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Defeating the Top Groups Myth
 

FOXHOUND's picture
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 4:53pm
in out.JPG

So I've been reading these forums for a very long time - since I got to College really. They've been very helpful at certain points (certain people helping out with interview questions) but I found that there is such a massive amount of misinformation that seems to dictate how a lot of kids handle recruiting. I have a lot of time on my hands at the moment and figured I'd start posting here. Might even start a blog or something. FYI, I interned at two BB banks in IBD, including GS. I decided to jump ship to a better place and am just waiting to start now.

You have no real reason to believe me, but I got offers from GS, MS, Laz, and one more of the BB, where I interned my first summer (don't want to give too much away). Obviously I went to GS for my second summer.

In a nutshell, since the goal of a lot of kids who go into banking is to get a job at KKR/BX/TPG etc, here are a couple of clarifying facts:

1. Goldman Groups
When the 2nd year analysts were all leaving, they send firmwide or division wide emails detailing their plans. Tons of kids were headed to the aforementioned PE shops and it was NOT majority TMT kids - they weren't even the most represented IMO. Tons of kids from Industrials, CR, FIG, NR, etc were in the mix and appeared just as frequently. I had met some kids from TMT that didn't do anything for their first 6 months in that group, making PE recruiting extremely difficult for them. Everything is a bit different there now that they've instituted their new policy on timing of recruiting and I'm not sure how that's affected people, but I imagine it's only hurting and frustrating a lot of analysts. Every industry group in GS does EVERYTHING. Capital structures, M&A, equity raises, anti-raid, retainer advice, LBOs, etc. You really just want to avoid groups such as credit and lev fin, along with sponsors which really does nothing at GS.

2. MS Groups
MS M&A is a great group, no doubt. Doesn't mean because your in industrials or tech you are at any sort of disadvantage. I have friends at one of the toughest buyout shops to break into who were from MS but not M&A. And meeting their colleagues, you realize there are kids from the most random groups (ones that people on this board dismiss all too easily)

3. Moelis
I'm assuming it's trolls that were going to start working there, but all this hype about MoCo is unsubstantiated. I don't have much to add to that. A couple friends interned there, I know one kid who left, but they seem to push this culture down your throat and everyone starts drinking the kool-aid while they are there

4. Lean shops
Honestly, if your looking for the best experience, get into a lean group - most GS groups are like this, Laz sort of is, and a lot of the great boutiques (Greenhill, Evercore, PWP - although they are not good for PE recruiting) and I believe many of MS's groups too. You can chat all you want about this bank or that bank, but it's really about the experience you gain in two years and how that positions you for your next job

zsurf's picture

Thank god for some sanity....

(Baboon, 100
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 4:58pm

Thank god for some sanity....

WSO_Ninja's picture

If only there were more

(Chimp, 12
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:07pm

If only there were more people like you on here.

NAV1557's picture

FOXHOUND wrote: 2. MS

IB
(Chimp, 8
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:15pm
FOXHOUND:

2. MS Groups
MS M&A is a great group, no doubt. Doesn't mean because your in industrials or tech you are at any sort of disadvantage. I have friends at one of the toughest buyout shops to break into who were from MS but not M&A. And meeting their colleagues, you realize there are kids from the most random groups (ones that people on this board dismiss all too easily)

Great post, FOXHOUND.

I don't know why people always dismiss MS groups outside of M&A. I know that usually 1-2 analysts sometimes more) in the tech group get offers from just SLP/TPG every year. Sounds like solid placement if you ask me... (though to be fair, the group is similar to GS with internal M&A).

FOXHOUND's picture

Actually, MS Menlo splits up

(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:22pm

Actually, MS Menlo splits up their tech m&a and tech coverage teams. NYC basically has a media/telecom group - I'm not sure if they do everything themselves or export to M&A

In reply to FOXHOUND
NAV1557's picture

FOXHOUND wrote: Actually, MS

IB
(Chimp, 8
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:27pm
FOXHOUND:

Actually, MS Menlo splits up their tech m&a and tech coverage teams. NYC basically has a media/telecom group - I'm not sure if they do everything themselves or export to M&A

This used to be the setup a few years ago, but they have since integrated the two teams. There are analysts that are designated to do more M&A work, but no separate division.

FOXHOUND's picture

Ah, I see. Thanks for

(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:29pm

Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up - my info on west coast teams is a tad outdated

TheKing's picture

Thanks for the advice, Master

O
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:33pm

Thanks for the advice, Master Miller.

Check out my WSO Blog

In reply to FOXHOUND
NAV1557's picture

FOXHOUND wrote: Ah, I see.

IB
(Chimp, 8
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:39pm
FOXHOUND:

Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up - my info on west coast teams is a tad outdated

No worries...I only recently learned that fact too.

chubbybunny's picture

You post should be BANNED for

O
(Orangutan, 264
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:42pm

You post should be BANNED for ruining my childhood dreams.

Every night, I dreamt of working at GS TMT/MS M&A...

Where I will be making millions with models & bottles...

When I could straight up tell the other monkeys "I'm GS TMT bitch show some respect", and they listen...

Where I could enter a bar, say I'm at GS TMT and panties start dropping...

When I could scream at the useless ops MD for taking too long to fix the printer, even if he's 20 years older than me...

When B-schools will start cumming when they see GS TMT on my resume...

And you're saying this is not true?? SCREW YOU MAN

can_lah's picture

^ not even remotely funny.

 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:54pm

^ not even remotely funny.

In reply to NAV1557
Banqueiro's picture

--

(Chimp, 4
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 2:03am

--

monkeyc's picture

classy...this is like a

(Orangutan, 340
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 6:22pm

classy...this is like a "peace out I'm going to PE" email for college, except with lots of useful information
just to add, Goldman Industrials and FIG are almost as heavily targeted as TMT though, so their inclusion isn't necessarily a direct counter to the top group argument
also, the levfin/M&A route only works with good dealflow, because your competitiveness is based on modelling/crunching skills based on handling that dealflow, and less so on selection prestige and industry knowledge as would be the case with a top coverage group - in other words, you can pick up a lot fro senior about financial institutions or oil and gas without deals, but you can't learn how to handle difference tranches and special scenarios in a waterfall without doing it

FOXHOUND's picture

Since this is for a summer

(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 6:25pm

Since this is for a summer position, I would probably go with MS. While in reality, MS isn't quite what it used to be, it's brand equity is still extremely powerful. You really can't go wrong, but I think for the moment, you jump on the MS ship, get into a good group (again, doesn't have to be M&A), and kill it during your summer. Worst case scenario: Your an analyst at MS. Other scenarios: You can get back in touch with alums at JPM, which shouldn't be too tough as long as you explain to them what your doing and why, you could move to a different group in MS, or you could go to a different bank.

I say this because you haven't done banking yet, so you don't even know if you'll like it at all (in which case, you'll be looking at other options - MS will help more for getting interviews), or maybe you don't like the BB model (in which case jumping to a boutique is easier from MS), or maybe you become a tool and decide you need to work at GS (in which case, MS going to be far better than JPM)

All that said, if you really like the people in the groups at JPM, run with that. Your looking at 2 years of hell if you decide to take an offer at these places, so you need to be around people that will make that experience livable. But, often times, people (including alums) are a lot nicer in the recruiting process than they are once your working. I would try and talk to one of your alums at JPM in a candid conversation about your options tonight.

It's a good problem. Don't sweat it too much. Full time decision would have been a bit of a different story.

Beef's picture

Great post.

IB
(Gorilla, 718
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 6:28pm

Great post.

Wall Street leaders now understand that they made a mistake, one born of their innocent and trusting nature. They trusted ordinary Americans to behave more responsibly than they themselves ever would, and these ordinary Americans betrayed their trust.

TheKing's picture

Don't listen to

O
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 6:53pm

Don't listen to FOXHOUND...his transmission signal is coming from INSIDE WSO!

Check out my WSO Blog

2x2Matrix's picture

I'm giving you a SB because

CO
(King Kong, 1,030
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 7:59pm

One of those lights, slightly brighter than the rest, will be my wingtip passing over.

Tarzan123's picture

Help me better understand why

(Chimp, 5
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 8:10pm
FOXHOUND's picture

You'll technically be on the

(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 8:25pm
FOXHOUND's picture

^All that is just GS

(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 8:25pm
boutiquebank4life's picture

GS sponsors = u do nothing

IB
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 8:53pm
pivot1990's picture

And how about BAML, UBS, DB

 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 9:02pm
KevinNYC's picture

There's absolutely nothing

HF
(Orangutan, 262
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 9:12pm
analystforhire's picture

DB and UBS do modeling

IB
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 9:30pm
FOXHOUND's picture

@2x2/beef - Thanks, I'll try

(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 1:27am
FOXHOUND's picture

Also, I knew two guys in GS

(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 1:28am
HappyThanksgiving's picture

Terrific post foxhound...what

(Monkey, 63
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 1:54am
FOXHOUND's picture

I'm not sure what

(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 2:53am
HappyThanksgiving's picture

awesome, how does Lazard

(Monkey, 63
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 3:09am
FOXHOUND's picture

Honestly, don't worry about

(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 3:14am
HappyThanksgiving's picture

appreciate the advice,

(Monkey, 63
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 3:16am
Steelo's picture

FOXHOUND, sent you a PM

IB
(Baboon, 131
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 3:42am
Marcus_Halberstram's picture

Thanks for the info. But I

PE
(Neanderthal, 3,446
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 4:26am

Financial Modeling Training
Guide to Finance Interviews
Banking Resume

APAE's picture

Brilliantly candid post, good

(Neanderthal, 3,713
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 5:05am

A lot of people do certain things to add days to their life. I do things to add life to my days.

FOXHOUND's picture

Marcus, I totally agree with

(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 5:06am
FOXHOUND's picture

@HappyThanksGiving - I

(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 5:12am
firefighter's picture

how would you rank the top PE

IB
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 5:29am
In reply to TheKing
J15's picture

TheKing wrote: Don't listen

IB
(Baboon, 132
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 5:33am
FOXHOUND's picture

I think Apollo,

(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 5:36am
ShreddiesBrah's picture

[x]

(King Kong, 1,337
 
Points)
 on 4/24/13 at 8:33am
FOXHOUND's picture

^No.

(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 2:37pm
MonkeyBizness's picture

Great post. Here's my

IB
(Chimp, 8
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 3:15pm
ucla's picture

Could you elaborate on

IB
(Monkey, 55
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 6:14pm
leveredarb's picture

Useful post to put things

(King Kong, 1,263
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 6:57pm
no homo's picture

Beautiful post. Just to

HF
(Orangutan, 270
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 7:42pm
FOXHOUND's picture

Yeah, again, I agree with the

(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 9:19pm
FOXHOUND's picture

@ucla - I have no idea how

(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 9:23pm
ucla's picture

I appreciate the insight, and

IB
(Monkey, 55
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 9:45pm
FOXHOUND's picture

@ucla Like I said in my

(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 10:11pm
ucla's picture

I'll speak to you further

IB
(Monkey, 55
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 10:57pm
theprodigy's picture

ucla... you can send me pm

IB
(Monkey, 37
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 11:32pm

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