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Wall Street Oasis » Forums » I-Banking Bullpen
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Defeating the Top Groups Myth
 

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FOXHOUND's picture
FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 4:53pm
in out.JPG

So I've been reading these forums for a very long time - since I got to College really. They've been very helpful at certain points (certain people helping out with interview questions) but I found that there is such a massive amount of misinformation that seems to dictate how a lot of kids handle recruiting. I have a lot of time on my hands at the moment and figured I'd start posting here. Might even start a blog or something. FYI, I interned at two BB banks in IBD, including GS. I decided to jump ship to a better place and am just waiting to start now.

You have no real reason to believe me, but I got offers from GS, MS, Laz, and one more of the BB, where I interned my first summer (don't want to give too much away). Obviously I went to GS for my second summer.

In a nutshell, since the goal of a lot of kids who go into banking is to get a job at KKR/BX/TPG etc, here are a couple of clarifying facts:

1. Goldman Groups
When the 2nd year analysts were all leaving, they send firmwide or division wide emails detailing their plans. Tons of kids were headed to the aforementioned PE shops and it was NOT majority TMT kids - they weren't even the most represented IMO. Tons of kids from Industrials, CR, FIG, NR, etc were in the mix and appeared just as frequently. I had met some kids from TMT that didn't do anything for their first 6 months in that group, making PE recruiting extremely difficult for them. Everything is a bit different there now that they've instituted their new policy on timing of recruiting and I'm not sure how that's affected people, but I imagine it's only hurting and frustrating a lot of analysts. Every industry group in GS does EVERYTHING. Capital structures, M&A, equity raises, anti-raid, retainer advice, LBOs, etc. You really just want to avoid groups such as credit and lev fin, along with sponsors which really does nothing at GS.

2. MS Groups
MS M&A is a great group, no doubt. Doesn't mean because your in industrials or tech you are at any sort of disadvantage. I have friends at one of the toughest buyout shops to break into who were from MS but not M&A. And meeting their colleagues, you realize there are kids from the most random groups (ones that people on this board dismiss all too easily)

3. Moelis
I'm assuming it's trolls that were going to start working there, but all this hype about MoCo is unsubstantiated. I don't have much to add to that. A couple friends interned there, I know one kid who left, but they seem to push this culture down your throat and everyone starts drinking the kool-aid while they are there

4. Lean shops
Honestly, if your looking for the best experience, get into a lean group - most GS groups are like this, Laz sort of is, and a lot of the great boutiques (Greenhill, Evercore, PWP - although they are not good for PE recruiting) and I believe many of MS's groups too. You can chat all you want about this bank or that bank, but it's really about the experience you gain in two years and how that positions you for your next job

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Tags:
  • PE Recruiting
  • gs tmt
  • I-Banking Bullpen
zsurf's picture

Thank god for some sanity....

zsurf
     
 
(Baboon, 100
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 4:58pm

Thank god for some sanity....

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WSO_Ninja's picture

If only there were more

WSO_Ninja
     
 
(Chimp, 12
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:07pm

If only there were more people like you on here.

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NAV1557's picture

FOXHOUND wrote: 2. MS

NAV1557
      IB
 
(Chimp, 8
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:15pm
FOXHOUND:

2. MS Groups
MS M&A is a great group, no doubt. Doesn't mean because your in industrials or tech you are at any sort of disadvantage. I have friends at one of the toughest buyout shops to break into who were from MS but not M&A. And meeting their colleagues, you realize there are kids from the most random groups (ones that people on this board dismiss all too easily)

Great post, FOXHOUND.

I don't know why people always dismiss MS groups outside of M&A. I know that usually 1-2 analysts sometimes more) in the tech group get offers from just SLP/TPG every year. Sounds like solid placement if you ask me... (though to be fair, the group is similar to GS with internal M&A).

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FOXHOUND's picture

Actually, MS Menlo splits up

FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:22pm

Actually, MS Menlo splits up their tech m&a and tech coverage teams. NYC basically has a media/telecom group - I'm not sure if they do everything themselves or export to M&A

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NAV1557's picture

FOXHOUND wrote: Actually, MS

NAV1557
      IB
 
(Chimp, 8
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:27pm
FOXHOUND:

Actually, MS Menlo splits up their tech m&a and tech coverage teams. NYC basically has a media/telecom group - I'm not sure if they do everything themselves or export to M&A

This used to be the setup a few years ago, but they have since integrated the two teams. There are analysts that are designated to do more M&A work, but no separate division.

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FOXHOUND's picture

Ah, I see. Thanks for

FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:29pm

Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up - my info on west coast teams is a tad outdated

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TheKing's picture

Thanks for the advice, Master

TheKing
      O
 
 
(Senior Neanderthal, 5,141
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:33pm

Thanks for the advice, Master Miller.

Check out my WSO Blog

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NAV1557's picture

FOXHOUND wrote: Ah, I see.

NAV1557
      IB
 
(Chimp, 8
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:39pm
FOXHOUND:

Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up - my info on west coast teams is a tad outdated

No worries...I only recently learned that fact too.

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chubbybunny's picture

You post should be BANNED for

chubbybunny
      O
 
(Orangutan, 264
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:42pm

You post should be BANNED for ruining my childhood dreams.

Every night, I dreamt of working at GS TMT/MS M&A...

Where I will be making millions with models & bottles...

When I could straight up tell the other monkeys "I'm GS TMT bitch show some respect", and they listen...

Where I could enter a bar, say I'm at GS TMT and panties start dropping...

When I could scream at the useless ops MD for taking too long to fix the printer, even if he's 20 years older than me...

When B-schools will start cumming when they see GS TMT on my resume...

And you're saying this is not true?? SCREW YOU MAN

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can_lah's picture

^ not even remotely funny.

can_lah
     
 
(Senior Monkey, 77
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 5:54pm

^ not even remotely funny.

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Banqueiro's picture

--

Banqueiro
     
 
(Chimp, 4
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 2:03am

--

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monkeyc's picture

classy...this is like a

monkeyc
     
 
(Orangutan, 340
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 6:22pm

classy...this is like a "peace out I'm going to PE" email for college, except with lots of useful information
just to add, Goldman Industrials and FIG are almost as heavily targeted as TMT though, so their inclusion isn't necessarily a direct counter to the top group argument
also, the levfin/M&A route only works with good dealflow, because your competitiveness is based on modelling/crunching skills based on handling that dealflow, and less so on selection prestige and industry knowledge as would be the case with a top coverage group - in other words, you can pick up a lot fro senior about financial institutions or oil and gas without deals, but you can't learn how to handle difference tranches and special scenarios in a waterfall without doing it

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FOXHOUND's picture

Since this is for a summer

FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 6:25pm

Since this is for a summer position, I would probably go with MS. While in reality, MS isn't quite what it used to be, it's brand equity is still extremely powerful. You really can't go wrong, but I think for the moment, you jump on the MS ship, get into a good group (again, doesn't have to be M&A), and kill it during your summer. Worst case scenario: Your an analyst at MS. Other scenarios: You can get back in touch with alums at JPM, which shouldn't be too tough as long as you explain to them what your doing and why, you could move to a different group in MS, or you could go to a different bank.

I say this because you haven't done banking yet, so you don't even know if you'll like it at all (in which case, you'll be looking at other options - MS will help more for getting interviews), or maybe you don't like the BB model (in which case jumping to a boutique is easier from MS), or maybe you become a tool and decide you need to work at GS (in which case, MS going to be far better than JPM)

All that said, if you really like the people in the groups at JPM, run with that. Your looking at 2 years of hell if you decide to take an offer at these places, so you need to be around people that will make that experience livable. But, often times, people (including alums) are a lot nicer in the recruiting process than they are once your working. I would try and talk to one of your alums at JPM in a candid conversation about your options tonight.

It's a good problem. Don't sweat it too much. Full time decision would have been a bit of a different story.

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Beef's picture

Great post.

Beef
      IB
 
 
(Gorilla, 718
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 6:28pm

Great post.

Wall Street leaders now understand that they made a mistake, one born of their innocent and trusting nature. They trusted ordinary Americans to behave more responsibly than they themselves ever would, and these ordinary Americans betrayed their trust.

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TheKing's picture

Don't listen to

TheKing
      O
 
 
(Senior Neanderthal, 5,141
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 6:53pm

Don't listen to FOXHOUND...his transmission signal is coming from INSIDE WSO!

Check out my WSO Blog

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2x2Matrix's picture

I'm giving you a SB because

2x2Matrix
      CO
 
 
(King Kong, 1,011
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 7:59pm
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One of those lights, slightly brighter than the rest, will be my wingtip passing over.

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Tarzan123's picture

Help me better understand why

Tarzan123
     
 
(Chimp, 5
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 8:10pm
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FOXHOUND's picture

You'll technically be on the

FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 8:25pm
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FOXHOUND's picture

^All that is just GS

FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 8:25pm
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boutiquebank4life's picture

GS sponsors = u do nothing

boutiquebank4life
      IB
 
(Senior Gorilla, 930
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 8:53pm
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pivot1990's picture

And how about BAML, UBS, DB

pivot1990
     
 
(Senior Baboon, 200
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 9:02pm
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KevinNYC's picture

There's absolutely nothing

KevinNYC
      HF
 
(Orangutan, 262
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 9:12pm
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analystforhire's picture

DB and UBS do modeling

analystforhire
      IB
 
(Senior Orangutan, 460
 
Points)
 on 3/15/11 at 9:30pm
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FOXHOUND's picture

@2x2/beef - Thanks, I'll try

FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 1:27am
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FOXHOUND's picture

Also, I knew two guys in GS

FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 1:28am
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HappyThanksgiving's picture

Terrific post foxhound...what

HappyThanksgiving
     
 
(Monkey, 63
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 1:54am
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FOXHOUND's picture

I'm not sure what

FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 2:53am
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HappyThanksgiving's picture

awesome, how does Lazard

HappyThanksgiving
     
 
(Monkey, 63
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 3:09am
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FOXHOUND's picture

Honestly, don't worry about

FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 3:14am
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HappyThanksgiving's picture

appreciate the advice,

HappyThanksgiving
     
 
(Monkey, 63
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 3:16am
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Steelo's picture

FOXHOUND, sent you a PM

Steelo
      IB
 
(Baboon, 131
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 3:42am
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Marcus_Halberstram's picture

Thanks for the info. But I

Marcus_Halberstram
      PE
 
 
(Neanderthal, 3,435
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 4:26am

Financial Modeling Training
Guide to Finance Interviews
Banking Resume

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APAE's picture

Brilliantly candid post, good

APAE
     
 
(Neanderthal, 3,660
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 5:05am

A lot of people do certain things to add days to their life. I do things to add life to my days.

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FOXHOUND's picture

Marcus, I totally agree with

FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 5:06am
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FOXHOUND's picture

@HappyThanksGiving - I

FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 5:12am
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firefighter's picture

how would you rank the top PE

firefighter
      IB
 
(Senior Gorilla, 967
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 5:29am
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J15's picture

TheKing wrote: Don't listen

J15
      IB
 
(Baboon, 132
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 5:33am
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FOXHOUND's picture

I think Apollo,

FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 5:36am
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ShreddiesBrah's picture

[x]

ShreddiesBrah
     
 
(King Kong, 1,337
 
Points)
 on 4/24/13 at 8:33am
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FOXHOUND's picture

^No.

FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 2:37pm
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MonkeyBizness's picture

Great post. Here's my

MonkeyBizness
      IB
 
(Chimp, 8
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 3:15pm
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ucla's picture

Could you elaborate on

ucla
      IB
 
(Monkey, 55
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 6:14pm
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leveredarb's picture

Useful post to put things

leveredarb
     
 
(King Kong, 1,231
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 6:57pm
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no homo's picture

Beautiful post. Just to

no homo
      HF
 
 
(Orangutan, 266
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 7:42pm
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FOXHOUND's picture

Yeah, again, I agree with the

FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 9:19pm
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FOXHOUND's picture

@ucla - I have no idea how

FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 9:23pm
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ucla's picture

I appreciate the insight, and

ucla
      IB
 
(Monkey, 55
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 9:45pm
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FOXHOUND's picture

@ucla Like I said in my

FOXHOUND
     
 
(Baboon, 112
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 10:11pm
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ucla's picture

I'll speak to you further

ucla
      IB
 
(Monkey, 55
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 10:57pm
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theprodigy's picture

ucla... you can send me pm

theprodigy
      IB
 
(Monkey, 37
 
Points)
 on 3/16/11 at 11:32pm
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