Engineering Vs Finance for Ibanking

K so I've been reading a lot of stuff saying that some IB firms and MBA programs prefer engineering over finance majors and that a lot of CEOs have engineering degrees. It's getting to the point where it seems like engineering/applied mathematics would be better to study than finance for finance/business jobs...

I'll more than likely be going to the University of Michigan next year and then trying to get into Ross, but with the messages conveyed by a bunch of threads here, it seems like it would be better to go the the College of Engineering.

To be honest, I think I would do better with focuses in accounting/finance than to major in engineering, but I do think that I would be decent with engineering. When I was in high school my last class I took (honors pre-calc) was with the worst (but maybe smartest) teacher in the whole fucking school. I got a C+ without trying too hard and [removed]. I did try though, and a C+ was underachieving bullshit in my eyes so it left me with really really low confidence in my mathematical abilities. I recently took a College Algebra class that covered everything that I learned in the pre-calc class and picked up all of that stuff pretty easily however. So I'm thinking that I may be better with math than I thought...

My main issue is: I'm pretty sure I want to major in accounting/finance, but I don't know if I should minor in economics (I'm doing good in these classes and thoroughly enjoy them) or applied mathematics... or if I should just go to the CoE. Whether I would want to get a quant job vs normal IB job is undetermined at the moment, but I don't want to completely fuck myself over from getting either of these in the future... any suggestions on what I should do? Do you think I accurately portrayed my situation?... I've been drinkin a little so it may come off kinda retarded lol.

 

Do finance. If you get into the b-school after freshman year and you are committed to ibanking, then you will get a job in ibanking. Also, if you want to be a CEO, perhaps ibanking isn't the best path to begin your career.

Just a side note, is pre-calc really your honors math class? If in Mich, what highschool do you attend?

MKballer
 

CEO isn't what I'm aiming for, I brought it up cause it's such a high ranking job... what about MDs or other high ranking people working for IBs, PE, or HFs? Do they have finance backgrounds or mostly engineering?

I went to Gabriel Richard in Riverview... the honors pre-calc was my honors math class my junior year. I could have taken an AP class my senior year (not sure on the title) but decided not to thanks to dumbass bimbo math teacher... she either quit or got fired 2 years after coming to the school. She was an engineer for Ford, she knew what she was talking about, but she was just horrible at explaining it

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough. "There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.
 

[quote=Anal Analyst]You got a C+ in high school yet you are considering a MAJOR in math/engineering?

]

i didn't even take pre calc in highschool and am majoring in it i did get high grades in all math classes though honestly the most prepared math majors i seen started in trig :/

 

I'm a CS + Math major and I take a lot of the same classes engineering majors take let me tell you what happens they remind me of you

very slowly one by one they get picked off and switch into management they don't do home work and have that i was lazy but i'll try harder in school bc this is college mentality, when the fact is you just can't flip a switch and decide not to be lazy

your in high school with relatively little distractions and have some one to hold your hand what are you gunna be like when you have hot ass fly chicks with thongs hanging out of there asses who sit in the front row and you are getting plastered on Friday/Saturday/Sunday nights with the disputatious xbox 360 in your dorm room? will you say when you get your first bad grade FUCK MAN I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT MFING TEACHER SHE/HE IS SMART BUT NO GOOD AT EXPLAINING IT I KNO SHE IS SMART BC I UNDERSTAND IT SO THAT IS WHY I KNOW SHE IS SMART BUT CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT you can but in the end you will still fail

ill be honest with you if your gunna do engineering you will get bad grades even with curves its just a hard program at any school but you need to learn what you did to fuck up and correct it and not rely on that curve in the future your goal should be to set the curve not hope shit gets curved

my 2c

 

I never studied/never really gave a shit about math during high school because I desired a different career path at the time... I've understood math fairly easily since then/when I started giving a shit.

Seriously, I studied for 30-45 minutes top for a test... since I've started going back to school I've been studying AT LEAST 3-4 hours per test. It's not that I couldn't understand it, it's that I didn't really want to.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough. "There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.
 

and you can stop being lazy... I have a son now so I really have nothing to do almost every day but to study/watch him. I won't have many distractions considering I stay home pretty much every day lol

edit: you act like I wasn't partying every day of every weekend, like I didn't have a 360 in my room, and there weren't hot bitches in class during high school lol... I was working a job too

what some of you people are failing to grasp with my posts was that I JUST DIDN'T GIVE A SHIT... I asked the mathematical genius in the class if she was any good and he said no. Hell, one day the teacher didn't come, the sub didn't know wtf was going on, and that student taught the class... and he did a 10x better job than the fucking teacher! If you asked her a question about the same topic twice she would start bitching you out. You can't be a good teacher if you're yelling at people for asking questions.

I've done a lot of growing up since high school and to be told that I can't stop being "lazy" is kind of a blanket statement. It's not just about me anymore, it's about my son. I've discovered an interest in math/business/economics that I've never had before and if I had it my way, I would go to school until the day I die. I learned the same stuff in my college algebra class and picked it up easily when I actually gave two shits.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough. "There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.
 

done

I think I'm just gonna take some more math classes at my current school because the Pell Grant is paying for it, and then basing my future major off of the results...

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough. "There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.
 

Isn't an engineering/math background more appropriate for trading/quant hedge fund work? I'm not sure how being able to make fouriers transform would help someone as an investment banker or a financial analyst at a F500. True, engineering/math majors have stronger problem solving skills, and wall street/consulting firms might have the time/resources to teach people the basics on the job, but for other financial analyst positions, it seems like most of them want finance/accounting majors only from what I've noticed.

Pretty women make us BUY beer. Ugly women make us DRINK beer.
 

Many, many quants and S&T guys have backgrounds in engineering, physics, or the like.

  1. They can program.
  2. They have the ability to think through a complex problem.
  3. They have the work ethic to keep plugging on, as shown by grades in a difficult subject.

Even to a non quant or S&T position, ie IBD, these are attractive skills, and if combined with the right other skills, could beat out a finance major.

That said, the time spent learning engineering concepts could be better spent networking and learning financial concepts and modelling, the "right" skills for IBD.

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face."
 

"Anyone who chooses a career based on exit opportunities is a moron frankly... Yes you want to earn good money but you can earn good money in most professions, especially engineering."


This is not really true. Sure Petroleum Engineering you can make money. Otherwise be prepared to travel 40-50% and max out at $150k when you are 50. It is not bad money sure; but hour for hour, flight for flight, and, most importantly, dollar for dollar, I would evaluate the opportunity cost here. Sucks to miss your kids b-days over and over for $120k.

Asatar - really? People are morons to look where they could be in 3, 5, 10 years, or after their "career" in a 2-year analyst program??

I have found that people do engineering because they see a 60-70k starting pay and it does have prestige. They never look to see that Engineers with 15-20 years at Lockheed make $120k all in. If you really enjoy it I would of course do it. But that is not a career you do for the money or exit ops.

Just my $0.02.

 
sk8247365:
"Anyone who chooses a career based on exit opportunities is a moron frankly... Yes you want to earn good money but you can earn good money in most professions, especially engineering."

This is not really true. Sure Petroleum Engineering you can make money. Otherwise be prepared to travel 40-50% and max out at $150k when you are 50. It is not bad money sure; but hour for hour, flight for flight, and, most importantly, dollar for dollar, I would evaluate the opportunity cost here. Sucks to miss your kids b-days over and over for $120k.

Asatar - really? People are morons to look where they could be in 3, 5, 10 years, or after their "career" in a 2-year analyst program??

I have found that people do engineering because they see a 60-70k starting pay and it does have prestige. They never look to see that Engineers with 15-20 years at Lockheed make $120k all in. If you really enjoy it I would of course do it. But that is not a career you do for the money or exit ops.

Just my $0.02.

The guy clearly doesn't have much interest in doing finance as a career and has no desire to work at a computer for 12 hours a day which even VPs do. I don't think its worth killing yourself for 2 years and then living the next 3-4 in conditions not much better, for a industry he isn't really interested in.

Yes engineers max out lower than financiers, but there is always a price on doing something you enjoy. Varies from person to person of course but I'd rather make $200k/year doing something I love and am interested in that $1m/year doing something I hate.

For people aiming in finance of course exit ops are important, but I still maintain that they are emphasized too much on this site.

I worked at a hedge fund last summer and am the coder for my own start-up this summer. The hedge fund work, to me, was pretty boring. I learned some really interesting stuff and had a lot of time to read a lot of awesome finance news, but sitting around waiting for positions to hit was just...ugh.

On the contrary, doing my own tech start-up is a ton of fun. Obviously there's risk involved, but given that I'm 19, I can fuck up without any ramifications to my family (like losing my house or having my kids starve). At the same time, there are some EXTREMELY boring / tedious parts. Debugging issues can just be mind-numbing when you've been at the same issue for the last 3 days. At the same time, I really enjoy coding so I'm pretty happy with what I'm doing most of the time.

While some people say that they don't like the aspect of how engineering isn't as social as other jobs, allow me to just say that a lot of what I do besides coding is networking with the entrepreneurial community in Philadelphia. It's a ton of fun.

While I can't speak to any exit opportunities yet, I can imagine that it can't be too hard to get into finance after an engineering job when you're young. Hell, Michael Grimes did internships at tech companies before deciding ultimately that he wanted to do banking.

 

I wish I had studied engineering in college. You really don't need 4 years to learn the skills needed for IB. That's why you see lots of engineers able to transition into finance, but I've never seen a finance guy become an engineer.

You can argue that engineers max out lower than bankers if you decide to be an employee for the rest of your life. But if you go the entrepreneur route, I think bankers max out lower than engineers. You hear about the island Ellison just bought? (yes I know he dropped out of college, but he was still an engineer). Banking salaries are very high, but I think it's harder to become super rich working in finance.

 

AstonMartin, the thing to remember is that you have just about the same shot at hitting it big in entrepreneurship as you do making partner in finance / law, if not even slimmer. The average entrepreneur is just going to do "meh." I think that they're happy with that, to be honest.

I'm absolutely convinced that people choose to go into finance over engineering out of college not because of the salary. Facebook now pays better than an analyst position - there was a post on WSO about that, if I remember correctly. I'm convinced it's because you really don't have to work that hard in school, given that you're at a target, to break into finance. Nobody's going to say that the average undergrad finance curriculum is more challenging than the average computer science undergrad curriculum. As somebody pursuing both degrees, there's no comparison.

It's really analogous to potential pre-meds who end up doing, like, a psych or sociology degree because it's just easier than doing pre-med.

 

That might be a good plan. Engineering will definitely work for startup/product management careers. And it might be possible to later move into equity research (maybe not at a BB, but quite possibly for a boutique shop covering an industry you know). It's something I'm considering myself (I'm an engineer interested in investing). With an engineering background you can also do consulting, become an entrepreneur or a VC.

Just keep in mind that studying engineering (especially EE) is not a walk in the park. You don't have to love math, but it's better to initially focus on it, so you can later enjoy the harder EE and CS classes (otherwise you will be trying to understand the math as much as the application).

Good luck!

 

Why not MFE? Master of Financial Engineering. Can you program C++, R, MatLab, Python, VBA (at least 3 of those 5)?

I'll do what I can to help ya'll. But, the game's out there, and it's play or get played.
 
pplstuff:
Why not MFE? Master of Financial Engineering. Can you program C++, R, MatLab, Python, VBA (at least 3 of those 5)?

No I can't do any. That's the problem with these finance degrees. I literally learned nothing during my time as an undergrad. Whatever I know came from my own outside reading/EC involvement and my tech skills are non-existent. That's why I figure I might just need to cut my losses and start over. It sucks though because I'm more interested in finance, but it's just so competitive these days.

 

You mentioned you are interested in startups. Have you tried joining one?

You will start as a grunt, but to be honest being one in a good startup is way more interesting than being a back office grunt, because you will have more freedom to do stuff that's interesting to you.

 

I don't think I'd be able to make it through comp sci if I wasn't actually interested in it. If you want to get into finance, why not double major with some financial math crap or something like that to show that you have the smarts? Or take the time that you would be using to study for engineering classes and use it to network. Studying engineering just for the sake of it could make you hate the next couple years of your life. Hell, I really like comp sci and I still hate my life just because I'm so busy.

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough. "There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.
 

I'm doing Finance major accounting minor, and I'll get my masters in either: financial engineering, mathematical finance, computational finance, or whatever the schools decide to call the exact same thing at different institutions :) It also depends on what you want to do. What type of IB? If it's relationship-based then probably finance + MBA, if it's a quantitative position then you need math, comp-sci, and finance. Generally you get one in undergrad and the other two are covered in your MFE/MFS program. For a real quant job you have to have at least a masters, and a Ph.D if you're looking to get paid for research.

This is pretty much all from the lips of a JP Morgan VP (shh, I know there's just under a million of them) that I had the good fortune to interview.

Hope this helps!

--Patrick

 

It's correct, the quantitative skills you pick up in programs like that prepare you for playing in today's markets better than a business discipline (finance, accounting, statistics, etc.).

I am permanently behind on PMs, it's not personal.
 

I have always heard the same thing, but why is this. What is it about the day to day work of a trader that makes these skills so necessary? I can understand quick mental mathematics and a good general knowledge of calculus and statistics but why such advanced math, I thought that was needed only for programming gigs?

 

Traders are more cerebral than bankers. There's a substantial amount of programming involved. Trading processes are highly algorithmic these days. For banking, "You need to know addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division if you're getting fancy."

"The code of competence is the only system of morality that's on a gold standard." - Francisco d'Anconia
 

The movement in trading is away from gut feeling and fundamentals and more towards algos and computer based trading. Having programing skills allows you to adjust the algos quickly when the markets change.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne
 

Dude, just major in what you want to. And make sure you beast it and get a high gpa. It's college, have fun... and read the FT (student subscription)

"Have you ever tried to use a chain with 3 weak links? I have, and now I no longer own an arctic wolf." -Dwight Schrute
 
Hamilton:
Dude, just major in what you want to. And make sure you beast it and get a high gpa. It's college, have fun... and read the FT (student subscription)
Hahaah I just read that you are at MIT. Good luck getting a high gpa in a technical major.
"Have you ever tried to use a chain with 3 weak links? I have, and now I no longer own an arctic wolf." -Dwight Schrute
 

If you're at MIT, they're probably not going to have questions regarding your quantitative ability, so I'd say that it doesn't really matter. In my school (a target that is nowhere near the capability of MIT in terms of being quanty) sent econ majors to prop trading to the likes of DRW and SIG. Of course, algorithmic trading requires a pretty focused set of skills that requires even a specific engineering major.

 

Algorithmic trading is only one kind of trading right? I have a family member in trading at a BB but doesn't know programming and is not out of the ordinary in terms of quantitative ability. Asking because I would like to get into trading but was hoping to do a non-mfin/mfe type program like masters in finance or masters in Applied Economics.

 

If you want to become an economist then you should study (and major in) economics. Also, money should not be a limiting factor. Most top 20 schools will meet your demonstrated need.

Why is double majoring not an option? Excel in both fields and you'll have a great shot at pursuing almost anything in "business".

 
IlliniProgrammer:
With Rutgers I'd go with engineering- maybe electrical engineering? Spend a few years at Hess or IBM or some other F500 concern that relies heavily on engineering, and then go to B-school.

I'm not an engineer, however one of my friends who goes to Montana State for mechanical engineering says that industrial engineering is the best right now. Said employers love them the most.

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."
 

Do a double major or engineering with a business minor. I studied MechE and finance. I liked engineering better from an academic standpoint, but I felt the career opportunities were better in finance. I feel like I kind of got the best of both worlds, the one issue is that you'll either need to carry a crazy course load or stay for a bonus years, which is what I did.

 

Thanks for feedback everybody its really appreciated. And good questions actually. I never considered double majoring because I've been told time after time that its useless or not worth it. I wouldn't mind doubling up at all and come to think of it that does open a lot more doors especially for starting up a business. And well, at the core of what I want to do from what I've deducted... 1) Mostly keep track and direct a company's growth and finances and report about it say what needs to be done type of work and what not I guess mostly analysis/leading a team along those lines, 2) invent useful devices and gadgets (preferably combat), 3) eventually start investing into other sources of income like commercial buildings/routes/franchises. I essentially just want to hit 100k in salary as soon as possible as an additional factor. I'd be more than happy to meet all 4 of those.

Questions: Besides that though I have a few questions on the strategy of engineer to MBA. What essentially does a company see in that? What type of jobs does that open up?

Concerns: Engineers, from what I've researched go in and out of unemployment and do not get the pay that I really wish to achieve...

 

Man life is short.

This website is like a throw back to the early twenties... wish we could have those worrying and studying years back.

The recs on here are fine you can get in with both, the bigger question is what is a more efficient use of your time. Personally, life is a game of maximization so would recommend just choosing the more finance related one and then getting internships to make some side scratch and get to investing.

At the end of the day, the most useful thing in your life is this: 1) Time (translation is health), 2) Money.

So hope you sign up for accounting and finance 101 as soon as possible.

 
WallStreetPlayboys:
Man life is short.

This website is like a throw back to the early twenties... wish we could have those worrying and studying years back.

The recs on here are fine you can get in with both, the bigger question is what is a more efficient use of your time. Personally, life is a game of maximization so would recommend just choosing the more finance related one and then getting internships to make some side scratch and get to investing.

At the end of the day, the most useful thing in your life is this: 1) Time (translation is health), 2) Money.

So hope you sign up for accounting and finance 101 as soon as possible.

I'd say that life in college is about maximizing options and experiences. If you are generally interested in two courses of study, then pursue both. In my opinion efficiency isn't that important as a student because your focus should be on exploring options, not rushing through to find yourself on a course that you may/may not like. I've found that both of my courses of study have contributed to my career, but I personally feel that engineering added more value, even though I've never worked in an engineering role post-college.

 

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