What is the current scene for Indian Students studying in (M7 +Next 8) Business Schools in US?Are they able to get good jobs after MBA ?How much role does Visa sponsoring play in final FT Recruiting for Indians there who doesn't have work permit/green card ?Is the competition tough for foreign graduates (~around 40% of the class I guess ) as the firms may have limited quota for foreign students.
I am planning on my MBA and I was shortlisting schools .I would like to know your honest opinion on this.Is it worth taking 100k + loan and apply to US MBA schools.I don't have that kind of money but I am willing to take risk if it really worth
Or
Should I get the best MBA (IIMABC/ISB) from India and get into those dream companies and work hard and get cross office transfer to US/UK/Singapore/Europe later on.The breath of good companies recruiting here would be small comparatively
Simple question. Do you want to live in the US or in India? If US-> Go to American schools. If India-> Go to Indian schools.
Well write GMAT. If you get above 700 you can try for top US schools/ISB where MBB recruit. Write CAT, if you convert ABC call then do IIM A/B/C.
Btw for top consulting firms/ibanks your visa status does not matter. If they like you they will sponsor your H1B. Or worst comes worst, you go work at McKinsey Mumbai office.
Btw you would be better served by asking these questions at GMATclub or Pagalguy imo.
You are correct about Gmatclub and Pagalguy but I just wanted to know this forum's view also on the topic. But I guess WSO is all about Finance/Prestigious choices/Trolling.
WSO's good overall but yes it has its fair share of idiots. Don't be discouraged, there are excellent threads if you look for them and know which users to take seriously.
OP,
-- IMHO: Anything other than H / S / W and you're better off at ISB. Only reason I say H / S / W is worst case if you don't get a job in US you can come back to India and still have a competitive advantage over someone from ISB / IIM (whether that advantage is worth the money+time spent in obtaining it is your decision to make). Other M7 schools (Chicago / Kellogg / Columbia / MIT) are considered on par with ISB / IIM in India so you won't have any special advantages over those grads, all you'll have is an equally respected degree bought at 4 times the cost + an extra years worth of lost income. HBS > ISB; Kellogg = ISB. This is all applicable only if you don't get a job and have to move back to India. ISB isn't really that well known in US so I don't think a degree from there will be particularly impressive here.
-- I'm not sure about transferring to US etc. cos honestly in this environment it seems there are more than enough Americans to do these jobs and I don't know what special advantage you (or I or anyone else from India) will bring ;) Sure there will be the occasional trip / client meeting etc. but doubt they'd bring a lot of people over from India on a consistent basis. If you absolutely want to work in US / get GC / become a US citizen then by all means get a US MBA, just don't expect it to be very useful in India.
-- Not trying to be pessimistic, just realistic. 200k is a lot of money and if you're not 100% sure about a US MBA, it could be spent on something more tangible like a house in India (which seems to only increase in value j/k ;)
-- Found an interesting thread on pagal guy related to this, it's a bit old and things have improved since then but there's some good info in there: http://www.pagalguy.com/forum/international-indian-mba-schools-acceptin…
-- I had asked the same question a while back on this thread: //www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/is-attending-a-top-us-b-school-worth-it-…
There was one excellent response:
"1. It all depends on what you want to do. B-School recruiting is broken into finance, consulting, and industry. If you want to do finance or consulting, visas for internationals SHOULD NOT be an issue, at least at the top firms. I do know that in finance, there are some new legal regulations that make it harder for banks to sponsor/hire internationals but I know at the major consulting firms you should not face an issue. Industry is a totally different ball game and yes it is significantly harder to get sponsorship. Especially if you want to work at a cpg like unilever or p&g - you can just forget about it.
If you are keen on staying in China or India and you want to do anything but PE or start your own business, I highly recommend looking at local schools. I can speak for India. If you want to work for McKinsey in India for instance, going to Columbia, IMHO is a stupid decision. For starters, McK India primarily hires from Indian bschools and getting an interview for the Mumbai office out of Columbia would be MUCH harder than getting an interview from ISB or IIM. Second, McK India pays less than 50% of McK US so you can forget about paying back those loans. Singapore is VERY different. It pays about as much as the US and the taxes are much lower so the economics work out. Don't know much about China.
There is no arguing about the value of a degree from HBS, Stanford, or even Columbia. Those brands will stay on your resume for life and they will serve you well. That said, if you are Indian and want to live your life in India, ISB will get you a MUCH better bang for your buck. The recruiting is great, the alumni network is obviously very strong and the brand equity is the same as that of a Columbia (prob not HBS though)
Finally think about the experience you want. The class at ISB is rather monolithic while at HBS 40% is international I think. If you want a diverse experience and build a global network, you might want to consider looking at the international schools and recruiting for top finance/consulting jobs which will not be that hard to do out of the top schools and then coming back to home country 5 years later.
Hope that helps...."
Cheers
Valleybandar,
Thank you very much for the advice.I would keep this in mind.
How much do you like curry?
IIM is an EXCELLENT school. If I couldn't get into an M7 school, or if I couldn't afford an M7 school, IIM or Oxford would be my next choices. (I am a US citizen and have no connection to India.)
NPV at an American banker's discount rate(8%) for HBS, Chicago, Stanford, or Wharton is probably a little higher than IIM, but IIM has a much higher IRR. $20K in tuition + 10K in living expenses for two years = globally recognized MBA worth hundreds of thousands.
Dude, in the US, it's not burgers, it's pepperoni pizza!Regardless, I'm not sure IIM offers the same NPV as HBS, Stanford, or Chicago at an 8% discount rate, but it sure as heck offers the best value just about anywhere for MBAs.
The big question is how low is your risk premium? If you would borrow $100K to invest in the stock market, HBS is probably a better choice. If you would feel a lot better not dealing with that risk, IIM is the better choice.
Praveen - if you haven't already done so, check out the AskAlex thread and ask him for his view.
taking a loan of 200k for an MBA at US is too risky, not only for Indians but for Americans too....
^^ Well if the end goal is MBB he doesn't necessarily need an M7+ Tuck. Schools like Duke/Ross/Darden will do fine as well. And for those 710-720 is enough, in addition to the factors you mentioned.
Some other points:
for India: more attractive peers, closer to home (I presume).
for US: world-wide name recognition, more fun.
IIM has the same global recognition as INSEAD, maybe even LSE/LSB. It's not Harvard, but IIM graduates make it to NYC just as easily as folks from the top European schools.
But yes, it is better suited for Asia, particularly India.
I'm a native-born US citizen. I've never been to India. But if I needed an MBA, I would think long and hard about IIM. It has the value of an M7+Oxford+Cambridge+LBS+INSEAD with 1/5th the cost.
I think IIMA PGPEX would be suited for you.Don't go for 2 Year MBA Program.Would not match your expectations.Just saying.
Dude I think Illini got into freakin Princeton!
Don't worry bro. I have never even been to Pune. All I know is there are quite a few people from your company (if I guessed it right in the consulting thread) in the facebook converts group.
Btw maybe you can use your experience to get into a Big 4 firm or a boutique consulting company? You tried that?
Studying in the US will probably open more doors for you and make your career progress quicker.
^^^ Yes, but studying in the US costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and requires taking out a kind of debt that's about as certain as death and taxes.
Think about it. For $160K, you can live in Chicago and pay CASH for a 900 square foot condo on Grant Park that's walking distance to the CBOT. Or you can get an MBA from HBS.
How much wealth do you need to really be happy in life? Saving or making $160K can make a lot of people pretty darned happy, and IIM gives you 80% of what HBS gives you.
Money is the issue otherwise 99 times out of 100,I would choose US MBA.That said ,I am glad we still have few MBA schools in India that can provide decent career ladder.
Btw I am surprised by Illini's comment that IIMs are on par with INSEAD as far as global recognition goes. Really? I know IIMs are nice, but on par with INSEAD, global powerhouse?
I am kinda hoping it does. I wasn't sure whether I should take my IIM admit or try again next for a US school, probably in the Duke/Ross/Darden range (got rejected with interview by Ross this year). I guess I won't be doing it.
Illini has a reputation of going overboard on certain issues. :p
As a close relative to an IIM-A grad now working in a pretty (for M7) crappy job and with little to no geographic mobility as a result of lack of name recognition, trust me the IIMs are no INSEAD.
Well the head of structured finance at a Big 5 bank in Canada is an IIM grad. As is the EVP and Chief Risk Officer of another Big 5 bank in Canada. Seems their IIM degrees didn't stop them. I guess at the end of the day it comes down to the individual and not the institution. I am sure a person who graduated with the rank of 900 out of 900 at Harvard is probably struck in a crappy job as well.
Full disclosure: I made it into a few of the lower IIMs and ISB, but I dint accept that shit. I would advice everyone to aim higher.
The lower IIMs/ISB are rubbish, but you honestly get what you paid for. A/B/C is a whole different story, and I can't comment on those schools.
Education in the US is pricey but it isn't impossible to get scholarships, and is actually well worth the experience. Breaking into banking and MBB is bloody hard to impossible though, if you are an Indian male from an engineering background from a lower ranked B-school.
Unless someone is explicitly looking for a career in investment banking/MBB consulting, I think the non-ABC IIMs and ISB will do just fine if the person wants to stay back in India. Especially if someone is interested in general management at companies such as Reliance/Tata/Birla/M&M etc, the non-ABC IIMs will do just fine. For FMCG companies IIM-Lucknow is excellent as well.
Well the whole point of going to a US-bschool is to get into top banking/consulting jobs, for which you have to get into A/B/C in India, and we know hard A/B/C are to get into. If someone at the end of the day is going to end up at a non-banking/consulting job, why go to the US at a cost of $150K, which is Rs 75lacs? For that amount of money one can buy a house in India and play the real estate game. Will lead to much better returns. And if you are going to end up at a non-banking/consulting job, might as well go to the lower level IIMs and ISBs at a fraction of the cost.
Seriously folks, I know a few people who graduated from top US schools at the peak of recession and had to come back to India. Now most of their salaries go towards paying loan installments with little left over to enjoy life. Think hard and think twice before taking the burden of US education. In frothy times it's good, but in bad economic times it can quickly become a burden. Unless ofcourse you come from a well off family, then go right ahead!
^^ +1 on the lower IIMs. -1 on ISB .Were you admitted to Mohali Campus ? Care to throw some light on this ? Where are you going now finally?
ISB Hyderabad. I came to the US, and did an MS instead. This was at the peak of the recession, and I felt that I was better off doing something which would help me build my technical skill sets.
I think ISB is good for consulting. Not sure whether it's okay for banking as it's a 1 year program.
Indian MBA grad here (A/B/C) who paid something like 10K USD for his entire MBA with lodging and food (all of which was covered in a scholarship to boot!)
I think a lot of what is relevant has been covered here, except I think no one's really captured how difficult it actually is for a US grad to get placed in India, given the way hiring works here. There are no real associate hiring programs, IIM grads join as senior analysts in banks and junior associates in consulting firms.
Banks atleast pay at par with US salaries (which is a fairly sweet deal considering cost of living in India), consulting firms tend to be literally half of the US pay. PE is literally the only place where you will get your due, assuming of course you have prior PE experience
Also as someone pointed out above, its really H/W/S that people regard as being prestigious schools (simply because they are phenomenal brands), everything else gets classified into a fairly random bucket of a " US MBA "(be it Duke or Princeton or Sloan) largely because there aren't too many US MBAs in the Indian corporate world yet.
If you have the right profile with great acads (IIT/BITS/Top NIT or one of the top Delhi colleges) then you can pretty easily score a NY/London/HK/Sing internship in pretty much any BB bank or MBB from an IIM. Converting the internship then pretty much is in your hands. Not sure its that easy from a US school.
ISB is a slightly different animal, definitely excellent for consulting but not so much for banking, plus given the relatively high cost, the ROI argument kinda fades away
PM'ed you.
Also, I wonder whether being a placement coordinator/placement rep helps with recruiting.
^ Its ~$30k now at IIMA/B/C now for 2 years.ISB is ~$40k for 1 year course.Not sure what is your ROI argument here.Are you saying ISBs are costly in comparison to A/B/C ?
Regarding Finance profile,are you saying that the Financial firms pay in the same ball park range as they pay in US to an Indian A/B/C/ISB graduate at an Indian office (Mumbai/Gurgaon types) ?Can you give some examples.
Getting into MBB : Can you shed some light on this.Heard that you need a stellar UG cpga to get a SA offer for M/B/B in A/B/C.For ISB you need to be in deans list to get a shot at FT interview.Is this true ?This was my understanding from my friends who study at A/B/C and ISB.
ISB is $50K now and doesn't place well in Banks/PE, which automatically reduces ROI (Higher cost, lower salary levels). Largely due to lack of an associate hiring program in India plus given lack of too many junior bankers in their class
All global banks in India pay at the global level (NY/HK/London/Mumbai/Sing)
For M/B/B academics matter and being a girl helps. SA hiring is a little easier than FT hiring since FT hiring is almost entirely focused on your MBA GPA. But yes having a strong gpa is pretty much the easiest way to get into M/B/B. They typically pick 20 odd from each IIM and you do have at least 2-3 guys there with shitty GPAs.
Also if you just look for profiles of people at top PE firms in India, you will find that most have an MBA from one of the top US schools.
Carlyle: A couple of Harvard, rest IIMs, XLRI, and a couple of CAs. IL&FS: Majority Indian MBAs. IDFC-PE: Majority Indian MBAs. Jacob Ballas: Majority Indian MBAs. TPG: Mix of Indian and Harvard/Stanford. Blackstone: Mix of Indian and Harvard/Stanford. Chrys Capital: Founder is HBS, the rest are Indian MBAs/CAs.
At the higher levels I see HBS/Stanford/Wharton MBAs. I think the reason is because these people were probably already at the top PE firms in the US and were sent to India to establish the India office.
So your assertion that "most" have a US MBA is slightly far-fetched. Some do, a lot don't. Heck, quite a few don't even have MBAs and are doing fine with their BCom/MCom/CA degree.
Who pays $50K for ISB. It's shit. I spoke to many people who got in the same year I was admitted, and no one seemed very impressive.
The obsession with grades is absurd, networking is nil, ridic tuition, general junta is a bit dicky and definitely not even remotely close to those at IIML.
IIML is a surprisingly good, tons(50+) from my undergrad school ended up going to IIML.
The faculty at ISB seemed pretty good though, and it would be terribly harsh to say something negative about the academics at that school.
Not worth the money kids, Darden and the lower tiers are throwing around a fair wad as scholarships, aim at these schools and try to get them to reduce tuition. The MSF, MSCF programs seem to be a better bang for your buck though.
I agree with you to a large extent.It would be always better at top 15 MBA school at US with around >= 70% scholarship (70% of 150k).So you pay around 50k-60k for your entire expenses (tuition + living ) and get a 100k+ paying job.Definitely worth more than an average student at ISB/A/B/C.
The catch is : Can you get around 70% scholarship? That would be tough.
First of all, there are really very very few MBB and IB offers in IIMs, and in ISB, IB is just a dream. Cost of MBA is not 10k now, total cost comes out to be more than 30k USD for IIM (A/B/C) and just close to 50k for ISB, that's the amount of loan people are taking right now. And while calculating NPV/IRR one must look at "domestic offers" because international placements are really scarce, the "payback period" for IIMs grads in India is not lower than 5 years (except for the very few placements in MBB and IB). But yes, there will be one big difference, Quality of life in India will be drastically lower than what you would get in US.
I know so many people from IIMs who are applying for another MBA/MFE/PhD in USA, because even in the worst of the times, US is still much better as a land of opportunity than India - that's the biggest difference.
So, if you want to live in India, then go for Indian MBA, otherwise Indian MBA is not comparable to US MBA. Worldwide recognition might be there but noone gives a shit about ISB/IIM guy when they see CV of Kellogs guy.
Finally, we can ignore all the BS, and come to the actual point. Career opportunities and quality of life is much much better in US than India (given you have friends there or you can make friends there). There is just too much of intelligent, hungry, ambitious but middle class or poor or socially miserable crowd to compete in India.
If you really want to live close to your family and friends in India, then Indian MBA makes sense otherwise deep in your heart you know the truth, and you don't need to forcibly justify that with NPV/IRR calculation, family and friends come first.
Total number of MBB offers made overall in A/B/C Combined are around 60 every year.That is very low number actually compared to around 1500 students studying across A/B/C.Lets take top 30% candidates that amounts to 450:60 i.e ~8:1 eyeing for that coveted M/B/B gig.
How is the ratio in US Bschools ?
You do realize that not everyone among the top students is looking for an M/B/B gig right? A lot of them want to get into finance (it's the highest paying after all), some want to get into tech, some want to get into marketing, few do entrepreneurship, some want to get into GM etc.
A proper ratio would be of people who WANT consulting gigs to people who GET consulting gigs. I am not qualified to comment on how many want consulting gigs, but I would say typically 25% of the class is into consulting
Out of 1500, that makes it about 350 people. And consulting is not just limited to MBB. There are other excellent firms like ATK, ZS, PRTM, SMC, Deloitte, Booz etc who recruit.
And always keep context in mind. 60 MBB offers might be "low" but look at the size of Indian economy. It's merely $1.5 trillion or so. Most Indian companies aren't large enough to warrant the expertise of MBB type firms.
Given the size of Indian economy and firms, 60 is a good number. As the Indian economy grows, the need for consultants will increase and the hiring will as well. Btw BCG started going to XLRI recently and McKinsey to IIM-L and apparently IIM-I. Consulting jobs are simply a function of size of the economy. When India is a $5trillion economy, the number of MBB offers at IIMs (and other top Indian schools) will zoom up.
Hence comparing IIMs to top US schools wrt to offers given by MBB is highly idiotic.
The question to ponder is, why would you want to be in the same cohort, with a bunch of 22 year old kids (mostly the IIT/NIT/BITS crowd) who are at school just to get the highest paying job. Are you willing to pay ~$40K for that experience?
I had already done the IIT/NIT/BITS thing, I loved it for the most part, but I dint want to do it again when i was 23-25.
I enjoyed my MS. I've been in the industry for almost years now, and I honestly don't have any regrets.
I think MSF, MSCF from Princeton/Columbia/CMU makes more sense than an MBA to get into Wall Street.
If you are an Indian male coming from an engineering background, it makes everything so much more difficult.
For me I wanted to move back to India. IIMs are highly regarded and the education is top-class. An American MBA would have cost me $150K. That's a lot of money. IIMs are cheap and still open up the doors I need.
Plus I am not really into MSF type degrees. MBA will give me the broadest career option. And I want to work on Dalal Street, not Wall Street.
I am paying $40k for the name, the network and the education. And to make good friends. 22-24 years party wayyyyyy more than an average grown up :P. I look forward to that. Spent my undergrad slaving away at a top ranked institution. I want to enjoy now.
And plus IIM brand in India is unbeatable. At the risk of sounding like Brady4MVP, I have seen girls behave differently with me after I told them I am going to ABC. I like the instant respect the name garners. To get a similar respect in the US I would have to get into HBS and I don't think I have the profile for HBS.
LOL!, good for you bro.
And as far as the number you quoted about 7 people going to Bain, it's not surprising. Bain is not a big player in India. McKinsey and BCG are. That's why BCG hired 17 from IIM-A. Similarly McKinsey hired 13 from IIM-C. These two have large India offices. Infact both BCG and McKinsey recently opened a Chennai office.
BCG and McKinsey also recruit from IITs and guess BITs and NITs. Bain wasn't as prolific in the undergrad placement scene
I think in India McKinsey solely hires from IITs. A friend of mine was rejected by them and he went to an NIT(though not Trichy or Surathkal).
Btw from IIM ABC you can work in IT for 4 years and do an internship at a top notch hedge fund. With my background, it would be impossible to get such a job, even if I miraculously got into HBS.
http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=24250843&authType=NAME_SEARCH&a…
Or working on graphics card to working at BX
http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=20469224&goback=.npv_9780661_47…
Or working at Oracle and getting into MSPE
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/khushboo-saraf/15/177/114
There are a few more examples of wild career switches that can be done from ABC. Not guaranteed, but possible. I don't want to get my hopes too high, but atleast I can hope that there's a chance for those dream jobs.
Also it seems like you are going to C :-P
Dude if you are from IIT I think you can easily crack the CAT with some prep. With IIT/IIM combo you will have unbeatable pedigree man. Seriously bro. Do it if you hate your job so much.
Awesome, awesome thread. Literally a one stop-shop for Indians thinking about b-school.
My one question is - is IIM C that awesome? I had the distinct impression IIM A/B are the tier 1 IIMs, IIM C is Tier 2, and the rest are Tier 3. I didn't know McKinsey recruited so heavily at IIM C??
Naaah. As far as recruiting goes A/B/C are the same. If you can't get a job at MBB from either one of those you won't get a job at MBB from the other two as well.
A and C are the oldest and have the strongest alumni base in Corporate India as both were established in 1961. They have SERIOUSLY deep ties in Indian industry.
As far as B goes, it was established in 1972 as a school for managers of India's many public sector corporations hence it's alumni base isn't as established as those of A and C in the private sector. But IIM-B became popular after the IT boom of the 2000s. Before then it was a 2 way race between A and C. In 2000s, thanks to the tech boom in Bangalore, the perception of the city shot up. And thanks to those companies, one could do a lot more industry projects during the school year. Plus Bangalore is a MUCH better city than either Ahmedabad or Kolkata. Ahmedabad is in a dry state (i.e no liquor) and Gujaratis are mostly vegetarians. So it can get boring at A. Bangalore has no such restrictions, has an awesome night life (by Indian standards) and pubs everywhere. That's why a lot of youngsters prefer B.
One thing I noticed is this
A - Really good for General Management as the school was established with the help of HBS. Think of this school as the HBS of India. Close to 100% case method, strongest reputation in eyes of the public and good GM/consulting recruiting. In a good year will get top PE firms as well. B- Really good for consulting as it has higher avg workexp than other A and C. Many non-MBB consulting firms stick to B for hiring. It's also good for PE and VC. Good for VC as it's in Bangalore and Bangalore is the tech capital of India -> startups galore. Think of this as the Stanford of India as both are located in the tech heartlands of their respective countries. C - Was established with the help of MIT. Is very quanty and known as THE finance campus of India. Really good for S&T and other markets related roles. Hedge funds flock to C (as opposed to PEVC at B) and I have seen some distressed funds recruit exclusively at C. Good for other finance roles as well. Think of this as the Wharton (and MIT and Columbia) of India. Is the least academic of the 3. Has liquor available in canteen.
Do they ? Are they comparable to a US school ? I can speak for Kellogg this year, out of 200 people who wanted consulting about 100 got internships at MBB. Not everyone who wanted consulting got it but everyone who wanted consulting got an interview from at least one out of MBB (most got 2). I'd be very impressed if everyone from IIM C who wanted a McK interview got one though I suspect that's not the case.
I'm sure IIM ABC is great and all but I wouldn't compare it to a top 5 US School. If it weren't for the cost I'd say places like Columbia and Chicago are far better schools in terms of alumni, research (modern econ theory practically came out of Chicago) and just general student body experience (sorry, studying with 300 other computer nerds is not my idea of fun) but sadly 150k is a LOT of money and 1$=50 Rupees. IIM's win out on cost but I doubt anybody can look at you with a straight face and say they'd go to IIM C over Chicago for purely professional reasons.
It's silly to compare IIMs with Kellogg, or any M7 for that matter, on absolute numbers. Again US consulting market is probably 10 or maybe even 20 times bigger than the Indian consulting market (US economy $15trillion, Indian economy $1.5 trillion). There are more jobs to go around in the US. It should be seen as a percentage. Of all the MBB jobs in the US, how many go to Kellogg? Of all the MBB jobs in India, how many go to ABC? That will give you a better picture. Comparing absolute numbers is retarded. You say 100 people from Kellogg got MBB jobs. But there are only about 80 or so MBB jobs in the ENTIRE INDIAN MARKET. Catch my point? Is it IIMs fault that Indian economy is small? As I mentioned before, as the Indian economy grows, the number of MBB jobs will increase as well.
No one is comparing ABC to a Top 5 US school. No one is denying that American schools are great and have made great strides in education and theory. It's no secret that American education is top notch. Notice the number of Indians flocking to America to do masters there? People know the worth of a Yankee education.
All I am saying is that if you want to live in India/Singapore/Middle East (quite a few ABC alums there), if you can't get into HSW, ABC are excellent schools that will open doors for you at a fraction of the cost. Nothing more nothing less. If money weren't a concern I would invest in asteroid mining. We live in a real world where $ do matter. And IIMs do a good job of giving you a good education, open doors to elite companies and give you a reputation at a fraction of the cost.
If you think IIMs are full of computer nerds, you are sadly mistaken. If you haven't actually been to any IIM how can you make such an assertion? You have absolutely zero clue what goes on inside IIMs, the camaraderie, the bonding, the fun etc. As I said before, beer is available in the canteen at C. Take a wild guess about what happens when you put a bunch of 22-25 year old in a residential hostel with liquor freely available.
Btw if they were all "computer nerds" they wouldn't get jobs at MBB, front office ibanking, S&T, private equity, hedge funds, VC, top General Management jobs etc. If people of IIT/IIMs were all computer nerds, they wouldn't be leading Indian corporations and in many cases foreign ones (Pepsi, MasterCard etc).
Fu*k ,Out of 200 who wanted to get into ANY consulting firm ,100 got into MBB !!!That is ridiculous. Cannot believe it.It seems that the life would be heaven at M7s .Please say you are pulling out these numbers from your arse and these numbers and percentages are yours mere guess.
Also, Ivy League does not necessarily mean the best network. MIT Sloan and Chicago Booth have better networks than Cornell, Dartmouth, and Columbia. Internationally, I would also think that Oxford and Cambridge beat the lower ivies, too.
Not at the MBA level.
It's just that Oxbridge MBA have very small alumni networks - 1.5-2.5k, compared to 20-40k for most top US MBA programs and your network won't be as good as the one you'd get at Tuck. Their selectivity is at the level of schools in the lower part of the top 15-20, if not worse, so they don't have a strong signaling effect. MBA recruiters know that. Now, if your goal is to impress you aunt's friends or some random HR who knows nothing about MBA programs, so be it. I'm not sure that in that case it would be worth it to pay so much money.
MIT is not an Ivy either. MIT and Stanford are both private engineering schools; Chicago and Northwestern also compare well, both as MBA and undergrad programs, against the lower and mid tier ivies.
Ivy League schools (Ivies with MBA programs listed with their businessweek rank)
The Eight Northeastern Ivy League Schools: Harvard (#2) Yale (#21) Princeton (No MBA program)
Dartmouth (#14) Columbia (#9)
Brown (No MBA program) UPenn/Wharton (#3) Cornell (#13)
The Top Tier Private Non-Ivies:
Engineering Schools MIT (#10) Stanford (#5)
Other top-tier private schools Chicago (#1) Northwestern (#4) Duke (#6)
Top Tier Public State Schools:
UC Berkeley (#8) Michigan (#7) UVA (#11)
Just wanted to sort out any misconceptions. For more information on the US News rankings, see here:
http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/rankings/
Please note that Businessweek is not the absolute authority on b-school rankings, but it is probably one of the better authorities.
The informal WSO general ranking, largely formed by college undergrads, which a lot of us experienced guys don't necessarily agree with, is:
1) HBS 2) Stanford 3) Wharton 4.) MIT Sloan 5.) Chicago Booth 6.) Northwestern Kellogg 7.) Columbia 8.) Dartmouth/Tuck 9.) Duke
10.) Yale
82.) Berkeley
143.) UVA
207.) Michigan
1473.) Illinois
IMHO, selectivity means very little once you get to the top twenty schools. In Europe, due to the difficulty of the programs a lot of it is self-selection. Idiots can't survive long enough to graduate from Oxford, the idiots know that, so they cross their fingers and apply to the top US schools (and generally also get rejected.)
I've NEVER gotten a job from a school's network. I submit my resume, they see what I've done, they interview me, they give me the job. It's pretty darned simple; I don't know why folks talk about school networks so much.
I've never used a school's network, but I hear from a bunch of kids from my school who ask me for stuff. I don't think you should discount networking, it absolutely works even for us tech folk.
I think one year MBA is kind of sweet....gives you a break ..May be MBA for ISB is a better idea for me ..to get in core Energy consulting.............How you rank one year MBA course.....can any one throw some light on it
OP - Good questions, and ones that I'm really interested in getting answers to as well. What is your profile?
I recently got an offer from IIMA. It was the only school I applied to. I was an overseas candidate.
Till recently it was a back up option in case things didn't work out professionally. Now that I have got in, I have been made aware of the gravitas of what has happened. I am told that I am retarded to even consider anything else. All my other options are work-related. IIM A is the only non-work option I considered. The other options that I have are for FO finance gigs in local banks/boutiques (big names in the Indian context but not internationally). And an FO vanilla buyside (i.e. non PE/VC/HF) gig Stateside, one that I think will give me some serious exposure to portfolio management, not to mention relationships with more exotic buyside players for a future career move, but not the BIG $$$. Can't say any more. The latter is what I'd been planning on all along - work there for a few years, and go for a (hopefully top-tier) US MBA.
I have no particular fascination for the Indian or emerging markets growth story, nor many family ties in India. Nothing informs my decision other than career-related factors - I'm trying to set myself up for a successful career in my chosen field, alternative investments.
I do, however, have an Indian passport.
So that's where I am coming from. With all this in mind, I feel I am pretty unbiased about my assessments, which I generally tend to be anyway...I think, haha. Unfortunately, I don't have many assessments to begin with. I mostly just have questions and am trying to figure out what to do with my offer.
That notwithstanding, I'll throw some half-formed thoughts at you anyway:
It is not easy to get into IIM ABC even as an overseas candidate like myself. At IIM A, the average GMAT score is 760 or 770; I forget exactly which it is, but it was one of these two scores on FT. I scored higher. And even that guarantees nothing. The personal interview is not easy, you need a solid story and you really, really need to know whatever you have studied previously - there are no excuses allowed on this front. If it's on your resume or transcripts, you should know it. Nor is the 10 minute essay easy. You can get any topic under the sun and - as someone with little familiarity with India - be left clueless as to how to respond if it's an India-specific topic. And there is quite a lot of pressure - the interviews themselves are designed to test how you deal with stress...that was my impression anyway. Standardized tests are not particularly hard for me, I handle pressure reasonably well, I brushed up on my previous education, and I got lucky.
I do not equate IIMA with any other business school in India, which is also why I didn't apply elsewhere. This is obviously just an opinion. But I wasn't born with it, I developed it through rational observations and interactions with informed people. (a) If you went to IIM B/C, people will think (and mostly be right) that you did not get IIMA. Of course, before they think that, they'll think you are a genius anyway. You will be the best of the rest, which is not exactly a shitty accomplishment. (b) If you went to ISB, well, that's a post-experience program and I'd take any top ten, even top 15 US business school - and several others in Europe - over ISB anyday. The only exception is if you're adamant about working in India, in which case you need to do more research if it's a non-M7 school vs ISB.
I ALSO do not equate IIMA with any top tier US or European school. There is no doubt that a top tier US MBA is preferable to anything else, except maybe INSEAD and LBS. But the 2 year IIMA MBA is essentially a pre-experience program. Or for someone with very little experience. It is equated with Master's in Management programs in some rankings. If you have (i) a fair amount of experience, (ii) the profile to make it to a top 10 (or whatever) US MBA, and (iii) the right kind of pre-MBA experience to be eligible for whatever field you're aiming for post-MBA, go for the US MBA. Period. I do not agree with the assessment that only H/S/W are "global" brands. Is Columbia not a global brand? Or Sloan? Or Kellogg, Booth, Tuck? Even Stern or Duke? Be careful about the advice you get here. If you have an international MBA, none but a handful of schools lend you AUTOMATIC credibility in India. But there are many things that you can accomplish and add to your resume from a top 10/15 B-school - and the subsequent work experiences that these schools afford - that WILL give you credibility anywhere in the world.
Incidentally, IIMA has an executive MBA which is equated with traditional US MBAs and ranks quite well. But again, the IIM brand is essentially Indian.
Finally, on this point, and going back to my first point, I do not think IIMA is the hardest business school to get into, despite numerous claims to the contrary. The ratio of 700 apps to 1 admit is true, but for any meaningful comparisons to top tier international B-Schools a misnomer. It is the quality of a vast majority of the 700 that needs to be evaluated. I am not one to jump on the bandwagon just because I got an admission letter. I recognize the order of things. I don't think I can get into H/S/W anytime soon. And let's say I hit a lottery and got into Wharton...I would still not graduate with the kind of job I want, because I do not have the requisite (pre-MBA) experience today. But this should not diminish how hard it is to get into IIMA for someone with little or no work experience.
I personally know only two people from IIMA from recent years. Both work at KKR/TPG/Carlyle. In India. A tiny sample, admittedly. I don't know what kind of money they make, and am not going to ask. It will not be comparable to a KKR/TPG/Carlyle Associate in the US/London/HK. No question. But it will be a very good deal nonetheless, perhaps equivalent on PPP terms. I know a few IIMAs from a previous generation, when I imagine the private sector in India was piss poor. Some are chaired professors and heads of departments at top B-schools in the US, others are country heads of various banks, portfolio managers, MDs, and office heads at MBB. Most in S.Asia/E. and SE Asia/Middle East. Some are of more modest means, entrepreneurial types, running their own small businesses and non-profits. Others are C-suite of big corporations, and a couple are CEOs of big names. Beyond those I know, however, I do see lots of IIMA people on LinkedIn whose career progression does not encourage me given my own ideas on how I'd like to see my career pan out. MO/BO finance people, IT people, industry people in middle management, etc. Such is life, though. There is no free lunch. I will say this though: when it comes to Indian job opportunities, IIMA comes as close as any B-School to guaranteeing you a decent career. I cannot stress this enough. Oracle engineer to Blackstone or whatever is damn near impossible elsewhere.
You shouldn't pay too much attention to money when it comes to an MBA. If you were choosing between an MBA from UNC and an MBA from IIM Ahmedabad, maybe then it'd make sense to play along with all this ROI, IRR nonsense. Say it's a choice between Booth/Sloan/Columbia/Kellogg/Tuck/even Stern/Fuqua, etc. VS IIM A....if you have the right pre-MBA experience to reasonably expect a good exit from Booth (etc.), and are not totally fixated on India, take the big loan and go to Chicago (again, etc.). If you want to be in India, and are not too far into professional life, give IIM some consideration.
Lifestyle, or I should say quality of life: I have lived the second half of my life in Europe and America. My experience of India, as it exists today, is obviously going to be very different from that of someone who has primarily lived here all his life, having gone abroad only for a Bachelor's or a Master's or a two-year stint in Silicon Valley. I am not able to find many people to relate to here - the few are a small minority of the Indians I met during undergrad - and I am basically resigned to the fact that a lot of my entertainment will have to come from a few interesting people, exotic vacations, cheap liquor, obscure music, and The Ricky Gervais Show, Boondocks, Deadwood etc. on Megavideo. I CHOOSE to designate career prospects and progression foremost in my decision-making, and with that in mind all else is secondary. If you have lived almost all of your life in India, I don't think these should be a concern for you. IIMA will have some of the smartest people in India. These people are worth getting to know. The education will be rigorous, workload immense - they'll ride your ass to the ground. You'll come out with the best network possible in the Indian context, a great work ethic, and solid, tangible skills. Admittedly, this is all second-hand information for now.
Btw, you can do an exchange program with schools like Booth and Columbia. I suppose that says something about IIMA.
Try not to give too much attention to compensation figures disseminated on this thread. And I mean both ways - too high and too low. On a more tangible note, I think upwards of 35 people will make it to MBB from IIMA. That is an OK percentage.
If you are a pre-experience candidate, and are Indian through and through (meaning you are Indian, and want to work and live in India), IIMA is close to unbeatable.
Take everything Illini says with a grain of salt. He gets carried away. It's a defect of an otherwise helpful contributor to WSO. The real retards are not even worth naming, you should know without me spelling it out.
Anyway, these are just one person's opinions. As always, don't take anything anyone else says (including me) too seriously. I think some people on this thread weren't admitted to IIMA/etc., and are a bit bitter. Others are just full of random vitriol against India. I'd say I'm even less traditionally Indian than most of the America-born Indians I know. But I don't get carried away with things that don't affect my life, and I keep my prejudices to myself. Like I said, I care about my career prospects and want to make the choice that will enable me to achieve whatever professional goals I have in the medium term. I am in a somewhat similar boat to you, OP, and am interested in rational, informed opinions. Be careful about who you listen to.
Now for the questions...well, I'll just ask a couple. OP - I am sorry that at this point I have to hijack the thread, but I think my questions will be somewhat relevant to you as well.
(1) Apart from B-School, what are the exits from a FO (but proper portfolio management) gig in a VANILLA buyside shop, at the analyst/associate level?
(2) Can I reasonably aspire to schools like Wharton/Sloan/Booth/Columbia - strong finance schools - after three or four years of progress at said buyside shop? I have a really good GMAT score, a somewhat mediocre ugrad GPA from a semi-target in a math-related field, and a good grad GPA in another math-related field from another semi-target. Assume ECs are decent and will get a whole lot better (I have plans haha).
(3) What would you do if you were me? Go for IIMA? Or work in vanilla buyside for 3-4 years and aspire for a top tier US MBA?
(4) What kind of job can I reasonably apire to after a top-tier US MBA if I go down the work route? Remember, before the MBA, in this vanilla buyside gig, I'll be working in the CIO track as opposed to the Portfolio Manager track. And, as of today, the PM track's what interests me in the long run.
Done. Thanks for reading and have a good day.
My profile - Well I am an IIT Graduate working as an associate at a US Consulting firm in their Indian office.I have 2 years of experience.If I go to A/B/C it would be through CAT route and not GMAT unlike all other guys on this forum.I have been in India all my life lolz sans 3 months in Italy when I did my summer internship.So I know India/Indian cities/people.Question of adjusting doesn't come into picture.I donot have $150k dollars to fund my US MBA.I do have enough money to fund my Indian MBA.I have excellent academics and good communications skill.
ISB :) sounds good for u
I'm going to assume I'm one of the "retards".
I come from a similar background as you, I hold/held an Indian Passport, but I lived almost all my life outside India. I only moved to India for my undergraduate education (IIT/BITS). I took the CAT, did well enough to get admitted into 3 IIMS and was wait listed at one of A/B/C. It's easier to get into IIMA as a foreign student than it is to actually through the CAT route. I think I have a similar score as yours in the GMAT and made it into ISB, a school which I honestly think is shit.
I decided to enroll in a Masters program, at one of the schools mentioned in this thread, and I think I made the right decision, since I'm doing all right in the industry.
It took me about a year to fully integrate and come to terms with the change in environment in India, and remember this was when I was younger and found it easier to make friends. My closest friends were a few people who came from a similar background.
I doubt I would have enjoyed a similar experience now, when I'm older. This is something you have to consider, remember Gujrat is a dry state, so it's harder and/or more expensive to find alcohol. I hear IIMA students manage to find lots of booze, but you should expect the drinking experience with your buddies to be a little different.
As a student fresh out of school, I think IIM A/B/C provides the best ops, but I'm not so convinced it would be the right place for an experienced applicant.
If you can afford it, experience + top tier is the road I recommend people go down. You will be better positioned to compete in the "global economy" (lol!) .
I honestly think from the little you've said about yourself that you have a good shot at Sloan/Booth/Columbia, H/S/W I really can't comment about.
Oh yeah, my brother gave up IIMA and Oxford to go to Sloan/Booth/Columbia. This was back when the tuition at the IIMs was peanuts.
No offence sir, but I think every body is free to express their opinions. If you think people are menial because you got a GMAT score of 770..you are wrong. And, people who talk about thisprobably hang out with people from MIT Mfin or oxford. They know where they stand in present world..
According to my view, you still have to learn a lot. But, Again thats my view....they can be wrong...
And, since I am not genius like you or from any top B school...I automatically get disqualify to answer your questions sigh...cruel mean world
I did not get a gmat score of 770 - please see my post.
I am not sure how I caused offence. I did not say anyone was menial, nor do I know what a person being "menial" means. energyanalyst, I don't mean any offence, but I don't understand parts of your last post...purely on a language barrier basis. I'm also not sure what I did to offend you. Amen to me still having to learn a lot though.
I wrote a long post with my honest, more or less reasonable, balanced opinions. I'd imagined they'd be of some use to someone. And I asked questions for my own benefit.
It may be the 'PS', which I'll take out.
PS is out now you are good to go :)...And go to Some top tier MBA at US, if money is not a issue...
@captain
No I don't think you were, but I can't be bothered going through the whole thread to confirm this haha.
Thanks for a good reply though. I agree with pretty much everything you're saying.
Agreed on ISB, and as I'd mentioned, I would not look at it twice.
And your brother's decision neatly fits into what I was saying myself.
Would you be ready to do another MBA after you graduate from IIMA and if you had a further 2 years of experience under your belt?
If you honestly believe that you are a competitive candidate for an M7 program, and you enroll at an IIM, there's always going to be that feeling of 'what if I had waited to apply to an American B-school?'
Someone has rightly pointed out in this thread, that coming out of an IIM you will most likely be working in India. You have to consider if this is something you intend to do long term.
Living in India and Indian corporate culture, even at a BB is a little odd, and possibly frustrating.
Remember after a point happiness and comfort is important, you need to have a beer with someone who you can relate to after a long day of learning to DCF cash flows and relearning Porter's five forces for the 1231231th time.
@ energy
Glad to see that settled. And thanks for the advice.
My PS was mostly to say that arrogance and vitriol contributes nothing to a reasonable, rational discussion. We are all trying to get answers here. I don't think I was in any way arrogant in my post and I sincerely find nothing in my profile or achievements to be arrogant about. I think I was quite balanced in whatever I was saying, and I stuck to relevant things. Apart from that one line in the postscript.
In any case, it was directed to posts like dreamtheater's haha. Though even his post had some good points.
Anyway, no hard feelings. Take it easy, and any further advice would be appreciated.
@ captain
Agreed 100%. Preaching to the choir.
You know how it is though...people around you need to be made happy as well. And people around me have a much higher degree of risk aversion than me.
With excellent grades from an IIT degree and a consulting gig, I would think you could aim for IIMA/B/C. At the earliest, you'll be going next year, which will mean you have 3 years of experience. So yu could go for ISB as well, which I think should be very much doable for you. I don't know what the average work experience is over there.
With this I think we come to the final conclusion.The conclusion being that it would be better for me to get into A/B/C/ISB this year.Thank you all for your inputs.It was my pleasure discussing this hot burning topic with you guys.I would focus on the studies now.
Cheers
Best of luck bro!
There was a post above on how 15 lacs in bbay is good money post-MBA. I'd argue that is completely untrue. Maybe if you're married and the couple together is earning 30 lacs it make sense, but on your own 15 lacs will (as you pointed out) lead to little savings in bbay as tax/rent/booze will take up a huge %.
I reckon 24 lacs+ (so 2 lacs a month) base is what should be your relative aim once you join work post-MBA. I know that the top tier consulting firm are paying that much. Am I wrong in thinking this? How much do the top finance/investment banking firms pay in bbay? My knowledge is limited to only consulting.
I bring this up in this thread coz what's the point of graduating from IIM A if for the first 4-5 years after it, you're saving like 4-6 lacs a year...that's barely anything, let's be honest.
PS - Not to deride IIMs, my dad's an IIMA guy and objectively, he's done well for himself.
Ya dude..I did not mean to say that 15 lacs is good money in Mumbai..I rather meant that it is good when compared to what an IIMA grad is getting after MBA..As I already mentioned earlier, one the person that I know very closely just graduated from IIMA and he was in top 10% of his class. He will be joining a big4 in Mumbai for 17 lacs.. The 24 lacs package which you are referring to at top consulting firms are definitely there..but such opportunities are very few even at IIMA.
Just to give you a feel of what kind of salaries are offered in India, please take a look at the link below. The salary offered is 45 lacs for a role that requires like 10-12 years in IB/PE..and they are looking for top MBAs from India
http://iimjobs.com/content/view/40711/26
Also one of my colleagues husband is an Associate Director in Investment Banking at one of the top banks in Asia (Nomura/StanC). And he gets around 35 lacs..excluding bonus though..
Are you sure these salaries aren't monthly, rather than yearly? I know that people generally follow monthly there.
If it's yearly, wow, I did not expect it to be that low. :/
For all we know it could be a shitty $100m fund. Compensation depends on fund size.
How senior is this position? UBS also has an "Associate Director" position which is basically a fancy name for an Associate position. It could be the same case here.
Old thread -- //www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/investment-banking-in-india
The thread is 5 years old.
Compensation, on average, was higher in 2007.
I wish I had taken cricket more seriously man. Even if I were an IPL specialist, I'd be making at least double what MBA grads make in India (say USD60-70k). Of course there's the other side of not even making it to an IPL team and trundling around in the Delhi Ranji team, if even that.
Nothing's easy in this world!
Great thread, this.
^ "If" is a very dangerous word.Can cause World wars too.And assumption is the mother of all the fuck-ups.:-P
.
Well I did my PGDM from IIM-B and Finance PhD from Top 10 USA B-school. If you don't get the NYC / London / Singapore / HK / Zurich placement from IIM A/B/C you can always come to Top USA B school and do Finance PhD. It is not such a bad gig. They pay you $30 K a year while you are doing your PhD. Then after 5-6 years you get starting salary in Academia of $250K or if you come to Wall Street, you can easily go over $500 K in a few years in a decent hedge fund. It is also zero risk strategy because you don't have $200 K MBA loans. Just something to think about. Finance PhD is not as bad a decision as some people make it out to be.
TraderJoe:
Would it be Ok for me to PM you at some point?
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/phd-or-job
Mitt Romney is on WSO!
You are taking it out of context, okay. PhD may have low ROI for a USA Citizen who can easily get a high-paying Wall Street Job with Top 10 MBA. But for an Indian citizen with IIT/IIM background, PhD can move them from Dalal Street to Wall Street at zero risk and zero cost. So ROI totally depends on where you were born, and what options you have, and what opportunities you have in life.
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