Prejudice against women?

Is there prejudice against women in finance interviews? I see very few women that interview to begin with and even less get offers after second round or superdays. do you think there is a bias here against women or in general there is just less qualified females, which I don't think is true.

 

I have a female friend who already has 4 BB offers and more offers to come. She got second-rounds for every single interview she had. So, no, I don't think there is any prejudice. It might just be that a less number of females apply to IBD/S&T/PE/HF jobs.

-------------------------------------------------- "Whenever I'm about to do something, I think, 'Would an idiot do that?' And if they would, I do NOT do that thing." -Dwight Schrute, "The Office"-
 

There might be a bias, but I think you see so few women in finance because it tends to be something that not a lot of women look to go into. In my experience I have found that in my intro finance class it was 50/50, but as I progressed there would be fewer and fewer women. I am taking grad level classes now and it is 75-80% men.

 

Same deal in engineering.

I think we have a bit of an assumption here that the reason that we don't have 50% men/50% women in engineering has to do with the employers' decision. Is it possible that women can do the job just as well as men, but they just prefer to do a different job? If that's the case, I don't think there's anything here that needs correcting. The aggregate women and aggregate man may have just as many opportunities, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll prefer the same ones.

 

the bias is in your favor ...yeah either the girl is really smart or really hott (okay attractive for a finance chick or even a little slutty)

every once a while you hit the trifecta..

------------ I'm making it up as I go along.
 

if anything, i think there may be a bias for women in IB now. Becuase there arent that many women in IB, people are looking to hire more. I personally know quite a few women that got the best offers in my class and they even admit that if ur a girl you prolly have a better chance of getting a finance job becuase there are so few of them in finance currently

 

i have found it more difficult to 'connect' with my interviewer when he is male, especially at the MD level. however, when I interview with women it is much easier. I am guessing that males have it easier during interviews for this reason alone.

Less women are interested in finance, during my last superday at a BB out of 20 ppl 2 were girls, not uncommon.

 
flutterby:
i have found it more difficult to 'connect' with my interviewer when he is male, especially at the MD level. however, when I interview with women it is much easier. I am guessing that males have it easier during interviews for this reason alone.

Less women are interested in finance, during my last superday at a BB out of 20 ppl 2 were girls, not uncommon.

I have the opposite , I interview MUCH better with men, it seems to me men go easier on me and ask more fit whereas women tend to want to grill me to the core. I think it a competitive thing.

 
flutterby:
i have found it more difficult to 'connect' with my interviewer when he is male, especially at the MD level. however, when I interview with women it is much easier. I am guessing that males have it easier during interviews for this reason alone.

Less women are interested in finance, during my last superday at a BB out of 20 ppl 2 were girls, not uncommon.

I have the opposite , I interview MUCH better with men, it seems to me men go easier on me and ask more fit whereas women tend to want to grill me to the core. I think it a competitive thing.

 

My grad finance class was ~30% women, but my undergrad marketing class ~80% women. However, the women who stuck it out and went for IBD interviews always had a leg up. Diversity or something...

Flutterby - I felt in my IBD interviews, women interviewers ALWAYS over compensated and were "hard asses." My worst interviews were with women.

 

ihatetaxes, I think flutterby is a girl and therefore probably connected more with female MDs. I've heard the same complaint from many guys that female MDs tend to be hardasses. I think they tend to go easier on girls because they want to present themselves as good standard bearers (feminine yet successful) which encourage more females to work finance.

As for women in finance, I think it's not more difficult to get in, unless you're overweight or really ugly. However, getting promoted is tougher. Senior management is mostly male in banking because most CEO's of companies are male, and even though it's against company policy at many banks, some clients are still won in strip clubs and bars, places that women don't really fit in, unless it's to march around without naked.

 

Many women don't go into ibanking bc they care more about family life and having kids and with banking hours they can't have that. Men don't care as much about establishing a family at least not till later so it doesn't bother them.

Also ihatetaxes, I hate interviewing with women! I feel like they give me a hard time just because I am a male and they're taking out their anger at me because they feel discriminated as women. Tables have turned

 

Do you think this bias against women will ever change? Do women currently hold any top manager and executive positions? I don't see the point of working so hard if I will always be discriminated against and passed up for promotions and bonuses.

 

Personally, I think the only time a girl feels discriminated against is when they let themselves get in that mindset. I never once felt that way when going through the recruitment process....

 
pubfinance13:
Personally, I think the only time a girl feels discriminated against is when they let themselves get in that mindset. I never once felt that way when going through the recruitment process....

Totally agree. If you're good no one cares if you're male or female. The issue with women is that once children and family pressures come in early-mid 30s, it becomes really difficult to keep up with men, who presumably don't have families yet or have married a woman with a less demanding career. But at the start of your career honestly I've not seen any discrimination against women at all.

 

This guy has some really good points. Liberals hate facts. They'd rather believe they are changing the world with "civil" equality laws which contradict private property laws to make themselves believe they are saints. Even when there is a legitimate issue such as gay discrimination, they would rather have the government do a half-assed job of "solving" the issue than letting the market actually fix the problem properly.

 

When someone try 2 find work, it just so offense to say "oh hey, you a bish? then go wash the dish" Just look at my girl Tyra, she a 5 star bish, own show, fashion mogul, part time HBS certificate in strategery. It's the 2000th century, bishes can do stuff now.

 
swagon:
When someone try 2 find work, it just so offense to say "oh hey, you a bish? then go wash the dish" Just look at my girl Tyra, she a 5 star bish, own show, fashion mogul, part time HBS certificate in strategery. It's the 2000th century, bishes can do stuff now.

lol

 

Finally, now I can make Feminists to shut up. I absolutely hate that "every one dollar a man earns, woman makes 75 cents" argument. Now that argument can finally come to rest. Please Feminists, let's move on the next issue to argue.

"I am the hero of the story. I don't need to be saved."
 
Best Response

He nailed it! Yes, it is women's fault.

They chose to be social workers and day carers and glitter makers and unicorn feeder, of course they are getting paid less. I did however find out that a male analyst who is on "my level" and in the same LOB is making about 7K more, so I went to my sector head and demanded more money. It worked.

If you think you are making less, say something about it, if you just like to talk about how victimized and discriminated upon you are, go feed some unicorns.

I may not be on the Jedi Council, but I sure am great with the Force. See my WSO blog posts
 
Disincentivy:
He nailed it! Yes, it is women's fault.

They chose to be social workers and day carers and glitter makers and unicorn feeder, of course they are getting paid less. I did however find out that a male analyst who is on "my level" and in the same LOB is making about 7K more, so I went to my sector head and demanded more money. It worked.

If you think you are making less, say something about it, if you just like to talk about how victimized and discriminated upon you are, go feed some unicorns.

+SB. Thank you. You are my she-ro, a female hero. Please talk your senses into these women in NYC. T.T

"I am the hero of the story. I don't need to be saved."
 

I'm getting a little annoyed with the total lack of understanding or disregard shown for pretty simple social issues. But here's my take:

Disincentivy:
I did however find out that a male analyst who is on "my level" and in the same LOB is making about 7K more, so I went to my sector head and demanded more money. It worked.
1. Baller. Impressive. I like you. You DID something about your situation. Women need to learn from you.
  1. I know another woman who did the same thing and they canned her a month later for an 'unrelated' issue. It's fucked up but finance is still very much an old boy's club. That club excludes me, so I have no problem trashing the lousy system....or taking advantage of this inbred clusterfuck. These people aren't as smart as they think they are: fight back or move on, but ladies please, don't be a victim. If I'm missing something on this point, inform me.....

  2. Try doing this in a 'softer' industry with less standardized paygrades and that's when this becomes an issue. True story: I'm management at one of my side jobs. I and another dude were being paid 50% more than a woman for doing the exact same job and I didn't even know. The other guy found out and went to the ownership and demanded they make it right, and they grudgingly did. Dudes need to be honest and treat women right. Forget this juvenile 'nice guy' v ' bad boy' bullshit....Grow the hell up. There are good guys and bad guys. In America, and in my world, the good guy wins. Be a good guy. Simple as that.

...and for ruthless women who just say whatever the hell they can to get what they want and exploit people: don't take advantage of the good guys. It's wrong. And realistically, in most cases in the workforce we can just throw you under the bus .......so knock it off.

Get busy living
 
In The Flesh:
I have yet to see someone refute an even more basic counterargument: If you can really pay women so much less, why don't firms only hire women to save money?
That's a good point. I guess someone could come back at that and say, "While women are cheaper to hire than men, they aren't qualified with their liberal arts degrees."
 

It really is the women's fault. You can only blame yourself if you prepared for an industry that doesn't pay well. It's shocking to me to see how many of the women from my high school went into humanities, education, nursing & etc. You can't complain about the wages when it's normal for that industry.

It's almost like they are asking to be paid for being a mom...

 

I decided to take some heat and post these. I have always thought that there is something wrong with our society on how men are being treated. I wasn't able to articulate it very well until I see these.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/vp8tToFv-bA

http://www.youtube.com/embed/y5OdQGbVNa4

http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZPHYPHf0PfE

"I am the hero of the story. I don't need to be saved."
 

the crux of all of this is that people are superficial and dont dig deeper into these issues.

Women are less competitive in general, hence they dont reach the top jobs as often and hence they earn less (esp. since income distribution is heavily skewed towards the top jobs).

Secondly women from an incentive PoV do not need as much money as men, as they can use men for money. Its just simple incentive, and women respond to it, just like every rational player would.

Thirdly, women have significant sexual power over men, which they can and do use to make up over what liberals see as disadvantages, yet they never acknowledge this advantage (altough this point is getting quite philosophical and controversial, lets just stick to the first two.)

 

Well, you just simply don't understand the term discrimination.

When your choices (or in this case women's )are limited/hindered by society, then you are discriminated because you don't exercise the exact same rights and have the same possibilities as the others, even if it is due to cultural constructions. You can argue that each individual can chose what to do and ignore expectations, but it's not realistic in the majority of the cases.

Maybe in the US it is harder to see, even if it is there, because there seems to be plenty of opportunities to study for both men and women. But visit other countries and you will see what this is all about. It is too easy to simplify it to "girls want to have babies so they make poor choices".

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it" - Voltaire
 

If you factor in all the coupons women get from their magazines, they get paid $2 for every $1 a man earn.

PS: This was a joke.

CNBC sucks "This financial crisis is worse than a divorce. I've lost all my money, but the wife is still here." - Client after getting blown up
 

As mentioned above, people like cookie cutter answers and rhetoric. You could sit someone down and try and calmly explain things and they would completely ignore it because it doesn't fit the narrative they have for life.

I had someone complaining about gas prices and how Obama and big oil where to blame. When you explain to them that it is a function of refining capabilities, made complicated by the dozens of blends each state and/or region require they just tone out.

No sense trying to convince people. Much better to understand yourself and make money off their ignorance.

 

Throughout the course of evolution men and women have adapted different roles so they can effectively do things and survive. For example, men would hunt and women would stay home knit/cook/take care of baby. Nowadays in modern society, femenists demand the recoqition of equal status and capabilities as men and I agree with that---women are just as capable, if not more.

But we have to realize that in during the evolution because men/women have been traditionally been doing things for such a long time, the majority get better faster at what they had been doing for a long time and would require more work to transit to another. For example, physically men are stronger than women. If you look at any Olympic records, the men for the most part have it better. Although we accept the femenists' demands for respect and equality, we have to acknowledge our differences too.

If women are completely treated the same as men, then some things will have to change. If you hear a guy punch a guy, its a normal fist fight. But if you hear a guy punch a girl, then the guy will get a hell of a lot worse attitude from others. Guys are expected to hold the door for the girls, pay for meal (most of the time), and be chivalrous to women. But if the roles of expectations are reversed, the girl will be saying "Why do you expect me to hold door for you, you are a guy".

Sorry for not staying exactly on the topic of gender equality at work place, I just thought I should share my $.02 on this issue. Femenisms seems to me emphasize too much on being equal(such as workplace, which they deserve if they have same capabilities) but at the same time, continuing to expect men to treat them "unequally" as women if the condition favors them(paying for dinner etc).

 
Mr.Saxman:
Throughout the course of evolution men and women have adapted different roles so they can effectively do things and survive. For example, men would hunt and women would stay home knit/cook/take care of baby. Nowadays in modern society, femenists demand the recoqition of equal status and capabilities as men and I agree with that---women are just as capable, if not more.

But we have to realize that in during the evolution because men/women have been traditionally been doing things for such a long time, the majority get better faster at what they had been doing for a long time and would require more work to transit to another. For example, physically men are stronger than women. If you look at any Olympic records, the men for EVERY SINGLE ONE. Although we accept the femenists' demands for respect and equality, we have to acknowledge our differences too.

If women are completely treated the same as men, then some things will have to change. If you hear a guy punch a guy, its a normal fist fight. But if you hear a guy punch a girl, then the guy will get a hell of a lot worse attitude from others. Guys are expected to hold the door for the girls, pay for meal (most of the time), and be chivalrous to women. But if the roles of expectations are reversed, the girl will be saying "Why do you expect me to hold door for you, you are a guy".

Sorry for not staying exactly on the topic of gender equality at work place, I just thought I should share my $.02 on this issue. Femenisms seems to me emphasize too much on being equal(such as workplace, which they deserve if they have same capabilities) but at the same time, continuing to expect men to treat them "unequally" as women if the condition favors them(paying for dinner etc).

Corrected an otherwise well written post.

 

I assume that this discussion focus on the IB market for women in the U.S. In (northern) Europe, at least from my experience, it's reversed. If you're an ambitious woman enrolled in a business program at a decent university then you will be able to land very prestigious internships. This goes for both the domestic market and IB placements in London. I've seen internship adds where the investment bank states "we encourage females to apply", which is sort of saying "we want a woman".

But then again, I live in the world's most "gender aware" country so we might be an exception.

 

i thought someone would make that comment- sometimes being a female works in your favor. i don't really buy it. ok, maybe if you're gorgeous the gender card will work in your favor. but other than that, i think you're a little screwed.

 

Definitely wished I had a vagina during recruiting. I know some girls that had no business getting offers, but I can't necessarily blame the interviewers. After spending 80+ hours working with nothing but dudes, and interviewing 15 dudes in a row, I can understand why any halfway attractive female would already have a leg up. It's important to distinguish yourself during recruiting, so considering the finance industry is filled with men, you've already done that just by being female.

Agree with englishtofee, I could see it becoming a problem at the senior level. Some [ignorant] men may not take you seriously, particularly if you work at Deutsche.

http://www.businessinsider.com/josef-ackermann-women-colorful-prettier-…

 

Lets put it this way: No female contestant has ever won Wipeout America. You do the maths.....

"After you work on Wall Street it’s a choice, would you rather work at McDonalds or on the sell-side? I would choose McDonalds over the sell-side.” - David Tepper
 

bitch shut the fuck up. get back in the kitchen and make me an eggo.

In other news.... Osama has been killed.

It does, but it is what you make of it.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee WSO is not your personal search function.
 
blackfinancier:
bitch shut the fuck up. get back in the kitchen and make me an eggo.

In other news.... Osama has been killed.

It does, but it is what you make of it.

awkward statement.. But i think you guys are missing her point in that it works for prettier women vs other ladies.

I think it can work positively for you but maybe you have to work on portraying a specific image?

Beast
 

Last I hear, there's still gender discrimination in childbirth and emotional expression and support too. Apparently, women also dominate Friday night bartending at trendy beach places....men just can't compete with bikini tops and belly shots. Man, this world we live in, it's SOO unfair.

Get busy living
 

If you're hot, then that can only work for you, but either way it comes down to whether or not you're qualified. If you're less than drop dead gorgeous, don't worry: just know your shit and have a great personality. There is discrimination, but it's also a function of who's doing the hiring: One of the MDs here is a woman, and needless to say, my group is 70% women, which probably explains why I'm taking my time to just out of here.

Also, you need to be honest with yourself: is your resume strong enough?

Get busy living
 

bleeve21,

You need to give us more information. Over a 3 month period, how many new positions (high quality) are you applying for, and what is your percentage post those applications that you are getting call backs/interviews? Give an average/percentage. Again, the more detail the better.

"Cut the burger into thirds, place it on the fries, roll one up homey..." - Epic Meal Time
 

maybe around 40 per month, high quality only. in terms of hearing back, i've found it varies drastically by time of year. lately, not as many. in january, much more success- maybe 1/8 i heard back. nowadays (last month), more like 1/15.

 
bleeve21:
maybe around 40 per month, high quality only. in terms of hearing back, i've found it varies drastically by time of year. lately, not as many. in january, much more success- maybe 1/8 i heard back. nowadays (last month), more like 1/15.

Bleeve,

If you are applying to 40 high quality jobs on average per month, that is part of your problem. Projected over a six month period, that is an absurd amount. A couple of things...

1) Most of the jobs you are applying for are probably being managed by a recruiter. I would imagine that if you are applying to 35+ "high quality" jobs per month, you are diluting your brand. Chances are, your resume' has been moved around more times than a bong at a frat party. It hurts your marketability among recruiters/posts/ etc.

2) Hone your focus and follow up with the contact that you submit your resume/cover letter to. Again, if you are counting website submissions, THESE DO NOT COUNT. Focus on recruiters/direct contacts.

3) Again, if you've sent your info out that many times, something must be off. PM me if you want some more direct feedback. I've been in your situation before and perhaps I can help.

"Cut the burger into thirds, place it on the fries, roll one up homey..." - Epic Meal Time
 

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Dolor esse incidunt rerum officiis sed. Soluta temporibus voluptate eum consequuntur qui hic. In ducimus perferendis reiciendis rerum possimus. Magni dolorem ab porro quae a a neque aut.

 

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"Cut the burger into thirds, place it on the fries, roll one up homey..." - Epic Meal Time

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