American I-Banking pay & salary is very low by conparison
I am new to this board. Many ppl here think a $60000 base plus $60000 something bonus is super sky rocketing salary. this is very funny to me.
May be this is true 7-8 years ago when dollar is strong. Today at apx. 1 dollar = 1 CHF, this level of pay is laughably low by european standard. Average per capita income in swiss is about CHF90000+ (this is just per capital figure). 7-8 years ago that is about $45000 when dollar was still strong. But today that is solid $90000+ per capita income.
Eurozone has similar situation.
Decent middle to senior level ppl at many major swiss companies (i-banking excluded) make upwards of CHF180000+ with ease. Ppl who get posted overseas (which is very usual) gets double pay so twice that number (+ relocation pay etc.). Also europe in general has tons of vacations compared to USA. (I-Banking lifestyle lol are u kidding me?)
Or maybe it's just USA is becoming poorer lol:D
What an idiotic post... I don't even know where to begin.
You're a total dope.
ideating: "What an idiotic post" is a great sentence to begin with =)
I somehow expect ppl getting serious about the OP and coming up with elaborate arguments... which is always beneficial to newbies like me.
all sounds awesome, OP...except the fact that you have to live in Switzerland. other than that, peachy. look up how much a ford focus would run you there (and many other countries in the "vacation-rich" europe) compared to here...and then we can talk.
Not to mention, you're comparing 1st year analyst total comp to "decent middle to senior level ppl"."
The total tax rate in Switzerland can run upwards of 55%. That is a lot of money. Geneva and Zürich are also much more expensive than NYC. Geneva is the seventh most expensive city in the world and Zurich is the ninth most expensive city in the world. Although, I will tell you that living in Switzerland does sound more appealing than living in NYC but that is subjective.
As others said, it's hard to even know where to start. Let's take things slowly...
You don't say. The phrase "super sky rocketing salary" is funny to me too, although I think for different reasons. At this point, it's worth pointing out that the aforementioned 60+60 is the comp of a 22-year old fresh out of college. It also neglects signing bonus. I don't think there ever was a time when $120K was considered "super sky rocketing." It was and is a good salary for an entry-level job.$90,000 PE/HF. Everybody knows that. This would be called stating the obvious. Yes, the dollar has declined recently.
Yes the dollar has devalued but this has got to be the worst attempt at an argument I have ever seen. I am not in the US but I lived there for a while and I can safely say that even though the dollar has devalued, americans still manage to enjoy a fairly low cost of life compared to some places in Europe (i am talking like for like basket of goods and products. Also and this could be debatable to some, the quality of life in the Us has not been affected (yet?).
I think that also a lot of the people on this board would gladly take their ibanking jobs even with a discount on their salary even, just knowing that the earning potential is so great and the exit opportunities won't change. Heck you hear about people ont he board talking about doing it for free just because of the future it can bring you. So all in all it's all relative and bring the expression "apples and oranges" to mind...
by the way, I would hate living in switzerland, there are laws against flushing a toilet after 10pm...what's up with that?? shitiquette anyone?? lol
http://www.mundayweb.com/weirdlaws.php
lol you can hate europe fine. i'm just pointing out some opinions since most ppl here seem to be into this area for the high pay when in fact i think the pay is not quite high.
i think this board needs a different voice like me. it would be dull to only hear "our pay rocks" "yeah it rocks" "our pay highest in the world" "yes yes"
ciao ciao lol...
by the way i'm not swiss myself. worked there for a while.
i'm an italian living in Bergamo.
Hahahaha, the law forbidding to flush after 10pm is true and absolutely hilarious.
lol i expected to be called an idiot:D
American bankers always want to feel good about themselves and I'm fine with that.
i bumped into this forum while searching cheap investments in u.s.
lol if a entry level banker in the U.S. barely makes more than an average random swiss dude, then.... lol....
You like the U.S., the FED (which is helping working hard printing money to bail ibanks out and keep u guys jobs), your currency and your way of life. That is cool with us. We won't touch it lol...
more calling me idiot comments are welcome:D
Entry level bankers in London, taking PPP into consideration, make considerably more than their NYC counterparts. Fact.
The tax burden on someone earning £50K in London is less than the tax burden on an equivalent amount in USD in New York. Federal + state + city eats up more than British tax.
Where is this coming from? How can you use the words "considerably more" and then state it as fact. What is "considerably more?"
Yes, the USD has depreciated. At least we don't fucking nationalize our failing banks.
wait for Citi bank. they don't dissappoint wink wink the Arabs and chinese don't have endless money to pump into it.
nystateofmind, in keeping with the child-like tone of your statement, perhaps this would help you realise its ironical nature:
http://alzahr.blogspot.com/2008/03/asterix-obelix-at-federal-reserve.ht…
An imperfect analogy, I admit, but I trust you get what I’m alluding to.
Did you really laugh out loud four separate times while writing that last post?
These dinky little euros coming on here bragging about their paltry salaries is laughable.
One thing's for sure, you Euros sure do vacation a lot. I have buddies living in London and it seems like they're traveling every weekend. You guys get a month's paid vacation right ?
yes usually about a months, you can choose the time to take it if the boss is not too unhappy about it.
I do think America has more efficient corporate system and they make people work much harder. ( i don't think i'm working too hard lol, sorry:D I think france is most inefficient (longest vacations lol)
American companies fire people very easy. in europe, firing ppl is very difficult due to unions, legalities etc.
That's because Europeans are lazy, chain-smoking, wine-swilling communists.
Yup, I earn more, and get 5 weeks vacation a year.
What part of London do you live in ? If you don't mind my asking.
The hilarity seems to be fading.
I agree, there are too many people saying "our pay highest in the world."
So the OP's premise is that mid/senior-level Swiss executives make $180k whereas first-year analysts make closer to $120k? Not sure how that translates into the notion that investment banking doesn't pay well.
At the ripe old age of 24, an analyst will be making more (potentially by 2x+, depending on exit opp) than the aforementioned mid/senior-level Swiss execs...
i'm not saying executives like bosses. just regular workers (project managers, senior engineers etc.) the bosses make orders of manitudes more, but they pay much much much more taxes haha. Europe is the only place where socialism worked lol
that CHF180000 is for senior engineers. bosses make like millions but pay most of it in taxes.
Well, I don't see where this "entry level banker in the U.S. barely makes more than an average random swiss dude"-ish talking is from. But I do see a face full of LOL all the time (like some madman)
So this guy mocks everyone for fun? Then don't get stuck.
I have a feeling the U.S. will become significantly more socialist over the next 4 years.
This has already started, of course, and I'm currently curious as to what my ~$600 "tax rebate" from our fiscal stimulus package (read: wealth redistribution scheme) will be spent on. Too bad it's not like a traditional donation where you get to see who your funds went to and what they used it for - I'm really hoping my cash gets used as a down payment for a plasma TV, a hot tub or something equivalently sweet.
If you think the US gov't is going to naionalize Citi, you're an idiot. You're doing your Italians a huge disservice by posting your absurdities. And stop winking at me you queernut.
Awesome. There's nothing I hate more than people who type out "LOL", but if ever I was going to type that, it would be now.
You can't point to some potential future event, compare it to an actual past event and then equate the two parties.
"Well at least Eliot Spitzer isn't as deviant as Michael Jackson." "Wait for him to start molesting children, he won't 'dissappoint' wink wink"
You are suggesting that people on this board are stupid because they prefer to take investment banking jobs in the US rather than move to Switzerland and take "mid to upper level" jobs in mediocre Swiss companies?
How old are you?
OP is absolutely correct. Investment banks in USA do pay much less than they pay in other countries. But it's not the funniest thing here. Majority of the board really believes that USA is a better place to live - that is funny. For native americans it might be understandable, as it's their motherland, but for others of course not.
With regards to IB pay in other countries compared to USA: In UK, pay is somewhat 30% higher on a gross of tax basis and taxes are a bit lower. In UAE, pay is on par with USA but is free of income tax. Gross salaries in Hong-Kong and Singapore are higher than in USA and taxes are lower. Gross salaries in Russia are on par with UK but are subject to 3 times lower tax rate.
List may go on I suppose. But, knowing the peculiarity of this forum, I think it won't make anyone change his opinion.
What the hell? Are all Europeans this stupid? No wonder we had to bail them out of two world wars... super easy to build a socialist paradise when the United States is paying your defense bill.
As an international student studying in an ivy now, I can tell you that the strongest candidates among us want to work on wall street, and usually get a position there. It's the credibility factor of having worked on Wall Street, apart from the exit options. The second rate ones settle for London, HK or elsewhere, even though they wanted NY so bad. this people can sometimes get bitter and start to slag off NY as a psychological defense mechanism. This is understandable.
Apart from the credibility factor, there are other advantages to working on wall street:
(a) The power center of the banks is still in NY. If you want to want to climb up the IB ranks, you have to be in NY. There many be some power shift to international offices recently, but the bulk of senior bankers are from NY. You can never be a global head of any group if you are based in a satellite office like Milan, Frankfurt, HK or Singapore.
(b) Mobility - it is easier to transfer from NY to any other office in the world. It is however extremely difficult to transfer from a satellite office to NY.
(c) Exit options - US PE/HF pay is the highest in the world by a long shot. Just look at the billions that the top HF managers make. To make it to PE/HF in the USA, it is advantageous to spend time in IB on wall street. You have less of such exit options if you were to do IB internationally.
lol third world country ppl love USA. That has been the case for decades. They study in U.S. and want to work there and wish U.S. is the best. Good good lol. keep dreaming. You make the world look like 100% finance and nothing else.
Europe = Strong Solid Industrial Power
U.S. = Center of Financial Trickery
no wonder USD is going down. America dont' even have a proper industry today. And from what i see from this board, this is probably because their young ppl in univiersities have been swindled to join financial #Q$#@$) instead of real work
Where do you work Ivan?
Certain people in this thread seem to fabricate information under the assumption that no one will call them out on it: fp175, Ivan.
I've worked in 3 global cities in banking at the junior level and I can tell you that pay is not significantly higher in London or Asia. In fact, my bank institutes global pay, so pay is exactly the same everywhere; considering that COL is higher in London, netnet, you're worse off. The HKD is pegged to the USD and pay is exactly the same in both cities; the difference is that HK is much more sweatshop.
Ivan, where do you get your information from? Do you simply make it up and hope that other people are as ignorant as you are and unable to correct you?
Hm.... I thought it was pretty well known that in IBs in London starting pay is 36-40k pounds for analyst and 60-65k pounds for associate. Convert it into dollars and compare with USA pay, about 30% difference. Taxes in London are lower than in NYC, that is just a pure fact.
About other countries... well, one piece of advice for you: try and approach headhunters. They will tell you how much people make outside of USA. You could also know than in eurozone, typical starting salary for associate is about 80k euro (over 120k USD).
Salaries in Dubai? Well, if you don't know that they pay same gross amounts as USA roles, then again try asking HHs or check vacancies in internet:) And absence of income tax in Dubai is a hard fact. As well as the fact that Russia has 13% flat tax rate, with banks paying same money as UK banks gross.
Salaries in Singapore and Hong-Kong? Believe me, those guys make more than you in USA, like it or not but they do :)
And you may call me ignorant or whatever, but I work as an associate in M&A, outside of the USA, and I am afraid I do make more on net basis than those at the same level on Wall Street.
While London compensation is about 30% higher for analyst/associate the typical living cost there will also be higher for a similar lifestyle. Also income tax is not that much different: GBP35k+ is taxed at 40%. Overall, I don't think there is a significant difference in compensation when taking the cost of living into consideration.
As for Dubai, there might be no taxes but it's far from the paradise some might make it out to be. Rent/inflation is rising rapidly, transportation is a mess and most people I know would take an offer from NY/London over Dubai without any hesitation... taxes or no taxes.
But what about tax rates in HK? Are they not much lower than that of the United States and are the bonuses adjusted to that lower rate?
Average income in Switzerland is lower than the USA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
GDP isn't exactly income, but nevertheless a good proxy. Swiss GDP per capita is $40K while US GDP per capita is $44K. There's a lot of difference between $90K (which you claim) and $40K. At least tell a credible lie, OP.
wiki uses PPP, their conversion rate is way of market price (1$=1CHF right now).
average swiss GDP has been stably CHF90000. As i said before, it might have been equivalent to about $45000 8 years ago when dollar is strong, but not today.
I did not claim $90k (in fact i rarely use dollar figures, since USD sucks). I said CHF90000+
That's not right. The wiki GDP per capita figures are compiled last year in 2007. Last year's conversion rate is about $1= 1.2CHF. i.e. if Switzerland's income per capita last year is $40K, it would be about $48K based on today's exchange rate of $1 = 1 CHF. That's far far away from US$90K or 90KCHF. No wonder you can't work on Wall Street. You need to first brush up on elementary school math.
U.S. = Center of Financial Trickery
Seriously, that's the greatest thing i've ever heard. Thank you monopolist - you made my day. Now get back to unmasking all those other trickster countries out there. Who else knew this?!!
monopolist..you are a tool.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sz.html
the 2007 Swiss per capita GDP estimate is $39,700, whereas the US is $46,000. last time i checked, 46,000>39,000.
it's ok, though. the literacy rate in italy is lower than in the US. you are excused. or is the CIA incorrect as well?
I am not aware that Italy (where OP claims to come from) is a "first world country". I love the country for its physical and cultural beauty, but it's far far from first world: the grinding poverty in vast swathes of the south (and parts of the north), the endemic corruption and the general inefficiency (which is celebrated). It's a well known scandal that Naples and others southern cities could not clear their own garbage, and their people live in the garbage dumps, and survive on garbage scraps. It could just as well be Sub-Saharan Africa. Just google "Naples and rubbish" and you will find 100,000 articles devoted to this debacle.
very interesting. ppl on this board seem can not tolerate the very idea that their pay might not be the highest in the world!!! WOW
I capitulate. yeah go ahead and keep on massaging your ego lol. You guys not even out of university and already think you own the world. sigh.
This is not the point. You quote false average income data (swiss average income of 90K CHF?) to begin with, and now you cannot justify it. It's not that I am intolerant of different views. I am intolerant of lies and incompetence.
i like how nowhere in your replies do you address the facts that are being used against you. no one argued that our pay is the highest...everyone argued AGAINST your GDP statements; however, you repeatedly choose to not counter those. its blatant that you have nothing to back up your argument other than regional pride, for the presence of which you blame Americans. priceless argument, dimwit. go LOL yourself in the corner.
Nominal per capita (2006) PPP per capita (2007) 1. Luxembourg 80,288 Luxembourg 80,800 2. Norway 79,154 Qatar 75,900 3. Qatar 70,754 Norway 55,600 4. Iceland 62,976 Kuwait 55,300 5. Ireland 58,883 United Arab Emirates 55,200 6. Denmark 57,035 United States 46,000 7. Switzerland 56,711 Ireland 45,600 8. Sweden 47,069 Iceland 39,400 9. United States 45,594 Canada 38,200 10. Netherlands 45,429 Denmark 37,400
in 2006 1USD = 1.32 CHF
also look at luxembourg lol
below is from the same website you pointed to me called wikipedia
Nominal per capita (2006) PPP per capita (2007) 1. Luxembourg 80,288 Luxembourg 80,800 2. Norway 79,154 Qatar 75,900 3. Qatar 70,754 Norway 55,600 4. Iceland 62,976 Kuwait 55,300 5. Ireland 58,883 United Arab Emirates 55,200 6. Denmark 57,035 United States 46,000 7. Switzerland 56,711 Ireland 45,600 8. Sweden 47,069 Iceland 39,400 9. United States 45,594 Canada 38,200 10. Netherlands 45,429 Denmark 37,400
in 2006 1USD = 1.32 CHF
also look at luxembourg lol
don't use PPP which is way off official exchange rates now.
using official exchange rate per capita GDP, european countries beat USA easily lol
Two points:
(a) since we are talking about working in NY (where most US IB positions are based) vs. a Swiss city, the comparison should be between cities and not countries. NY's average income is ranked #7 ($52.8K), whereas Zurich is ranked #69 ($33.4K). this data is compiled in 2007 April. No amount of currency fluctuations since then can close the gap. http://www.demographia.com/db-gdp-metro.pdf
(b) for inter-country comparison, you use PPP because it takes into account differences in costs of living. Nominal GDP (which you quoted) doesn't. Nominal GDP is also affected by exchange rate differences, but exchange rate fluctuations are quite irrelevant to your purchasing power. If the USD depreciates 10% today against the CHF, does that mean an average zurich worker is suddenly 10% richer and his purchasing power has increased by 10%? the answer is no. Tsk tsk tsk.
I am still waiting for how you came out with the 90K CHF average income for Switzerland. In your dreams perhaps.
Ivan - let me say this: I've checked out some of your posts and there's no way you're an IB M&A associate. Nobody buys the crap you're spewing.
That's not me who is spewing crap all over the forum, I would say. It doesn't bother me that much if you do or do not believe my words - neither my position, nor income changes due to it.
For others, though, it might be informative to know what other countries are paying for the same job. Because the job is indeed the same, and if you are positioned in one of, I think, 5 locations (apart from USA) in a reputable investment bank or IB boutique, your dealflow and experience will be pretty similar to what it would've been in USA, and your income will be higher. To add to this, I would say, that in terms of experience, it is actually more benficial at this point in time to be located in Gulf region, Hong Kong, Moscow, or London (covering some emerging markets) - world is rapidly going East in terms of economy trends, and exposure to one of booming emerging markets (especially China, India, Russia&CIS, or Gulf region) is extremely valuable and will be even more valuable in the years to come. You will not obtain it being in NYC.
And with regards to pay comparisons... It has nothing to do with "cost of living", "lifestyle" or any other crap. You have to compare net income you earn. Adjusting your own spending in order to secure a certain level of lifestyle is your personal problem.
Ivan and Monopolist - thanks for playin' and come back to see us. Better luck next time.
I feel this will turn into one of those "My country is better" battles. If you live in a country you like, and you're making enough money to satisfy you, then there is no need to start comparing. You only starting comparing yourself against others when you are insecure.
-The starting salary for an analyst in London is 36,666.67 GBP (~73k USD). The deviation from US pay is because of RECENT fluctuations with the exchange rate. Because of the global-pay policy that most banks have instituted, I would not be surprised to see an adjustment. -The starting salary in HK is 500,000 HKD with no signing bonus (65k USD). HKD is pegged to USD. -The starting salary in Singapore is 100,000 SGD (~72k USD). Same with London; slightly higher than NY because of recent devaluation of USD. -I have worked in or have contacts in each of these markets. -Ivan does not work in banking
I can't speak from my own experience since I'm a senior in college, but my best friend worked as an analyst for 2 years in NYC and then moved to London a year ago, and he told me that NYC is def the place to be. Not just from the professional development viewpoint (better exit ops, more HFs, PE shops, most Ibanks have they HQ's there...) but also from the discretionary income viewpoint. He said London might have a bit higher salary, but the cost of living is SO high, that british pound would have to be worth 3 dollars in order to make up for that difference. And I think he knows what he's talking about, since he worked similar jobs in both cities and led a similar lifestyle both in NYC and in London.
I am western European myself, but I'd like to work in US after graduation. At the end it comes down to each ones preference.
The IB starting pay in london/frankfurt/zurich is indeed higher from my experience, than what I read on this board about US pay. BUT PE pay is mostly lower than in USA (london is on par), dont know for HF/VC. As the other posters said, the cost of living is much higher than in US. In Swizerland hamburgers cost 3times more than in USA :D cars are more expensive, rent too, but you just earn ~20%more in IB and even less in PE.
The US lifestyle is much better! If you live in London/Zurich and work in IB/PE, one just can never afford these huge american style houses, gas costs almost 3 times more, bad weather, you get the idea...
You do get more vacations and more job security but there is no entrepreneural spirit no one wants to change/start something new in Europe, everything goes so slow here - it is just my subjective feeling but I think that one can achieve more in US.
I, too, thought this was a serious discussion until I realized that it is some European with poor English skills spewing out a socialist rant. Good luck with WWIII buddy, I'm sure you'll be crying for America's help again sooner or later, VCMonkey
Dude I get a huge bodega sandwich for $4.50. Boar's head baby.
So 60 k USD is 38 k EUR - that´s what bottom tier corporate trainees for let´s say accounting in a mid sized company get in Europe. That´s ridiciulously low given the work hours in IB. And the additional 60 k bounus will go down siignificantly this year I guess. Given the high cost of living in NY being an IB analyst in NY is really a sad thing.
I don't see why you are guaranteeing anything to me - I am American and know exactly what things cost in NYC as I grew up in the Tri-State area. London isn't cheap, but NYC is very expensive and I wonder why people think it's much cheaper.
I am not an arrogant European looking down on NYC, as many of the other people here seem to be. I am an American happy for my good fortune because when I move back home the money I've saved will be significantly what anyone who'd done an analyst stint in New York would be, yet I have basically the same lifestyle.
Not putting down NY bankers, I just happen to live here now and it's pretty great as far as I can see.
As this is what surveys are for. To draw conclusions based on proper data sampling - while your personal experience may be more relevant to you, it is insignificant when making general statements about cities.
Based on varied independent statistical surveys, for several years now, and including adjustments for exchange rate fluctuations, it cannot be disputed, whether you specifically compare food, housing, clothing, and public transportation or a more broader cost of living estimate that:
LONDON IS MORE EXPENSIVE TO LIVE IN THAN NEW YORK CITY.
Google that sh*t or head down to the local library if you want to be cynical.
And cost of living is significantly important to discretionary income, which is the ultimate source of wealth. So don't mislead yourself into over inflating the importance of net income here. Unless of course, you plan on not eating, traveling or sleeping under a roof - you know, the essentials of modern life. Get a grip people.
I know what prices are like in London - I happen to visit it every so often. Whether or not it is more or less expensive than NY depends on how you spend money and what you buy. It is likely that given weakening of dollar, NY is cheaper now all in all, but difference is insignificant. Difference in pay is bigger.
There is another thing to consider (i guess for people who are not working just to fund their living, but who are a bit better positioned): net income you make determines how much money you have for the purposes of investing. From my experience, living expenses are similar accross the globe, at least in major cities, and anyway those expenses are only several thousand dollars per month, not very significant part of yearly net income I would say. All the rest is what you may invest (or spend if you so wish), and with regards to investing, cost of living in this or that region is absolutely irrelevant. But gross salary figures and taxation issues are, on the contrary, very important - and in this respect, US salaries combined with sky-high taxes of this country suck big time.
Not true. I only invest in my retirement accounts, so it's actually gross income.
Brilliant insight.
Where you invest is not where you COULD invest, that's the key point here :) The truth is, that the majority of investments one could make are being made out of net income. And if you only invest in retirement accounts, it only means that you do not have much free funds to invest differently (I have doubts that you manage to invest, say, 50%-60% of yearly income in retirement accounts). And if you may allow yourself to invest much less portion of your overall pay, then my previous posting was not addressed to you.
brilliant.
A couple of points again:
1- experience in NYC is always beneficial anywhere else. Look at your own office - do you see a lot of senior guys with experience in NY? I suspect so. In other words, with NYC experience, you can go anywhere. the fact that we start in NY doesn't mean that we are stuck in NY forever. The credibility of being a wall street banker cannot be underestimated. On the other hand, you virtually cannot transfer to NY with your emerging markets experience.
2 - One thing I found out from a contact working in emerging markets IB is that deal structures and clients there tend not to be very sophisticated, compared to NYC. If you are a junior person working in these markets, your training and skill-set will be severely compromised. This is pretty much a fact. A classmate of mine with experience in Dubai and HK also mentioned that Asia IB is only equity markets, with a sprinkling of rudimentary M & A deals, and mainly cash-based. the modeling they do over there also tends to be very superficial and rough-and-ready. Is this really a good training ground for junior analysts/associates? I seriously doubt so.
3 - Before anyone starts talking about M & A work shifting elsewhere, let's look at the hard facts and figures. Look up Thomson M & A review for 2007. The deal values are as follows:
US - $2.1 trillion Europe - $2.1 trillion Asia ex Japan - $448B Latin America - $100B Gulf states - ????
The emerging markets may be growing faster than US, but for the foreseeable future (next 10-20 years), the biggest and most high profile deals will still from from NY. How do you put a value to that?
Now you are talking :)
Actually, I tend to agree with some of your arguments. Definitely, experience in IBD in NYC is credible worldwide and may serve you well in the future. But - and you mentioned it yourself - what it can help you with is to make a move outside of the USA in the future. Exactly, it may help big deal. But look at the other postings in the forum - most of guys say NYC is a pinnacle of the world :) You are correct about US citizens being present in our office here - they are experienced guys. I asked them what were the reasons for them to move to my country, and consensus opinion of them was that they earn MUCH more here than in USA doing the same thing, simply put. Money and opportunities for further career growth (market is booming, hence many deals and chances to deliver).
I will also agree with what you ahve told about formal training program - in USA it is, on average, better. But, on the other hand, in USA most of junior bankers come in as fresh graduates. In my country, it is near impossible to get in investment bank without some relevant full-time work experience under your belt (I mean, bulge bracket ones - there are chances to join some local bank for graduates, though) So, people who join do not need that much of training as US analysts do - hence differences in approach to formal training.
Regarding your 2nd point - I would probably disagree. M&A deals are M&A deals, and if a deal is large, it is pretty much granted that some bankers from HQ (from London mostly) actively participate in structuring and executing the transaction - so local offices work in close collaboration with headquaters, and quality of product is standard. But - and this is very important - more junior bankers working in emerging markets have much more client exposure than their peers from NYC, this is even harder fact than what you've told about training. And client exposure is more important than modelling abilities (in the long run).
About 3rd point.... well, Europe is already on par with USA :) I think it might give you a hint to something, and Europe consists of many countries :) Regarding Gulf - of course there is no M&A activity there, gulf states are sources of huge amounts of cash, that's their role now. Latin America... well, I haven;'t mentioned it either. Asia ex Japan... 0.5 trillion dollars is enough dealflow, especially if you compare investment banking headcount. Much more deal value per head :) Actually, its one of the reasons why in some emerging markets bankers are being paid higher bonuses than in USA - local offices there often generate many times more revenues per 1 employee.
Seriously Ivan - your english is terrible. Just stop.
Yea, and about biggest deals... I could name a couple, lets see:)
From recently closed - ABN AMRO acquisition by RBS and consortium comes to mind. European deal, presumably. From ongoing... Norislk Nickel acquisition by UC Rusal comes to mind now. European deal again, I dare say.
just see that CNBC segment with "The Bank Skank" comparing shopping in NYC v shopping in London right before the number?
It would seem somebody over there must be keeping up w/ WSO!
Anyway, if you haven't seen it, guess which city fared better? No, really go ahead. Guess.
I live in London and it IS more expensive anyone trying to claim it's not is insane. Whether the higher post-tax base (mine works out to $4600/month post-tax and NI with $1550 rent) compensates for this.
Saying that, I just watched the CNBC piece and it's just an absurd bit of fluff. First of all she goes to Whole Foods, which in London is one store in Kensington with massively jacked up prices for the local billionares, not representative. A better comparrison with Whole Foods NY would have been Waitrose London. I was listening to her prices and no way do I ever pay that much.
Look I don't agree w/ the US bailing out BS by any means, but you can't even compare what the JP and the Fed did today w/ nationalizing a failing bank. I will admit that my tone was rude and perhaps I spoke too soon. Although we can endlessly debate the validity of your analogy. But fair enough.
I completely agree with the OP.
Weak US dollar (with no signs of reversal), high taxes, faltering economy, the worst hours in the industry, high cost of living in major hubs such as NYC and LA make working in the US one of the worst choices I could think of. The only thing you've got going for you is to say you've worked in what will soon be the former superpower.
US does not have a better lifestyle than Europe. The sheer hours already makes life miserable enough in US. HK anaylsts have housing allowance. Not to mention the dealflow is only going to go up. Any chance they'll unpeg their dollar too?
The US economy is going through a down cycle now, but it doesn't mean that it is "faltering" or that the USD will remain weak forever. All economies go through ups and downs. Europe has its fair share of recessions, and it is also bearing the brunt of this financial crisis (Northern Rock etc.)
HK (and the rest of Asia) went through the Asian financial crisis too - the head of the Chinese exports agency has come on record to say that no economy can remain decoupled from the USA for long periods of time. If the US goes into a prolonged recession, HK will be dragged down the mud too. That corrects your statement that HK dealflow can only go up and up.
Former superpower? too soon to say that, too soon. I am curious: on what basis do you say that? why not look at some macro measures to see US's position in the world? it may surprise you.
Delirium,
the U.S. is not in a down cycle, it is IRREVERsibly and PERMANENTLy down. WHy? USD can not be down forever? GBP was once worth 4$ and yes it is forever down since the fall of British Empire.
All empires have their ends. My beloved motherland once ruled the world (Roman Empire), but it has fallen PERMANENTLY (or you can call it was in a down cycle for the past 2000+ years lol).
UK once dominated teh world financially in from late 1800s to early 1900s, but it has ceded its crown to the upstart U.S. since the WWII.
Now it is likely time for the U.S. to disappear from world dominance and let europe regain its lost glory! (China can come along too, alaska too lol)
If you have so much time on your hands, why don't you go and do something for Italy, for example, clearing the trash that Italians are drowning in? Stop making a nuisance of yourself here.
Don't generalize using irrelevant historical examples. It only calls into question your intellect, or the lack thereof. Going by your logic, the USA would have lost its crown after the depression in the 20s, or after every single recession it went through ever since. Did it? No.
In other words, let's wait and see. Nobody can honestly tell where this is headed, except for some jealous and insecure retard from Europe shouting for the downfall of USA.
If you have a chip on your shoulder in your personal life, deal with it. There may be a reason why you can't get that girl, can't make it into a sports team, get bad grades, not make it to the college of your dreams, or the divorce of your parents. Making a nuisance of yourself on an anonymous board doesn't make your real life situation any better. It will only make you more delusional.
One thing i realised. Americans on this board are very rude.
It's a touchy topic since there're so many Americans here. Forget about the US going down. I just don't think it's great to work there in the next few years for the more apparent reasons I've mentioned like hours and pay. Maybe I just haven't fully appreciated the benefit of having Wall Street on your belt.
Two things... 1st, and least important, regarding all this empire talk, The US had this monitary situation back in the 70s and we recovered from it just fine. The situation is still too current to really be able to predict how everything will play out. Can we agree on that? Also, regarding the Roman Empire, I wouldn't quite say the Roman Empire fell prematurely. The Roman Empire didn't technically fall until 1453 with the end of the eastern roman empire (the fall of the Byzantene Kingdom), however a significant number of problems that accellerated teh decline of Rome originating in the Third Century due to in-fighting, power struggles and the poor ability to manage and control an empire of that size and magnitude during that time period. Now... enough on that, but if you have any thoughts or care to hear more on my opinions of the Romans, PM me.
Issue 2, the more important choice... It's not all about the salary or the city you live in or the COL expenditures.... Sometimes its just about being in the proverbial center of the universe. Hear me out on this one. Where would you rather work, Goldman Sach's NYC HQ or at their San Fransisco office? Now, don't give me some BS answer about "it's all in the group", because I'm asking about Location here. What about Goldman NYC vs. Goldman London? How about NM Rothschild & Sons (Rothschild) London or Rothschild NYC? Lazard NYC vs. Lazard London? Miuzho Tokyo vs. Mizuho London? UBS Zurich vs. UBS Greenwich? CS Zurich vs. CS NYC?
See the point I'm trying to make? Pick any office and compare it to the experience you get against the home office or "The largest office in the world". You will get a better experience working out of the home office because it is the center of the universe for everything in your bank... unless you work for a swiss bank, where you want the largest office outside of Zurich. For some reason, you get a better experience outside of Switzerland than you do in there. I can't explain it, but every swiss banker I know has always wanted to jump ship from Switzerland to every other office which has to say something, but that is an aside from the point I'm trying to make.
You are better off working at that office which provides you with 1) more exposure to value-creating stuff 2) higher salary 3) higher bonuses 4) lower taxes 5) faster career progression
For some reason, NYC would not be a better option in any of those 5 mentioned points (even in career progression - in NYC you almost must have an MBA, which means 2 years without career progression compared to other locations where MBA is not a must).
And another thing that you said... about "NYC is a center of the universe"... well, as long as you and others like you continue to sincerely think so, your American employers will have it relatively easy to underpay you in comparison to other countries.
Actually, this is very funny. Usually, employers have a hard time giving out reasons for paying lower than they could, but, as far as I see on this forum, in USA many people are more than happy to earn less than their peers abroad, and do not require any additional efforts on behalf of their employers to keep this happiness (like, why should I care how much some subpar european communist make, I am in the center of the universe anyway). Maybe it's about US mentality.
1) I said assuming all things equal. This means the value added done in one office is the same as another office. The career progression can be done in a TMT Group in London compared to a TMT group in Singapore compared to a TMT group in San Fransisco compared to a TMT group in Hong Kong compared to a TMT Group in NYC. Career progression is a factor of the person, not the group he's in. Higher Salary is a function of what level you are in the food chain with the COL figures factored in by location. I'm sure someone who'se a VP HLHZ is not making the same as some 1st year analyst at JPM. Hell, the VP at JPM isn't making the same as the Analyst at JPM. Both VPs are going to make more, because that's a function of job. Lower taxes is a moot arguement due to different taxation structures and the potential for Ex-Pat filing conflicts. If you can tell me with a straight face that, as a US Citizen, working in London will save me money on my taxes, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I could sell you for extremely cheap. I'm certain that the same holds true for any Ex-Pat in the US. Or are we talking two natives doing the same job in the same country? The more variables you factor in, the more your logic becomes flawed.
2) I never said NYC is the center of the universe. It's a major transit hub, but it is not the center of the universe. Every bank's center is where it's main HQ is located. It may be the largest regional center of the banking universe and the number one place to find a huge collection of banks, but it's not the center of the universe. If you noticed, I chose the home office compared to another major office for each firm. Rothschild, UBS and CS are all based in Europe. Mizuho is based in Tokyo. GS and Lazard are the only companies who's HQs are based in the US on that list. Far from me to say NYC is the best place to work, I'm just saying consider the value added by working in the Home office (Ex. Rothschild London over Rothschild NYC) or a major hub office (ex. GS NYC vs. GS San Fransisco). You have a much different kind of exposure by working in the home or hub office than you do within a firm anywhere else the firm may have an office. Given the choice to work in a Hub or a HQ, I would wager that most would rather work in the HQ. If the HQ isn't available, the major hub becomes the next big choice. This often becomes NYC because just about every bank has a major office or HQ in Manhattan.
3) Pay is variable depending on the position you are in at the point of your career you enter at... and the price you give, 60K base + 60K bonus is pretty damn good for a first year right out of college. Just throwing that out there. You make it seem like the pay rate you quoted is what a 3rd year analyst or a 2nd year associate gets. For someone to make 180K CHF as a mid-level manager is obviously going to be paid more and have more experience than someone starting out of college. IF your point is to show superiourity comparing apples to oranges, then you've just proven your point with the numbers you quote. If we were to talk about the same job in NYC vs. London vs. Hong Kong vs. Zurich and the pay scales used, then we'd be rolling on apples and apples.
One last point... using numbers and statistics are great... just make sure that when you use them to look fancy, they compare two similar items, like Salaries for a 1st year analyst or Comparative Company Multiples or how much crap can come out of Pepster's mouth.
Now, don't get me wrong. I would relish the oppertunity to work abroad, however, I also enjoy the ability to work in Manhattan. I can't say anything but positive things about my experience here, but I can say that I don't think I would have the same kind of experience starting out in London or Hong Kong as I would in NYC. Someone else said it earlier... all roads in banking travel through NYC. Does that make it the center of the universe? Not by a long shot... but it is the center of something...
Last year, top 1st year made 10k sign-on + 60k salary + 90k bonus = 160k... what is everyone talking about 60k + 60k for? slightly higher for top boutique banks, slightly lower for second tier banks...
obviously, this will decrease slightly this year, but we are all making a sh-tload.
look, it's not about how much someone makes by just adjusting for exchange rates; what you all need to just look at is your relative wealth to others in your surrounding. if everyone in switzerland is making CHF180k, and i-banking there only pays CHF160k, then no one should be doing banking there!! the reason we feel wealthy in america on i-banking compensation is because we are above others in our age bracket and/or geographic location.
comparing nominal salaries of SF to NY to london to dubai is like comparing comps by just comparing gross profits; one needs to look at it in terms of gross margin... i.e. relative wealth to your surroundings is the comparable metric, not nominal salary.
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