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8/19/13

Mod Note (Andy): Update - This story was confirmed earlier confirmed by our sources. Our prayers go out to his family.

From Bloomberg:

Moritz Erhardt, who was on a seven-week pre-graduate program in London, died Aug. 15, Bank of America spokesman John McIvor said by telephone today. The death is being treated as non-suspicious, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Police in London said in a statement.


Moritz Erhardt, who was on a seven-week pre-graduate program in London, died Aug. 15, a Bank of America spokesman said. Source: Seelio via Bloomberg
"He was popular amongst his peers and was a highly diligent intern at our company with a promising future," Bank of America said in its statement. "Our first thoughts are with his family and we send our condolences to them at this difficult time."
Erhardt was found unconscious at Claredale House, a student residential facility in East London. He was pronounced dead at the scene after being treated by paramedics, said the police spokesman, who asked not to be identified, citing agency policy.

Comments (267)

8/19/13

Family source of mine with connection to his university confirms that Moritz Erhardt died on Thursday. No cause of death was provided so far.

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In reply to WallStreetOasis.com
8/19/13

Patrick. Find sbd w/ a Bloomberg terminal and search for this guys name under latest news.

In reply to michael grimes
8/19/13

Yeah, am on mine now and even under BIO segment he is listed as deceased. Really sad and story linked to his BIO page confirms it from story quoted by That_Aston.

People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for freedom of thought which they seldom use.

8/19/13

This article is on my Terminal. NSN MRSENW6KLVS8. RIP. Hopefully this has a lasting impact.

8/19/13

This is terrible. RIP

8/19/13

Article text. Bloomberg also has a screen capture of the social network profile:

Wire: Bloomberg News (BN) Date: Aug 19 2013 12:47:57
Bank of America Says 21-Year-Old London Summer Intern Dies (3)

(Updates with school comment in sixth paragraph.)

By Ben Moshinsky and Ambereen Choudhury
Aug. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Bank of America Corp. said a 21-year-old intern died one week before completing a summer program.

Moritz Erhardt, who was on a seven-week pre-graduate program in London, died Aug. 15, Bank of America spokesman John McIvor said by telephone today. The death is being treated as non-suspicious, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Police in London said in a statement.

"He was popular amongst his peers and was a highly diligent intern at our company with a promising future," Bank of America said in its statement. "Our first thoughts are with his family and we send our condolences to them at this difficult time."

Erhardt was found unconscious at Claredale House, a student residential facility in East London. He was pronounced dead at the scene after being treated by paramedics, said the police spokesman, who asked not to be identified, citing agency policy.

Erhardt was an exchange student at the University of Michigan's Stephen M. Ross School of Business and attended WHU -- Otto Beisheim School of Management in Vallendar, Germany, according to his biography page on social-network site seelio.com.

'Deeply Shocked'

"We are all deeply shocked and saddened," Peter Augustin, a spokesman for the German business school, said in an e-mail.

"At the moment, we do not yet know further details. What we can say is that Moritz was a wonderful person and a dedicated student."

In addition to Charlotte, North Carolina-based Bank of America's investment-banking division, Erhardt also said he had work experience at KPMG Consulting, Morgan Stanley and Deutsche Bank AG's corporate finance division.

He went to high school at Faust-Gymnasium in Staufen, Germany, where he excelled in math and tennis, according to the biography page. His hobbies included sports and politics, according to the profile.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/19/13

To be clear, all of this talk about "dying due to overwork" is not at all confirmed.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/19/13

NorthSider:

To be clear, all of this talk about "dying due to overwork" is not at all confirmed.

8/19/13

NorthSider:

To be clear, all of this talk about "dying due to overwork" is not at all confirmed.

Not trying to be a dick, but you're coming off a little bit like Captain-Save-A-Bank in this thread.

No, correlation does not imply causation, but pulling three straight all-nighters and doing whatever it takes to make it happen and get your work done (and done right) will take a toll.

I had a friend of mine get an ulcer that really fucked him up from the stress and hours. People's health gets affected big time and senior people often really don't give a shit about anything other than if you turned their comments.

8/19/13
8/19/13

WallStreetOasis.com:

Just for clarification, this is NOT confirmed. Unfortunately, the users that are "confirming" this story are some of the least trusted and have some of the worst SB:MS ratios on the site...which makes this even more suspicious.

We are in the process of fact checking with our sources in London, but again, this is very possibly a coordinated prank until we confirm otherwise.

Thanks,

Patrick

Patrick, here's the link (there's a BAML point of contact listed):

{NSN MRSENW6KLVS8 go}

Also, Moritz Erhardt is also listed on the MVP page, and his BIO says "Deceased".

8/19/13
8/19/13

Even though so many people have "confirmed" this, the number of users having 1-15 points commenting/confirming on this thread is suspiciously high. If this is a prank, it's beyond disgusting.

Read my blog: Bateman Begins

8/19/13

fuck this life, i know the kid. was my friend.
cant confirm the death, haven't heard from him for a while, he was in USA until recently... but i have seen some trustworthy websites publishing the story so i guess it is not some bs.

RIP

8/19/13

WallStreetOasis.com:

Just for clarification, this is NOT confirmed. Unfortunately, the users that are "confirming" this story are some of the least trusted and have some of the worst SB:MS ratios on the site...which makes this even more suspicious.

We are in the process of fact checking with our sources in London, but again, this is very possibly a coordinated prank until we confirm otherwise.

Thanks,

Patrick

what dick would throw ms at patrick for trying to ensure legitimacy on his site???

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!

8/19/13

TheKing:

NorthSider:

To be clear, all of this talk about "dying due to overwork" is not at all confirmed.

Not trying to be a dick, but you're coming off a little bit like Captain-Save-A-Bank in this thread.

No, correlation does not imply causation, but pulling three straight all-nighters and doing whatever it takes to make it happen and get your work done (and done right) will take a toll.

I had a friend of mine get an ulcer that really fucked him up from the stress and hours. People's health gets affected big time and senior people often really don't give a shit about anything other than if you turned their comments.

Sorry some of us are skeptical that an INTERN would be required to pull 3 straight all-nighters. The point Northsider was making is that you don't actually know the circumstances of the death. Hell, he may have simply pulled one and had some unfortunate complication. Three all-nighters is insane for anyone, let alone an intern with responsibilities more limited than those of his analysts and associates.

8/19/13

CAinPE:

Even though so many people have "confirmed" this, the number of users having 1-15 points commenting/confirming on this thread is suspiciously high. If this is a prank, it's beyond disgusting.

Probably because people are hearing the news (either on bloomberg or through the grapevine), googling it, and finding their way here - also because many people in the industry prefer to keep a low profile (and hence low post counts) on wso

8/19/13
8/19/13

This is potentially horrible. I find it believable. A few years ago an Associate at Skadden passed away from being overworked. So as sad as it may be I don't find this to be unrealistic.
http://abovethelaw.com/2011/06/in-re-the-passing-o...

Also, I think that as much as Associates/VPs can layer on work, it is the culture amongst the analysts that has to change. Site such as WSO perpetuate (and don't get me wrong WSO is great) this culture of people insinuating that you have to work insane hours to get offers/promoted/top bucket. Its an arms race amongst analysts and if everyone tapered back than everyone would benefit. I know plenty of people that didn't work themselves to death and crushed it. People need to stop thinking that pulling insane hours is a must/badge of honor and should only be done when 100% needed. Hopefully some good can come of this and the culture starts changing.

8/19/13

I didn't say anything before because I didn't want to be part of the craziness for obvious reasons, but since it's on bbg I guess there's no point anymore. It's been making the rounds through junior people's emails in London. I heard the story from 3 different people at other banks and I called a friend at ML who confirmed, so this is clearly true.

My thoughts are with the family. Poor kid. This is absolutely appalling.

8/19/13

SonnyZH:

Maximus Decimus Meridius:

I didn't say anything before because I didn't want to be part of the craziness for obvious reasons, but since it's on bbg I guess there's no point anymore. It's been making the rounds through junior people's emails. I heard the story from 3 different people at other banks and I called a friend at ML who confirmed, so this is clearly true.

My thoughts are with the family. Poor kid. This is absolutely appalling.

I'm guessing from your post you know more or less what the causes were for the kid?

I don't, and I don't think anyone does until the police does their job. But after hearing the story from different people and the death being confirmed I'm starting to believe all of it, but I shouldn't have said what I said, which is why I edited my post, I would appreciate if you edited yours...

8/19/13
8/19/13

Maximus Decimus Meridius:

x

Poor family. Wonder what the next steps are...

The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.
8/19/13

ke18sb:

This is potentially horrible. I find it believable. A few years ago an Associate at Skadden passed away from being overworked. So as sad as it may be I don't find this to be unrealistic.

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/06/in-re-the-passing-o...

Also, I think that as much as Associates/VPs can layer on work, it is the culture amongst the analysts that has to change. Site such as WSO perpetuate (and don't get me wrong WSO is great) this culture of people insinuating that you have to work insane hours to get offers/promoted/top bucket. Its an arms race amongst analysts and if everyone tapered back than everyone would benefit. I know plenty of people that didn't work themselves to death and crushed it. People need to stop thinking that pulling insane hours is a must/badge of honor and should only be done when 100% needed. Hopefully some good can come of this and the culture starts changing.

I agree with most of what you are saying...although I don't think WSO "glorifies banking" or insinuates anything, I think that is the reality that is out there. If you think you can duck out of a Summer Analyst stint early and still get a position nowadays, I hate to break it to you, but it's not the real world. That doesn't mean it's a good trend or that they SHOULD be doing back to back all nighters or working 100 hour weeks. I think the arms race you mentioned is very very real and can be dangerous when taken to extreme levels, but I don't think it is something that can be changed overnight (especially when there are people lined up ready to step in if you are not able to hack it)...

But right now we know very little about what actually happened here, so before we all jump to conclusions let's see if more comes to light about this sad story. Anyway, maybe this will serve as a reminder that you need to protect yourself from the potential health impacts of working 100+hours per week and when to draw the line and just say no.

I remember working 41 hours straight once and I was delirious at the end...I'm sure many of us on here have stories like this and while painful, they didn't result in such a tragic loss. Again, condolences to his family and friends.

8/19/13

My thoughts go out to his family & friends.

Rest in Peace.

8/19/13

I totally agree. Also, when I said WSO, I don't mean the site so much as user generated content. My apologies, I should have made that more clear. The site itself is a great tool for the industry; however, I do think that a small share of user generated content tends glamorize the long hours and perpetuate the culture - that's just my opinion. Also, of course there are times when you need to grid it out, we've all been there, I'm more so referring to the late night face time when there is really no purpose and analysts feel they need to be there when really don't have much going on.

WallStreetOasis.com:

I agree with most of what you are saying...although I don't think WSO "glorifies banking" or insinuates anything, I think that is the reality that is out there. If you think you can duck out of a Summer Analyst stint early and still get a position nowadays, I hate to break it to you, but it's not the real world. That doesn't mean it's a good trend or that they SHOULD be doing back to back all nighters or working 100 hour weeks. I think the arms race you mentioned is very very real and can be dangerous when taken to extreme levels, but I don't think it is something that can be changed overnight (especially when there are people lined up ready to step in if you are not able to hack it)...

But right now we know very little about what actually happened here, so before we all jump to conclusions let's see if more comes to light about this sad story. Anyway, maybe this will serve as a reminder that you need to protect yourself from the potential health impacts of working 100+hours per week and when to draw the line and just say no.

I remember working 41 hours straight once and I was delirious at the end...I'm sure many of us on here have stories like this and while painful, they didn't result in such a tragic loss. Again, condolences to his family and friends.

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8/19/13

The sad thing is that their really is nothing in this business that really, truly requires pushing people to work those kind of hours. Most of the 4 AM, 5 AM, 6 AM nights that I have had were caused by rediculous requests by seniors that could wait till tomorrow, unnecessary turns by seniors resulting in frivolous comments or a senior banker not having the balls to tell the client that 'first thing in the morning' is not always the most neccessary deadline.

I have worked for plenty of guys who have the competence and confidence to not require their junior folks to meet deadlines like this. Sadly, it looks like it cost this guy his life.

8/19/13

It's on HuffPost now, if anyone is still wondering whether it's true or not:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/19/moritz-er...

Currently: becoming a clinical psychologist... yep, I quit finance
Previously: M&A consulting (Big 4), M&A banking (MM), business research (HBS)

8/19/13

Hours are imposed by seniors, not juniors, at least in london. Americans are crazy face time addicted work aholics at all levels, which is reflected on wso which is very American.

8/19/13

FormerHornetDriver:

The sad thing is that their really is nothing in this business that really, truly requires pushing people to work those kind of hours. Most of the 4 AM, 5 AM, 6 AM nights that I have had were caused by rediculous requests by seniors that could wait till tomorrow, unnecessary turns by seniors resulting in frivolous comments or a senior banker not having the balls to tell the client that 'first thing in the morning' is not always the most neccessary deadline.

I have worked for plenty of guys who have the competence and confidence to not require their junior folks to meet deadlines like this. Sadly, it looks like it cost this guy his life.

This is 1,000% fact. So many dumb requests with unnecessary turnaround times that absolutely crush your will. That, and it's always like "sure thing, we'll have it to you first thing in the morning, and we'll also do this, this, and this..."

Just unnecessary work all around that brutalizes people.

8/19/13

WallStreetOasis.com:

Just for clarification, this is NOT confirmed. Unfortunately, the users that are "confirming" this story are some of the least trusted and have some of the worst SB:MS ratios on the site...which makes this even more suspicious.

We are in the process of fact checking with our sources in London, but again, this is very possibly a coordinated prank until we confirm otherwise.

Thanks,

Patrick

It is definitely not a prank.
I heard about it first saturday.

8/19/13

peinvestor2012:

Sorry some of us are skeptical that an INTERN would be required to pull 3 straight all-nighters. The point Northsider was making is that you don't actually know the circumstances of the death. Hell, he may have simply pulled one and had some unfortunate complication. Three all-nighters is insane for anyone, let alone an intern with responsibilities more limited than those of his analysts and associates.

Thank you for your sanity.

This is a ludicrous thread given the dearth of actual details. Not a single person on this thread has any idea whatsoever what happened in this situation. The fact that this has devolved into a woe-is-me spite-fest about IB is a testament to how blood-thirsty the world is for every last drop of sensationalism that can be squeezed out of every story.

Before we turn this tragedy into an emblem of the cruelty of IB hours, how about we - you know - actually wait to hear what happened. Before we start suggesting that people ought to sue or someone ought to be prosecuted, let's find out the circumstances. Not every death is a conspiracy.

By the law of large numbers, unfortunate deaths are bound to occur every so often among a group of thousands of 21 year-old interns around the globe. It sickens me that people insist on being so opportunistic. Just because someone died doesn't give you the authority to parade your own agenda under the guise of sympathy.

Here's to hoping that things are sorted out by the proper authorities and that the family gets the closure they deserve.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/19/13

FormerHornetDriver:
Sadly, it looks like it cost this guy his life.

Unless you have some undisclosed informant: No. It doesn't. Can we stop the hollow speculation in this thread?

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/19/13

Reading the guys Seelio page is sad:

"Therefore, I really want to move something in life. Profound injustices and inequalities are a result of the
growing divergence in wealth. I want to contribute to build a fairer, more peaceful, more humane world
of greater solidarity. This may sound naive and presumptuous but I want to give it a try at the very least
even though I am likely to fail. That is what my character is all about. People discouraging me shall not
keep me from trying to fulfill my dreams and desires in life."

As a intern working in London, living in the same building as Moritz was, this news really is shocking to me. Kind of puts it all in perspective.

RIP.

8/19/13
8/19/13

No matter the cause, this is extremely sad. RIP.

"When you stop striving for perfection, you might as well be dead."

8/19/13

NorthSider:

FormerHornetDriver:

Sadly, it looks like it cost this guy his life.

Unless you have some undisclosed informant: No. It doesn't. Can we stop the hollow speculation in this thread?

what do you think happens? Police comes out saying it was/was not the consequence of long IB hours? Would that be the point when it's more that just "hollow speculation"?

Whether you think you can or you think you can't, your're right. - Henry Ford

8/19/13

dr.schulz:

what do you think happens? Police comes out saying it was/was not the consequence of long IB hours? Would that be the point when it's more that just "hollow speculation"?

What? I think everyone in this thread should wait for the police to disclose the cause of death before spewing vitriol that implicates other people as being a involved in and/or a key cause of this tragic death.

As per usual, we all love to bypass investigations, trails, etc. in favor of delivering our own groundless, factless judgments about who ought to be blamed. As if that somehow helps the situation.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

In reply to NorthSider
8/19/13

I'm curious as to why you aren't getting frustrated with the posters who are commenting that it must have been drugs/caffeine/etc as the cause of the death but only with the posters who are commenting that it must have been the hours?

I agree with your point that everyone needs to wait to hear what happened, but it seems as though you are still siding with those who say it couldn't have been the bank's fault.

Why haven't you made a comment against the posters who think it was drugs/substance abuse like the one below you made against the posters who blame the bank:

"Before we turn this tragedy into an emblem of the cruelty of IB hours, how about we - you know - actually wait to hear what happened. Before we start suggesting that people ought to sue or someone ought to be prosecuted, let's find out the circumstances. Not every death is a conspiracy."

8/19/13

It is spreading:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2397527/Ba...Merrill-Lynch-intern-Moritz-Erhardt-dead-working-long-hours.html

8/19/13
8/19/13

socman:

I'm curious as to why you aren't getting frustrated with the posters who are commenting that it must have been drugs/caffeine/etc as the cause of the death but only with the posters who are commenting that it must have been the hours?

I agree with your point that everyone needs to wait to hear what happened, but it seems as though you are still siding with those who say it couldn't have been the bank's fault.

Why haven't you made a comment against the posters who think it was drugs/substance abuse like the one below you made against the posters who blame the bank:

"Before we turn this tragedy into an emblem of the cruelty of IB hours, how about we - you know - actually wait to hear what happened. Before we start suggesting that people ought to sue or someone ought to be prosecuted, let's find out the circumstances. Not every death is a conspiracy."

Because the people who are suggesting it was substance abuse aren't accusing people of being culpable for his death. Both are nothing more than idle speculation, but one has an impact on the people proximate to the situation.

How often in the age of the internet do we hear of people being wrongfully implicated by the media / bloggers / etc.? Do you remember the Boston bombings, when Reddit had already "discovered the identity of the bomber", whose likeness was spread throughout the internet only for it later to be reported that he had died months earlier? Or when the wrong Sandy Hook shooter was erroneously reported, whose Facebook photos were spread throughout the internet before he posted "I'm on a bus right now"?

Everyone needs instant answers, and everyone wants to get their piece of the drama. Unfortunately for those in close proximity to tragic circumstances, that means millions of internet sheep preemptively blaming you for something for which you were clearly not culpable.

Let me also remark that if those suggesting this was a drug-related death were posting rants lambasting the "drug culture", or pushing some political agenda about how we should have stricter controls on drugs, etc., I would be equally sickened. Opportunism is just unjustifiable in this situation.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/19/13

magnum:

It is spreading:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2397527/Ba...

Fantastic. Here we go...

Commence an onslaught of half-baked journalism quoting anonymous first-time WallStreetOasis users as a source to scandalize a contextless event. Just wait until Reddit starts posting the names and email addresses of Erhardt's superiors. That way they can get thousands of hate mail messages before we have any information whatsoever re: cause of death.

This is precisely what I have been advocating against.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/19/13

Since when have anonymous posters on WSO become credible sources of information for big media outlets?
Journalism nowadays disgusts me.

Currently: becoming a clinical psychologist... yep, I quit finance
Previously: M&A consulting (Big 4), M&A banking (MM), business research (HBS)

8/19/13

Agree with NorthSider. Despite all "reports" of over working, for all we know he could've slipped in the shower and hit is head. Very unlikely, but just as plausible as any other until we have real facts.

People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for freedom of thought which they seldom use.

In reply to Anihilist
8/19/13

Anihilist:

Agree with NorthSider. Despite all "reports" of over working, for all we know he could've slipped in the shower and hit is head. Very unlikely, but just as plausible as any other until we have real facts.

Exactly. All of this is equally plausible.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

In reply to chicandtoughness
8/19/13

chicandtoughness:

Since when have anonymous posters on WSO become credible sources of information for big media outlets?

Journalism nowadays disgusts me.

Everyone feels the need to be a part of the scandal. Therefore, everything that sounds newsworthy must involve a scandal. And anyone is a credible source of information. After all, you're just reported what was said on another website!

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/19/13

This is going to be interesting to see how the legal proceedings go from here. He might have signed some non trial clause, however I am pretty sure his parents will not settle out of court.

To those whom think you don't die because of work, tell that to all of those whom have died in active combat, have fallen to their deaths erecting buildings, etc. Before you open your mouths I would recommend you don't.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

8/19/13

Firstly, terrible news. I myself endured a 50 some hour adderall binge and I thought I was going to have a heart attack, to imagine 72 hours would be insane.

Also, I'm astonished that WSO was quoted in an actual news article, especially from such a user (though I have no more prestige).

In reply to heister
8/19/13

heister:

This is going to be interesting to see how the legal proceedings go from here. He might have signed some non trial clause, however I am pretty sure his parents will not settle out of court.

Tally up another who assumes the bank is at fault.

To those whom think you don't die because of work, tell that to all of those whom have died in active combat, have fallen to their deaths erecting buildings, etc. Before you open your mouths I would recommend you don't.

What?? We're comparing investment banking to active military duty and high-rise construction work? No one is saying you "can't die because of work". In fact, long hours may very well have played a part in this unfortunate event! But until we have any information off of which to make some assessment, people on this thread are just feeding the controversy-thirsty press.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

In reply to NorthSider
8/19/13

NorthSider:

heister:

This is going to be interesting to see how the legal proceedings go from here. He might have signed some non trial clause, however I am pretty sure his parents will not settle out of court.

Tally up another who assumes the bank is at fault.

To those whom think you don't die because of work, tell that to all of those whom have died in active combat, have fallen to their deaths erecting buildings, etc. Before you open your mouths I would recommend you don't.

What?? We're comparing investment banking to active military duty and high-rise construction work? No one is saying you "can't die because of work". In fact, long hours may very well have played a part in this unfortunate event! But until we have any information off of which to make some assessment, people on this thread are just feeding the controversy-thirsty press.

Assumption is a non factor, culpability is totally obvious. Could he have had underlying conditions? Sure.
Could he have taken drugs? Sure.
However there is no way the bank can totally deny any wrong doing and responsibility for working their interns harder than the Navy Seals do.

Also many posters on the 1st page said its impossible to die because of work. So yea, people do think its impossible to die because of work.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

8/19/13

It's a tragic story, but I'm convinced that we're not seeing the full picture. Whatever the reasons may be, any death is sad and we're not adding any value by whipping up controversy and speculation.
This thread will rapidly descend into a tirade of bank hatred and work/life bragging/hating if it goes any further.

In reply to heister
8/19/13

heister:

NorthSider:
heister:

This is going to be interesting to see how the legal proceedings go from here. He might have signed some non trial clause, however I am pretty sure his parents will not settle out of court.

Tally up another who assumes the bank is at fault.

To those whom think you don't die because of work, tell that to all of those whom have died in active combat, have fallen to their deaths erecting buildings, etc. Before you open your mouths I would recommend you don't.

What?? We're comparing investment banking to active military duty and high-rise construction work? No one is saying you "can't die because of work". In fact, long hours may very well have played a part in this unfortunate event! But until we have any information off of which to make some assessment, people on this thread are just feeding the controversy-thirsty press.

Assumption is a non factor, culpability is totally obvious. Could he have had underlying conditions? Sure.

Could he have taken drugs? Sure.

However there is no way the bank can totally deny any wrong doing and responsibility for working their interns harder than the Navy Seals do.


Also many posters on the 1st page said its impossible to die because of work. So yea, people do think its impossible to die because of work.

Do you realize that you have absolutely no idea how he died? Because you don't seem to. Do you understand that it's possible he simply slipped in the shower? Would you find the bank culpable for that?

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

In reply to heister
8/19/13

heister:

NorthSider:
heister:

This is going to be interesting to see how the legal proceedings go from here. He might have signed some non trial clause, however I am pretty sure his parents will not settle out of court.

Tally up another who assumes the bank is at fault.

To those whom think you don't die because of work, tell that to all of those whom have died in active combat, have fallen to their deaths erecting buildings, etc. Before you open your mouths I would recommend you don't.

What?? We're comparing investment banking to active military duty and high-rise construction work? No one is saying you "can't die because of work". In fact, long hours may very well have played a part in this unfortunate event! But until we have any information off of which to make some assessment, people on this thread are just feeding the controversy-thirsty press.

Assumption is a non factor, culpability is totally obvious. Could he have had underlying conditions? Sure.

Could he have taken drugs? Sure.

However there is no way the bank can totally deny any wrong doing and responsibility for working their interns harder than the Navy Seals do.


Also many posters on the 1st page said its impossible to die because of work. So yea, people do think its impossible to die because of work.

Did you really just say that a bank made an intern work harder than navy seals? Pleaaaassse, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. I get it, bankers work hard but to try to say that it as physically or mentally taxing as special operations training is completely ridiculous.

In reply to NorthSider
8/19/13

NorthSider:

heister:
NorthSider:
heister:

This is going to be interesting to see how the legal proceedings go from here. He might have signed some non trial clause, however I am pretty sure his parents will not settle out of court.

Tally up another who assumes the bank is at fault.

To those whom think you don't die because of work, tell that to all of those whom have died in active combat, have fallen to their deaths erecting buildings, etc. Before you open your mouths I would recommend you don't.

What?? We're comparing investment banking to active military duty and high-rise construction work? No one is saying you "can't die because of work". In fact, long hours may very well have played a part in this unfortunate event! But until we have any information off of which to make some assessment, people on this thread are just feeding the controversy-thirsty press.

Assumption is a non factor, culpability is totally obvious. Could he have had underlying conditions? Sure.

Could he have taken drugs? Sure.

However there is no way the bank can totally deny any wrong doing and responsibility for working their interns harder than the Navy Seals do.



Also many posters on the 1st page said its impossible to die because of work. So yea, people do think its impossible to die because of work.

Do you realize that you have absolutely no idea how he died? Because you don't seem to. Do you understand that it's possible he simply slipped in the shower? Would you find the bank culpable for that?

Do you have any idea what happens with extreme sleep deprivation? I'm guessing you have no idea. But random and total loss of consciousness is a common side effect. So lets say he loss consciousness while in the shower and fell and broke his neck. Well lets see, why would that have happened? Hmmm....?

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

In reply to Ranger375
8/19/13

Ranger375:

heister:
NorthSider:
heister:

This is going to be interesting to see how the legal proceedings go from here. He might have signed some non trial clause, however I am pretty sure his parents will not settle out of court.

Tally up another who assumes the bank is at fault.

To those whom think you don't die because of work, tell that to all of those whom have died in active combat, have fallen to their deaths erecting buildings, etc. Before you open your mouths I would recommend you don't.

What?? We're comparing investment banking to active military duty and high-rise construction work? No one is saying you "can't die because of work". In fact, long hours may very well have played a part in this unfortunate event! But until we have any information off of which to make some assessment, people on this thread are just feeding the controversy-thirsty press.

Assumption is a non factor, culpability is totally obvious. Could he have had underlying conditions? Sure.

Could he have taken drugs? Sure.

However there is no way the bank can totally deny any wrong doing and responsibility for working their interns harder than the Navy Seals do.



Also many posters on the 1st page said its impossible to die because of work. So yea, people do think its impossible to die because of work.

Did you really just say that a bank made an intern work harder than navy seals? Pleaaaassse, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. I get it, bankers work hard but to try to say that it as physically or mentally taxing as special operations training is completely ridiculous.

Physically? Actually yes. In Seal training operators have to complete a 72 hour period with 30 min of sleep per day. Seems pretty close to what this kid went through. Just because he isn't running 20 miles with a fully loaded pack doesn't mean he isn't being pushed physically.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

In reply to heister
8/19/13

heister:

Do you have any idea what happens with extreme sleep deprivation? I'm guessing you have no idea. But random and total loss of consciousness is a common side effect. So lets say he loss consciousness while in the shower and fell and broke his neck. Well lets see, why would that have happened? Hmmm....?

No, but I sure am glad I have you to inform me. You obviously already have your mind made up, despite the utter lack of information.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

In reply to NorthSider
8/19/13

NorthSider:

heister:

Do you have any idea what happens with extreme sleep deprivation? I'm guessing you have no idea. But random and total loss of consciousness is a common side effect. So lets say he loss consciousness while in the shower and fell and broke his neck. Well lets see, why would that have happened? Hmmm....?

No, but I sure am glad I have you to inform me. You obviously already have your mind made up, despite the utter lack of information.


I have not made up my mind, nor does it personally affect me. I am just merely saying that this will more than likely be a major turning point in how banks can treat their employees.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

8/19/13

This is pure nonesense. Not that someone died (although I'm doubtful of that also) but that it was because of working too much.

1. you can stay up for 3 days and take a variety of substances to do so, without dying; I'm living, breathing proof of that
2. it is NEVER expected that you work 3 straight all nighters; I've been working on Wall Street longer than most have you have been posting on WSO, and you just DO NOT get worked like that; you work hard, and people are sometimes inconsiderate assholes, but they are not unreasonable if for no other reason out of self-interest, because after your 2nd all nighter your work quality is going to be pure shit
3. interns just aren't important enough to have to work three straight all nighters; almost all instances where I've had to work inhumane hours/days it was self-inflicted... as in I was eager to be on a particular deal so I got myself staffed on it despite already having a full plate

My point is not that this person did or did not die, or that they do or do not exist, its that its highly unlikely that someone will die from not sleeping for 3 days, even when using a normal amount of substances, investment banking doesn't work you to that level, and if you do work to that level its not only on your own accord, but its also most likely behind the back of your superiors who would tell you to chill out.

In sum: being a summer intern did not kill this person; whether they exist or not.

In reply to heister
8/19/13

heister:

Ranger375:
heister:
NorthSider:
heister:

This is going to be interesting to see how the legal proceedings go from here. He might have signed some non trial clause, however I am pretty sure his parents will not settle out of court.

Tally up another who assumes the bank is at fault.

To those whom think you don't die because of work, tell that to all of those whom have died in active combat, have fallen to their deaths erecting buildings, etc. Before you open your mouths I would recommend you don't.

What?? We're comparing investment banking to active military duty and high-rise construction work? No one is saying you "can't die because of work". In fact, long hours may very well have played a part in this unfortunate event! But until we have any information off of which to make some assessment, people on this thread are just feeding the controversy-thirsty press.

Assumption is a non factor, culpability is totally obvious. Could he have had underlying conditions? Sure.

Could he have taken drugs? Sure.

However there is no way the bank can totally deny any wrong doing and responsibility for working their interns harder than the Navy Seals do.



Also many posters on the 1st page said its impossible to die because of work. So yea, people do think its impossible to die because of work.

Did you really just say that a bank made an intern work harder than navy seals? Pleaaaassse, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. I get it, bankers work hard but to try to say that it as physically or mentally taxing as special operations training is completely ridiculous.

Physically? Actually yes. In Seal training operators have to complete a 72 hour period with 30 min of sleep per day. Seems pretty close to what this kid went through. Just because he isn't running 20 miles with a fully loaded pack doesn't mean he isn't being pushed physically.


Of course bankers work hard - I never said they don't. You said they work harder than Navy Seals which is ludicrous. The comparison is a terrible one and banking (even if 3 days in the office with no sleep) cannot even begin to compare to the physical and mental stress brought on by sleep deprivation + food deprivation + getting hazed 24 hours a day with sand up your ass. Yes, bankers work really hard which can be very taxing, but no, they do not work as hard as navy seals.
8/19/13

In Japan and Korea, work death (kaisha shi) is a recognized cause of death. The company is expected to pay the family since they were the ones controlling the worker's hours.

I dont see how its any different here. So he might have had some underlying condition/drug abuse but both of them would have been made worse by the unreasonable hours, e.g. 3 all nighters. The fact you need to be in perfect shape to handle those hours shows how fucked up they are.

I would hope this would be a wake up call for the industry but i know they'll forget about it with a new cohort of kids and a new year end bonus goal.

8/19/13

This thread, the conjecture associated with it, the event itself, 99% of the people posting here, and the journalists that thought this was a credible source all fucking suck.

I hate victims who respect their executioners

In reply to Marcus_Halberstram
8/19/13

Marcus_Halberstram:

This is pure nonesense. Not that someone died (although I'm doubtful of that also) but that it was because of working too much.

1. you can stay up for 3 days and take a variety of substances to do so, without dying; I'm living, breathing proof of that

2. it is NEVER expected that you work 3 straight all nighters; I've been working on Wall Street longer than most have you have been posting on WSO, and you just DO NOT get worked like that; you work hard, and people are sometimes inconsiderate assholes, but they are not unreasonable if for no other reason out of self-interest, because after your 2nd all nighter your work quality is going to be pure shit

3. interns just aren't important enough to have to work three straight all nighters; almost all instances where I've had to work inhumane hours/days it was self-inflicted... as in I was eager to be on a particular deal so I got myself staffed on it despite already having a full plate

My point is not that this person did or did not die, or that they do or do not exist, its that its highly unlikely that someone will die from not sleeping for 3 days, even when using a normal amount of substances, investment banking doesn't work you to that level, and if you do work to that level its not only on your own accord, but its also most likely behind the back of your superiors who would tell you to chill out.

In sum: being a summer intern did not kill this person; whether they exist or not.


I completely agree. To anyone who thinks 3 days of sleep deprivation is not possible (or a banker doing so is the peak of all physical exhaustion) has never been to Ranger School. This can be done without taking controlled substances, while hiking 10+ km a day up and down mountains in northern Georgia with a full ruck sack on your back, carrying an M240B machine gun, drinking water out of a stream, and eating 2 MREs a day (only 2 hours apart). Yes, your body will shut itself down, and you will take frequent power naps as short as 10 sec., but you're body will adapt. People do this every day. I know - I've done it.

So, yeah, let's wait to draw conclusions until there is more information. And please spare me the Navy Seal references - if I ever hear someone compare how hard a banker works to a someone in special operations ever again I'm going to lose it.

In reply to Ranger375
8/19/13

Ranger375:

Marcus_Halberstram:

This is pure nonesense. Not that someone died (although I'm doubtful of that also) but that it was because of working too much.

1. you can stay up for 3 days and take a variety of substances to do so, without dying; I'm living, breathing proof of that

2. it is NEVER expected that you work 3 straight all nighters; I've been working on Wall Street longer than most have you have been posting on WSO, and you just DO NOT get worked like that; you work hard, and people are sometimes inconsiderate assholes, but they are not unreasonable if for no other reason out of self-interest, because after your 2nd all nighter your work quality is going to be pure shit

3. interns just aren't important enough to have to work three straight all nighters; almost all instances where I've had to work inhumane hours/days it was self-inflicted... as in I was eager to be on a particular deal so I got myself staffed on it despite already having a full plate

My point is not that this person did or did not die, or that they do or do not exist, its that its highly unlikely that someone will die from not sleeping for 3 days, even when using a normal amount of substances, investment banking doesn't work you to that level, and if you do work to that level its not only on your own accord, but its also most likely behind the back of your superiors who would tell you to chill out.

In sum: being a summer intern did not kill this person; whether they exist or not.

I completely agree. To anyone who thinks 3 days of sleep deprivation is not possible (or a banker doing so is the peak of all physical exhaustion) has never been to Ranger School. This can be done without taking controlled substances, while hiking 10+ km a day up and down mountains in northern Georgia with a full ruck sack on your back, carrying an M240B machine gun, drinking water out of a stream, and eating 2 MREs a day (only 2 hours apart). Yes, you're body will shut itself down, and you will take frequent power naps as short as 10 sec., but you're body will adapt. People do this every day. I know - I've done it.

So, yeah, let's wait to draw conclusions until there is more information. And please spare me the Navy Seal references - if I ever hear someone compare how hard a banker works to a someone in special operations ever again I'm going to lose it.

Cue Heister...

8/19/13

Well this thread went full retard quickly...

"When you stop striving for perfection, you might as well be dead."

8/19/13

I'm not particularly choosing a side here, but for those who are saying 3 all nighters are doable just because *you* have done it or someone else has is faulty logic. Sure, navy seals have been physically trained to withstand such harsh environments. Certain people are simply biologically and physically able to stay somewhat useful after 72 hours of no sleep. However, does that mean 72 hours is not excessive? Does that mean *anyone* can do what you certain people have? No and no. That's like pointing to the guy at the gym left to me right now and saying "he can bench 225 and he is human, so you should be able to as well..."

8/19/13

Shit escalates quickly.

In reply to Marcus_Halberstram
8/19/13

This is so off base. Yea for the vast majority of people under the vast majority of circumstances you can do these hours (maybe even with drugs) and nothing will happen. This is a long tail problem. You 100% can die from exhaustion, from working too hard. Is it extremely rare, of course. But it unequivocally can happen. Way too much machismo in your post as well as others. Right now we don't know why it happened but it is very possible that it did for the reason the people are speculating. There is so much flawed logic in your post. No need to have such a myopic and hard-lined opinion on something that you know very little about, both medically and in terms of this particular situation.

Marcus_Halberstram:

This is pure nonesense. Not that someone died (although I'm doubtful of that also) but that it was because of working too much.

1. you can stay up for 3 days and take a variety of substances to do so, without dying; I'm living, breathing proof of that

2. it is NEVER expected that you work 3 straight all nighters; I've been working on Wall Street longer than most have you have been posting on WSO, and you just DO NOT get worked like that; you work hard, and people are sometimes inconsiderate assholes, but they are not unreasonable if for no other reason out of self-interest, because after your 2nd all nighter your work quality is going to be pure shit

3. interns just aren't important enough to have to work three straight all nighters; almost all instances where I've had to work inhumane hours/days it was self-inflicted... as in I was eager to be on a particular deal so I got myself staffed on it despite already having a full plate

My point is not that this person did or did not die, or that they do or do not exist, its that its highly unlikely that someone will die from not sleeping for 3 days, even when using a normal amount of substances, investment banking doesn't work you to that level, and if you do work to that level its not only on your own accord, but its also most likely behind the back of your superiors who would tell you to chill out.

In sum: being a summer intern did not kill this person; whether they exist or not.

8/19/13

I kind of have a hunch he didn't slip in the shower.

Amount of sympathy I'll have for Bank of America being knee deep in lawsuits? Zero.

Rest in peace, Moritz Erhardt. I'll see you in another life brother.

Sometimes I go about in pity for myself, and all the while a great wind carries me across the sky
In reply to heister
8/19/13

Run for 20 miles with 80 pounds of equipment on you and tell me that you've had a comparable experience in finance.

And for everyone else laying down fault: use your brains. The man was 21 years old working for a top investment firm. The chances of some sort of substance abuse or pre-existing condition being at play are perfectly reasonable assumptions given usual male lifestyle choices, and it isn't defamation of his character to assume so either. I have no doubt that his being overworked contributed to - and was likely one of the biggest factors in - the unfolding of his fate, but we can't act like idiots and say "banks are bad, we gotta stop this!"

Every job has occupational hazards - the aforementioned in this thread SEALs face life and death situations, skydiving instructors face the risks associated with flying and parachuting, and people in finance face the risk of being overworked and the physical implications associated with it. For some people, that means getting fat, whereas for others... things may be worse.

I certainly hope this doesn't devolve into some lawsuit.

Equities are for chumps.

8/19/13

Sure, someone *can* die from working 3 days straight in the same way someone in their 20's *can* die from an unexpected brain anyeurism. My point being, just because he worked really really hard doesn't mean that it *should* have happened, or that BAML was working him like a Navy Seal or that assuming this was even the cause (which we don't know) that they somehow should have foreseen that this was a remote possibility.

I'm not trying to be insensitive by any means - any loss of life at this age is completely tragic, but some of the comparisons, accusations and assertions in this thread are over the line.

In reply to ke18sb
8/19/13

ke18sb:

This is so off base. Yea for the vast majority of people under the vast majority of circumstances you can do these hours (maybe even with drugs) and nothing will happen. This is a long tail problem. You 100% can die from exhaustion, from working too hard. Is it extremely rare, of course. But it unequivocally can happen. Way too much machismo in your post as well as others. Right now we don't know why it happened but it is very possible that it did for the reason the people are speculating. There is so much flawed logic in your post. No need to have such a myopic and hard-lined opinion on something that you know very little about, both medically and in terms of this particular situation.

Marcus_Halberstram:

This is pure nonesense. Not that someone died (although I'm doubtful of that also) but that it was because of working too much.

1. you can stay up for 3 days and take a variety of substances to do so, without dying; I'm living, breathing proof of that

2. it is NEVER expected that you work 3 straight all nighters; I've been working on Wall Street longer than most have you have been posting on WSO, and you just DO NOT get worked like that; you work hard, and people are sometimes inconsiderate assholes, but they are not unreasonable if for no other reason out of self-interest, because after your 2nd all nighter your work quality is going to be pure shit

3. interns just aren't important enough to have to work three straight all nighters; almost all instances where I've had to work inhumane hours/days it was self-inflicted... as in I was eager to be on a particular deal so I got myself staffed on it despite already having a full plate

My point is not that this person did or did not die, or that they do or do not exist, its that its highly unlikely that someone will die from not sleeping for 3 days, even when using a normal amount of substances, investment banking doesn't work you to that level, and if you do work to that level its not only on your own accord, but its also most likely behind the back of your superiors who would tell you to chill out.

In sum: being a summer intern did not kill this person; whether they exist or not.

Re-read my post. Or maybe have someone else read it and explain it to you.

8/19/13

People are over simplifying the situation. We may never know what caused his death, but it is likely not just one factor, and there is most certainly not only one person to blame.

Assuming it is a heart attack like the rumors say, the truth is, it is very likely that lack of sleep and the work environment did contribute to his death. Further, it is also likely that stimulants played a role. As someone working in banking, I can tell you first hand the cut-throat and competitive nature of the work will lead you to do things that are terrible for your body. I have had several very long weeks (130+ hours) where I was near delirium and between the stress and caffiene was experiencing heart palpitations myself.

I am not necessarily saying the bank is to blame - because the truth is doing this job is our choice. However, some of the deflections on this thread are ridiculous. Just because special forces and people in the industry do work like this does not mean its safe. Even if the intern had an underlying heart condition, the job would have contributed and maybe even triggered the issue that occurred.

I think this should serve as a wake up call to everyone working in the industry (not that I think it will make much of a difference). Maybe drinking that extra redbull or popping that extra adderall and staying up for the back to back all nighter just isn't worth it.

In reply to Marcus_Halberstram
8/19/13

2 and 3 are for sure true. The only circumstance I could see someone needing to work this much is if they're the model driver, no one else knows the model/can be staffed on it and negotiations necessitate constantly changing the model. An intern would not be a model driver. An intern is just pitch book grinding/one off tasks in 7 weeks.

Marcus_Halberstram:

ke18sb:

This is so off base. Yea for the vast majority of people under the vast majority of circumstances you can do these hours (maybe even with drugs) and nothing will happen. This is a long tail problem. You 100% can die from exhaustion, from working too hard. Is it extremely rare, of course. But it unequivocally can happen. Way too much machismo in your post as well as others. Right now we don't know why it happened but it is very possible that it did for the reason the people are speculating. There is so much flawed logic in your post. No need to have such a myopic and hard-lined opinion on something that you know very little about, both medically and in terms of this particular situation.

Marcus_Halberstram:

This is pure nonesense. Not that someone died (although I'm doubtful of that also) but that it was because of working too much.

1. you can stay up for 3 days and take a variety of substances to do so, without dying; I'm living, breathing proof of that

2. it is NEVER expected that you work 3 straight all nighters; I've been working on Wall Street longer than most have you have been posting on WSO, and you just DO NOT get worked like that; you work hard, and people are sometimes inconsiderate assholes, but they are not unreasonable if for no other reason out of self-interest, because after your 2nd all nighter your work quality is going to be pure shit

3. interns just aren't important enough to have to work three straight all nighters; almost all instances where I've had to work inhumane hours/days it was self-inflicted... as in I was eager to be on a particular deal so I got myself staffed on it despite already having a full plate

My point is not that this person did or did not die, or that they do or do not exist, its that its highly unlikely that someone will die from not sleeping for 3 days, even when using a normal amount of substances, investment banking doesn't work you to that level, and if you do work to that level its not only on your own accord, but its also most likely behind the back of your superiors who would tell you to chill out.

In sum: being a summer intern did not kill this person; whether they exist or not.

Re-read my post. Or maybe have someone else read it and explain it to you.

8/19/13

fucking senior bankers who have zero clue as to how to manage the deal process efficiently and keep giving out zero value-add bullshit work day in, day out

In reply to WallStreetOasis.com
8/19/13

WallStreetOasis.com:

ke18sb:

This is potentially horrible. I find it believable. A few years ago an Associate at Skadden passed away from being overworked. So as sad as it may be I don't find this to be unrealistic.

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/06/in-re-the-passing-o...

Also, I think that as much as Associates/VPs can layer on work, it is the culture amongst the analysts that has to change. Site such as WSO perpetuate (and don't get me wrong WSO is great) this culture of people insinuating that you have to work insane hours to get offers/promoted/top bucket. Its an arms race amongst analysts and if everyone tapered back than everyone would benefit. I know plenty of people that didn't work themselves to death and crushed it. People need to stop thinking that pulling insane hours is a must/badge of honor and should only be done when 100% needed. Hopefully some good can come of this and the culture starts changing.

I agree with most of what you are saying...although I don't think WSO "glorifies banking" or insinuates anything, I think that is the reality that is out there. If you think you can duck out of a Summer Analyst stint early and still get a position nowadays, I hate to break it to you, but it's not the real world. That doesn't mean it's a good trend or that they SHOULD be doing back to back all nighters or working 100 hour weeks. I think the arms race you mentioned is very very real and can be dangerous when taken to extreme levels, but I don't think it is something that can be changed overnight (especially when there are people lined up ready to step in if you are not able to hack it)...

But right now we know very little about what actually happened here, so before we all jump to conclusions let's see if more comes to light about this sad story. Anyway, maybe this will serve as a reminder that you need to protect yourself from the potential health impacts of working 100+hours per week and when to draw the line and just say no.

I remember working 41 hours straight once and I was delirious at the end...I'm sure many of us on here have stories like this and while painful, they didn't result in such a tragic loss. Again, condolences to his family and friends.


Interesting, that something good could come out of something so terrible.

RIP.

This could be it, sweetheart.

In reply to Ranger375
8/19/13

Ranger375:

Marcus_Halberstram:

This is pure nonesense. Not that someone died (although I'm doubtful of that also) but that it was because of working too much.

1. you can stay up for 3 days and take a variety of substances to do so, without dying; I'm living, breathing proof of that

2. it is NEVER expected that you work 3 straight all nighters; I've been working on Wall Street longer than most have you have been posting on WSO, and you just DO NOT get worked like that; you work hard, and people are sometimes inconsiderate assholes, but they are not unreasonable if for no other reason out of self-interest, because after your 2nd all nighter your work quality is going to be pure shit

3. interns just aren't important enough to have to work three straight all nighters; almost all instances where I've had to work inhumane hours/days it was self-inflicted... as in I was eager to be on a particular deal so I got myself staffed on it despite already having a full plate

My point is not that this person did or did not die, or that they do or do not exist, its that its highly unlikely that someone will die from not sleeping for 3 days, even when using a normal amount of substances, investment banking doesn't work you to that level, and if you do work to that level its not only on your own accord, but its also most likely behind the back of your superiors who would tell you to chill out.

In sum: being a summer intern did not kill this person; whether they exist or not.

I completely agree. To anyone who thinks 3 days of sleep deprivation is not possible (or a banker doing so is the peak of all physical exhaustion) has never been to Ranger School. This can be done without taking controlled substances, while hiking 10+ km a day up and down mountains in northern Georgia with a full ruck sack on your back, carrying an M240B machine gun, drinking water out of a stream, and eating 2 MREs a day (only 2 hours apart). Yes, your body will shut itself down, and you will take frequent power naps as short as 10 sec., but you're body will adapt. People do this every day. I know - I've done it.

So, yeah, let's wait to draw conclusions until there is more information. And please spare me the Navy Seal references - if I ever hear someone compare how hard a banker works to a someone in special operations ever again I'm going to lose it.

Sure, but consider this: Ranger candidates are a select group of applicants in peak physical condition pulled from a larger group of physically active people. Every potential Ranger is already in exemplary physical condition.

Bankers? Not so much.

In reply to Matrick
8/19/13

Matrick:

Doll Armaker:

Can confirm that HR from one of JPM / MS / GS have sent an e-mail round to line managers of IBD interns saying something along the lines of 'don't work your interns too hard for the final weeks'

Oh wow ...

this is kind of funny.. b/c it reminds me of..
a few years ago there was a suicide (few all nighters -> burn out -> then the analyst got chewed out for something, which quickly seemed like the end of the world given his mental state at the time) at Barc/Leh. a close friend's friend was in the same analyst class.

an email? message? went out from HR informing the MD's to not work the analysts too much. you know, especially the ones in the bullpen that watched the guy deteriorate -- and probably hear him get yelled at i.e. the last straw -- before he took his own life.
as a result, everyone in the analyst class got a weekend off. (woohoo!)

it's not worth it guys.

8/20/13

Agreed. There must be a missing piece here. I have done 3 nights in a row. The power naps come in cabs, you pass out on the table, even in the bathroom. Not enough to kill you.

8/20/13

Good on Patrick and his comments in this thread. I do not think WSO should allow random media outlooks to use it as a source, link, mention it till they have an official view on the topic at hand.

Sad nonetheless.

In reply to marcellus_wallace
8/20/13

marcellus_wallace:

Good on Patrick and his comments in this thread. I do not think WSO should allow random media outlooks to use it as a source, link, mention it till they have an official view on the topic at hand.

Sad nonetheless.

Agree. I thought it was pretty ridiculous how rampantly WSO was being cited by the media given the credibility of the information contributed by monkeys on here (no offense)... even more so because atleast many of the monkeys on here know of each other somewhat and can decipher the credible monkeys from the trolls.

Then you've got these hack journalists that have probably only seen WSO a handful of times trolling WSO and using it as a source. Completely irresponsible.

In reply to heister
8/20/13

heister:

I am just merely saying that this will more than likely be a major turning point in how banks can treat their employees.

I am quite certain that it will not be.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

In reply to Marcus_Halberstram
8/20/13

Marcus_Halberstram:

This is pure nonesense. Not that someone died (although I'm doubtful of that also) but that it was because of working too much.

1. you can stay up for 3 days and take a variety of substances to do so, without dying; I'm living, breathing proof of that

2. it is NEVER expected that you work 3 straight all nighters; I've been working on Wall Street longer than most have you have been posting on WSO, and you just DO NOT get worked like that; you work hard, and people are sometimes inconsiderate assholes, but they are not unreasonable if for no other reason out of self-interest, because after your 2nd all nighter your work quality is going to be pure shit

3. interns just aren't important enough to have to work three straight all nighters; almost all instances where I've had to work inhumane hours/days it was self-inflicted... as in I was eager to be on a particular deal so I got myself staffed on it despite already having a full plate

My point is not that this person did or did not die, or that they do or do not exist, its that its highly unlikely that someone will die from not sleeping for 3 days, even when using a normal amount of substances, investment banking doesn't work you to that level, and if you do work to that level its not only on your own accord, but its also most likely behind the back of your superiors who would tell you to chill out.

In sum: being a summer intern did not kill this person; whether they exist or not.

+1. Thank goodness someone still has some sensibility.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

In reply to NYMonkey371
8/20/13

NYMonkey371:

Assuming it is a heart attack like the rumors say, the truth is, it is very likely that lack of sleep and the work environment did contribute to his death. Further, it is also likely that stimulants played a role. As someone working in banking, I can tell you first hand the cut-throat and competitive nature of the work will lead you to do things that are terrible for your body. I have had several very long weeks (130+ hours) where I was near delirium and between the stress and caffiene was experiencing heart palpitations myself.

I'm just going to say this: If you're working so many hours under the influence of enough stimulants to give you heart palpitations - and you're aware of that fact! - then you are undoubtedly a masochist:

1) Nothing you're doing could possibly be worth the amount of stress you're putting your body under

2) No human being would reasonably expect you to work under such conditions, even at the most heartless sweatshops on the street

3) You are in control of your life. Just because someone tells you to work until you are caffeinating your heart into submission doesn't mean that you should / have to. Know your own limitations, and don't let people dictate your decisions

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/20/13

All the articles validated with related bank/school. No one just went off by WSO.

In reply to abacab
8/20/13

abacab:

All the articles validated with related bank/school. No one just went off by WSO.

True, but they also speculated about cause of death by quoting posts from this thread.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/20/13

It's things like that that remind you that working in Investment Banking, perhaps more so than any other graduate career is a struggle against Darwinian natural selection - only the fittest will survive....(the goldman IBD analyst class know what I'm talking about)

You know you've been working too hard when you stop dreaming about bottles of champagne and hordes of naked women, and start dreaming about conditional formatting and circular references.

8/20/13
In reply to Imprimatur
8/20/13

Zweihander:

It's things like that that remind you that working in Investment Banking, perhaps more so than any other graduate career is a struggle against Darwinian natural selection - only the fittest will survive....(the goldman IBD analyst class know what I'm talking about)

Aren't you a warrior.

The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.
8/20/13

I'm here pulling my 50th hour without sleep and my body is going to the shits.

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