Can the Bank cancel an offer?
Hi all!
I want to ask such an interesting quesyion!
Have you seen any exaples, when IBD cancelled an offer?
Thanks!
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"Hi Jeff, Everyone was very impressed with your interviews today. We are excited to formally extend to you an offer to join Bank of Ameria Merrill Lynch as an analyst next summer."
Comes to mind.
Yes, it is an at will employment. They can pull your offer at any time and you can leave at anytime.
Even if You signed it?
They can "pull the offer" or "terminate you" for whatever reason or no reason at all. They can even fire you on your first day, doesn't matter. Nothing you can do about it.
It depends on the country you are working in. Employment is not "at will" in many jurisdictions with regards to the employer, and in quite a lot of countries a formally extended offer would be legally binding, so it would be against the law to "pull the offer" for no reason.
http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/content/apr2008/bs2008043_860590.h…
Would a BB rescind offers from an incoming class? (Originally Posted: 12/06/2012)
When firms report they are cutting thousands of jobs, would incoming Analysts ever get the axe?
Unlikely, although some BBs in the crisis shifted some new hires to capital markets. The cuts now are not that serious though. And analysts are cheap. They are rarely the subject of layoffs (except at UBS).
It does happen, depending on circumstance. It's true to say that analysts are cheap, but I've had friends who've had their start dates pushed back indefinitely and people who've had offers withdrawn (that was more in Big 4 accounting though).
I haven't heard of anything like that happening, but wait until you are working there for sure.
UBS already did.
link?
This definitely happened during the downturn. There were very qualified people who were told not to show up on day 1, particularly at some of the big NYC banks. Not much you can do about it though -- you're at the mercy of the market.
Rescinded Offers? (Originally Posted: 11/19/2008)
I have a banking offer to be an analyst with a major bank starting in summer 09. With all of the recent chaos and rough economic outlook, is anyone concerned about having their offer rescinded?
I know most of the banks curtailed their hiring a lot, but I doubt they were expecting this tough of an environment...namely little deal flow outside of FIG.
I'd like to hear what you guys think and does anyone know what the 2001-2003 period was like? Were offers rescinded for the guys who were hired at the peak?
It's highly unlikely unless you do something incredibly stupid or there is an financial exigency for the firm. But yes, it theoretically can happen, and there's nothing you can do about it unless you are an underrepresented minority.
At-will means at-will. However, if they fire you without cause after three months of work, you do get to collect unemployment insurance. Typically your signing bonus contractually vests after a year.
They could pull a JPM and "temporarily reassign" you to private wealth or commercial banking. Probably better than the alternatives. You have a valid concern though...
re '01-'03, some boutiques did rescind offers in '01 but i don't believe any of the bulge brackets did, at least in significant numbers (possibly for west coast offers given the tech bust - i don't recall). however, some of the banks did begin laying off right out of training or shortly thereafter. the downturn was already obvious for the '02 and '03 recruiting years so those classes were much smaller.
I haven't heard about it happening to anyone i know, but honestly, I constantly wonder about the strength of my offer and whether I'll really have the opportunity to join in July.
Do you guys think hiring has been reduced to the point (for summer 09 analysts) that the analyst class is bare bones enough to survive reasonably intact?
I think it partially depends on how well your bank, as well as your specific group is doing. A better capitalized bank has a bit of a cushion to ride out the storm with less layoffs, aiming to capture more deals and league table cred when the market finally turns.
Although the downturn was factored into the # of offers given out for the upcoming analyst class, most banks made decisions before the crisis turned into an absolute circus. I think there will be some rescinded offers here and there, but as there is nothing you can do about it, try to enjoy your senior year and hope for the best.
Does anyone have more details on how this was handled during the previous downturn?
If you were a betting man, what are the odds my offer gets rescinded? (Originally Posted: 04/14/2009)
So in November I accepted an offer for a certain Reinsurance company that has been going through some problems. My position is in a new part of the company that is basically looking to act like a FIG group at an Investment Bank, getting DCM for insurance companies as well as offering M&A advice.
Well this company was bailed out by a certain richest man in the world, who now owns 20% of the company through warrants. The company also closed down their capital markets trading operations which had lost money by writing CDO CDS. Last week they announced they were cutting 10% of their workforce worldwide.
So what chance would you say that my position gets cut? It may be paranoid for me to ask, but I guess thats just who I am.
DOes anyone know if offers were rescinded from merrill, citi, ms, or gs when they had all their major cuts last year? Or is rescinding offers basically only for bear stearns? Thanks for your time
For instance, you have bachelor degree, studying m.s. and received an offer for 1st tear analyst at bb before m.s. graduation and starting date on summer. But, suddenly, you don't receive m.s. Will they cancek offer, if you tell them about your problems?
Swiss Re is not anywhere near the bad positions of bs, leh, merrill, etc. I know friends whose offers were rescinded for BS and LEH, but Swiss Re is not going to fail. And besides that, the new economic reality and their new expectations was probably already factored in by the time they made you the offer last nov.
Plus they are unlikely to axe recent graduates from a newly started "like FIG" division. (e.g. then why start it now?)
I am a betting man, and I would say the chance of your FT offer being rescinded this late is 2-3%.
p.s.- will you work in that easter egg building in london or are you at armonk?
Thanks for the good news. I'm in Armonk, which kinda sucks just because its outside NYC.
Thanks for the response, hope you aren't still at work
Definitely agree with Philosopher
Rescinding offers (Originally Posted: 09/03/2010)
I have a full-time offer from my internship this summer. I'm a little worried because I've noticed some recent articles that claim Wall Street is cutting jobs.
Can banks rescind offers, and how common is it? Anyone here had experience with it?
as in, you won't be receiving it at all? umm...pretty sure they hired you with the expectation of finishing that whole degree thing.
is this real life.
Wow, this is a flashback to 2008!
I'd be skeptical of banks cutting jobs on the same scale as before but some cuts are a possibility. Can you post the article you were referring to?
Yes banks can rescind offers (see all those poor Bear-turned JPM-but-thrown-elsewhere-not-banking-or-s&t, or Lehman analysts to be).
Is it common? Well if it does happen, it won't be of the same magnitude of 2008.
I do remember reading job cut articles too - but it was for specific groups (like commodities and prop trading) or back office.
Here is the article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100014240527487035898045754451312619361…
Hard to say whether they're making a mountain out of a molehill, or if they even know what they're talking about. It's still nerve-wracking though.
My offer is in investment banking, not sales and trading, so hopefully that makes a bit of a positive difference.
Congrats on the offer, I am a little envious of your position. But what are you going to do if you don't accept, apply to other places? Even if you do, won't you face the same problems again?
good point.
I was thinking of applying to consulting positions, but who's to say that those jobs won't have the same issues.
That would actually be interesting to know: does banking or consulting offer more job security?
I would say consulting. Even if the economy tanks, you can just "consult" on how to get companies out of trouble. Then again, that's a pure guess, but I'd imagine they'd have an easier time, just like lawyers.
Yes, banks can rescind offers. That phone call in March '09 was really fun...
Did this actually happen to you?
You can get fired at any time, but look at it this way: if a bank's looking to cut overhead, firing 1st year analysts is not the efficient way to do it. Contrary to what we all love to believe, analysts and associates are relatively cheap labor. My bank took the sword to the director levels mostly. The only times I saw analysts get laid off were when the group they were working in blew up. Which to be fair did happen a lot, but nobody blamed the analyst for that.
Also, relax. Your aren't going to get fired. Enjoy senior year~
I can receive m.s. it next year.
Are banks rescinding MBA offers? (Originally Posted: 12/25/2008)
Hi,
My girlfriend summered at a (surviving) bulge bracket firm this past summer in IB, and received an offer to go back full time after she graduates from her MBA program. I'm just wondering if banks have started rescinding offers to the incoming associates yet? She received a call from their HR department, and is nervous to call them back. Has this started in the past few weeks? Or have the layoffs only been those currently on the payrolls? Any color would be helpful. Thanks.
I haven't heard personally of anyone I know in b-school getting that call since the summer ended.
However, if I had to speculate I'd say MER offers are worthless and will be called back and maybe some MS offers. GS offers are probably safe since they didn't make them until October (had more information about how bad the market is before they made offers).
For the commercial banks, I'd say BofA people are safe, JPM people are safe, Citi may not be safe but I'd highly doubt they rescind. Wachovia....a buddy still in b-school got a call saying his bonus wouldbe paid at first pay check and he should be on the lookout for another job but he hasn't been officially rescinded yet.
The europeans.... CS and UBS should be fine and won't rescind. The folks are Barclays/LEH will probably be fine as well.
Just my thoughts. Anyone else think differently?
Distressed,
I have heard nothing about offers being rescinded; I honestly don't think we will hear about such outside of Wachovia, Merrill, and maybe Citi.
IBnutz,
I agree with some stuff:
I'm pretty sure MER offers will not be honored, and I believe some other people said they had talked to MER senior bankers who felt the same way.
The Euro bank offers are probably safe.
The Wachovia offers, I am fairly certain, are useless as I don't think Wells expressed a serious interest in investment banking.
BofA and JPM: I would imagine are probably safe right now. I still don't understand why BofA recruited and actually hired during fall FT recruiting when there was a MER summer analyst class, but w/e.
Citi: I would be uncomfortable with the firm, but who knows.
I'm not quite sure why you think Morgan Stanley is a possibility though; it had its bout with death, but any particular reason?
no particular reason with MS other than a lack of knowledge about their process and I don't know anyone I trust with good insight over there.
i just figured since they were a pure play and they are switching over to bank holding company and they made their offers long before that happened or even before the market took a real turn downward. whereas GS waited (as usual) to make their offers until after the market started tanking.
just a thought... good discussion here.... anyone else have an opinion?
I am a first year at a top 10 b-school and none of the 2nd years I know have had their offers pulled. This includes 3 people that interned at Lehman. All three of their offers were honored by Barclays. I did hear about a 1st year post-mba associate that was layed off 3 months after starting.
i know ms waited a bit of time before giving out their offers (for analysts, i know nothing about associates), so they probably had a decent idea of what kind of business environment they were looking at. they also severely pared back recruiting for non-summers fall fulltime and didn't even come to campus at my target.
so hopefully they won't be rescinding. but it'll all depend on how bad it gets obviously.
i'm thinking MS will probably be fine then if what you're saying is true (which I have no reason to believe it isn't).
I would say those people with offers from MER should be looking for other work after b-school. I know those people think that MER will be in charge of the IB transformation, but the thing is, those people weren't apart of what made MER great prior to the transition so they will probably get axed before starting. Although, I do know one person who is going to MER and that person got their signing bonus in full so thats a good sign for them.
Can anyone else think of a reason why any other bank would rescind MBA offers? I can't. My bank hasn't even laid off any first years yet and they would let us go before jacking with an incoming guy.
I would get really excited about your job this summer and offer to cancel your MS to start a year early. This, of course, is assuming that you were accepted in the first place. If you lied about something as big as that on your resume, you are done for. If the school made the offer but pulled it for some non-egregious reason, that makes some mild fudge factor understandable.
I''m getting the feeling you lied about getting into a MSF program.
In my country m.s. takes 2 years.i had problems in the end of year 2, so I will graduate ms next year. It's not MSF, it is just master degree in economics. My offer suggests to start 1st year analyst this summer.
If he lied about an acceptance, I'm really glad I'm not in OP's shoes right now. There's no saving him- or at least no FT offer from that firm or any other firm he lied to on his resume for that matter.
So you are doing a two-year MS but lied about the fact you are graduating this summer to get hired full-time???
Another black-balling situation. Then again, if this hasn't already been caught with your background check, my Cal Tech Math PhD replete with my 4.7 GPA makes me a perfect fit for your firm.
Did you lie to them or not? You just screwed up 2nd semester and can't graduate now? If that is the case, you need to go running to HR and explain the situation, so they can hire you on a Bachelor's pay scale. It will be embarassing- and give them an excuse to pull the offer, but it will probably be salvaged if you act now- assuming you didn't lie to them about anything or knew you wouldn't be graduating in advance of your final round interview. They will want to see transcripts and speak with a dean or two.
he lied lmao. Tell them you fucked up and won't be able to graduate....its the only thing you can do.
JPM pulled the offer they extended to a poor guy because they couldnt check his background just because they were lazy. There was a huge discussion on WSO on his situation - I looked for it, but it has been removed it was a couple of years back.
I had to graduate this summer and start full-time further. But I had some promblems at the university and will graduate next summer. So, my question was should I tell the bank about my problems or start working without saying anything?
Usually contract states that they can fire you at their will... (It's in your contract!)
Head-slap. Tell them the truth. Especially if there is a pay differential for your MS. Technically, lying about a graduate degree to get a pay raise constitutes criminal fraud. They may not prosecute you for it, but it is a good way to get fired.
They hired you for your work, not your degree. You need to call HR, explain the situation, say you still want to work for them, but will have to finish your graduate degree part time. 80% chance they'll mull it over for a few days and decide to keep you- just with a pay rate for undergrads rather than guys with MSs. It will be a huge weight off your shoulders; the truth- when you have nothing serious to hide- is healthy and a huge relief.
There is no difference in pay between degrees
You still need to let them know. This information will show up in your background check and FINRA application. The sooner you do all of this, the better.
They checked me before signing an offer. Shoukd I tell it Director or HR?
Well, you will have to state, under penalty of perjury for your securities license, that you graduated from that school. So unless you want to perjure yourself- and you will eventually be found out- you need to tell the truth.
Start with your existing HR contact on this- the lady who called or emailed you about your hire. I think you do have to let them know. Downplay downplay downplay, but don't make this look like it was expected. Worst comes to worst, you will spend one more semester at school and line up a job with a different but likely similar firm. 70-80% chance, however, that they allow you to start work and finish your last course part-time.
Person from the bank advises me to start worjing, show my self and then say about it(((
that would be a dumb idea
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