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8/19/13

Mod Note (Andy): Update - This story was confirmed earlier confirmed by our sources. Our prayers go out to his family.

From Bloomberg:

Moritz Erhardt, who was on a seven-week pre-graduate program in London, died Aug. 15, Bank of America spokesman John McIvor said by telephone today. The death is being treated as non-suspicious, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Police in London said in a statement.


Moritz Erhardt, who was on a seven-week pre-graduate program in London, died Aug. 15, a Bank of America spokesman said. Source: Seelio via Bloomberg
"He was popular amongst his peers and was a highly diligent intern at our company with a promising future," Bank of America said in its statement. "Our first thoughts are with his family and we send our condolences to them at this difficult time."
Erhardt was found unconscious at Claredale House, a student residential facility in East London. He was pronounced dead at the scene after being treated by paramedics, said the police spokesman, who asked not to be identified, citing agency policy.

Comments (267)

8/20/13

TheKing:

NorthSider - The Great Ombudsman of Our Time

Glad that we have you to shepherd in the WSO gossip column. Forgive me for trying to retain an ounce of truth in this thread that has turned a family's tragedy into a publicity exercise.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

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8/20/13

NorthSider:

TheKing:

NorthSider - The Great Ombudsman of Our Time

Glad that we have you to shepherd in the WSO gossip column. Forgive me for trying to retain an ounce of truth in this thread that has turned a family's tragedy into a publicity exercise.

Get off your high horse.

8/20/13

TheKing:

NorthSider:
TheKing:

NorthSider - The Great Ombudsman of Our Time

Glad that we have you to shepherd in the WSO gossip column. Forgive me for trying to retain an ounce of truth in this thread that has turned a family's tragedy into a publicity exercise.

Get off your high horse.

My horse isn't very high. Just high enough to be above quoting anonymous comments from new users on WSO.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/20/13

NorthSider:

TheKing:
NorthSider:
TheKing:

NorthSider - The Great Ombudsman of Our Time

Glad that we have you to shepherd in the WSO gossip column. Forgive me for trying to retain an ounce of truth in this thread that has turned a family's tragedy into a publicity exercise.

Get off your high horse.

My horse isn't very high. Just high enough to be above quoting anonymous comments from new users on WSO.

I've read enough of your comments on here to know that your horse is plenty high. I'm sure BAML can handle whatever PR comes out of this just fine and doesn't need you working pro bono for them.

8/20/13

Just as I find your comments to be very reasonable, I didn't find the content of Northsider's posts to be out of bounds.

8/20/13

Ipso facto:

Just as I find your comments to be very reasonable, I didn't find the content of Northsider's posts to be out of bounds.

This. Can't we all just get along?

8/20/13

TheKing:

I've read enough of your comments on here to know that your horse is plenty high. I'm sure BAML can handle whatever PR comes out of this just fine and doesn't need you working pro bono for them.

I am not defending "BAML" (whomever that refers to), I am defending the human colleagues of this kid, who are all being presumed to be parties to his demise, as if it's a foregone conclusion that their actions uniquely contributed to his death.

They are not criminals, and they have done nothing to deserve the presumption of guilt that is being thrust upon them by the media / WSO.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/20/13

NorthSider:

TheKing:

I've read enough of your comments on here to know that your horse is plenty high. I'm sure BAML can handle whatever PR comes out of this just fine and doesn't need you working pro bono for them.

I am not defending "BAML" (whomever that refers to), I am defending the human colleagues of this kid, who are all being presumed to be parties to his demise, as if it's a foregone conclusion that their actions uniquely contributed to his death.

They are not criminals, and they have done nothing to deserve the presumption of guilt that is being thrust upon them by the media / WSO.

BAML = BofA Merrill Lynch.

And I think they're going to be ok defending themselves against anonymous internet comments. Have no fear.

8/20/13

TheKing:

BAML = BofA Merrill Lynch.

To clarify, I was asking rhetorically. BAML is a legal fiction, I am defending the people who were proximate to this situation.

And I think they're going to be ok defending themselves against anonymous internet comments. Have no fear.

Yeah, that's great when they remain anonymous comments on an internet message board. It's different when it's on the front page of the Guardian.

I have had at least a half dozen friends outside of finance coming up to me asking if I had heard about the kid that "Bank of America worked to death".

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/20/13

I typically agree with a fair amount of the sentiments you offer on this site but it seems clear that you have lost objectivity here. I don't want to speak for TheKing, as he is fully capable (as a credible journalist might I add) of voicing his own perspective, but as someone who did a few years in banking, I don't think it is unreasonable to think that the working environment had some part to play in this.

Why are you so adamantly holding a torch in their defense here? They don't need your help... they have their PR teams and lawyers. I'm not accusing them of anything, nor is TheKing. What we are saying is that if you look at the current information, there is no way to view this as anything other than a tragic circumstance. We don't know the ultimate cause of death, but you just sound a bit naive when you say that the hours and the stress didn't exacerbate any underlying problem that might have existed. I know hours are often exaggerated and we don't have verifiable facts on any of this; you're right about that. But court cases are tried all the time without having all the facts and the reality is that we most likely will never get the full story.

Football players drop dead during summer workouts due to heat exhaustion, basketball players have collapsed on the court seemingly inexplicably, and these are well documented events. No one is coming out and saying basketball is evil, or that two-a-days in the sun are unnecessary and the NFL should revise their policies on how players practice. They are tragic events, but to try to act like the working environments didn't impact the results is a bit ridiculous. At absolute best case in this circumstance that you are trying to argue... the working environment was neutral. That's the best case... but I just don't see how you as someone who works in this industry isn't able to see this event and wrap your head around the plausibility that the stress and hours likely had a negative impact.

You've been a bit condescending and callous about your whole approach to this thread and it's a bit baffling to be honest. Why are you jumping up to defend a party that needs no help here?

There's a reason why we have organizations like OSHA, you know. Think about that for a second. There is a reason we have labor laws. You can get all self righteous all you want but you and I both know that when you're in the situation and people have power over you and over you're future, it's a lot easier than it sounds to say no to what people are asking you to do, and to put all the responsibility on the poor kid who just wanted to do good work so that he got an offer is pretty unfair.

I think you need a reality check...

8/20/13

This is exactly what I'm saying. Well said.

8/20/13

rufiolove:

I typically agree with a fair amount of the sentiments you offer on this site but it seems clear that you have lost objectivity here. I don't want to speak for TheKing, as he is fully capable (as a credible journalist might I add) of voicing his own perspective, but as someone who did a few years in banking, I don't think it is unreasonable to think that the working environment had some part to play in this.

Why are you so adamantly holding a torch in their defense here? They don't need your help... they have their PR teams and lawyers. I'm not accusing them of anything, nor is TheKing. What we are saying is that if you look at the current information, there is no way to view this as anything other than a tragic circumstance. We don't know the ultimate cause of death, but you just sound a bit naive when you say that the hours and the stress didn't exacerbate any underlying problem that might have existed. I know hours are often exaggerated and we don't have verifiable facts on any of this; you're right about that. But court cases are tried all the time without having all the facts and the reality is that we most likely will never get the full story.

Football players drop dead during summer workouts due to heat exhaustion, basketball players have collapsed on the court seemingly inexplicably, and these are well documented events. No one is coming out and saying basketball is evil, or that two-a-days in the sun are unnecessary and the NFL should revise their policies on how players practice. They are tragic events, but to try to act like the working environments didn't impact the results is a bit ridiculous. At absolute best case in this circumstance that you are trying to argue... the working environment was neutral. That's the best case... but I just don't see how you as someone who works in this industry isn't able to see this event and wrap your head around the plausibility that the stress and hours likely had a negative impact.

You've been a bit condescending and callous about your whole approach to this thread and it's a bit baffling to be honest. Why are you jumping up to defend a party that needs no help here?

There's a reason why we have organizations like OSHA, you know. Think about that for a second. There is a reason we have labor laws. You can get all self righteous all you want but you and I both know that when you're in the situation and people have power over you and over you're future, it's a lot easier than it sounds to say no to what people are asking you to do, and to put all the responsibility on the poor kid who just wanted to do good work so that he got an offer is pretty unfair.

I think you need a reality check...

Well said, +1.

Let's burn the pages, we'll start anew
8/20/13

rufiolove:

I typically agree with a fair amount of the sentiments you offer on this site but it seems clear that you have lost objectivity here. I don't want to speak for TheKing, as he is fully capable (as a credible journalist might I add) of voicing his own perspective, but as someone who did a few years in banking, I don't think it is unreasonable to think that the working environment had some part to play in this.

It's not unreasonable to think, but it is certainly unreasonable to accept as fact, which is the general course of this thread. And thanks to that slant, the media is now parading this kids' death as "caused by 3 back-to-back all-nighters", which is a completely unsubstantiated claim. That is what I object to.

Why are you so adamantly holding a torch in their defense here? They don't need your help... they have their PR teams and lawyers.

Who is they?? BAML, the legal entity? I am defending the human colleagues proximate to this tragedy against the undue presumption of involvement. Their interests are surely not being represented by BAML PR, nor anyone else in this thread with the exception of @Marcus_Halberstram.

What we are saying is that if you look at the current information, there is no way to view this as anything other than a tragic circumstance.

And I couldn't agree more!! I think it has only become more tragic as his photo is being paraded around on Gawker, where he is being trashed by threads of commenters who post crap like this:

Gawker:
Young man with such an obsessive desire to be admitted into the kleptocracy's ruling class that he literally works himself to death?

We don't know the ultimate cause of death, but you just sound a bit naive when you say that the hours and the stress didn't exacerbate any underlying problem that might have existed.

I'm not saying that! Not at all! It's completely possible that the hours exacerbated an underlying condition that contributed to his death. It's also entirely possible that they had no relationship with his death. It's possible he had pulled three straight all-nighters. It's also possible that he had been getting 7 hours of sleep the entire week since his internship was coming to an end. The only people sounding naive, IMO, are those who are so quick to believe the anonymous reports of first-time WSO users.

I know hours are often exaggerated and we don't have verifiable facts on any of this; you're right about that. But court cases are tried all the time without having all the facts and the reality is that we most likely will never get the full story.

And in those cases the accused enjoy the presumption of innocence. Our court system is well-equipped for these cases. WSO / the media is not. That is why I feel it prudent for someone to at least defend those whose perspective is not present.

Football players drop dead during summer workouts due to heat exhaustion, basketball players have collapsed on the court seemingly inexplicably, and these are well documented events. No one is coming out and saying basketball is evil, or that two-a-days in the sun are unnecessary and the NFL should revise their policies on how players practice. They are tragic events, but to try to act like the working environments didn't impact the results is a bit ridiculous. At absolute best case in this circumstance that you are trying to argue... the working environment was neutral. That's the best case... but I just don't see how you as someone who works in this industry isn't able to see this event and wrap your head around the plausibility that the stress and hours likely had a negative impact.

I am fully capable of appreciating its plausibility (even probability!). However, the difference between this story and the heat stroke deaths of football players is that cause of death has been determined! The pseudo-journalism that is going on here is objectionable.

You've been a bit condescending and callous about your whole approach to this thread and it's a bit baffling to be honest.

For that, I apologize, though I would suggest that when you're taking an unpopular position, it's much easier to come off as condescending. I assure you that's not my intention, though I recognize why it might appear that way.

Why are you jumping up to defend a party that needs no help here?

I disagree with the idea that Erhardt's colleagues don't deserve a voice in this thread. I am most certainly not that voice, but I'm happy to at least suggest that those suggesting their culpability are off-base and uninformed.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/20/13

NorthSider:

rufiolove:

I typically agree with a fair amount of the sentiments you offer on this site but it seems clear that you have lost objectivity here. I don't want to speak for TheKing, as he is fully capable (as a credible journalist might I add) of voicing his own perspective, but as someone who did a few years in banking, I don't think it is unreasonable to think that the working environment had some part to play in this.

It's not unreasonable to think, but it is certainly unreasonable to accept as fact, which is the general course of this thread. And thanks to that slant, the media is now parading this kids' death as "caused by 3 back-to-back all-nighters", which is a completely unsubstantiated claim. That is what I object to.

If you are assuming that the all-nighters claim is based purely on WSO then you are wrong. Reporters have claimed to have spoken with some of his fellow interns.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sla...

Let's burn the pages, we'll start anew
8/20/13

Again, not to single you out but... this in no way shape or form says they spoke to BAML interns, let alone interns in his group or that knew him in any way. They talked to INTERNS, just interns. And those interns told them that bankers work long hours, longer than people in S&T or most anything else. And that's it. Then they launch into what WSO said. Dozens of outlets have reported this kind of thing in the past day or two... saying they spoke with "interns" or "young bankers" who said they were often seeing interns work super long hours and they look exhausted and blah blah blah. But it most certainly at no point says that anyone with any connection to this kid himself or BAML or the group within BAML he worked for made those comments about him specifically. So it's just journalists trying to stir the pot and people who don't know any better continuing to perpetuate the stupid rumors. I think we should probably be better than that, but I'm not surprised we aren't.

I hate victims who respect their executioners

8/20/13

BlackHat:
Again, not to single you out but... this in no way shape or form says they spoke to BAML interns, let alone interns in his group or that knew him in any way. They talked to INTERNS, just interns. And those interns told them that bankers work long hours, longer than people in S&T or most anything else. And that's it.

I have no way of knowing who exactly they spoke to or how factual anything is, but the article definitely says that another intern claimed he pulled 8 all-nighters in two weeks.

Let's burn the pages, we'll start anew
8/20/13

rufiolove:
Football players drop dead during summer workouts due to heat exhaustion, basketball players have collapsed on the court seemingly inexplicably, and these are well documented events. No one is coming out and saying basketball is evil, or that two-a-days in the sun are unnecessary and the NFL should revise their policies on how players practice.

Again, to be fair... Yes, they do, every single time. Literally every single time.

I hate victims who respect their executioners

8/21/13

BlackHat:

rufiolove:

Football players drop dead during summer workouts due to heat exhaustion, basketball players have collapsed on the court seemingly inexplicably, and these are well documented events. No one is coming out and saying basketball is evil, or that two-a-days in the sun are unnecessary and the NFL should revise their policies on how players practice.

Again, to be fair... Yes, they do, every single time. Literally every single time.

I cannot speak to the NFL policies on practice conditions, although I can imagine the players are well taken care of simply because of the large financial investment the team makes in each of them, however, around a decade ago the NCAA changed its rules regarding practice conditions and two-a-days. I can speak on this confidently because I was an NCAA football player. Not only does the NCAA limit the amount of hours a team can practice and the number of practices, it states that there cannot be two consecutive days of two-a-day practices.

patternfinder:

Of course, I would just buy in scales.

See my WSO Blog | my AMA

8/20/13

NorthSider:

TheKing:

If the dude worked three straight days without sleep and dropped dead at the end of the third, it isn't simply blind speculation to say that it might've played a role in his death.

No one, save for complete trolls, is arguing that the bank KILLED this person. But, to act as though 72 straight hours didn't play a role is a bit foolish.

The fact that you write these PR-esque posts saying "we can't rush to conclusions" again and again just seems odd. Don't worry bruh, banking isn't going anywhere and nothing will change.

It is truly symptomatic of modern journalism that you think it has been demonstrated that he worked 72 hours straight based on partially-false posts by first-time WSO commenters. You do realize that all of the news articles about this poor kid quote "hawkish2" from WSO as the source for his "3 back-to-back all-nighters". I wonder if hawkish2 realized he would be creating tomorrow's Gawker/Independent/The Sun/CNBC headlines when he signed up for WSO last night.

I'd rather be accused of being PR-esque than promote unconfirmed rumors that have caused this story to become front-page news. You really think his family wanted that?

I think his family would ultimately want closure in time. Closure comes from answers. Spurring speculation on his death- false or not- ultimately brought BofA and his death into the limelight where it otherwise had the potential to be pushed aside. Basically, this sensationalism has already implicated all involved parties and any public reckoning that ensues will only hold those involved to a candle and eventually expose a greater amount of information than it otherwise would.

Basically, what I'm saying is: you're an idiot. Instead of just offering your condolences, you criticize any attempt people make at getting to the bottom of his death (insiders who actually might know something..though maybe not), however faulty.

8/20/13

PutINweRK:

Basically, what I'm saying is: you're an idiot. Instead of just offering your condolences, you criticize any attempt people make at getting to the bottom of his death (insiders who actually might know something..though maybe not), however faulty.

How exactly does blind speculation about CoD qualify as an "attempt at getting to the bottom of his death"? These are people who live thousands of miles away, who have absolutely no context or information other than what is included in this thread, idly tossing out suggestions about what may or may not have contributed to his death.

No one is an idiot here. I just have serious objections to preemptively and potentially falsely implicating other people in his death.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/20/13

NorthSider:

PutINweRK:

Basically, what I'm saying is: you're an idiot. Instead of just offering your condolences, you criticize any attempt people make at getting to the bottom of his death (insiders who actually might know something..though maybe not), however faulty.

How exactly does blind speculation about CoD qualify as an "attempt at getting to the bottom of his death"? These are people who live thousands of miles away, who have absolutely no context or information other than what is included in this thread, idly tossing out suggestions about what may or may not have contributed to his death.

No one is an idiot here. I just have serious objections to preemptively and potentially falsely implicating other people in his death.

How do you know it's blind speculation? If you're referring to what was said on this forum and then quoted in an article, how do you know these people weren't in another branch of BofA, at the london office, even on his team? You're just completely wrong in assuming anything. Laying more information on the table- false or not- is straight dialectics. It's the only way to flush out the truth. If everyone was to follow your logic, the whole world would be silent. Just wrong.

8/20/13

No reason for a college kid to come on here and start calling informed posters idiots. Maybe you don't agree with his approach, but he knows far more than you at this stage, particularly when it comes to banking and long hours.

8/20/13

peinvestor2012:

No reason for a college kid to come on here and start calling informed posters idiots. Maybe you don't agree with his approach, but he knows far more than you at this stage, particularly when it comes to banking and long hours.

Yeah, because analysts are so senior. We're at the top of the food chain. Who gives a fuck if he's a college kid, he made a perfectly reasonable argument.

The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.

8/20/13

peinvestor2012:

No reason for a college kid to come on here and start calling informed posters idiots. Maybe you don't agree with his approach, but he knows far more than you at this stage, particularly when it comes to banking and long hours.

1. How is he any more informed than anyone else? More banana points? HMMMMM? Lmao.

2. Yes, he's clearly shown that he's more knowledgeable than me about the situation by asking everyone to keep quiet.

3. Sure, you know what he knows? You know what I know? Knowing more about banking is really relevant here. Yeah, maybe you should get him to tell me more about the hours while he's at it. Maybe you can too, oh holy one? Show me some new ways to tweak my pitch books?

The fact that your arguments are weaker and the both of you have to infer some kind of condescension by labeling me as a "college student" also infers you attended bovine university, class of 1967.

You're just embarrassing yourself. Stop.

8/20/13

To be fair, NorthSider is right that we can't take this 72 straight hours of work thing as complete and indisputable fact. If that WAS fact, however, then I'd agree with you, but I don't think we have any evidence that it really was, save for some WSO posts and articles corroborating the story from said WSO posts.

I hate victims who respect their executioners

8/20/13

Wow just seen it reported on BBC London News. Unreal. Thoughts are with his family.

8/20/13

The comments in the Huffington Post are disgusting and almost impossible to fathom are not trolls...Some of those people need to look in the mirror to realize who the "real" monsters are. I agree we shouldn't be mindlessly speculating on the cause of death (however probable the guesses may be), but there are a lot of people in there seriously wondering whether BAML put a hit on the kid for "discovering something above his paygrade" or actually emotionless, because they have no sympathies for "monsters" like bankers.

Unreal that someone could seriously think that...didn't realize people were still living in the backlash of 2007/8.

Will await the cause of death to be reported. R.I.P. Moritz.

8/20/13

Scorpion:

The comments in the Huffington Post are disgusting and almost impossible to fathom are not trolls...Some of those people need to look in the mirror to realize who the "real" monsters are. I agree we shouldn't be mindlessly speculating on the cause of death (however probable the guesses may be), but there are a lot of people in there seriously wondering whether BAML put a hit on the kid for "discovering something above his paygrade" or actually emotionless, because they have no sympathies for "monsters" like bankers.

Unreal that someone could seriously think that...didn't realize people were still living in the backlash of 2007/8.

Will await the cause of death to be reported. R.I.P. Moritz.

Truly appalling comments, even from community that reads Huffington Post. Completely ridiculous the amount of people who are A) Clueless to even what investment bankers do, especially interns B) Seem to think that his death was warranted given the fact that he works in IB.

It is very disheartening to see what some of those people can say about the death of a 21 year old kid and seem to vindicate their comments with the stereotypical misconception of what banks / bankers do.

People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for freedom of thought which they seldom use.

8/20/13

I only just realized how shit the press really was... 100% of their sources come from WSO.

The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.

8/20/13

Like every other story, the press completely fucks up. I've seen articles where WSO and another finance blog site were used for 100% of quotes and resources.

They want everyone to imagine greedy 50 year old Caucasians hanging over a poor 21 yr old buried in piles of paper and pitchbooks while they take turns calling him names and beating him with slave whips. Fuck the real story.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." --Abraham Lincoln

8/20/13

Very sad story. Anyone know what team he was in at the time?

8/20/13

When people started comparing banking to navy seals wso hit a new all time low

8/20/13

leveredarb:

When people started comparing banking to navy seals wso hit a new all time low

Is that so? How is making a totally relevant comparison to the amount of stress caused by going non stop for 72 hours straight any different? Sure they work in different environments but 72 hours is 72 hours no matter where you work. When you get to that extreme level of sleep deprivation it doesn't really matter if you are sitting in a chair or are marching through a swamp. The seals might be going through more physical exhaustion however the mental exhaustion is similar. The human body can only cope with so much before it starts to shut down for self preservation.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

8/20/13

heister:
When you get to that extreme level of sleep deprivation it doesn't really matter if you are sitting in a chair or are marching through a swamp.

Just had to save this for everyone to see.

8/20/13

heister:

leveredarb:

When people started comparing banking to navy seals wso hit a new all time low

Is that so? How is making a totally relevant comparison to the amount of stress caused by going non stop for 72 hours straight any different? Sure they work in different environments but 72 hours is 72 hours no matter where you work. When you get to that extreme level of sleep deprivation it doesn't really matter if you are sitting in a chair or are marching through a swamp. The seals might be going through more physical exhaustion however the mental exhaustion is similar. The human body can only cope with so much before it starts to shut down for self preservation.

Seriously dude. You haven't gone 3 days without sleep? Because if you have that's the only reason why you'd so adamantly find that comparison fitting, and if you have then you'd also know that it's not exactly that grueling. Three days is extreme sleep deprivation? Hahaha... try flying an F-35 for 144 straight hours over the Koreas hype on Modafinil with nothing to eat but Cliff bars and Capri Sun.

I hate victims who respect their executioners

8/20/13

leveredarb:

When people started comparing banking to navy seals wso hit a new all time low

Agreed.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/20/13

@NorthSider

NS, before I changed my field of study to Economics, I went through some years at a European med school, where I was also doing some research on cardiac physiology. It is a medical fact that sleep deprivation increases the potential of cardiac arrest tremendously.

In case you don't trust me you can always consult these articles (from the database of the US medical library):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23852444
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23601527

The comparison that was made between SD in Navy Seals and analysts isn't wrong. Just like you were talking about leaving this for the police, I think that you should probably leave physiology for people who know physiology...just saying..

8/20/13

bandeirante:

The comparison that was made between SD in Navy Seals and analysts isn't wrong.

Where did your research suggest this? SD is SD, nobody is denying that fact.

But, when your body is severely deprived of sleep and you are running a black op in hostile territory with an 80 lb pack (example poster threw out), that's not different than sitting at your fucking desk staring at Excel or PPT?

I mean, the difference is quite obvious. There reason there isn't any medical research to prove SD in a Navy Seal on a mission is far more strenuous than a person sitting in a chair 90% of the day is because nobody would ever think it was necessary. It's common sense, from a logic or basic biological standpoint.

8/20/13

My research is supporting the main thesis: SD increases your odds of suffering cardiac arrest.

On the comparison:

If you're working, or trying to, you'll have to involve your brain. We don't know what the average analyst might be doing, but it's safe to say that it's something, well, "analytical" and will therefore require your brain to be very sharp. Now, what happens under SD?

Under SD your brain will basically run in overdrive mode, because it is trying to compensate for the lack of rest.

Now, your brain is the organ which consumes the most energy, so you need even more energy when under SD. (Add in the stress factor and the possible combo of Red Bull/Coffee.)

Basically, doing analytical work under SD is going to simply wear your brain as fast, if not faster, than in the situation of your NAVY seal example. Why? Because he probably does not have to use as much logical reasoning as your average IB analyst.

On top of that, your Navy Seal is also experiencing an adrenaline rush, which will allow him to overcome some of the immediate effect of SD. (Adrenaline can be the cause for some really superhuman phenomena) But adrenaline isn't really common in an IBD room...

So, if you add up some little physiological facts, you'll see that common sense is not the best way to explain medicine.

8/20/13

bandeirante:

@NorthSider

NS, before I changed my field of study to Economics, I went through some years at a European med school, where I was also doing some research on cardiac physiology. It is a medical fact that sleep deprivation increases the potential of cardiac arrest tremendously.

In case you don't trust me you can always consult these articles (from the database of the US medical library):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23852444

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23601527

The comparison that was made between SD in Navy Seals and analysts isn't wrong. Just like you were talking about leaving this for the police, I think that you should probably leave physiology for people who know physiology...just saying..

And that would be terrific reading if there was any evidence whatsoever to imply he died of cardiac arrest.

The only credible suggestion I have heard in the way of CoD is the Independent's claim that Erhardt suffered from epilepsy and a seizure may have been involved in his death.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/20/13

bandeirante:

@NorthSider

NS, before I changed my field of study to Economics, I went through some years at a European med school, where I was also doing some research on cardiac physiology. It is a medical fact that sleep deprivation increases the potential of cardiac arrest tremendously.

In case you don't trust me you can always consult these articles (from the database of the US medical library):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23852444

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23601527

The comparison that was made between SD in Navy Seals and analysts isn't wrong. Just like you were talking about leaving this for the police, I think that you should probably leave physiology for people who know physiology...just saying..

I'm not a fan of Northsiders somewhat arrogant attitude (at least in my opinion) on this site, but I think he is right on point in this thread.

Maybe I missed the part where he refuted that sleep deprivation does not increase risk of cardiac arrest. I dont see him saying that anywhere. if so please quote him. otherwise this would be a strawman.

He is simply saying that we should withhold judgement until we know for sure the actual story. He said nothing further.
And while im sure sleep deprivation.

Not to go off on tangent, but it is very possible that people are wrongly accused of simply because of false emotionally driven and baseless media stories. This situation actually reminds me of a handful of legal cases, where people make assumptions and pass judgement, and actually have no clue.

the stakes here may be as high as someone losing their freedom. that is why NS is 100% correct here. most other people are just straw-manning.

8/20/13

I agree that is not good to jump to unsubstantiated claims, but I think it perfectly reasonable to analyze the situation based on the information we have. Further, I am most certainly NOT going to give BOA the benefit of the doubt given the lack of transparency they are offering.

Further, only through speculation and interest in the story, will more information surrounding his death be uncovered. The truth is BOA and other parties involved are most certainly NOT rushing to release facts about the case (to be honest they are likely doing the opposite). We may never definitively know how many hours he worked for that reason.

Finally, regardless of how many hours this summer analyst worked, this situation still brings to light an important issue within this industry. Even if he personally didn't work 3 near all-nighters, people in the industry do - frequently with the aid of stimulants. Many analysts can attest to that and even have their own personal experience with these hours. Regardless of this story, it is important for us to rememeber the health ramnifications of this job are very real.

8/20/13
8/20/13
8/20/13

First, RIP.

Second, nobody here knows what really happened yet.

Third, I have never worked in investment banking, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. In my opinion, regardless of whether overworking was the cause, a contributing factor, or not related at all to this young man's death, it is time for the culture of banking to change. It has been known for a long time that banks prey on (often) insecure young people who are willing to sacrifice significantly for 'prestige' or something similar. To me, the entire exercise of working extreme hours (which are often unproductive/face time), is pointless and kind of sad. 80 hours of work in a week is unthinkable. Knowing that people do significantly more than that is mind boggling.

The culture of torturous/inhumane hours is something that is perpetuated by people who think that youngsters should have to go through what they went through. (very similar to a frat hazing). I think of this situation as the same mindset as child abuse (you were abused as a kid and you become an abuser as an adult). Someone needs to break the cycle. If you are in any position to make the change, please do so.

8/20/13

SirTradesaLot:

Third, I have never worked in investment banking, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. In my opinion, regardless of whether overworking was the cause, a contributing factor, or not related at all to this young man's death, it is time for the culture of banking to change. It has been known for a long time that banks prey on (often) insecure young people who are willing to sacrifice significantly for 'prestige' or something similar. To me, the entire exercise of working extreme hours (which are often unproductive/face time), is pointless and kind of sad. 80 hours of work in a week is unthinkable. Knowing that people do significantly more than that is mind boggling.

The culture of torturous/inhumane hours is something that is perpetuated by people who think that youngsters should have to go through what they went through. (very similar to a frat hazing). I think of this situation as the same mindset as child abuse (you were abused as a kid and you become an abuser as an adult). Someone needs to break the cycle. If you are in any position to make the change, please do so.

Wholeheartedly agree.

Let's burn the pages, we'll start anew
8/20/13

This is terrible. May he rest in peace.

Bachelor of Commerce at The University of Melbourne (Australia)

8/20/13

...And two hours later, this thread is a complete shit show. Honestly, everyone who's arguing on this thread seems to be kind of saying the same thing, but not comprehending each other's point. Regardless of who's "right" or "wrong", all of the arguments are extremely petty for arguing the nuances of the circumstances of this poor kid's death. While it is truly sad that this kid died so young, no rational argument or vindication will change how this unfolds or how it actually happened. For the sake of WSO, I hope that none of his family, friends, or relatives ever refer to this sight from the media's citations and read this thread.

People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for freedom of thought which they seldom use.

8/20/13

This is really sad. It sucks that it happened. I hope it helps people become more sensitive to the company around them.

RIP

8/21/13

21-year-old. 21. RIP

8/21/13

What a sad event. This certainly shows that the Associates / VP's need to take more responsibility in sending interns (and Analysts) home after a certain point which, in my experience, is typically done so something must have failed. I guess a problem is that interns in a pool get thrown around to a lot of different teams where each team does not know how hard that intern has already been worked - unless they communicate but I certainly understand that some people do not want to 'complain'. I wonder if he was in a pool or in a team - don't know what BoA-ML did in London this summer. RIP

8/21/13

RIP. 21 and so bright, what a shame.
Lesson: Always listen to your body. If it tells you to stop now, do it.
Nothing is worth risking your life over.

I dont work in IB but I see so many of my co-workers, even young, living unhealthy lifestyles including drinking copious amounts of coke/energy drinks, eating trash foods, etc...And lasting on sugar/coffein highs...

Its going to catch up to you. If you want to live LONG in any sedentary office environment with lots of mental stress: you need to keep your body extremely healthy.

8/21/13

RIP. Feel terrible for his family.

The argument going on in this thread... ALL of you are saying the same thing - we don't know yet. So can we just let it die down? At least till we know things for sure? Or this thing will just keep going around in circles.

Try and have some empathy for this guy... You don't need to prove that your point is right. Opinions differ all the time. But at times what matters is to take a step back and see what you're arguing about, and then deciding if it's even worth it.

Edit: I admit I'm coming off as rather preachy. But I'm not gonna apologize for it. The argument going on here really needs to be let go.

Read my blog: Bateman Begins

8/21/13
8/22/13
8/23/13

"I like money (as do most females) but love is...great :)"-student
"Perhaps you've failed to take into account my hidden assets"-007
Omnia

8/23/13

You're walking around blind without a cane, pal. A fool and his money are lucky enough to get together in the first place.

Gordon Gekko

8/23/13
8/23/13
8/23/13

I hate victims who respect their executioners

8/24/13

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."

8/24/13

The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.

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