day.

"Living the dream 24/7 on http://theallnighter.blogspot.com"

____________________________________________________________ "LIVING THE DREAM 24/7 ON http://THEALLNIGHTER.BLOGSPOT.COM" ____________________________________________________________
 

I-banking analysts are the Fred Corleone's of the world- they do the menial tasks until they prove capable of doing otherwise.

"I can handle things! I'm smart! Not like everybody says... like dumb... I'm smart and I want respect!"

 
Best Response
ghosht:
my analyst class has some of the smartest and more importantly extremely extremely motivated people. these people can literally catch on to any new concept in a snap, and their motivation is just mind boggling.

i used to be a topper at my college, and its definitely humbling to work with my analyst class. i dont know if this class is an exception or what, but it I sure get a kick out of working with such intelligent and highly focused people.

so please let the dumb monkey analyst jokes rest. i would even go as far as to say that most people in my class could have done bloody anything they wanted to do and kicked ass in it.

Interesting that you use the word "topper" -- it's often used by Indians at Indian colleges to described their class rank and stuff. The word "topper" is basically never used in Western universities. Some of the international students used it in my school. Hmm...

Don't get too haughty. I did fairly well at my target and I have no illusions of being among the "best and brightest". Most of the kids who went into corporate life were quite smart, but I wouldn't say they could've done "anything they wanted!". They were certainly above average, but hardly the geniuses who make them out to be.

Like I've said before, the best and brightest I knew went on to top grad schools and med schools. Personal experience..

 

im not claiming to be brilliant myself at all, if you read the post.....im just amazed by the other fellow analysts. i expected them to be smart and focused, but they are ..well..smarter and extremely focused....

i just meant that in my school, which is a top liberal arts school, i was the smart kid who people would ask questions and shit when they had problems(i dont mean this in an arrogant way at all)...but here its like everyones either equal or better than me....so a little overwhelming compared to school.

*and yes im an international kid *yes i went to a liberal arts school (to those ridiculing a liberal arts education, try getting into banking first and then we'll talk)

so im not trying to be arrogant, if anything it has been a humbling experience working with my fellow analysts.... but then again as Ind says, we'll see in one year.

 
ghosht:
to those ridiculing a liberal arts education, try getting into banking first and then we'll talk

You need to seriously get your ego in check. ibanking analyst does not = champion of the world. Seriously, at a junior level, being humble and lying low and just doing the job is highly appreciated. If any of your associates/VPs detect even the slightest arrogance (i.e. talking back to a superior, dissing other professions, making fun of non-top 20 universities), the whole organization will turn against you.

ibanking analysts hardly add any value to the overall firm. You are just a processer, an intellingent processor who has an ounce of common sense, but a processor nevertheless. The real value in an ibank comes from the charisma, market knowledge, connections and persuasive capabilities of an MD. Even at the Associate/VP level, ibankers really don't know shit.

From my university (and this is purely personal experience), a lot of desperate students went the ibanking route because they knew they couldn't get into a good graduate program. ibanking is not the end of the world, if it was, there wouldn't be such a ridiculously high turnover.

 

you're overestimating their intelligence. Granted, most kids in Banking are far above average, but we give ourselves too much credit for a pretty mechanical job.

 

pure IQ, aptitude, the science guys in general will win.

the intelligence of sitting and thinking 'how can i make as much cash as i can, as early as possible' corporate guys take it all day.

 

I agree with Jimbo, it just seems like different personalities/mind sets. I have a lot of friends and family members that are hard science people who are in research positions or in the medical field and they seem just a notch above in regards to pure IQ. But they never really think about making money or how they can apply their intelligence to make bank.

In summary, they sit and think about how they can solve a problem just because it interests them from an academic point of view, whereas I sit and think about how I can make bank. Do I have friends and family who would probably outscore me on an IQ test? Yes. But will they make more money than me? Most likely not.

 

mrcanuck - at my school (this is from personal experience as well) people who don't feel like having their parents pay for more school go into Ibanking. Also kids who have student loans. And kids who want to start working instead of studying more.

You are kidding yourself if you think someone with an offer for a top bank would turn it down if they got into a decent grad school...not everyone wants to have their parents pay tuition for them while they sit around in a classroom, rather than going out and making money and being independent. This applies to anyone pursuing professional work instead of academics after graduating from college.

A prospective banker at a top school could switch from Econ to Bio...its not as if Bio is a completely different world, it just requires more bitch studying and more nights not out partying. And more studying for GRE's or MCATs or whatever.

For every genius science researcher who makes a major discovery, theres an MD or uber-quant trader. For every person who has a great tech start-up, there's a talented hedge fund manager.

If you are going to make fun of 1st year analysts, compare them to 1st year med students, or 1st year grad students who live in a student dorm despite being 22.

 
ThoughtMan:
For every genius science researcher who makes a major discovery, theres an MD or uber-quant trader. For every person who has a great tech start-up, there's a talented hedge fund manager.

So neither you nor I have enough data on the above argument, so let's just drop it since we will never come up with a good answer.

I'm not making fun of ibanking analysts. As a analyst (or better, monkey) myself, all I'm saying is that people on this board have a dangerously optimistic view of what it means to work in corporate finance. Besides doing industry research, zoning out on conference calls, making pitchbooks and doing some financial modelling there is nothing else to this job. No creativity, no imagination, no 'out of the box thinking', no thinking period. Just plain number crunching.

I don't doubt that many don't have the $$$ to continue into grad school. But you have to realize that people like us who are itching to be in ibanking are a subset of the population. Many do want to change the world, make it a better place, become doctors and save lives, become lawyers and fight for justice, invent paradigm-breaking inventions, etc. ibanking, though, is strictly about money and nothing more. There is nothing creative about this job...that's all I was trying to get across.

Believing (especially as an analyst monkey), that you are the most amazing human being in the world because you cracked into ibanking is very very very dangerous. We are not that amazing. I'm not making fun of ibankers, I'm just being very realistic.

 
mrcanuck:
I don't doubt that many don't have the $$$ to continue into grad school. But you have to realize that people like us who are itching to be in ibanking are a subset of the population. Many do want to change the world, make it a better place, become doctors and save lives, become lawyers and fight for justice, invent paradigm-breaking inventions, etc. ibanking, though, is strictly about money and nothing more. There is nothing creative about this job...that's all I was trying to get across.

You're both jaded and idealistic mr. canuck. You seem to hate banking, and should probably get out before you end up kiling yourself.

Fact: banking isn't particularly creative, at any level. Not even group heads require startling levels of insight or market knowledge- advancement is a function of hard work, relationships, and luck.

Fact: lawyers=justice? doctors= lifesaving? don't kid yourself. 99.9% of the kids who want these jobs want them for the money and prestige, just like ibankers. Yes, the doctors will save lives, but in a way its almost incidental to their true purpose (at least when they start out, I think many of them actually get mellowed out by the experience of actually practicing). Lawyers, ha, they'll always be prestige-whoring and money grubbing for the most part. the only difference between them and us is that we don't have an easy tagline like 'justice' to justify our existence- most people don't understand 'I help sustain productivity and ultimately create a better life for all by ensuring the efficient allocation of capital'. They just don't.

Fact: a lot of your vaunted scinece people aren't particularly creative either. They use rote memorization of facts and processes. A lot of them (especially engineers) will end up doing work only marginally more interesting than excel spreadsheets. they get out earlier. we get more money.

Fact: life sucks unless you have balls- enough balls to take the safe path and not go into a secure profession like ibanking. professions that require creativity are RISKY because YOU MIGHT NOT BE CREATIVE ENOUGH- YOUR IDEAS MIGHT NOT WORK. If you can handle that, go into entertainment, play poker, or become a standup comedian. sucks when you fail. Feels incredible when you succeed.

 

Just to correct the record, those that go to top doctoral programs in non-professional areas like computer science or biology receive rather substantial stipends and do not pay tuition, so they are no incurring debt to continue in their studies. Now I could understand the argument that someone needs to payoff debt, but one is not necessarily going into more debt to continue.

Also, I thought this discussion was also about corporate finance. "Uber-quant traders" are pretty insane. Look at the people Renn Tech hires. Interestingly though, a lot of the people there get bored after making it and return to academia.

 

ratul - in order for most people to become a banker, you need a 3.7+ GPA, high SATs to get into a top college...strong EC's maybe. I think that makes them intelligent (aside from ones who get in through connects.) Maybe they get dumber.

Mrcanuck, your perspective is probably more valuable than mine. I'm an SA in research. I just don't like the holier-than-thou attitudes pre-meds have (and science kids in general).

Mr. Bubba, yes, top doctoral programs do offer stipends, scholarships, and grants. They don't have to pay tuition and get covered by their parents, like I mentioned.

However, what you are doing is comparing the Very Best scientific research minds to the average I-banking 1st year. That is not an accurate comparison. What you should be doing is comparing the average 1st year analyst to the average student pursuing scientific research in grad school - these kids do not receive fancy grants or anything.

 

This kid is in for a rude awakening. He obviously neglected to take into account the fact that people on the board believe that banking turns you into a drone. As everyone has said, lower level banking work is not going to involve high-level understanding of any advanced financial concepts. While this dude may be in training right now (and si really impressed with his and other abilities to master what comes down to being the very basics of finance and accounting), talk to him in a year and if he still feels the same way; he's got to suffer from just the kind of delusion that it takes to be a great junior banker, or he will have alienated himself from everyone through thinly veiled arrogance.

I would have to agree; getting into med-school, a very good PhD program, or a top 10 law school would be much more difficult than getting into banking as far as sheer intelligence is concerned and than being a junior banker.

 

EBITDA - no, I realize that Corp. Finance turns you into a drone. Too many experienced analysts on this forum have given their thoughts for me to think otherwise.

However, I'm arguing a different point. I'm just saying before the drone-transformation, the average kid going into banking isn't less intelligent than the average kid pursuing science (ie the average kid at my school doing a summer internship in Manhattan isn't less intelligent than the average kid shadowing a doctor, or doing research on campus, etc.)

 

to add to my point...the only reason people confuse quantitative science-and mathishness for intelligence is because everyone is risk averse - the smart people tend to rigorously study math and scinece because its a lot easier to make a profession of it than..say...literature. money determines the allocation of talent across different parts of the economy.

 

you're arguing that superiors should give you respect from what i read in this post. But if everyone in ibanking are top of their class as you say, so are your superiors. So why should they respect you if they are equally as smart and all came from the same schools? Just a little paradox there.

 

Here is what it actually is. I would say that at the analyst level, there are a lot of very very smart people (every now and then, someone brilliant). However, there are A LOT of dumbasses at the post-MBA level. I have NO RESPECT for a top MBA degree after 1 year of banking. Some of the most incompetent, full-of-themselves idiots I have met come from schools like Chicago MBA, Columbia MBA etc. The problem with business schools is that they look at waaaay too many soft factors. Doing the peacecorp or the military is commendable (I have been in the military, and so have all of my male relatives) but doesn't mean you are smart.

Top law school grad >>> top MBA grad because they were accepted purely on merit. Overall, banking has more intelligent people than other industries ,on average, but there are a LOT of very very very very very average people in it as well.

 

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