Engineering Vs Finance for Ibanking
K so I've been reading a lot of stuff saying that some IB firms and MBA programs prefer engineering over finance majors and that a lot of CEOs have engineering degrees. It's getting to the point where it seems like engineering/applied mathematics would be better to study than finance for finance/business jobs...
I'll more than likely be going to the University of Michigan next year and then trying to get into Ross, but with the messages conveyed by a bunch of threads here, it seems like it would be better to go the the College of Engineering.
To be honest, I think I would do better with focuses in accounting/finance than to major in engineering, but I do think that I would be decent with engineering. When I was in high school my last class I took (honors pre-calc) was with the worst (but maybe smartest) teacher in the whole fucking school. I got a C+ without trying too hard and [removed]. I did try though, and a C+ was underachieving bullshit in my eyes so it left me with really really low confidence in my mathematical abilities. I recently took a College Algebra class that covered everything that I learned in the pre-calc class and picked up all of that stuff pretty easily however. So I'm thinking that I may be better with math than I thought...
My main issue is: I'm pretty sure I want to major in accounting/finance, but I don't know if I should minor in economics (I'm doing good in these classes and thoroughly enjoy them) or applied mathematics... or if I should just go to the CoE. Whether I would want to get a quant job vs normal IB job is undetermined at the moment, but I don't want to completely fuck myself over from getting either of these in the future... any suggestions on what I should do? Do you think I accurately portrayed my situation?... I've been drinkin a little so it may come off kinda retarded lol.
Do finance. If you get into the b-school after freshman year and you are committed to ibanking, then you will get a job in ibanking. Also, if you want to be a CEO, perhaps ibanking isn't the best path to begin your career.
Just a side note, is pre-calc really your honors math class? If in Mich, what highschool do you attend?
CEO isn't what I'm aiming for, I brought it up cause it's such a high ranking job... what about MDs or other high ranking people working for IBs, PE, or HFs? Do they have finance backgrounds or mostly engineering?
I went to Gabriel Richard in Riverview... the honors pre-calc was my honors math class my junior year. I could have taken an AP class my senior year (not sure on the title) but decided not to thanks to dumbass bimbo math teacher... she either quit or got fired 2 years after coming to the school. She was an engineer for Ford, she knew what she was talking about, but she was just horrible at explaining it
You got a C+ in high school yet you are considering a MAJOR in math/engineering?
[quote=Anal Analyst]You got a C+ in high school yet you are considering a MAJOR in math/engineering?
]i didn't even take pre calc in highschool and am majoring in it i did get high grades in all math classes though honestly the most prepared math majors i seen started in trig :/
I'm a CS + Math major and I take a lot of the same classes engineering majors take let me tell you what happens they remind me of you
very slowly one by one they get picked off and switch into management they don't do home work and have that i was lazy but i'll try harder in school bc this is college mentality, when the fact is you just can't flip a switch and decide not to be lazy
your in high school with relatively little distractions and have some one to hold your hand what are you gunna be like when you have hot ass fly chicks with thongs hanging out of there asses who sit in the front row and you are getting plastered on Friday/Saturday/Sunday nights with the disputatious xbox 360 in your dorm room? will you say when you get your first bad grade FUCK MAN I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT MFING TEACHER SHE/HE IS SMART BUT NO GOOD AT EXPLAINING IT I KNO SHE IS SMART BC I UNDERSTAND IT SO THAT IS WHY I KNOW SHE IS SMART BUT CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT you can but in the end you will still fail
ill be honest with you if your gunna do engineering you will get bad grades even with curves its just a hard program at any school but you need to learn what you did to fuck up and correct it and not rely on that curve in the future your goal should be to set the curve not hope shit gets curved
my 2c
I never studied/never really gave a shit about math during high school because I desired a different career path at the time... I've understood math fairly easily since then/when I started giving a shit.
Seriously, I studied for 30-45 minutes top for a test... since I've started going back to school I've been studying AT LEAST 3-4 hours per test. It's not that I couldn't understand it, it's that I didn't really want to.
and you can stop being lazy... I have a son now so I really have nothing to do almost every day but to study/watch him. I won't have many distractions considering I stay home pretty much every day lol
edit: you act like I wasn't partying every day of every weekend, like I didn't have a 360 in my room, and there weren't hot bitches in class during high school lol... I was working a job too
what some of you people are failing to grasp with my posts was that I JUST DIDN'T GIVE A SHIT... I asked the mathematical genius in the class if she was any good and he said no. Hell, one day the teacher didn't come, the sub didn't know wtf was going on, and that student taught the class... and he did a 10x better job than the fucking teacher! If you asked her a question about the same topic twice she would start bitching you out. You can't be a good teacher if you're yelling at people for asking questions.
I've done a lot of growing up since high school and to be told that I can't stop being "lazy" is kind of a blanket statement. It's not just about me anymore, it's about my son. I've discovered an interest in math/business/economics that I've never had before and if I had it my way, I would go to school until the day I die. I learned the same stuff in my college algebra class and picked it up easily when I actually gave two shits.
how old r u guy pm me
done
I think I'm just gonna take some more math classes at my current school because the Pell Grant is paying for it, and then basing my future major off of the results...
scottj19x89,
I have lots of friend from Gabriel Richard that went to UD Mercy. Good luck with your classes!
Engineering: The New Finance Degree? (Originally Posted: 09/09/2010)
I'd like to first point out that this article goes along with the post by Midas Mulligan Magoo, Finance is NOT the major for a career in finance? You can find his post here: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/finance-is-not-the-major-for-a-care…
There seems to be a growing trend in the finance community, and that is to hire engineers instead of financiers. It’s not just happening at the entry level, but also in the middle levels as well. When there is demand, supply will be created. High ranking universities such as UC Berkley, Colombia, Imperial College of London, Cambridge, and more, are all offering Master’s in Financial Engineering (MFE). Why are companies looking for engineers instead of financiers? The answers are simple in fact, and they can also provide an insight into what financial institutions are planning for in the future.
As a finance graduate, I like to believe that I am well suited for an array of finance positions in both corporate finance and investments. In essence, I have a Business Degree with an emphasis in Finance; in which I studied Marketing, Management, International Business, and a good amount of Accounting during my college career. Examining an Engineering degree, one is typically in Engineer with an emphasis in Mechanical, Chemical, Civil, or Computing. Around the Engineering degree one must take classes in Chemistry, Physics, Computer Literacy, and a plethora of Mathematical classes. Looking at the two different degrees there is not a clear reason so far, why a financial institution would want an engineer, except maybe for their strong math skills.
Let us dig deeper. In a recent recruitment presentation by a Swaps and Derivatives Dealer from Nordea Bank, he mentioned that more and more of his co-workers had an engineering background instead of a finance background. The Nordea banker noted that these newly hired engineers had many skills that are extremely useful to the bank. He gave a list of the skills they possessed: -- Excellent at Excel: Most engineers work heavily with Excel and similar like applications. -- A ‘start to finish’ mindset: An engineer is said to think twice and design once, the product or solution they create should work perfectly no matter how complex. -- A love for numbers: Comfortable with math and working with large amounts of data in order to track, analyze, configure, organize, and perform trend analysis. -- An engineer is not a financier: Engineers think differently than finance people, which give an organization the ability to have a different perspective and offer different solutions. It is also important to note that a boss can put an engineer in front of a computer and say “WORK”; the engineer is at “home” with his desk and computer screen.
With the uptrend in hiring of engineers for financial institutions, it helps us determine where the banking and finance industry is headed next. Selling is an important aspect of finance, and new products are created every year to be pushed out to the public. Some of these new products are good, and some are very bad. What we do know is that there will be new products created and most of them will be by Financial Engineers. One of the biggest areas of finance is the pension/retirement sector, which is over a trillion dollars in size worldwide. This may be a stretch, but think about retirement like a dam. On one side of the dam you have the build-up of water (savings), and on the other side there is a river/stream (the release of funds to the retiree). An engineer could be the perfect person on to design the proper “dam” for someone or company, so that down to the smallest droplet of water (think dollar) is properly saved, utilized, and released.
So whether or not you are contemplating on which degree to get, Finance or Engineering, think about the future and where you would like to play a role in it. Either way, both degrees are demanding and provide for excellent career opportunities.
Engineers can go into medicine, law, business and even engineering. Its a great career path for those who do not know what they want to do.
Isn't an engineering/math background more appropriate for trading/quant hedge fund work? I'm not sure how being able to make fouriers transform would help someone as an investment banker or a financial analyst at a F500. True, engineering/math majors have stronger problem solving skills, and wall street/consulting firms might have the time/resources to teach people the basics on the job, but for other financial analyst positions, it seems like most of them want finance/accounting majors only from what I've noticed.
It seems to be that the more technology there is in the workplace, the more an engineer could fit in.
Like what was said, the trading/quant is the best fit.
For trading yes. IBD needs people who look nice and can socialize well, as in they don't need people to be super-smart.
Many, many quants and S&T guys have backgrounds in engineering, physics, or the like.
Even to a non quant or S&T position, ie IBD, these are attractive skills, and if combined with the right other skills, could beat out a finance major.
That said, the time spent learning engineering concepts could be better spent networking and learning financial concepts and modelling, the "right" skills for IBD.
Engineering Vs Finance (Originally Posted: 06/21/2012)
This question is for all the previous engineering majors out there.
What was it that made you switch from engineering to finance apart from the money? Did you dislike the work in engineering or were the exit opportunities too limited at the time?
I am a rising junior and have little knowledge of what I actually want to do. I'm in a current staff accounting internship and I am realizing that doing mindless work like this has little interest to me in the future regardless of cash and am trying to figure out what I enjoy. I know that no ones first job regardless of where you start is going to be pitching new strategies to the CEO, but working at a comp for 12 hours a day seems like hell to me.
Anyone who chooses a career based on exit opportunities is a moron frankly. You have one life, enjoy it. Yes you want to earn good money but you can earn good money in most professions, especially engineering. Don't be forced into finance if you don't enjoy it just because of "exit ops". Way too much focus on exit ops on this site.
All the bitches drop their panties for Financial Analysts. #fact
"Anyone who chooses a career based on exit opportunities is a moron frankly... Yes you want to earn good money but you can earn good money in most professions, especially engineering."
This is not really true. Sure Petroleum Engineering you can make money. Otherwise be prepared to travel 40-50% and max out at $150k when you are 50. It is not bad money sure; but hour for hour, flight for flight, and, most importantly, dollar for dollar, I would evaluate the opportunity cost here. Sucks to miss your kids b-days over and over for $120k.
Asatar - really? People are morons to look where they could be in 3, 5, 10 years, or after their "career" in a 2-year analyst program??
I have found that people do engineering because they see a 60-70k starting pay and it does have prestige. They never look to see that Engineers with 15-20 years at Lockheed make $120k all in. If you really enjoy it I would of course do it. But that is not a career you do for the money or exit ops.
Just my $0.02.
The guy clearly doesn't have much interest in doing finance as a career and has no desire to work at a computer for 12 hours a day which even VPs do. I don't think its worth killing yourself for 2 years and then living the next 3-4 in conditions not much better, for a industry he isn't really interested in.
Yes engineers max out lower than financiers, but there is always a price on doing something you enjoy. Varies from person to person of course but I'd rather make $200k/year doing something I love and am interested in that $1m/year doing something I hate.
For people aiming in finance of course exit ops are important, but I still maintain that they are emphasized too much on this site.
I worked at a hedge fund last summer and am the coder for my own start-up this summer. The hedge fund work, to me, was pretty boring. I learned some really interesting stuff and had a lot of time to read a lot of awesome finance news, but sitting around waiting for positions to hit was just...ugh.
On the contrary, doing my own tech start-up is a ton of fun. Obviously there's risk involved, but given that I'm 19, I can fuck up without any ramifications to my family (like losing my house or having my kids starve). At the same time, there are some EXTREMELY boring / tedious parts. Debugging issues can just be mind-numbing when you've been at the same issue for the last 3 days. At the same time, I really enjoy coding so I'm pretty happy with what I'm doing most of the time.
While some people say that they don't like the aspect of how engineering isn't as social as other jobs, allow me to just say that a lot of what I do besides coding is networking with the entrepreneurial community in Philadelphia. It's a ton of fun.
While I can't speak to any exit opportunities yet, I can imagine that it can't be too hard to get into finance after an engineering job when you're young. Hell, Michael Grimes did internships at tech companies before deciding ultimately that he wanted to do banking.
I wish I had studied engineering in college. You really don't need 4 years to learn the skills needed for IB. That's why you see lots of engineers able to transition into finance, but I've never seen a finance guy become an engineer.
You can argue that engineers max out lower than bankers if you decide to be an employee for the rest of your life. But if you go the entrepreneur route, I think bankers max out lower than engineers. You hear about the island Ellison just bought? (yes I know he dropped out of college, but he was still an engineer). Banking salaries are very high, but I think it's harder to become super rich working in finance.
AstonMartin, the thing to remember is that you have just about the same shot at hitting it big in entrepreneurship as you do making partner in finance / law, if not even slimmer. The average entrepreneur is just going to do "meh." I think that they're happy with that, to be honest.
I'm absolutely convinced that people choose to go into finance over engineering out of college not because of the salary. Facebook now pays better than an analyst position - there was a post on WSO about that, if I remember correctly. I'm convinced it's because you really don't have to work that hard in school, given that you're at a target, to break into finance. Nobody's going to say that the average undergrad finance curriculum is more challenging than the average computer science undergrad curriculum. As somebody pursuing both degrees, there's no comparison.
It's really analogous to potential pre-meds who end up doing, like, a psych or sociology degree because it's just easier than doing pre-med.
Should I Switch to Engineering from Finance (kind of long, cliffs at bottom) (Originally Posted: 08/30/2012)
Hi all,
I am a recent grad from a non-target who is interested in value investing and (more recently) fixed income/high yield bond investing or working in product management at a startup. Given that I come from a non-target from a non-finance heavy part of the country, I had EXTREME difficulty finding a job. I sent out countless cold emails, tried to connect with every single alumnus at a half-decent company, expanded to F500 companies/commercial banks (which I know my stats are competitive for, but just never panned out due to a lack of network), etc. but nothing worked out. Luckily, through a temp agency, I've been able to find some back office finance work, but I'm starting to realize that unless I get into the extremely competitive fields I mentioned earlier, I have no interest in doing back office or in-house corporate finance world for the rest of my life.
Given how hard it is for me to find anything in finance and how finance jobs are becoming less and less plentiful in this economy, I'm starting to wonder if maybe I should cut my losses and get another degree. As a kid, I was always really interested in physics/engineering, but I chose finance because I enjoyed it more (plus, while I'm good enough to breeze through 1st year calc, I suck at higher level math) and because I thought I'd be able to do corporate finance if I didn't get into the exact fields I want.
The conclusion of my great essay above, is that I'm wondering if it may be best to cut my losses and try and get a second bachelor's degree in engineering (particularly EE or CS). Engineering is a growing field that will only gain more prominence in my opinion and, even if I don't get the top jobs at Google/Microsoft that most aspire for, it is a bit more intellectually stimulating and challenging than back office finance at some no-name company. Hell, it might even help me with my second goal of project management at a startup.
Therefore I was wondering if anyone has advice for someone in my situation and what they would do? How would I go about doing this as well? Damn, I'm just totally clueless and really need help figuring out my life at this point.
Cliffs: -Recent Non-target grad who had no luck finding a job in areas of finance of interest. -Chose finance over engineering/sciences because I had more interest in it and the backup was to i-banking/consulting was just working in corp fin at a company and climbing up the ladder/being happy. -Currently working in corp fin at a company and realizing I cannot do finance for the rest of my life unless I get into the areas I really enjoy. -Areas of interest shrinking rapidly/getting more competitive, engineering is growing and I have an interest in it prompting me to consider a switch -Considering dropping finance altogether and pursuing a 2nd bachelor in EE or CS -What would you do/should I do it (areas of interest = equity value investing, high yield debt, or product management at a startup) -Help
That might be a good plan. Engineering will definitely work for startup/product management careers. And it might be possible to later move into equity research (maybe not at a BB, but quite possibly for a boutique shop covering an industry you know). It's something I'm considering myself (I'm an engineer interested in investing). With an engineering background you can also do consulting, become an entrepreneur or a VC.
Just keep in mind that studying engineering (especially EE) is not a walk in the park. You don't have to love math, but it's better to initially focus on it, so you can later enjoy the harder EE and CS classes (otherwise you will be trying to understand the math as much as the application).
Good luck!
OP I'll be honest with you this idea is really dumb.
Why not MFE? Master of Financial Engineering. Can you program C++, R, MatLab, Python, VBA (at least 3 of those 5)?
No I can't do any. That's the problem with these finance degrees. I literally learned nothing during my time as an undergrad. Whatever I know came from my own outside reading/EC involvement and my tech skills are non-existent. That's why I figure I might just need to cut my losses and start over. It sucks though because I'm more interested in finance, but it's just so competitive these days.
You mentioned you are interested in startups. Have you tried joining one?
You will start as a grunt, but to be honest being one in a good startup is way more interesting than being a back office grunt, because you will have more freedom to do stuff that's interesting to you.
Yes, finance / business majors are largely bullshit.
I was a finance / business major.
Should I study Engineering or Finance @ non-target. (Originally Posted: 03/25/2013)
Trying to increase my chances little by little to give myself an edge. Right now I am attending University of Washington(non target), and want to possibly break into some form of IB.
Should I major in Finance or Engineering? Essentially this begs the question, GPA or Major, which matters more?
I have a lot of upper division math done already... i.e. past calculus.
You should major in something that interests you.
I don't think I'd be able to make it through comp sci if I wasn't actually interested in it. If you want to get into finance, why not double major with some financial math crap or something like that to show that you have the smarts? Or take the time that you would be using to study for engineering classes and use it to network. Studying engineering just for the sake of it could make you hate the next couple years of your life. Hell, I really like comp sci and I still hate my life just because I'm so busy.
I'm doing Finance major accounting minor, and I'll get my masters in either: financial engineering, mathematical finance, computational finance, or whatever the schools decide to call the exact same thing at different institutions :) It also depends on what you want to do. What type of IB? If it's relationship-based then probably finance + MBA, if it's a quantitative position then you need math, comp-sci, and finance. Generally you get one in undergrad and the other two are covered in your MFE/MFS program. For a real quant job you have to have at least a masters, and a Ph.D if you're looking to get paid for research.
This is pretty much all from the lips of a JP Morgan VP (shh, I know there's just under a million of them) that I had the good fortune to interview.
Hope this helps!
--Patrick
Engineering or finance degree for S&T? (Originally Posted: 04/05/2011)
I'm getting the impression that an engineering is better than a finance degree for S&T. Maybe it's because almost every other recruiter at MIT is for trading, and prop trading firms mostly recruit at engineering schools. Am I right? Why do you think engineers are so popular for S&T recruiters? Quantitative skills? By engineering, I also mean computer science, math, physics etc.
It's correct, the quantitative skills you pick up in programs like that prepare you for playing in today's markets better than a business discipline (finance, accounting, statistics, etc.).
I have always heard the same thing, but why is this. What is it about the day to day work of a trader that makes these skills so necessary? I can understand quick mental mathematics and a good general knowledge of calculus and statistics but why such advanced math, I thought that was needed only for programming gigs?
Traders are more cerebral than bankers. There's a substantial amount of programming involved. Trading processes are highly algorithmic these days. For banking, "You need to know addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division if you're getting fancy."
The movement in trading is away from gut feeling and fundamentals and more towards algos and computer based trading. Having programing skills allows you to adjust the algos quickly when the markets change.
Dude, just major in what you want to. And make sure you beast it and get a high gpa. It's college, have fun... and read the FT (student subscription)
There are a lot of engineers on the desk I'm on (myself included)... If I were you I'd go with engineering just because there are a lot more doors open for you.
If you're at MIT, they're probably not going to have questions regarding your quantitative ability, so I'd say that it doesn't really matter. In my school (a target that is nowhere near the capability of MIT in terms of being quanty) sent econ majors to prop trading to the likes of DRW and SIG. Of course, algorithmic trading requires a pretty focused set of skills that requires even a specific engineering major.
Algorithmic trading is only one kind of trading right? I have a family member in trading at a BB but doesn't know programming and is not out of the ordinary in terms of quantitative ability. Asking because I would like to get into trading but was hoping to do a non-mfin/mfe type program like masters in finance or masters in Applied Economics.
Engineering or Finance? (Originally Posted: 01/13/2013)
Okay so this question has probably been asked many times before, but I need your input on this. I'm going into business no matter what but the thing is I'm not so sure which degree is better in terms of landing a job/overall intelligence for business. I've heard engineering is better because of the quant skill you learn. To be honest I'm looking into becoming an economist as well. I enjoy the knowledge for engineering (plus I have a lot of designs for inventions I'd like to know how to build) and I enjoy many aspects of business(I've been looking into stocks and other sources of income to start up and invest into) . Right now I'm at Kean U and transferring into Rutgers for my second year. They aren't the best schools but I don't have the money for much more and my plan is to master in a more prestigious school. If engineering looks better I'd take that in a heartbeat for the fact that its challenging, but if it doesn't well there's no point for me besides the knowledge.
If you want to become an economist then you should study (and major in) economics. Also, money should not be a limiting factor. Most top 20 schools will meet your demonstrated need.
Why is double majoring not an option? Excel in both fields and you'll have a great shot at pursuing almost anything in "business".
With Rutgers I'd go with engineering- maybe electrical engineering? Spend a few years at Hess or IBM or some other F500 concern that relies heavily on engineering, and then go to B-school.
I'm not an engineer, however one of my friends who goes to Montana State for mechanical engineering says that industrial engineering is the best right now. Said employers love them the most.
If you major in engineering, you can still break into finance if you want to, however there will always be a need for engineers. Also, many people have done what IlliniProgrammer has said.
Do a double major or engineering with a business minor. I studied MechE and finance. I liked engineering better from an academic standpoint, but I felt the career opportunities were better in finance. I feel like I kind of got the best of both worlds, the one issue is that you'll either need to carry a crazy course load or stay for a bonus years, which is what I did.
Engineering + MBA!
I can't believe no one asked, but what do you want to do after college? That should play the largest role in determining what you should major in.
Thanks for feedback everybody its really appreciated. And good questions actually. I never considered double majoring because I've been told time after time that its useless or not worth it. I wouldn't mind doubling up at all and come to think of it that does open a lot more doors especially for starting up a business. And well, at the core of what I want to do from what I've deducted... 1) Mostly keep track and direct a company's growth and finances and report about it say what needs to be done type of work and what not I guess mostly analysis/leading a team along those lines, 2) invent useful devices and gadgets (preferably combat), 3) eventually start investing into other sources of income like commercial buildings/routes/franchises. I essentially just want to hit 100k in salary as soon as possible as an additional factor. I'd be more than happy to meet all 4 of those.
Questions: Besides that though I have a few questions on the strategy of engineer to MBA. What essentially does a company see in that? What type of jobs does that open up?
Concerns: Engineers, from what I've researched go in and out of unemployment and do not get the pay that I really wish to achieve...
Man life is short.
This website is like a throw back to the early twenties... wish we could have those worrying and studying years back.
The recs on here are fine you can get in with both, the bigger question is what is a more efficient use of your time. Personally, life is a game of maximization so would recommend just choosing the more finance related one and then getting internships to make some side scratch and get to investing.
At the end of the day, the most useful thing in your life is this: 1) Time (translation is health), 2) Money.
So hope you sign up for accounting and finance 101 as soon as possible.
I'd say that life in college is about maximizing options and experiences. If you are generally interested in two courses of study, then pursue both. In my opinion efficiency isn't that important as a student because your focus should be on exploring options, not rushing through to find yourself on a course that you may/may not like. I've found that both of my courses of study have contributed to my career, but I personally feel that engineering added more value, even though I've never worked in an engineering role post-college.
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