Mod note: "Best of Bankerella" - this was originally posted 6/22/12
Do you want to go to a top b-school? You should have a 99th percentile GMAT.
This is hugely controversial. I have no idea why. If you’re already assured of getting into your top school because you’re so awesome or your dad’s name is on one of the buildings, go ahead and flame me. This post is not for you. If you already got into your top school with a sub-99th percentile score, awesome -- but this post is not for you.
If you currently lack certainty around getting into your top school, here's why you need a 760+ score:
Business school costs around 200-250k (not counting opportunity cost) and takes 22 months of hard work. We choose it in order to influence our futures. If you’ve already decided to drop a quarter-million and two years on school, you are shooting yourself in the foot if you don’t spend the extra hours on getting a top GMAT score so that you can get greater certainty around the school you’ll be attending. This is a massively profitable investment of time and money, folks.
I know the admissions folks say that they don’t care that much about super-high scores. Believe that if you like. Top schools receive 5k to 10k applications every year,and they rely heavily on metrics in order to survive the onslaught. Grades are malleable and mean something a little different at every school, while GMAT scores are truly and instantly comparable.
Long story short: if you want to maximize your chances of getting into your top choice, then you need a 99th percentile GMAT.
I’m not going to lie: it’s probably going to take you somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 hours. But if you’re the type to be on WSO and read posts like this, chances are that you can do it.
One caveat. I don’t want to be responsible for wasting anybody’s 200 hours. You actually do need a minimum baseline level of intelligence and education to hit 760+. But it’s not as high as most people think.
I, for one, was kind of nervous because I had a lot of major knowledge gaps. I talked to some friends/colleagues with 760+ scores and did a little casual map of their score arcs to see if there was some way of knowing ahead of time if you have what it takes or not.
Cold hard truth: what I found was essentially that 8/10 of people that ended up in the 99th percentile were between 650 and 700 on a practice test after the first week or ten days of real study. A couple of people started out in the low 600’s. Then I and my two friends each started out below 700 (one of us below 600) and finished at or above 760.
This is obviously a sample with a small N and nonrandom selection, but it’s what I have, and it seems to be a valid descriptor. So here’s what I would do if you’re worried about whether or not to make the commitment.
Go borrow somebody’s books, start a free trial program, whatever. Give it a solid few hours a day every day for a week, put in one full day on the weekend, and then take a full practice test the next day. (MGMAT is a good resource for practice tests.) If you hit mid-to-high 600’s at this point, then you're the demographic this series of posts is designed for. I'm pretty sure you have what it takes to hit 760+.
Credentials, in case you missed them from last week: I got a 770, was pretty confident I could have done a notch or two better, and coached two friends to a 770 and a 760.
How important to do you think preparing for the day (going to the test center before, knowing hoe the breaks work, training your stomach for that day, etc) is in relation to the entire gmat preparation
Disclaimer: wrote the GMAT and did shitty.
I'm usually comfortable and focused for standardized tests (plus I'd taken a few license test in the last year), so I didn't worry about things like training my stomach, going to the test center the day before, etc. I know my GMAT instructor stressed the test day prep, but I'd say you probably know yourself well enough to decide whether those things will be important for you. When in doubt, play it safe and take any necessary precautions to make sure you don't have any added stress that could affect your performance.
Tip to 760: Adderall.
more posts bankerella please! thanks!
Not to nitpick, but just wondering where you pulled this figure from?
If you're not taking into account opportunity cost, the range is closer to 150-170K for a top business school. I pulled this from http://poetsandquants.com/2011/01/08/how-much-does-a-top-mba-degree-cos…
Are there other costs that P+Q are not factoring in?
Good question. I pulled this figure from real life.
P&Q actually admits that it pulls its figures from the schools' own marketing materials and that 150-170 is way short of the mark: "In almost all cases, these “total cost” numbers–taken from the school’s websites–are very conservative estimates."
I went to one of the schools P&Q details. Major driver of cost overruns:
1: That 150-170 number only covers the school year... but you have to eat/pay rent 12 months out of every year. You do make money for 10-12 weeks in your summer internship. It ain't enough. Especially if your internship is not in the same city as your school... and it frequently isn't.
2: I dug up my student budget. It permitted us to spend, every month: $1,088 for rent $125 to cover all utilities $555 for food $65 transportation $83 to cover both clothing and laundry
This is in an expensive part of the country. The only way to live this way there is if you ditch your car and girlfriend and get 1-2 roommates, cancel your cell phone contract, cook yourself dinner every night, don't drink, don't go to parties, don't travel, use only public transportation, and never purchase any clothing.
This is not the way MBA students live. Some do try... but in order to live on such a budget, you end up not being there for the whole experience.
+1, thanks. Good to hear concrete numbers from someone who actually went through it.
I am starting Bschool in the fall and my personal 2-year budget is inline with your calculations. The numbers provided on the schools' websites and P&Q are misleading because: 1.) They are conservative, 2.) They leave a lot of costs out, 3.) They only provide estimates for a 9-month year.
For the school I am attending, the estimated budget just came out a couple weeks ago. For year one, they recommend a budget of around $88.5K. So for two years, you're at $177K.
And remember, not only is that for just 18-months, but it is also very conservative. When you add 5-6 months of extra rent ($1,500/month), 5-6 months of extra living expenses (another $1,500/month), plus all of the extra costs that are not included in that estimate (i.e. cost of joining clubs, student events, career treks, travel, gym membership etc.) you'll easily surpass $200K.
boom
^^a long post, but i think it comes down to this paragraph. will do next week.
Hm if you look at the Harvard / Stanford websites, the median score is actually 730, this meaning that half of students got below that and half got above. So 50% + of current admits would disagree with you that a 760 + is somehow "required". So kids, please don't shit your pants yet, this guy is just trying to scare you.
Hey, ElSmokeoMucho, sounds like you are a great candidate for my other GMAT-prep product, "How to Hose the GMAT. See below for the relevant excerpt.
#6: The median is your best friend.
Yes, we know that some of those other GMAT consultants are posting happy little bites of advice like, “Don’t worry if you’re below the median for your target school; half the students there are below the median too.” Like everyone else, we’ve also heard that heartwarming story about that one guy who got into Harvard with the 680. But let’s face it: who wants to be in the bottom 50%?
We here at hosethegmat.com are GMAT “ballers” who will teach you how to hit the median score that will definitely get you into that school you've been dreaming of. After all, if 50% of students are below the median, it means that everyone who applies with a median score will get in! Now that's "results!"
This is why our clients have even gone on to get median GPAs and salaries, graduate with median student debt, marry median women, own homes with median market values, and drive median cars!
For the rest of us, a 760 GMAT doesn't hurt.
the 50% below 730 probably got a CV that allows for it
Before doing all this you should understand what is your profile and how you will be assessed by the school admission team, this is actually the most important. Understand your strenghts and your leverage, if any. If you are indian and from an IT background you have so much competition from peers that you'll certainly need very high scores to be considered but if you have spent 3 years working in a submarine or 5 years in the north pole as a scientist you certainly can go anywhere with 600+ GMAT just based on diversity and out-of-the usual profile....I personnally landed a MBA at an ivy league school and score less than 700.
Yeah, like I said, this post doesn't apply to guys who qualify for the red carpet treatment. Those fast attack submarine dudes are no joke -- I worked with a bunch of them as an analyst.
If you were one of those guys, or those quiet badasses on the boomers, or those psychos who overwinter at McMurdo station: total respect and thank you for your service, but don't tell poor schmucks like me that we don't need 700+ to go top-five.
After you serve like that, doors open (as they should). The rest of us need to prove ourselves.
Two related asides.
I have a buddy that worked on a boomer. Job sounded pretty miserable. 80 - 100 weeks in a cramped sub at the bottom of the ocean. 95% of your day is checking monitors, systems, and logs. If you screw up your monitoring (e.g. you log something as a "3" when you should've written a "5") you have to do this whole root cause analysis and present it to the XO and/or some board. Only opportunity for exercise is a treadmill in the back of the sub, and because you're rolling around with nukes, the only "action" you will ever see will precipitate the end of the world. I told my buddy 80 - 100 weeks of suffering and detail-oriented monotony with no purpose was great prep for banking and he should look into H/S/W, but he said f that and is going to go work at a nuclear power plant or something.
I wonder if it's a letdown for these superstars / special forces dudes once they get out of bschool and end up chained to a desk at some banking or consulting firm (assume they can't get access to the buyside given no prior experience)? One minute you're kicking ass and taking names, next minute you're living it up at bschool, next minute you're aligning boxes in powerpoint. Sadface.
Brady, read the top post. Again. Then go out and buy the Kaplan GMAT 800 book.
What is the best way to prep for the GMAT when you are doing banking? How does one allocate time in such a case?
Wait, so people should study hard and do the best they can? WOW, didn't know that one. But let's be honest, there's a dozen kids who are reading this post right now who got 700-740 and are thinking that they need to retake the GMAT because they are not in the 99th percentile. And that's a huge waste of their time when they can / already should've bolstered there chances in other, much more helpful ways.
US Congressmen, Navy SEAL Lieutenants? The average age of top 5 MBA admits is 26-27. I would not be too worried about high ranking government officials, Jesus. Again, yes you should aim as high as possible on the GMAT, it is VERY important. But if someone is a bread and butter Banker / PE guy, even with a 760 GMAT, that is BORING. These admission counsels want interesting people with interesting experiences. If you haven't volunteered abroad, climbed a big f-ing mountain, or done something the least bit cool, you screwed up and they won't want you. So yes, everyone study hard on the GMAT, get a 720+ score, its not that hard. But do not freak out when you didn't get the 760.
I'm not a military guy so correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you leave service academies and ROTC as a second lieutenant? Meaning being a Navy SEAL Lieutenant isn't crazy from a military rank and age-standpoint (it is crazy for plenty of other reasons, though).
I see a lot of negative resistance here. Why not focus on putting in the best application possible if it does not cost you that much?
1.) Find an interesting hobby that you enjoy. 2.) Have lots of fun stories to tell. 3.) Develop self-confidence. 4.) Put in a 760 on the GMATs if you really want into an MBA business schools ">M7 school. It's not that hard. Take a prep course and study a little.
Dude, maybe go back and revisit what a median and an average tells you about a data set. I might be wrong, but I think you done fucked up both in one convo.
I'm also not convinced by your statement that adcoms are bored by PE guys with 760s but want someone who's volunteered abroad or climbed a mountain with a 720. The actual population of people I went to my top-5 school with is more like the former than the latter. Credentials might help your case there.
In terms of the age of military admits: the top special forces guys have longer commitments. They come out in their late twenties and early thirties and go direct to top-5 schools.
Example: there was one straight-up baller in my year, Navy bomber pilot, had been flying for the whole war. Those pilots take seven big figures to train up, so they make you sign on for a long time.
He came out at 32-ish with a wife and kids, went straight to top-five MBA, and chilled. Many of you who were also top 5 in my year probably know who he is. The man is a legend. He and his buddy had to ditch their planes over the gulf after his buddy crashed into him. The story is that he made the buddy take him out that night and buy all the rounds, and then the topic was dropped.
That guy is stone cold. Damn straight he didn't need a 760.
But I'm not him, and chances are, neither are you.
W/ my undergrad grades, quality work exp, and 710 on the gMAT....I'll take my chances getting into all but 5 b-schools.
We actually need more people like you who don't want to go to those 5 b-schools. Thanks for doing your part to keep the numbers down.
If you can convince me that the opportunity cost I am taking by going to NYU instead of HBS/Wharton/Stanford/Sloan/Fuqua is that great I may reconsider my position. In terms of future career utility and positioning, I imagine the difference is not all that much.
Rella -
what do you recommend for quant prep? MGMAT quickly got my verbal to 99 %ile, but i didn't find the MGMAT quant guides to be very strong
Yup, you're talking about 1 person. 1. There's, what, a handful - maybe 4-5 baller military guys who enter a top MBA class (per school) a year? Who cares? They're alllllll gonna beat us, whether we got a 0 or an 800. Why are we even talking about them? Their spots are guaranteed. 4-5 military people do not significantly effect the average / median numbers anyways. Hell they're probably pretty smart and hit the averages, because they, like everyone else, have worked hard all their lives to get where they are.
I think I was perhaps a bit unclear. I was assuming similar banker - PE types, 1 with a 760, no volunteering / mountain climbing and 1 with a 720 volunteering / mountain climbing, etc. I really think that the 720 guy has a huge advantage, regardless of the lower score, and I think most adcoms would agree with me. He has met the minimums to prove that he's very intelligent and has done something to prove that he's not a mindless finance boring drone.
My point is that I think you're information is highly misleading. Too many people are gonna see this and somehow think that they "need" a 760 and in doing so will disregard the other, just as important factors. In reality, you need a 720 minimum and a whole bunch of other stuff. Not to say to people, don't work towards a 760, just don't get caught in the weeds and miss the forest.
I think both of you guys make good points. A 760 is not "needed" to get into a top program, but given how competitive admissins has gotten in the past few years, i definitely think a 760+ puts you in a different category. Going from say a 700 to 750+ is a game changer. Will this alone get you in? No. But adcom will look at your app in a different light and perhaps give you a bit more of the benefit of the doubt if your gpa or some other area are a bit weaker.
The median at the MBA business schools ">M7 is 720-730 range. But that's only the 50%. For traditional applicants it's highly recommended that you go above that mark. If you're an ex-navy seal, fighter pilot, rhodes scholar, native american lesbian female, then congrats. You could get below the median and probably get in.
Damm bro. I absolutely love your posts. It will be sad to see you leave WSO when you start school this fall.
I think people underestimate how many smart, accomplished, interesting people apply to the top b-schools. In my opinion, HBS has the most talented group of twentysomethings amongst any college or grad program in the world.
This is a matter of how you feel about probabilities. Let's say I'm from banking and have a 720 and I volunteer locally and have a moderately badass hobby, and I will only attend a top-3 school.
What are my chances of getting into at least one of the three? For an average candidate fitting this description, with decent interpersonals and essays, I would estimate between 30% and 60%, POOMA.
Personally, I call that unacceptable. The consequence of pushing the rest of your career back a year due to admissions failure is bad: you get old, you stop moving forward. I won't take a one-in-three or two-in-three chance of failure.
Let's say I'm the same candidate now, with a 770. Same number POOMA feels more like 80-95% to me.
Here's the model I'd run using those rough probabilities. What's the net present lifetime value of a top-3 MBA in millions of dollars? I dunno -- ten mil? What's roughly 40% of that? 4 mil? That's the value of going from 720 to 770 for that candidate.
Assuming the candidate spent 100 hours getting that 720, the next hundred hours they spend getting to 770 is going to earn them 4 mil NPV. Not a bad way to spend your time when you're 25.
(Of course, these numbers are placeholders. You'd tailor the model to your own circumstance and do your homework if you were going to run it for yourself.)
I agree with these numbers. The lifetime expected return of a MBA business schools ">M7 mba is easily in the eight-figures, and that's not including intangibles like network, friendships, social experiences, etc.
What are your thoughts on admission consultants? Did you use them?
Nope. I figured I would just figure out what schools wanted and give it to them. Never really knew what those consultants do -- give you essay advice? Help you write them?
My essay strategy was this: write essays, don't show them to anyone else, don't let anyone else touch them. Paraphrasing Tony Bourdain: Don't touch my knife, don't touch my dick, don't touch my fucking essays.
I know. I typed out a super-douchy explanation for why I didn't do this. Then I deleted it because, though true, it actually did cross a line.
Essays are a totally separate topic from the GMAT, though. I'm fully in support of people getting as much high-quality help as they can for their essays, just not my help.
I wish that reading this post would have magically made me more interesting and intelligent.
Bankerella, could you PLEASE stop posting this GMAT shit.....
FormerHornetDriver, I am so sorry to have inconvenienced you. Our customers' feedback is invaluable here at hosethegmat.com. I would like to personally offer you a full refund, plus a 15% discount on your future purchases of GMAT prep material. Just send me a private message to get the full amount credited to your account.
All the best on your 99th%,
Bankerella
Are you single??? Love your posts.
what about working abroad for say 3 years? how much would that factor in?
so sad story for ppl with 750?
Eh, I don't think a 760+ is essential unless you have say crappy gpa and need to prove that you're "smart" enough to handle the "rigorous" mba curriculum. I think 730+ is the real hurdle at top programs since their median is between 720 and 730. Obviously higher the better, but GMAT score is nothing like the LSAT, where each additional point plays a corresponding role in increasing your admission chances.
EDIT: there is a poster on gmatclub who got a perfect 800 (also a 3.82 gpa in engineering to boot) who was dinged at HBS, Stanford, Wharton, Kellogg, and Booth, this past cycle. So yeah, there's way more than numbers to the process; it's essentially a black box, unlike law school admissions.
Please evaluate my chances:
3.2 GPA math & classics major at public ivy 2 years at high quality MM bank 790 Gmat
That's a great point right here -- the purpose of taking the GMAT is to get "greater certainty around the school you'll be attending".
So a lot of ppl say they want to go to business school, then they go take the GMAT and they bomb it -- it completely ruins the plans or dreams they had. Wise advise, take the GMAT first, then from there decide whether you even qualify to go to the business school you had in mind. A good place to get free gmat practice questions is on the Practice Pill Platform, you can even go through a practice test and see whether you're "in range".
As for the $150K cost of business school - I completely agree that it's more like $200K after costs for travel and expensive dinners and drinking and partying. My friends went all over the world...certainly the bond between them is super strong because of all the shared experiences. But gosh, what a big cost for "required" travel.
It's important to keep in mind the opportunity costs here --- do you want a significant other? How about all the eligible men and women being taken early on? well bschool takes away time here and you'll miss out here.
Yeah it's expensive, but life is about experiences, not money. You can always make more money and save, but I think the MBA is a unique experience that cannot be replicated elsewhere, thus one reason why so many strong friendships and romantic relationships emerge from b-school. My best friend for instance just got engaged to his classmate, whom he met during a pre-orientation international trip.
Question on this...is it better to take it right after you are done with college or around the time you are applying? Do B-schools care? Pros and Cons of each？
Well the GMAT score is good for 5 years. I think your brain is in "test mode" when you're in college and you're probably sharper as well, so if you know you're going to be applying within 5 years after college, then go for it. I know multiple people who took the GMAT during 2nd semester of senior year.
How do you get a $10m NPV on a top MBA? If you're buyside pre-MBA, you're already making a shitload of money. Risking that to get an MBA and potentially get shafted in recruiting is not worth +$10m over your current situation.
you guys haven't seen the article about one of the keys to happiness being Not Endlessly Defending Your Position (beyond a certain point anyway) or as someone once more poetically noted...Don't waste your breath to save your face when you have done your best
I think the underlying point that adequately studying for the GMAT is a worthwhile investment of time and money is a good one but to say that you "need" to hit 760+ is stupid. A GMAT score is a check the box part of your application in the sense that if you score a balanced (i.e. at least 80/80 split on Q/V) 700+, admissions will generally check the box and move on to the next part of your application. A GMAT score can keep you out but it won't get you in.
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