UMich-Ann Arbor on Wall Street
I'm going to be an incoming freshman at UMich next year, and my ultimate goal is to get a job at a BB after graduation.
Obviously, the B-school does well in placing on Wall Street, but I was wondering how the UMich students who didn't go to Ross fare in getting jobs with BB in case I happened to not get into Ross after my freshman year.
I'm guessing that finding jobs from UM in Chicago will be less difficult than finding one in NYC, but how does UM compare to other schools in placement in BB firms?
I would major in financial engineering if I were you, Michigan has a good program. It is MUCH easier than other engineering majors, at least that is the rumor, it is almost like that operations and induistry engineering major (IOE) Idiots of Engineering
My LSA experience:
The Econ department is a joke. At least, that was my experience with the two econ classes I took. Beyond simple. But, I suppose it is a good way to keep your grades up.
The Business school is supposed to be fairly tough, I don't know if that is via curving or what...
Unless you scored a 33 or above on the ACT:
Whatever you do, do NOT TAKE ORGO unless you HAVE TO, and place out of as LITTLE math as possible, retake trig if you have to, but DO NOT use your IB credits to place out of calc I and II..the teachers for calc III are horrific..the orgo and tha math are usually where people get their ass kicked the first year more than anywhere else.
Good luck! Go blue!
I'm taking Calc I again in my freshman year even though I already took it senior year of HS and will probably test out of it. I'm not extremely talented in math, and it'll probably be the only class that will make me grind to get an A in. Could you give me any tips as to how to maximize my chances of getting an A in Calc I?
Ross : non-business UMich
analogous to Stern: NYU CAS
transfer...
I have met more Michigan people than any other public school on the street, that is for sure.
The Economy in MI is for shit, so you might want to consider leaving after graduation, although you might luck out because most folks want to leave the state.
noob - how are you making that comparison with NYU CAS? the OP could in fact go into financial engineering like I suggested. They always need people for that program so it may be easy to get into.
If I might ask, zayn, what are your incoming stats (in/out state, GPA, ACT, etc.) that will clear up very quickly your shot at Ross.
In-State 3.85 GPA 29 ACT
Didn't apply as pre-admit. Going to be in LSA next year. I also plan to leave MI as soon as I graduate.
Okay, yeah the one mistake I made was going in to calc III! I did okay (I think a B+) but those kids who had already had a few semesters of Michigan calc REALLY have a leg up on you.
There is only one way to really do well in math and physics (that I ever found that is), and that is to go to the math learning center (or whatever it is called nowadays). It is in the physics building when I was in school.
People dont want to go because they might as well call the damn thing "the idiot room", but trust me and GO EVERY WEEK. Even if you can do the problems in the book, the exams are VERY different. There will be several GSI's at the learning center, and basically you will have to find one you jive with and they will really teach you.
Also, I found that they tend to "leak" information about what will be on the exams without realizing they are doing it.
But yeah, suck up your pride and start as low as you can in math and you will be fine.
Awesome advice. Did you go to Ross or did you do the finance engineering thing?
chemetovc, whats wrong with the analogy? stern : nyu to ross : non-business u mich makes perfect sense.... nyu has financial engineering too...
zayn,
if you cant get into ross.... major in econ... inflate your gpa as much as possible....get 3.7+ and get some good summer internships...and u should be fine........
financial engineering would be better than econ...but why bother costing your gpa??
in the end.... they see the gpa... they dont see what courses you took until they give you offer anyways....
No, I am a chemical engineer, the ultimate of sadistic majors!
If I had had any CLUE about finance in college, I would have done financial engineering in a heartbeat!
You know that is the real disadvantage of not coming from money/finance, simply not knowing what you could have had.
I think that Seanc is at Michigan, I think he is econ or at Ross, not sure though, he would be a good person to talk to.
Noob I was referring to the fact that there is a lot of stigma attached to non-stern NYU, whereas I have not left that level of distaste for Michigan LSA.
I think that financial engineering would only be about 10% harder than econ, by the way, and the curve cut might be easier.
See, all of Michigan is about the curve, not the classes themselves, and that is what makes it tough.
that is true.... but in the end, its target vs non-target... non-business for nyu and umich will be part of non-target.... so therefore higher gpa and more network will be needed......
Noob that is just not correct, I saw every major bank on north campus, and NO, they were not recruiting for ops.
Zayn, push comes to shove you can just go to the recruiting events for the other schools, I certainly did it!
ChemEto, you've been super helpful. Thanks a bunch
just wondering, isn't the financial engineering in umich a grad program?
No it is undergrad too. At least, it was back in 1998 - 2002.
http://www.engin.umich.edu/departments/ - not there.
http://interpro.engin.umich.edu/fep/ - this says it's a master degree
If your ultimate goal is to be a full-time analyst at a bulge bracket, your best bet is through the business school, so work as hard as you can to get in there.
In the event you don't get into Ross, it's not the end of the world and you don't have to transfer schools to get a bulge bracket job. Econ, mech/electrical engineering, and the financial engineering students can get BB internships, they just have to work harder to break into the recruiting scene. Non-Ross students can go to all the recruiting events, they just can't use the bschool resume/cover letter drop to get interviews, so these majors have to make sure to meet the recruiters after presentations and stay in touch with them.
My personal opinion is that financial engineering would look more impressive on a resume than econ, but you should also consider that you may have to take math through diffeq or something for financial engineering. I'd imagine you only need Calc 2 for Econ to integrate all those curves.
Also from your OP, the Chicago jobs are harder to get than New York, just because there aren't as many spots in those offices. Obviously it varies by firm, but overall it's easier to go to NY than Chicago.
Good luck and congrats.
I'm fascinated by this new "financial engineering" degree.
I get annoyed though when people play up the degree as if it's an "engineering" degree. It's not. It's not even remotely close to an industrial engineering degree. A "financial engineering" degree isn't offered in engineering school. It's offered by business schools or commerce LA&S colleges, right?
This degree has to have hit the mainstream colleges maybe within the past 3-5 years, no? 'cuz I certainly never heard of it before and I'm an old timer :-(
Don't mean to offend... I'm just thinking of a colleague who I can't stand and she's always playing up her fin. eng. degree obnoxiously.
Umm, as an Econ major at Umich, I can personally tell you that it has one of the hardest cirriculums. In recent years, because of the success and popularity of the new "Ross", a surge of new students with dollar bills in their eyes have come to Ann Arbor to compete for an office in New York. More and more students are finding themselves rejected from the Ross program and end up doing the next best thing: Econ. Well, Lorch Hall is starting to overcrowd with students, and micro and macro professors are tightening the curve. Professors bait and switch what they teach in class and what is on the exam just so they can keep a "nice" curve and not have their class be seen as the slacker's A.
I've never heard of Financial Engineering, but there is a Financial Mathematics, which is a pretty respectable major, and if you take it in conjunction with Economics, then you'll look really good on paper. Compared to Ross students, you will have a lot more knowledge about business fundamentals (macro, inter, econometrics, etc.) but won't be as "practical" as BIS, Excel, marketing, etc.
I don't know if you're instate or not, but take a look at the FMI scholar program at Michigan State if you are. Its a program for some of the top business students at Eli Broad. I know everyone this year that wanted a summer internship at a BB got one. Its really not difficult to get into as long as you keep your GPA high (3.8+) your first two years. The preliminary business core classes are a joke so its not hard at all to do. Broad isn't nearly as accredited as Ross but if you're able to get into this program they almost push you into IBanking. Give it a look
http://www.bus.msu.edu/fi/fmi/
from my experience UM lands a few kids at BB, but most of its placement is at T3 and MM.
i know i'm late to this thread, but i can't believe how many people on this thread are talking out of their ass. just to clear some things up...
i only took one upper level econ course and i thought it was relatively easy compared to ioe courses, but that's just anecdotal.
I am an econ and history major. Econ is a joke for the 101 and 102 classes. 401 and 402 both use calc 3 the entire time. Game Theory and Econometrics are the hardest classes I have ever taken, and I'm doing computer science (up through 281) for fun.
UMich LSA Recruiting (Originally Posted: 06/27/2010)
Hey guys,
I was just wondering, do Goldman/Morgan Stanley recruit at UMich LSA for their IBD internships?
No
you asked this same question two days ago and people gave you a response. If your so set on LSA do it and stop asking these forums if your not going to take anyone's advice. If you want banking bad enough and work hard enough to get it you can do it anywhere and I promise you that. I come from much much more of a nontarget than LSA presumably is and I am doing a SA stint right now, but it took hours and hours of networking on my part to land this, but it can be done. It makes no sense that if you are so set on banking and given two roads why your considering taking the obvious indirect and harder of the two. I dont know how Ross and LSA work, but cant you take econ electives at LSA?
i get the feeling this guy got rejected from internal transfer to ross and is trying to find ways to feel better about it by looking for people to reassure him about whatever program hes going to be in now
LOL! I did my UG at UM. A few ppl I knew tried to transfer to Ross...for some reason, the ones that didn't go wasnt b/c they got rejected..it was b/c "i dont like that it's so competitive, i can get the same classes in LSA without having to deal with the added pressure, etc..." everyone knew it was BS.
haha truth @twilightgirl
im in ross now. its a joke. school is a joke in general. havent learned anything worth paying 40k a year for, but we'll see.
regardless of what u want to do in life, u need to do it yourself.
go read books about investment banking. make sure u know excel inside out - ross has a class for that btw im taking it winter, maybe ill c u. go be able to rip apart 10ks, 10qs, financial statements from edgar database.
Perhaps not...everything that is taught in college can be learned without having to go to one. But ultimately you are buying yourself a signal that opens career opportunities for you.
When I was at UM, it was late 90's and Ross was ranked the top BBA program. A couple friends who graduated from Ross got great jobs.
I'm doing my evening MBA at Ross right now. And Im taking a class this winter in excel...BIT 512, decision support with spreadsheets. which class are you taking?
btw dshin, you can get all the intro classes and if you work your advisors and professors, take advanced ones. you gotta be smart about it first and its a pain but its doable.
^BIT 311 is the undergrad equivalent.
Ross classes are pretty useless, but all the top companies go to recruit there so it's really shooting yourself in the foot if you don't do Ross. A few banks recruit LSA, but no BB investment banking (you'll get some BB AM, top prop trading shops, some IB: a few boutiques and non-BB large banks).
What a bunch of prestige whores, who prbly don't even understand how recruiting works.
OP, although Ross can give most students recruiting advantage as it is more of a target and you can apply to top jobs in your JUNIOR/SENIOR year with a click of your mouse, I think your case is a special case. Assuming that you did quality/substantial work at your internships, you're more experienced than most rising Ross juniors if not most Ross seniors. And you got all those before your sophomore year. That is pretty impressive and very rare. Ross doesn't offer you any recruiting advantage for your sophomore year. Thus, I'm confident if you want a shot at top BB jobs in your sophomore year, Ross won't help you at all. Even when junior year comes, with your experience (again, assuming they're substantial and that you build it up with another sophomore internship), you can very easily get interviews through networking (its easy because of your experiences. Its hard for most people because they don't have jack shit but naivety, thinking that their waitress job can land them a BB IBD gig with networking). So, we have established the fact that Ross won't help you much in your sophomore year and even when junior year comes, an LSA kid with substantial experiences can easily trump most Ross kids (most of whom don't have those experiences) with networking. In your case, i think you have everything to lose going to Ross (redo GPA, more workload, bullshit classes) but nothing to gain (especially when even Ross kids have to network. Think about it this way. Networking basically accomplishes two things. First it allows non-targets' resumes to be reviewed and second, it helps with the selection itself. Ross kids will also need to network. But their networking will only help them with the second benefit because they already have the first benefit. LSA kids, through networking (putting in as much as Ross kids' networking effort) automatically achieves the two benefits without having to go through the bullshit Ross kids have to go through). Therefore, I say if you go to Ross, you have everything to lose, but nothing to gain.
Joining Ross makes even less sense as the jobs you you're aiming for in the PM doesn't even recruit at Ross.
^ Spot on!
The everything to lose nothing to gain comment is not valid.
Some of the above posters are completely out of touch with reality. Landing an offer (or even landing an interview) as an LSA kid is a lot harder. I am going to suggest that you go to Ross. To be honest, Ross classes are, on average, easier to get an "A" in and their professors are, in my opinion, much better (more dedicated to teaching, students, and better equipped). Plus, as an LS&A, you could only take certain classes at Ross...whereas if you were a Ross student, you could always double major in BBA and Econ or in any other LS&A/Engineering majors. Keep that in mind.
And let's be honest, not many people choose to go to a certain school because he/she genuinely (i mean, really) likes studying that particular subject...with that said, Ross is all about getting you the job you want, and you are almost guaranteed to get the support/resource you need to land a job in an area you want. NOT in LS&A. People at LS&A are purely academians who themselves have never really worked in the private sector. They have no clue about IBD/S&T/PE/Consulting and how you should tailor your resume for certain jobs and etc. And most of all, these companies do not come to LS&A (if they do, they almost always prefer BBA students).
This doesn't mean you can't get ibd jobs as an LS&A, it's just a lot harder to get and very few people do (if they do, it's mostly NOT through the LS&A career center). I was fortunate to have landed a few IBD offers both (BB and MM) in NYC and in London and chose to go to London because I prefer to work/live abroad for the first few years of my life. This, however, doesn't change my perception of the Econ department at Michigan...it's really a horrendous department, very poorly run, disorganized, and their professors are very much jaded/bitter because of the well organized, cash rich, better run business school. There is a "brain drain" in the Econ department...and everyone knows it. I am going to guess that over 50% of kids with GPA above 3.5 in their first year have transferred to Ross...which leaves the LS&A econ with those who aren't all that bright. And I am going to also speculate (partially true through my observation and most kids think so too) that most of the top Econ students are eitehr Engineering or BBA students who are double majoring in Econ. I am deathly serious when I say that there is a serious brain drain in Econ.
IMHO, you will not regret going to Ross...but I think you might regret going to LS&A...you will feel sorry if you don't get a job out of LS&A...I know plenty of kids from LS&A who simply...don't have jobs right now. I bet that most people out of LS&A either go to graduate schools (law, med or other graduate programs) or are currently unemployed / employed in areas they have little to no interest in.
In short, I suggest you go to Ross.
As you said, most kids don't take classes/study for their genuine interest. Who the fuck needs to take Ross classes when they can land BB jobs w/o those (pretty useless anyways)?
I think you guys are thinking about Ross's advantages provided to MOST students WITHOUT experience. But keep in mind that the OP is someone who have substantial experience and from my PMs with him, he's aiming for FT jobs that don't even recruit at Ross. Thus, all he really needs is junior year recruiting (as sophomore year recruiting doesn't happen at Ross). Again, I think Ross won't do the OP any good because he can easily land a interview through networking (especially with his experience as a FRESHMAN!!!). I emphasize to all of you, the OP is a FRESHMAN with quality IB and VC internships (at least the OP told me he's actually working on live deals). Seriously, I doubt even Ross Seniors have his experience.
this guy is an absolute tool. goddamn Umichigan kids never cease to amaze
Anyone who goes to UM will tell you to go to Ross over LSA...
Stop listening to anyone else, half the people don't even go to the school
From what I've seen at Michigan:
Ross isn't that terribly difficult to get into, everyone I know with a 3.5+ who applied got in. The average GPA for entering students is like a 3.6. The average GPA for Ross students is also ~3.6, which means Ross really isn't more difficult than LSA. Ross also has ridiculous grade inflation (A+ counts as 4.4 on the grading scale?!).
LSA is a joke. And from I've read from other places, you seem to want to major in psychology. I don't know about psych at other schools, but at Michigan, it's a joke major.
Although if you go to LSA and major in psych you'll probably meet more attractive girls. So I guess go to LSA.
Thanks for all the help. I have turned down Ross.
Hope you don't regret it.
Lol, Ross isn't hard to get into? Those 3.5/6 averages your talking about are freshman year GPAs of kids after a year within LSA, not high school GPAs. The average high school admit to Ross is around 3.9 and LSA has like 3.6.
Good luck anyways...
Don't regret it, Ross sucks almost as bad as LSA anyway.
^On the contrary. It is infinitely better for recruiting.
I've heard that Ross' curriculum for BBA is relatively "soft-skilled" focused with very little math beyond Calc I; is that true?
Most plain vanilla business degrees do not go beyond Calc I
"Lol, Ross isn't hard to get into? Those 3.5/6 averages your talking about are freshman year GPAs of kids after a year within LSA, not high school GPAs. The average high school admit to Ross is around 3.9 and LSA has like 3.6."
average GPA in LSA overall is like a 3.3-3.4...
"The average high school admit to Ross is around 3.9 and LSA has like 3.6."
read the full sentence...
and if you were referring to the line about 3.5/3.6 average, that's referring to the average GPA of an LSA student who applies to Ross (which you apply to after your freshman year of college if you weren't a pre-admit)
Getting a 3.6 in LSA is not setting the standard too high. If you know basic calculus, get an A in econ, take a few easy humanities boom. in. Most people come in with AP credits... so saving yourself from the math department if you suck is also a hedge for a higher GPA.
Nvm
I did read the full sentence. I was saying that a 3.6 isn't too impressive considering how high the average GPA in LSA is. Most reasonably hard working students from LSA should be able to reach that threshold.
At UMich, but not Ross... (Originally Posted: 04/06/2007)
I am currently a student at Michigan but I am in the LSA college as an economics major. Do I have a shot at I-banking? My GPA is good(3.7) and I had a summer finance internship at a local bank. Thanks for all input.
Hey, I am currently at UMich as well. I also am an econ major. It's no doubt tougher, cause the LSA placement center is no where near the B school placement center. But, a 3.7 could be good enough. It's always good to have hook ups though
I interviewed with an analyst at a Chicago BB who graduated in three years with an econ degree from UMich.
I'm sure you have a shot.
Matthew Stopnik -- MD at 28 -- Dillon Read has a Poli Sci and Econ degree from Mich.
fooled by randomness
lol
m
Need points to message
Non-Ross UMich becoming more of a target? (Originally Posted: 05/17/2011)
I've read almost every topic on this site about Michigan being a target school or not and what I've gathered mostly is:
-Ross is a target -Michigan's College of Engineering is kind of a "semi-target" -LSA (Literature, Science, and Arts) is on the low-end of the "semi-target" classification
But I've also read from some students that go there that some firms are starting to recruit from CoE and LSA a little bit more now... Does anybody that's in the know about this stuff know if CoE or LSA are becoming more of a target now?
At Illinois, Engineering was always recruited by a number of high-end Chicago hedge funds and prop shops, along with a few NYC banks. We saw more recruiting from financial companies than the college of business sometimes. It is not really a surprise that Michigan, another strong engineering school, is seeing some interest from recruiters in its engineering department. The interesting part is that that liberal arts is seeing recruitment. Michigan has some strength in its liberal arts programs, but I'd be surprised to see kids start getting recruited from there like they are from Yale. It is certainly not a surprise to see Michigan's average-33-ACT engineering students getting recruited more heavily than engineers at Yale.
I heard something similar. Don't know how true it is.
As a Michigan alum, I can say that BBs/ elite MMs do recruit heavily from LSA and Engineering-- they're pretty present at all career fairs, which doesn't surprise me in the least-- Michigan boasts the largest alumni network in the world, and certainly takes care of their own.
This is true, both anecdotally and in my personal experience with U of M alumni (especially undergrad alumni). As a big school with a long history, it's not surprising that it has a broad alumni network, but it does seem unusually responsive (compared to many other large state schools in the semi-target range).
I think the breadth of the network also reflects the fact that the state of Michigan's economy has long been relatively blue-collar driven and has been in decline for so long that the majority of students end up working out of state. The high number of out of state students from the East Coast may also contribute. U of M networks in Chicago and NYC rival a lot of local schools, and they seem to be a growing presence on the West Coast as well.
ll
UMich Econ to IBD? (Originally Posted: 08/16/2015)
Hi guys, I am a high school student who is considering which colleges to apply to. I know it's a long way down the road, but I think that I would like to work for a MM/BB IBD as a SA and than in a FT FO role after I graduate, so that I can gain exposure to the finance industry and Wall Street.
Michigan would be a reach school for me, but if I got in, do banks consider grads who studied Economics, or are they just viewed as Ross rejects?
I would like to study business and will apply direct admit to Ross, but if I can't get in to Ross, should I not go to Michigan at all and study business at a less well-regarded school, or just study Econ at Michigan?
Thanks for your help!
Nope. Econ is more rigorous than Ross. If you like Econ, go for it.
Umich Econ is barely rigorous at all. They also have shitty career service. Just get great grades freshman year and get into Ross. Studying in Ross is easier then doing Econ ( Econ is still more quant) and Ross inflates GPAs + Ross has amazing career placement, including IBD.
umich non ross econ vs ross finance (Originally Posted: 02/26/2012)
.
Undergrad?
Yes, undergrad.
Sending you a PM.
As you may already know, Ross is the target at Michigan. So, difficult.
It's definitely easier in Ross than outside of it. It's not like you don't have a shot being an Econ major, but it is definitely easier to do with a Finance degree.
Speaking as an LSA guy, it was pretty bad. Try to get into Ross if you want to do banking. PM if you have any further questions/how things works/procedures.
Much much more difficult..
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