I'm Starting to Think that Connections/Interview Skills are the Only Thing That Matters for Getting Jobs

networking is a huge part of the process as long as your grades are reasonable. many people use connections -- don't fret about using them too

90% of this business is about who you know.

I think that's a fair assessment honestly. I am in a similar situation and I don't think there is a damn thing wrong with using whatever family/friend connection you can. But, to your original point, I think thats about 90% of the equation.

What do you think target means....It means that enough alumns got into the bank's senior management positions that they got to say where the bank went to recruit its students.....alumni recruiting (which is exactly what OCR is) is just about connections.

lol not in quant finance

This is pretty much the gospel truth when it comes to investment banking, private equity, business, and life in general. It all comes down to who you know - it's the only way to get a job. It becomes even more critical the more senior you get. I can promise you that when senior executives move around, they don't do it by lobbing resumes over the transom.

Separately - most jobs that you actually want beyond entry level positions aren't even posted. Candidates are almost always sourced exclusively through personal networks.

MBB is actually fairly notorious for even among connected people being very prestige oriented. The vast majority of their offices are filled with people from targets. The connected individuals are usually connected enough to get into a target school.

Most people who have 'family members @ random BB or consulting firm' know somebody that is essentially doing Ops or something not what people here are targeting. Nothing wrong with that, but it is something different.

If you are talking about a different country, then that is something completely different and I don't know why the fuck you're trying to compare it to the United States or most of the other main offices. Then again, I've met complete moron foreigners who, because of family connections, were able to go to top 5-10 schools and get offers at top firms and somehow keep their jobs even though they're barely intelligent enough to put a sentence together.

"It's not who you are, it's who you know." - Metallica

You're all wrong. This is a typical example of an either-or fallacy. It's neither exclusively one or the other. It's a mix of both - and no, not 90% - who, 10% - what.

lol. New Yorker is so wrong. I know a lot of people who got into JPM SA position as well as BAC and CS just based on who you know. Oh, and you think Goldman Sachs goes after kids with straight A's and extracurricular activities? NOOOOOOPE. It's not a coincidence that Hilary Clintons son in law who's father was a senator is now working at Goldman Sachs.

It is networking plain and simple. I don't know why people are so resistant of this. If you can network you probably are ok to work with. Straight A's simply tells me that you know how to pass tests. Every college student knows you don't have to know the material, you just have to know how to pass the test.

Send some emails, ask for help, show an interest and you can get an interview. Networking cannot get you the job. You still need to know your shit, interview well, do a good job, etc. It just gets your foot in the door.

so what is a junior at a target with a good GPA and relevant work exp/leadership etc supposed to do if he does not have connections at BBs? what is the breakdown of candidates who get interviews thru networking vs those who get it thru a good resume?

what perplexes me is how this business can be all about knowing people, because any idiot can know people, but i wonder how much that helps if you are, say, on an FX exotics desk trying to hedge the greeks of a portfolio of barrier options...will your networking help you in that case?

I think they are talking about banking not trading. It doesn't take a 4.0 Physics major from MIT to work on a pitch book or excel models

lol i have seen a good number of people network their way into SA gigs in S&T, and they weren't exactly the brightest people (not sure how many of them got FT offers though)....apparently S&T recruiting is done in a very haphazard fashion and the people reviewing resumes just want to get it over with, so they just pick whoever they know etc, and a few lucky people from the remaining stack of 350 resumes....

btw, doesn't the vast majority of profits BBs make come from S&T? it seems that S&T is the bread and butter for most of these banks, so one would think they would actually want to hire competent/smart people, as opposed to randomly picking people or just picking people they know (i'm sure some connected people are smart, but i kid you not, i know people both in my school and others who have gotten BB jobs and they are dumb as fuck)

"Banking is all about connections."

                                    -------------------Michele Sindona

Connection is even MORE important after you pass the interview. It's human nature, live with it and you can archieve success.

Yes, knowing people and having connections does help and provides a good foot in the door. However, for all those naysayers who discount someone just because they got a job because they "know" someone is a load of crap. Unless you are the son of parents who possess significant power and control over the individual responsible for making the decision to hire you, you will most likely not get the job if you can't showcase to your network that you are a competent, able, and ambitious individual who can handle the workload despite what your grades may reflect.

The following is NOT an example how an effective state school 3.0 GPA individual lands a job via networking/personal contacts:

Recent Graduate: "Hey Mr. Thomas, I hear you make loads of cash and have a lot of pull in your company. I don't feel like wasting my time posting my resume and applying for jobs. Can you just give me an interview and tell your HR director to hire me?"

Mr. Thomas: "I completely understand where you're coming from. Don't waste your energy at all. Even if your resume is garbage, just send it to me as I need it as a formality and I'll have HR set you up with an interview next week. Don't even worry about this interview as this too is a formality, basically you already have the job.

Typically when utilizing contacts, you are introduced to them in a casual environment where you may discuss your interests, what you are looking to do, why you are looking to do it. After this, you then may send an e-mail to open up communication. During this back and forth e-mail correspondence, you will reveal more about your inner thoughts and feelings to the person you are talking with. If after these several correspondences, the contact feels you may be worth for them to put their recommendation out for you, they may then come back with some leads, etc . . .

This is how the process may unfold over time, but typically it still results from gaining insight into your thought process / mind. It's also a way to filter out if the potential hire is actually smart enough to handle the job and his grades were just do to a lack of not fully committing in prior years.

There are plenty of 3.3 GPA students out there that are just as capable as a 4.0, they may just have not been as focused on academics at the point in time. Maybe they were fortunate to be in a position where they didn't need to be or maybe they just didn't care. However, once they start caring, they can still compete with the best of them.

2 things. And I'd say them in order of importance.

1. If I was you, I'd focus less on venting and focus more on how can I know the technicals inside, outside, upside down. You ask me a question, I spit out the answer like my name is google. And stop worrying about fair/unfair. fuck that shit. Focus on YOU. YOU. YOU. YOU. Not others, not the world. fuck the world.

2. You said, " you can be of value in finance". That's bad attitude. By design, this is not an industry for "value guys" who think, well, im no rockstar, but I can float. This industry (IB / PE) is meant for rockstar. You dont HAVE to have a 4.0 to be a rockstar, you just gotta have enough self-belief and confidence, that if u set ur mind to it, u'd cross any bridge to get there. Now, I see it in you when u say " I really wana job in finance".

How badly you want? I guess we'll find out soon. If you want it badly enough, u WILL get it. guy who will do whatever it takes to get there is usually the one who does get there. Bet it sports or business, u gotta have a winning attitude. How far can u go before u say, " fuck it, its not worth it". The moment that thought arrives in ur head - that loser's mentality - ur done. ur a sheep. and this biz aint for sheeps, they get slaughtered. This is for wolves ; u eat what u kill.

so many of these forums talk about GPA's importance but no one talks about what it means to employer

difference between 3.3 and 4.0 is not intellectual horsepower, it is effort. Do you spend extra hour to re-read the essay/assignment to scan for mistakes/errors b4 u submit? If u get stuck at homework question, do u seek help or u just say, fuck it...there's 10 questions, i get 7 right, 70 is fine. the moment u start settling with that, that " it is OK to not go the extra mile" that is the moment when this loser's mentality starts breeding.

3.3 tells me, you were a capable guy who has talent but didnt put in effort. 2.3 tells me you're fucking stupid / or just flat out lost and dont know why went to college. 4.0 tells me, either ur ridiculous hard worker and/or u knew ur talent and u cultivated it well

Now, since i've been outa college for a while, ...what does GPA means from my end, as an employer?

2.3 tells me, not to hire him. he's lost. i want none of it 3.3 tells me, I can teach him how to model but not sure if he'll walk the extra mile to check, check and check his work again (which means less work for me, the guy who's hiring u)

4.0 means this guy can sit down and do the work even if it is boring, even he hates it. That is all it tells me. I dont give a fuck if u majored in vaginal science or rocket science - doesnt fucking matter. I wana see, how well u did in watever u chose.

There r 3 kinds of student in North America

1. Shawn : He has 4.0s. every company recruits him, the "top cream" they say. "target" "ivy league" "4.0" watever u wana call it. he basically have his way with the world. he gets taken care of, one way or another, his life is set. That's top 10 of N. America.

2.Shane : he's 2.3. He knows he's not good. nobody wants him. no company/business desires him. HE TOO is taken care of : he goes on welfare, govt. takes care of him cos if it does not, that mofo will be roaming around in streets doing nothing, and his empty/useless mind will come up with things to distrub social balance. Govt put em on welfare. they get taken care of. That's bottom 10 % of n america

3. Sheep: These are the 3.0s and 3.2s. Theyre average. Companies dont want them because, lets face it, no one wants to date a 2nd rate bitch when u can get a top rated one. Govts. dont worry about em cos they're too busy trying to figure out what to do with the Shanes. In short, Sheeps get slaughtered. They get fucked. They get fucked by Shawns (Wall street) and they mob together and go cry to govt. bitch and moan to the Govt. And then the Govt. fucks em by taxing em even more. In short, they ALWAYS get fucked no matter what. And that's 80 % of america.

Good night.

^What kind of proof of the conversation did you have to submit? Or was it an honor system assignment?

^^^^^ wow guys, to be honest I was starting to complain in my own head to myself. But this thread is pure inspirational genius. Networking is hustle. However I have FEAR and its holding me back.

I am afraid that even after I meet the person and introduce myself, they have NO reason to help me really. They aren't my good friend they dont know me and talking to them for ten minutes really doesn't mean a damn thing.

Even if you make them laugh or leave a good impression that you are a hard worker, and that you want to succeed, what reason would they go out of their way to help YOU.

Thats why I dont bother even trying to network because I dont see how stranger would end up helping me in the end.

Even if I talk to them for ten minutes and i get their contact information, the next day I would feel hesitant to email them and ask them in a round about way "hey dude i need your help forward this resume to a guy who can get me hired"

It just feels like you are using them and you are giving them nothing in return other than a act of goodwill even if they like you and you make them laugh etc whats in it for them to help you, networking is like hoping for charity rather not an even exchange of usability.

Actually, the current system of needing to network and do alot of preliminary work and preparation(i.e. lots of internship, right uni etc...), is perfect assessment for investment banking because:

At a senior level its a sales job At a junior level you need to work ALOT, and the work can be done by anyone really(altough many bankers like to delude themselves that they have above average talent)

What I am curious how much does all of this still apply to PE? How much to hedge fund(little to hedgefund id presume)?

So you just realized this fact ?

Welcome to the Real World.

How NOT to get a job: After networking my nuts off for 2 and a half years to position myself for a full time position after college, I ended up snagging my job (in IB) by submitting my less than stellar, albeit strong CV to a listing on our careers site with zero personal contact. I got the called up two weeks later. So, is networking the only thing that matters? No.

Kambo: You need to sack up. You can't expect the job to come to you; you have to put yourself out there and snag it. Be confident enough to put yourself in front of people through other people. The first time you ask, I you'll be received way better than you're expecting and you'll be gravy from then on out, even if that particular opportunity doesn't pan out. If you're in your last year of college and you don't have anything lined up yet. You should be spending way more time pinging alumni than doing school work. Get into the city as often as you can to meet people in person and just try to be yourself. People are always eager to pay it forward.

I realize how contradictory those two paragraphs sound. I think I'm just saying it's never enough to network alone - you still need to produce.

The whole GPA argument doesn't make a lot of sense. Will a 4.0 guarantee you a job? Of course not, but it will always be better than a 3.3 (all other things equal). Firms will always want a 4.0 over a 3.3. We are really comparing a 3.3 connected kid to a non connected 4.0 kid, which are apples and oranges. I think the idea is if you screwed up school and can't do the work, you better have connections up the wazoo because its the only way you can compete. If you a 4.0 kid, keep up the good work and use that GPA to network before the jobs interviews start. Not the mention the fact a 4.0 science or business major will know econometrics, finance, intricate models etc. while i bet a small percentage of the low 3 GPA will know what a dependent vs independent variable is. Also, there is no inverse correlation to GPA and ability to interview.

I know a lot of people who are not into the 4.0 kid. You need to have more than just a high GPA. 4.0 with solid internships and EC's will win over the 3.3 kid with the same, but companies like to see a range of activities, GPA just being one of them.

Hate to burst peoples bubble, but internships and networking are the only things that matter. If you think a 4.0 will get the job over the 3.0 kid with a great internship and recommendations you are nuts. 3-4 years out no one cares about your GPA either. Time to wake up to the fact that you have been lied to your whole life.

Alright thanks for the responses guys. I guess, like one person said, I just need to count my blessings that I have people that can help me out and focus on becoming the best I can be. Even though I might not be an absolute stud, I owe it not only to my family, but potentially my future employer (if I get hired) to become the absolute best I can be and become a super star despite what my resume or lack of pedigree indicates thus far. I just felt bad because people who are better than me might not get a chance to work, but I guess I need to work on myself and reach their level so that my family and employer won't regret passing up the others for me.

Well, don't be a man about it.

Here's my take. A politician who funded his own campaign without taking any outside money- from the party caucus or from different interests- is a very powerful and independent person in office. The same thing when you get into a job.

If you can beat out the connected folks and come in not owing anyone anything, that's a good way to start a job. And it's always better to be an A+ employee at a B+ firm than be a B+ employee at an A+ firm.

If you can get in without much networking, you might not be an A+ employee, but you're probably at least an A-.

I have never used any connections in the past and I started in PE Fund right after my MS in Finance and I now work in IB in New York in a first 1/3 MM Bank (I come from Europe...so you can imagine how difficult this move have been)

My all point here is that if you really want something - people feel it

So, if you are a prospective Monkey and you send your resume to me and I have the choice between the "connected propective monkey" and the one who went through the regular path...Everything being equal I ll give an advantage to the latest because in my eyes he earned it.

Unfortunately, people like me are rare...but I do feel like more and more, background are very diverse in IB (social, ethnicity, religion, country of origin...)

So, to all the propective monkeys outhere who have no connections, here is my 2 cents:

• It is a brutal world outhere but if you really want it and you put the time to acdhive it, you ll reach a level where connections doesn't matter anymore - your preparation and your motivation will "show"

I couldn't agree with you more. Obviously, it's a mix ... it's about brains, hard work, and being able to prove you've earned enough (whether it be grades or previous employment) that your addition to the company can be proven on paper. But, man oh man, good people skills, non-smarmy networking, keeping up with friends and acquaintances -- who you know -- is extremely important. There are a lot of people who got where they are today with no help and pure hard work, and those people should be celebrated. But, especially in this economy, you should have no qualms about using your contacts/family/friends to help get you a job. Everybody has to eat -- and both the hard worker and the good talker both have to prove themselves (in interviews) and once they get into the company. Unless of course you're that special case where you're the daughter of the President, for example.

You could also try upping your cunnilingus/handjobbing skills, as the case may be. Can't underestimate a good sexual favor. Take it from DoctorEvil. He would know.

I think you're all over-analyzing GPAs. While I view it as the single most important factor in determining whether a person is hard-working or intelligent, it doesn't have much of an impact outside of that. Trying to compare the difficulty of schools by looking at the % of students with 4.0s is a silly task and an absolute waste of time.

I think some of you guys are slightly overstating this whole "joke school" thing. Yes, it is probably easier to get a decent GPA at a state school than an ivy (although ivies typically have more grade inflation), but you'd be surprised how much you have to study even at a state school, and I'm not just talking about the Berkeleys and Michigans of the world. Fact is, there is always a group of smart kids at any half decent school and since a smaller percentage of the class gets As at bigger schools, getting a 4.0 will require work there as well. A lot of people on these boards are ivy league snobs who think anything outside of ivies, stanford, MIT, CalTech, Duke, etc. are worthless and full of retards who party all day and while that may be true on average, there will still be a few at the top who will challenge you no matter where you go. You'd be surprised at how many smart people have no ambitions of going to an ivy league school for whatever reason, which is something people on these boards can't comprehend. If you want to measure pure intelligence, I think awards at academic competitions is a better way of gauging that. GPA, IMO, is purely a way to measure work ethic and I guarantee, even at what WSO considers "joke schools" a 4.0 will still require a lot of work.

If you couldn't tell, I was trolling you for posting such faggotry on the forum. Sarcasm FTW!

CaptK - is PE the promised land that us banking monkey's so desperately hope it to be?