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3/7/12

Are you ok with paying higher premiums so that Sandra Fluke can have sex?

Comments (216)

3/7/12

Cheaper than paying for a fuckin' baby.

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3/7/12

Rush was wrong and way off base to say those things about sandra fluke. But I am once again dismayed at the liberals' propensity to portray people as victims and cast them as heroic figures. They have used rush's comments to avoid discussing a legitimate issue on government subsidies of contraceptives and have resorted to blanket assertions about conservatives' "hatred" of women.

3/7/12

FOX news is a fucking freak show ! I get amused each time i watch this channel. It looks like a "serious" version of the daily show; taking information out of context and ridiculizing the potential dept of a debate. Im pro markets and all, but these guys should stop sipping on the Milton Friedman coolaid. His point of view has its limitations.

In reply to 16rl
3/7/12
16rl:

these guys should stop sipping on the Milton Friedman coolaid.

*kool-aid.

Respek the drank, booyakasha.

In reply to swagon
3/7/12
swagon:
16rl:

these guys should stop sipping on the Milton Friedman coolaid.

*kool-aid.

Respek the drank, booyakasha.

Respek. Can't even find that word in the dictionary anymore.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

3/7/12

'' Our country was built with our hands at work not with our hands out '' 9:55

'nuff said.

3/7/12

I just spent 10 days in America.

Not only should contraception be covered, it should be fucking mandatory.

In reply to Edmundo Braverman
3/7/12
Edmundo Braverman:

I just spent 10 days in America.

Not only should contraception be covered, it should be fucking mandatory.

whaaa?!?!? thought u were libertarian bro!! y u goin all french commie on us?!?!?

In reply to swagon
3/7/12
swagon:
Edmundo Braverman:

I just spent 10 days in America.

Not only should contraception be covered, it should be fucking mandatory.

whaaa?!?!? thought u were libertarian bro!! y u goin all french commie on us?!?!?

I'm shocked too. Braverman is now Monsieur Brave the communist frenchmen.

In reply to swagon
3/7/12
swagon:
Edmundo Braverman:

I just spent 10 days in America.

Not only should contraception be covered, it should be fucking mandatory.

whaaa?!?!? thought u were libertarian bro!! y u goin all french commie on us?!?!?

I think that was more of a comment on the general intelligence of our populace than it was an actual political stance.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

In reply to Edmundo Braverman
3/7/12
Edmundo Braverman:

I just spent 10 days in America.

Not only should contraception be covered, it should be fucking mandatory.

My drinkin' problem left today, she packed up all her bags and walked away.

In reply to happypantsmcgee
3/7/12
happypantsmcgee:
swagon:
Edmundo Braverman:

I just spent 10 days in America.

Not only should contraception be covered, it should be fucking mandatory.

whaaa?!?!? thought u were libertarian bro!! y u goin all french commie on us?!?!?

I think that was more of a comment on the general intelligence of our populace than it was an actual political stance.

Bingo. Give that man a cigar.

3/7/12

Premiums would go down over time because BC will prevent unwanted pregnancies and other such shit (which also, in theory, helps out the tax payer.)

Side note: who DOESN'T want this covered? What guy cheers for condoms? Holy shit, this is a dream come true for any man in a relationship.

3/7/12

What about men not in relationships?

The left always tries to get their shit covered with the threat of higher premiums if you don't cover it. How about all of us healthy people just opt into a high deductible plan and utilize a HSA. That will gut normal insurance and just drive up the cost for those who use it all the time.

Bang. Why allow yourself to subsidize poor decision making. If this government and country is going to force feed shared responsibility for bad decisions it is all of our duties to remove ourselves from the equation as much as possible.

Lower your tax exposure. Get yourself out of plans that subsidize frequent users. Stop donating to charity.

King - You are a ravenous single man. How is BC going to help you? How is it going to help me? Also, are you willing to trust a woman with making sure YOU don't become a dad?

Seriously, I know two people who were in relationships with the woman on the pill and she "accidentally" forgot to take it or did it wrong. Guess who has a kid now?

Don't blame anyone but yourself when you give away the control over your own body.

3/7/12

ANT -

Condoms are effective backup when someone misses a day with the pill. I don't want to subsidize bad decision making either, but I think making access to extremely effective contraception that everyone likes and is easy to use FREE will have benefits in the long-run.

That said, I don't even want to debate it anymore. There will never be consensus here. Well, we can all agree on one thing: condoms are awful!

In reply to Edmundo Braverman
3/7/12
Edmundo Braverman:
happypantsmcgee:
swagon:
Edmundo Braverman:

I just spent 10 days in America.

Not only should contraception be covered, it should be fucking mandatory.

whaaa?!?!? thought u were libertarian bro!! y u goin all french commie on us?!?!?

I think that was more of a comment on the general intelligence of our populace than it was an actual political stance.

Bingo. Give that man a cigar.

Not comfortable with the phalic nature of my reward

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

In reply to TheKing
3/7/12
TheKing:

ANT -

Condoms are effective backup when someone misses a day with the pill. I don't want to subsidize bad decision making either, but I think making access to extremely effective contraception that everyone likes and is easy to use FREE will have benefits in the long-run.

That said, I don't even want to debate it anymore. There will never be consensus here. Well, we can all agree on one thing: condoms are awful!

And I completely agree with you. Just saying condoms do the job of birth control, with the anti STD benefit and are cheaper. At the very least, if insurance is going to cover BC they should cover condoms.

What needs to happen is you need to have hardcore sexed in inner city schools with BC being made available and maybe even paying people to be on it. Now THAT would have tangible benefits.

3/7/12

Socialism is rampant in here.

In reply to TNA
3/7/12
ANT:

Stop donating to charity.

How will this help anything? I'd be happy if some pro-BC *private* group or charity stepped up for free pills rather than having the Gvt mandate it.

In reply to Abdel
3/7/12
Abdel:

Socialism is rampant in here.

I'm certainly no socialist. I'm just not a big fan of the human race.

3/7/12

i'm all in favor of shittier forms of contraception so we can have more abortions.

In reply to TNA
3/7/12
ANT:
TheKing:

ANT -

Condoms are effective backup when someone misses a day with the pill. I don't want to subsidize bad decision making either, but I think making access to extremely effective contraception that everyone likes and is easy to use FREE will have benefits in the long-run.

That said, I don't even want to debate it anymore. There will never be consensus here. Well, we can all agree on one thing: condoms are awful!

And I completely agree with you. Just saying condoms do the job of birth control, with the anti STD benefit and are cheaper. At the very least, if insurance is going to cover BC they should cover condoms.

What needs to happen is you need to have hardcore sexed in inner city schools with BC being made available and maybe even paying people to be on it. Now THAT would have tangible benefits.

But condoms suck. I like to freebase it.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

3/7/12

Condoms do suck...until you get the itchy ballz

In reply to Jimage
3/7/12
Jimage:
ANT:

Stop donating to charity.

How will this help anything? I'd be happy if some pro-BC *private* group or charity stepped up for free pills rather than having the Gvt mandate it.

I believe Planned Parenthood already does this.

When will people learn that you can't force people to be responsible. Okay, so dumb poor people get knocked up when they shouldn't have kids. Why? Oh, they can't afford birth control. Okay, let's make it free so they can afford it. They still get knocked up. Why? Well they can get it for free, but can't get down to the drug store to get the pills. Okay, let's mail it to their house. They still get knocked up. Why? Oh, because I forgot to take it one day or something. Well, what do we do then?

You can't force people to take the pills...as much as it seems like doing so would solve many of society's problems. You are essentially killing the liberty of the many to protect the few...and those few are probably too dumb to use the stuff you gained by revoking the liberty of the many.

It's insane that people can't see the fundamental issue here that providing more for people who want more will not satisfy them even when they get it. Instead they will only continue to expect and demand more.

Instead of corrupting a nation that was founded on opposing principals, why don't you socialist/liberals educate those poor people and fund their relocation to countries where they can be provided for?

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

In reply to cphbravo96
3/7/12
cphbravo96:

I believe Planned Parenthood already does this.

Not a pure charity. They get a good deal of government funding, no?

I agree pretty much with everything you said, CPH

3/7/12

i'm going to summarize this whole flap here:

the puritan's objection to bear baiting is not so much that it brings pain to the bear, but that it brings pleasure to the spectator.

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3/7/12

How about I summarize.

All insurance companies want to provide free BC because it saves them money. But, at the end of the day, health benefits are provided by an organization as an enticement to work there. They are not required, nor do they have to be quality plans. A private organization has decided that they want to have a less than top notch plan.

What about high deductible plans or places that do not provide health insurance to employees? Women can't get free birth control there?

Government should have simply left religious groups alone. This is what HSA's and Flexible spending accounts are for.

3/7/12

i like mine more because i have bears.

In reply to melvvvar
3/7/12
melvvvar:

i like mine more because i have bears.

I laughed...also reminded me of blastoise

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

In reply to cphbravo96
3/7/12
cphbravo96:
Jimage:
ANT:

Stop donating to charity.

How will this help anything? I'd be happy if some pro-BC *private* group or charity stepped up for free pills rather than having the Gvt mandate it.

I believe Planned Parenthood already does this.

When will people learn that you can't force people to be responsible. Okay, so dumb poor people get knocked up when they shouldn't have kids. Why? Oh, they can't afford birth control. Okay, let's make it free so they can afford it. They still get knocked up. Why? Well they can get it for free, but can't get down to the drug store to get the pills. Okay, let's mail it to their house. They still get knocked up. Why? Oh, because I forgot to take it one day or something. Well, what do we do then?

You're right, you absolutely cannot force people to be responsible. You can, however, give people an easy opportunity to be responsible. They have little excuse if birth control is easily available and subsidized, despite your heavy exaggerations to the contrary. We can argue all day that poor people will never use the subsidized birth control and that it's a waste of time and money, but we both know that a reasonable number of people would take advantage of it.

cphbravo96:

You can't force people to take the pills...as much as it seems like doing so would solve many of society's problems. You are essentially killing the liberty of the many to protect the few...and those few are probably too dumb to use the stuff you gained by revoking the liberty of the many.

You actually can force people to take the pills, but that's called totalitarianism and even liberals don't desire that. I really enjoy your exaggerations - who exactly are the "many" from whom liberty is being stripped? Insurance companies? Churches who think "freedom of religion" means "imposition of views on the 'many'"? Because the majority of America would agree that easily accessible birth control is not a step in the wrong direction as far as personal liberty is concerned.

Why should the poor, which is growing at a faster rate every day, keep procreating if there is a potential solution to the problem? At the very least a solution that would leave them with little excuse for their excessive babymaking? By the conservative logic, it's almost IRRESPONSIBLE for us to continue on this vicious path that allows the poor to pin blame on lack of accessible birth control if there's an easy solution to the problem. Let's make them fucking responsible for their actions already.

cphbravo96:

It's insane that people can't see the fundamental issue here that providing more for people who want more will not satisfy them even when they get it. Instead they will only continue to expect and demand more.

Instead of corrupting a nation that was founded on opposing principals, why don't you socialist/liberals educate those poor people and fund their relocation to countries where they can be provided for?

Regards

I get where you're coming from - welfare, medicaid, social security, etc. We're on the same page as far as entitlement is concerned, because I hate very much that my tax dollars are wasted on programs that will never benefit me and are so corrupt and bloated that it's sickening.

This situation, however, is not an entitlement. The poor, for all intents and purposes, aren't dying for cheap birth control. They've got welfare and condoms if they desired to protect themselves once in a while. This is a mandate that PRIVATE insurance companies provide subsidized birth control in all employers' most basic plans, which will leave very few excuses as to why people are having kids when they shouldn't be. And that is what we call a benefit to society.

3/7/12

Wait, so people who choose not to take birth control, that we all pay for, then have kids and expect us to all pay for it?

And we can't force them?

Get real. If you refuse to accept the consequences of your actions you are no longer a free American, but a ward of the state. As a child or person unable to take care of yourself, you no longer have free will and will accept the governance or "parenting" of those who are responsible for your actions.

You have liberty or you have slavery, but you cannot have a world where others shoulder your burden while you enjoy the freedom that they provide.

In reply to Jimage
3/7/12
Jimage:
cphbravo96:

I believe Planned Parenthood already does this.

Not a pure charity. They get a good deal of government funding, no?

I agree pretty much with everything you said, CPH

You are right, they aren't...and I don't think they should necessarily receive government funding anyways. I guess the problem I have is too many people in the country stop trying to figure out how they achieve an objective and have been devoting time to how they can achieve the objective for free.

I don't know anyone in school that wasn't able to afford BC if they needed/wanted it. Was it because I know how much everyone made? No, it's because I saw them spend $300 on new bathing suits every year before going on their spring trip or the nights out drinking, etc.

Again, it's about priorities and we, as a nation, are telling young people to feel free to be responsible because we will save your ass every time. This breeds complacency and dependence...two things that counter to everything that made this nation a great power.

Jimage, none of that was directed at you...just a general statement.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

3/7/12

elephonky,

Who the fuck cares about excuses? "Ohhh, they don't have an excuse to get pregnant anymore because the dick police showed up and strapped a condom on him!!" How far do you take it? If someone actually put a condom on some guy's dick but he took it off after the cop left would you be mad then?

'Excuse' is a misnomer because it doesn't actually excuse the behavior. And birth control is plenty available. I could go get morning after pills at the local drug store as well as condoms (both male and female) and birth control pills can be had for rather cheap as well. Or you can go to a government subsidized clinic and get it for free...but again, you would have to actually go...you know, be responsible.

Your argument runs along the lines of banning guns because murders use them to kill people. Did people not die before the 15th century? Of course they did, they were just stabbed with swords and before that hit with clubs. So should we get rid of guns and knives and bats because it becomes too easy for a few people to kill someone? No, because you are hampering the rights of many because of the poor actions of a few. Same premise as with this unconstitutionally mandated law.

You said yourself that it's the government mandating that a PRIVATE organization do something. In this case it's a religious institution and the Constitution couldn't be any clearer.

I know the left loves to drag out the separation of church and state issue when someone wants to put a "Christmas" tree up on the lawn at city hall...but where are they now to recite the rest of the oft forgotten pieces that coincidentally don't match up with their views?

How is it you guys can remember..."Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." but you always forget the "...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." part?

The First Amendment of the Constitution is abundantly clear that the federal government does NOT have the right to mandate that a religious organization does something against it's doctrine.

Luckily we are in America and you can go elsewhere if you don't like that. It's like you have a choice or something.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

3/7/12

Love how people continue to twist the facts. Religious organizations should not be forced to provide birth control if they do not want. If you think it is such a societal benefit you should pay for it out of your pockets. Stop projecting your beliefs that I do not hold and using the government to do your dirty work.

Only way I will support these bullshit social programs the left keeps pushing is if we have control. I give with strings attached. Drug tests, mandatory school attendance, etc. People who accept personal responsibility get freedom and liberty.

Also, we are not talking about health care plans in general. We are talking specifically about Catholic groups being forced to pay for a non required benefit.

If you want to live in a socialistic nanny state get a one way ticket across the ocean. Stop trying to destroy the founding document that the greatest nation in recent history was founded on.

In reply to cphbravo96
3/7/12
cphbravo96:

elephonky,

Who the fuck cares about excuses? "Ohhh, they don't have an excuse to get pregnant anymore because the dick police showed up and strapped a condom on him!!" How far do you take it? If someone actually put a condom on some guy's dick but he took it off after the cop left would you be mad then?

Look, you brought up the whole "well if we give them free birth control, they'll complain that they 'couldn't get to the store' and then we'll have to drive them there" bullshit. That would be an "excuse" for why they couldn't prevent the pregnancy, thus prompting my argument that mandating insurance-covered birth control would prevent much of these "excuses" from having merit.

cphbravo96:

'Excuse' is a misnomer because it doesn't actually excuse the behavior. And birth control is plenty available. I could go get morning after pills at the local drug store as well as condoms (both male and female) and birth control pills can be had for rather cheap as well. Or you can go to a government subsidized clinic and get it for free...but again, you would have to actually go...you know, be responsible.

This just makes it seem like you lack perspective. Not everyone can get to the drug store to buy morning after pills and furthermore not everyone has the money for them. Should they not be having sex in the first place? Sure. But that's a pipe dream; reality is that poor people will have sex, so let's prevent the pregnancies in the most cost-effective way. Ranting that they should have some fucking responsibility is all fun and dandy, so you can do that while the rest of us try to find realistic solutions. (or we could just say fuck it and let the shit continue to hit the fan).

cphbravo96:

Your argument runs along the lines of banning guns because murders use them to kill people. Did people not die before the 15th century? Of course they did, they were just stabbed with swords and before that hit with clubs. So should we get rid of guns and knives and bats because it becomes too easy for a few people to kill someone? No, because you are hampering the rights of many because of the poor actions of a few. Same premise as with this unconstitutionally mandated law.

Your analogy sucks, please don't even try to defend it. It reeks of partisan bias and intentional ignorance of facts. I'll try to apply it more appropriately: let's say we have a crime problem amongst the poor populations (basically reality). There are excessive murders each year, primarily in the lower classes. The government mandates that health insurance companies provide an option for subsidized guns for those that live in areas with crime above X% (in case you're not following - these people are the "women" of the birth control debate) for self defense. Guns are made more accessible at the cost of the private insurance companies, but crime is deterred because everyone knows that it's cheaper to have a gun, and thus more likely that trying to murder someone could more easily result in your own death. Overall result: murders amongst lower classes decrease over time.

And the conservatives/liberals/whoever the fuck is against it says:

But what if someone doesn't use their self-defense gun that all our TAX DOLLARS paid for (even though they didn't, but I'll ignore that since you all seem to be stuck on it)? What if their gun is faulty and they get murdered anyway?? What if some anti-NRA group is morally against hazardous weapons being subsidized?!?!? OMGZ WHAT A WASTE OF MONEY AND INFRINGEMENT OF PERSONAL LIBERTIES.

(Go ahead, rip it apart. But in the end it still aligns with the current situation a shit ton more than your analogy.)

cphbravo96:

You said yourself that it's the government mandating that a PRIVATE organization do something. In this case it's a religious institution and the Constitution couldn't be any clearer.

Have you read the first amendment? It could be a fucking infinite amount clearer. I can't even believe you just said that.

cphbravo96:

I know the left loves to drag out the separation of church and state issue when someone wants to put a "Christmas" tree up on the lawn at city hall...but where are they now to recite the rest of the oft forgotten pieces that coincidentally don't match up with their views?

How is it you guys can remember..."Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." but you always forget the "...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." part?

I know the right LOVES to flip shit when the president/anyone calls his Christmas tree a holiday tree, but where are they now to recite the rest of the oft forgotten pieces that coincidentally don't match up with their views?

Fuck, I'm not even a Democrat and I'm getting all hot and bothered by you. Come to the middle, brother, where the sun shines 24/7 and we're not all on crack cocaine.

cphbravo96:

The First Amendment of the Constitution is abundantly clear that the federal government does NOT have the right to mandate that a religious organization does something against it's doctrine.

Luckily we are in America and you can go elsewhere if you don't like that. It's like you have a choice or something.

Regards

Okay, my religion that was established millions of years ago (before anyone could write, so there's no big fancy book or anything) said that everyone must be personally and financially responsible for every action of every day. Thus, my churchgoers shouldn't have to pay for car insurance since it diminishes their perception of risk and the All Superior Supergod (we call him ASS) won't let them into the afterlife! I can't believe the government would make such a heinous law that protects so many people and can improve the country overall when it is in CLEAR defiance of my religion!

Just because you agree with the law doesn't mean it's abundantly clear. Was it fine back in the 19th Century when everyone accepted Christianity shacking up with the government? Absolutely. But nowadays we have a plethora of religious interests that we must avoid offending and/or defending, and the law unfortunately applies to those too. I'm sorry.

Luckily we are in America and you can go elsewhere if you don't like that. It's like you have a choice or something.

EDIT: For the record I am born Catholic and am now a moderate.

In reply to TNA
3/7/12
ANT:

Love how people continue to twist the facts. Religious organizations should not be forced to provide birth control if they do not want. If you think it is such a societal benefit you should pay for it out of your pockets. Stop projecting your beliefs that I do not hold and using the government to do your dirty work.

No one should be forced to do anything, ever. It's really working out for Somalia, I don't know why we waste our time with government.

ANT:

Only way I will support these bullshit social programs the left keeps pushing is if we have control. I give with strings attached. Drug tests, mandatory school attendance, etc. People who accept personal responsibility get freedom and liberty.

THIS. Welcome to the moderate side.

ANT:

Also, we are not talking about health care plans in general. We are talking specifically about Catholic groups being forced to pay for a non required benefit.

If you want to live in a socialistic nanny state get a one way ticket across the ocean. Stop trying to destroy the founding document that the greatest nation in recent history was founded on.

The Articles of Confederation have already been destroyed, so this is a nonissue. And I don't want to live in a socialist nanny state, but I'd like to find realistic solutions to the problems that we face in America today (and for some reason we didn't foresee).

By the way, I'm officially inviting everyone in this thread to my "Social Security just went belly up and none of us are getting our money back!" party. (hopefully it won't happen for at least another 10 years so I'm rich enough to go models and bottles on this shit)

3/7/12

Sorry man, no one is forced to work for a catholic organization or go to a catholic university. No need to force it on them. Health insurance is an option benefit and doesn't need to be provided.

Additionally, this myth that we need to do X or else Y completely ignores a third option, one that we should start doing. Let people own up to their own faults.

Turn a blind eye. Ignore them. Anyone walking around in a city knows how to tune out bums. How we can callously ignore the plight of someone right in front of us, but not be able to legislatively ignore the plight of people we never see if beyond me.

3/7/12
Abdel:

Are you ok with paying higher premiums so that Sandra Fluke can have sex?

Are you ok with paying higher premiums so that Rush can take Viagra?

Insurance should be for catastrophic events - no pills, no viagra.

In reply to midnightoil
3/7/12
midnightoil:
Abdel:

Are you ok with paying higher premiums so that Sandra Fluke can have sex?

Are you ok with paying higher premiums so that Rush can take Viagra?

Insurance should be for catastrophic events - no pills, no viagra.

O'reilly answers your question at 5:11

In reply to Abdel
3/7/12
Abdel:
midnightoil:
Abdel:

Are you ok with paying higher premiums so that Sandra Fluke can have sex?

Are you ok with paying higher premiums so that Rush can take Viagra?

Insurance should be for catastrophic events - no pills, no viagra.

O'reilly answers your question at 5:11

The moment you start calling Viagra a medical necessity, you get all these excuses about pills as well. ED doesn't kill and it should not be covered. And no, why do we, as a society, have to pay for my VP's adderall so that he only has to pay $10/refill? My point is simple - insurance covering everything creates abuse of the system in the society. In an ideal world, insurance should cover major illness/accidents while everyday events should come out of HSA type savings.

In reply to midnightoil
3/7/12
midnightoil:
Abdel:
midnightoil:
Abdel:

Are you ok with paying higher premiums so that Sandra Fluke can have sex?

Are you ok with paying higher premiums so that Rush can take Viagra?

Insurance should be for catastrophic events - no pills, no viagra.

O'reilly answers your question at 5:11

Did any one die of ED? If not, it should not be covered. And no, why do we, as a society, have to pay for my VP's adderall so that he only has to pay $10/refill? My point is simple - insurance covering everything creates abuse of the system in the society. In an ideal world, insurance should cover major illness/accidents while everyday events should come out of HSA type savings.

Well I agree with that. That's what insurance is supposed to be for (unlickly to happen catastrophic events)

In reply to TNA
3/7/12
ANT:

Sorry man, no one is forced to work for a catholic organization or go to a catholic university. No need to force it on them. Health insurance is an option benefit and doesn't need to be provided.

Additionally, this myth that we need to do X or else Y completely ignores a third option, one that we should start doing. Let people own up to their own faults.

Turn a blind eye. Ignore them. Anyone walking around in a city knows how to tune out bums. How we can callously ignore the plight of someone right in front of us, but not be able to legislatively ignore the plight of people we never see if beyond me.

Health insurance is essentially necessary in modern America because of skyrocketing healthcare costs due to inefficiencies and unnecessary price variations.

If you take out the inefficiencies the result is decreased need for health insurance, and then it truly DOES become a benefit. (interestingly, ObamaCare as it was originally intended prioritized this reduction of price variation in the healthcare field above the individual mandate provision but the lobbyist orgy that constantly takes place in D.C. wasn't having any of that). Not sure if you've heard of the Dartmouth Health Atlas, but it's essentially the key to solving medical care in this country - it's worth looking up if you have time.

We agree that people should own up to their own faults. You and I, personally, are fiscally and morally (well, most of the time...) responsible. We can talk ideals all day long about how fucking stupid the poor, [insert racial stereotype] classes are and resent the FUCK out of them. But it won't solve the problem. The market doesn't react well to dropping people on their asses like you suggest, and furthermore we'd lose respect in all of the industrialized world. Our problems (much to both of our chagrin) would continue to increase and this country would continue to spiral downward.

We'll never bring FDR or LBJ back to tell them that their policies for short term success would fuck the country over for decades to come, so let's not waste our breath trying.

You can't stop a morphine addiction by refusing it to an addict (I mean, sometimes you can, but it's definitely not good procedure). In the same way, you can't stop a welfare addiction by just cutting it. You have to teach the person/population that life outside morphine/welfare is actually possible, and then you have to help them see it for themselves. Without doing that, you just end up with a bunch of addicts who give birth to children that pop out already addicted, and the cycle repeats itself while the non-addicts are mysteriously not procreating enough to keep the addict-to-nonaddict ratio intact (boy, that sounds a lot like our current economic situation...).

3/7/12

And how do you deal with someone who doesn't want help?

In reply to elephonky
3/7/12
elephonky:
ANT:

Sorry man, no one is forced to work for a catholic organization or go to a catholic university. No need to force it on them. Health insurance is an option benefit and doesn't need to be provided.

Additionally, this myth that we need to do X or else Y completely ignores a third option, one that we should start doing. Let people own up to their own faults.

Turn a blind eye. Ignore them. Anyone walking around in a city knows how to tune out bums. How we can callously ignore the plight of someone right in front of us, but not be able to legislatively ignore the plight of people we never see if beyond me.

Health insurance is essentially necessary in modern America because of skyrocketing healthcare costs due to inefficiencies and unnecessary price variations.

If you take out the inefficiencies the result is decreased need for health insurance, and then it truly DOES become a benefit. (interestingly, ObamaCare as it was originally intended prioritized this reduction of price variation in the healthcare field above the individual mandate provision but the lobbyist orgy that constantly takes place in D.C. wasn't having any of that). Not sure if you've heard of the Dartmouth Health Atlas, but it's essentially the key to solving medical care in this country - it's worth looking up if you have time.

We agree that people should own up to their own faults. You and I, personally, are fiscally and morally (well, most of the time...) responsible. We can talk ideals all day long about how fucking stupid the poor, [insert racial stereotype] classes are and resent the FUCK out of them. But it won't solve the problem. The market doesn't react well to dropping people on their asses like you suggest, and furthermore we'd lose respect in all of the industrialized world. Our problems (much to both of our chagrin) would continue to increase and this country would continue to spiral downward.

We'll never bring FDR or LBJ back to tell them that their policies for short term success would fuck the country over for decades to come, so let's not waste our breath trying.

You can't stop a morphine addiction by refusing it to an addict (I mean, sometimes you can, but it's definitely not good procedure). In the same way, you can't stop a welfare addiction by just cutting it. You have to teach the person/population that life outside morphine/welfare is actually possible, and then you have to help them see it for themselves. Without doing that, you just end up with a bunch of addicts who give birth to children that pop out already addicted, and the cycle repeats itself while the non-addicts are mysteriously not procreating enough to keep the addict-to-nonaddict ratio intact (boy, that sounds a lot like our current economic situation...).

You and I are inches away friend. You want exactly what I want, but you prefer the carrot, while I prefer the stick. Unfortunately, people are never satisfied and the generous carrot you give today will become shit and resentment in the future. People always want more, regardless of if it was given or earned.

We have the stick, we just are too afraid to use it at this point. Eventually we will get over this squeamishness and truly solve the problem.

In reply to TNA
3/7/12
ANT:

You and I are inches away friend. You want exactly what I want, but you prefer the carrot, while I prefer the stick. Unfortunately, people are never satisfied and the generous carrot you give today will become shit and resentment in the future.

...said the vagina to the butthole.

3/8/12

anyone who says that ED isn't a life-threatening disease has disqualified himself from this debate.

3/8/12

ED isn't even a real thing.

ED Cure = Bang Hotter Chicks.

Problem solved.

3/8/12
ANT:

Condoms FTW

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."

In reply to Edmundo Braverman
3/8/12
Edmundo Braverman:
happypantsmcgee:
swagon:
Edmundo Braverman:

I just spent 10 days in America.

Not only should contraception be covered, it should be fucking mandatory.

whaaa?!?!? thought u were libertarian bro!! y u goin all french commie on us?!?!?

I think that was more of a comment on the general intelligence of our populace than it was an actual political stance.

Bingo. Give that man a cigar.

I'd like to just point out that, among other things, (1) braverman is a thinking person which means that (2) his stance on some things will change over time given new information. Things change. Trying to get this across in the hipsteriffic political atmosphere of "I've always said blah blah blah" in America is like trying to teach the finer points of structuralist economics to fucking plants.

People in this country often KNOW they're wrong and force the issue anyway, like eating some crow and saying "oops, sorry, I screwed up" will kill them. Sometimes, a thought is complicated and can't be summed up into a three syllable stump one liner (or maybe i'm not smart enough to?). Don't believe me?....ask a banker if they (1) believe in free markets and (2) agree with fixed 2% float takedown...and then marvel at the contradiction.

Get busy living

3/8/12

1. She picked a fight with the Church because that's just what some people do
2. She's actually right, and the issue is legit
3. In five years, no one will care who the hell she is
4. Catholic institutions need to totally decouple themselves from the state

Men get less of a say in reproduction because, well shit, they don't carry the kid around inside them for 9 months and the overwhelming majority of child rearing is done by women. Men also have a near monopoly on war and violence...or, the termination of reproduction. If prostitution is the world's oldest profession, being a mercenary is a close 2nd.

Is it right? Is it fair? LIFE IS UNFAIR. Deal with it. Jeez

Get busy living

In reply to UFOinsider
3/8/12
UFOinsider:

1. She picked a fight with the Church because that's just what some people do
2. She's actually right, and the issue is legit
3. In five years, no one will care who the hell she is
4. Catholic institutions need to totally decouple themselves from the state

Men get less of a say in reproduction because, well shit, they don't carry the kid around inside them for 9 months and the overwhelming majority of child rearing is done by women. Men also have a near monopoly on war and violence...or, the termination of reproduction. If prostitution is the world's oldest profession, being a mercenary is a close 2nd.

Is it right? Is it fair? LIFE IS UNFAIR. Deal with it. Jeez

This. If I had any credits I'd reward you for such an awesome post.

(By the way I accidentally flagged your post as spam cause I'm on my phone. My bad.)

3/8/12

Thoughts:
1. I don't give a fuck what Rush called her. Civility is gone and isn't coming back - ever.
2. At least 50% of our population shouldn't be breeding.
3. Providing contraception probably reduces illegitimate births and therefore I'm all for it.

In reply to UFOinsider
3/8/12
UFOinsider:

1. She picked a fight with the Church because that's just what some people do
2. She's actually right, and the issue is legit
3. In five years, no one will care who the hell she is
4. Catholic institutions need to totally decouple themselves from the state

Men get less of a say in reproduction because, well shit, they don't carry the kid around inside them for 9 months and the overwhelming majority of child rearing is done by women. Men also have a near monopoly on war and violence...or, the termination of reproduction. If prostitution is the world's oldest profession, being a mercenary is a close 2nd.

Is it right? Is it fair? LIFE IS UNFAIR. Deal with it. Jeez

No sense in debating you any further. You clearly think your personal beliefs should be forced on a religious institution. Health Insurance is option by the employer and reproductive drugs tend to run afoul of Catholic groups. They have the right and choice to decide what level of optional benefits that are provided to their employees or voluntary members.

These are private groups. If government funding is received, it is at the department level and non essential for the running of their business. Either way, the government should either give the funds without expectation of influence or let the religious groups know that their funds come with strings.

This woman knew their policy and freely chose to apply and then has an issue with their policy. This is disgusting.

Freedom means respecting different opinions. I realize many people on this board have a disdain for organized religion, but when you start forcing them to do things because YOU think it is smart, freedom is done with.

Keep thinking you know what is best for other people.

In reply to TNA
3/8/12
ANT:

No sense in debating you any further. You clearly think your personal beliefs should be forced on a religious institution.

I didn't know this was a debate, I'm merely discussing my view. I'm a Catholic who understands that when any of our organizations intertwine themselves with government, we become beholden to their standards. (1) I agree with the ruling because I think that official church doctrine is due for an overhaul and (2) would like to see this done from within the Church. So, in a way, I fault the Church for sacrificing some of its sovreignty to the government, but applaud the government's position.

ANT:

They have the right and choice to decide what level of optional benefits that are provided to their employees or voluntary members.

Again, this is why some institutions, like Harvard, refuse certain federal programs: so that they retain this right. Once they go on the grid as a public entity, they don't have the same rights. The rights as described by the overarching struture take precedence. If you want to argue against birth control, just do that. But the structural issue is pretty cut and dry.

ANT:

This woman knew their policy and freely chose to apply and then has an issue with their policy. This is disgusting.

You're so sure? The vast majority of people I know coming to Catholic charities have few viable other options...and more than a few non-Catholics show up as well. I have had many a fight with priests I know personally over these incredibly stupid and backward policies. With all due respect to them, they don't have to deal with these issues and don't know what they hell they're talking about, and should listen to what the members have to say. And with all due respect to Obama, he has stuck his bossy nose into the internal argument of a 2,000 year old organization that will long outlive him. On one hand, my reaction is "FUCK YOU, you're not one of us so know your damn role you pissant politician" and other the other hand "...but hank you for helping my side of the argument."

ANT:

Keep thinking you know what is best for other people.

I do believe I'm right, and speak not only for myself but for a substantial majority as well. No one is saying that members of Catholic charities HAVE TO get contraception, and I know plenty of pro-choice people who didn't get abortions, etc... But at this point, arguing against this issue is in the same camp as going back to the gold standard: aint gonna happen, that's a thing of the past.

Get busy living

In reply to TNA
3/8/12
ANT:
UFOinsider:

1. She picked a fight with the Church because that's just what some people do
2. She's actually right, and the issue is legit
3. In five years, no one will care who the hell she is
4. Catholic institutions need to totally decouple themselves from the state

Men get less of a say in reproduction because, well shit, they don't carry the kid around inside them for 9 months and the overwhelming majority of child rearing is done by women. Men also have a near monopoly on war and violence...or, the termination of reproduction. If prostitution is the world's oldest profession, being a mercenary is a close 2nd.

Is it right? Is it fair? LIFE IS UNFAIR. Deal with it. Jeez

No sense in debating you any further. You clearly think your personal beliefs should be forced on a religious institution. Health Insurance is option by the employer and reproductive drugs tend to run afoul of Catholic groups. They have the right and choice to decide what level of optional benefits that are provided to their employees or voluntary members.

These are private groups. If government funding is received, it is at the department level and non essential for the running of their business. Either way, the government should either give the funds without expectation of influence or let the religious groups know that their funds come with strings.

This woman knew their policy and freely chose to apply and then has an issue with their policy. This is disgusting.

Freedom means respecting different opinions. I realize many people on this board have a disdain for organized religion, but when you start forcing them to do things because YOU think it is smart, freedom is done with.

Keep thinking you know what is best for other people.

Obviously ANT is also pro-choice and pro-gay marriage.

3/8/12

We all have dicks, why do we give a shit?

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

In reply to heister
3/8/12
heister:

We all have dicks, why do we give a shit?

We have all have rights and don't want them violated.

In reply to wadtk
3/8/12
wadtk:
heister:

We all have dicks, why do we give a shit?

We have all have rights and don't want them violated.

You have a right to your life and your liberty and that's about it.

In reply to freeloader
3/8/12
freeloader:
ANT:
UFOinsider:

1. She picked a fight with the Church because that's just what some people do
2. She's actually right, and the issue is legit
3. In five years, no one will care who the hell she is
4. Catholic institutions need to totally decouple themselves from the state

Men get less of a say in reproduction because, well shit, they don't carry the kid around inside them for 9 months and the overwhelming majority of child rearing is done by women. Men also have a near monopoly on war and violence...or, the termination of reproduction. If prostitution is the world's oldest profession, being a mercenary is a close 2nd.

Is it right? Is it fair? LIFE IS UNFAIR. Deal with it. Jeez

No sense in debating you any further. You clearly think your personal beliefs should be forced on a religious institution. Health Insurance is option by the employer and reproductive drugs tend to run afoul of Catholic groups. They have the right and choice to decide what level of optional benefits that are provided to their employees or voluntary members.

These are private groups. If government funding is received, it is at the department level and non essential for the running of their business. Either way, the government should either give the funds without expectation of influence or let the religious groups know that their funds come with strings.

This woman knew their policy and freely chose to apply and then has an issue with their policy. This is disgusting.

Freedom means respecting different opinions. I realize many people on this board have a disdain for organized religion, but when you start forcing them to do things because YOU think it is smart, freedom is done with.

Keep thinking you know what is best for other people.

Obviously ANT is also pro-choice and pro-gay marriage.

I am pro abortion and anti government being involved in marriage. Any two people can legally go to the lawyer and intermingle their financial and legal lives. Why do you need to government to do anything?

If two men, two women, father and son, whatever want to legally unify, I support that. Remove the government and marriage will default into a religious ceremony for those who care and a party for those who don't.

I don't need some bureaucrat to sign a paper and validate my personal life.

In reply to elephonky
3/8/12
elephonky:

Look, you brought up the whole "well if we give them free birth control, they'll complain that they 'couldn't get to the store' and then we'll have to drive them there" bullshit. That would be an "excuse" for why they couldn't prevent the pregnancy, thus prompting my argument that mandating insurance-covered birth control would prevent much of these "excuses" from having merit.

Yes, because they will. I'm not making excuses for them...I'm pointing out that they will always have them, up until the point you are forcefully inoculating people. I've seen it time and again. A child is a paycheck to many of these people. They know that if they don't work and they have a kid, the government will send them a check because they don't want that kid to go hungry. Need more money? Just have another kid because the state will send another check. The problem with most people is they try to apply their own rational thought process to a situation they don't really comprehend. Would you ever choose to be homeless? No, probably not...so when you see a homeless person, your immediate thought is they must have been on the wrong end of a bad situation. Some people choose to be homeless, some people choose to be uneducated and never finish high school or go to college, some people choose to work in a toll booth and never advance, because it's easy and life just isn't that bad when you boil it all down. It's hard for people like those of WSO to understand this sometimes because even the 'best' is just a stopping point on the way to achieving 'better'.

elephonky:

This just makes it seem like you lack perspective. Not everyone can get to the drug store to buy morning after pills and furthermore not everyone has the money for them. Should they not be having sex in the first place? Sure. But that's a pipe dream; reality is that poor people will have sex, so let's prevent the pregnancies in the most cost-effective way. Ranting that they should have some fucking responsibility is all fun and dandy, so you can do that while the rest of us try to find realistic solutions. (or we could just say fuck it and let the shit continue to hit the fan).

I have plenty of perspective. I realize that people often only achieve what they are expected to achieve...and for some reason you want to keep lowering the bar. This nation survived, and thrived, for centuries with no birth control and only one parent work...but for some reason we no longer can. And please, show me some people that can't get a drug store I and will show you someone who is either A) not trying or B) starving to death because they can't get to the grocery store either. And I'm still not sure what your realistic solution is...I've pointed out all the things that could and would go wrong there...but at least you feel better about trying, after all, that's what it's all about...feelings.

elephonky:

Your analogy sucks, please don't even try to defend it. It reeks of partisan bias and intentional ignorance of facts. I'll try to apply it more appropriately: let's say we have a crime problem amongst the poor populations (basically reality). There are excessive murders each year, primarily in the lower classes. The government mandates that health insurance companies provide an option for subsidized guns for those that live in areas with crime above X% (in case you're not following - these people are the "women" of the birth control debate) for self defense. Guns are made more accessible at the cost of the private insurance companies, but crime is deterred because everyone knows that it's cheaper to have a gun, and thus more likely that trying to murder someone could more easily result in your own death. Overall result: murders amongst lower classes decrease over time.

And the conservatives/liberals/whoever the fuck is against it says:

But what if someone doesn't use their self-defense gun that all our TAX DOLLARS paid for (even though they didn't, but I'll ignore that since you all seem to be stuck on it)? What if their gun is faulty and they get murdered anyway?? What if some anti-NRA group is morally against hazardous weapons being subsidized?!?!? OMGZ WHAT A WASTE OF MONEY AND INFRINGEMENT OF PERSONAL LIBERTIES.

(Go ahead, rip it apart. But in the end it still aligns with the current situation a shit ton more than your analogy.)

Talk about a stretch. Your analogy is far worse than mine. The First Amendment of the Constitution clearly states that the right to practice your religion shall not be infringed upon. Forcing a religious organization to do something that goes entirely against their doctrine is a clear violation of that. I'm not sure where your shitty gun analogy fits in there since the Constitution allows citizens to arm themselves in accordance with local and state laws.

elephonky:

Have you read the first amendment? It could be a fucking infinite amount clearer. I can't even believe you just said that.

As a matter of fact I have. I'll even quote it here for you so don't have to get beat up trying to figure that whole 'Google' thing out. However, if you do wish to look it up, it's called the Free Exercise Clause (no, it has nothing to do with gym memberships). In part it reads...

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Jesus, could it be any clearer than that?!?

elephonky:

I know the right LOVES to flip shit when the president/anyone calls his Christmas tree a holiday tree, but where are they now to recite the rest of the oft forgotten pieces that coincidentally don't match up with their views?

I realize this is your attempt to be clever...you know, by using a very similar sentence structure as mine but turning it around on me...but I'm failing to see the point. Obama claims to be a Christian and would likely put up a Christmas tree, not a holiday tree...very similar to how it's been done forever. The beef that the right has is the attempt by the left to marginalize their religious beliefs. Growing up everyone celebrated Christmas, even those that weren't self described Christians and who never went to church. In most people's minds, Christmas means Santa and presidents, not Jesus and church. What changed? Nothing except people now go out of their way to impose their views on others (that can go both ways). Growing up everyone said Merry Christmas, but it's somehow become offensive. Christmas is a federally recognized holiday but I don't see the anti-Christmas folks showing up to work.

The bottom line is the religious right in this country feel as though their beliefs and liberties are under attack. To the point where they can't erect crosses in their own yards. The Christmas issue is just another in a long line that seek to marginalize Christianity. This whole birth control issue is just the straw that broke the camels back. I mean really...we live in a society were you can shit on a carving of Jesus, hang it by a piece of rope and call it art and it is defended as 'freedom of speech/expression' but the old couple who puts a cross up in their yard gets sued by the ACLU because the neighbor finds it 'offensive'.

elephonky:

Okay, my religion that was established millions of years ago (before anyone could write, so there's no big fancy book or anything) said that everyone must be personally and financially responsible for every action of every day. Thus, my churchgoers shouldn't have to pay for car insurance since it diminishes their perception of risk and the All Superior Supergod (we call him ASS) won't let them into the afterlife! I can't believe the government would make such a heinous law that protects so many people and can improve the country overall when it is in CLEAR defiance of my religion!

Unfortunately for you, driving isn't a right...it's a privilege...you don't have to drive, you chose to drive, thus you have to comply with the laws of the state you are in. Of course, you could always move to another state that is more favorable or even another country. Better yet, you should move back to the country that used those unwritten religious rules to establish their society and government as I suspect their laws will be more favorable.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

3/8/12

Oh man, CPH just spraying knowledge all over the place. So glad we have some correct wing posting going on. Bravo!

3/8/12

I'd fluke her so flukeing hard.

In reply to swagon
3/8/12
swagon:

I'd fluke her so flukeing hard.

Flake would be more fit to fluke her IMO.

In reply to Abdel
3/8/12
Abdel:
swagon:

I'd fluke her so flukeing hard.

Flake would be more fit to fluke her IMO.

bitch you don't know me, u don't know how i fluke son

In reply to Edmundo Braverman
3/8/12
Edmundo Braverman:

I just spent 10 days in America.

Not only should contraception be covered, it should be fucking mandatory.

EB you always manage to crack me up loudly at my workplace!

In reply to Abdel
3/8/12
Abdel:
wadtk:
heister:

We all have dicks, why do we give a shit?

We have all have rights and don't want them violated.

You have a right to your life and your liberty and that's about it.

Exactly. I agree. I have the right to not pay for shit.

In reply to cphbravo96
3/8/12

I won't waste time arguing with most of your post, as it's obvious the subjectivity of this debate will impede any progress. The facts, however, are definitely worth clearing up for you. So here goes:

cphbravo96:

elephonky:
Your analogy sucks, please don't even try to defend it. It reeks of partisan bias and intentional ignorance of facts. I'll try to apply it more appropriately: let's say we have a crime problem amongst the poor populations (basically reality). There are excessive murders each year, primarily in the lower classes. The government mandates that health insurance companies provide an option for subsidized guns for those that live in areas with crime above X% (in case you're not following - these people are the "women" of the birth control debate) for self defense. Guns are made more accessible at the cost of the private insurance companies, but crime is deterred because everyone knows that it's cheaper to have a gun, and thus more likely that trying to murder someone could more easily result in your own death. Overall result: murders amongst lower classes decrease over time.

And the conservatives/liberals/whoever the fuck is against it says:

But what if someone doesn't use their self-defense gun that all our TAX DOLLARS paid for (even though they didn't, but I'll ignore that since you all seem to be stuck on it)? What if their gun is faulty and they get murdered anyway?? What if some anti-NRA group is morally against hazardous weapons being subsidized?!?!? OMGZ WHAT A WASTE OF MONEY AND INFRINGEMENT OF PERSONAL LIBERTIES.

(Go ahead, rip it apart. But in the end it still aligns with the current situation a shit ton more than your analogy.)

Talk about a stretch. Your analogy is far worse than mine. The First Amendment of the Constitution clearly states that the right to practice your religion shall not be infringed upon. Forcing a religious organization to do something that goes entirely against their doctrine is a clear violation of that. I'm not sure where your shitty gun analogy fits in there since the Constitution allows citizens to arm themselves in accordance with local and state laws.

elephonky:
Have you read the first amendment? It could be a fucking infinite amount clearer. I can't even believe you just said that.

As a matter of fact I have. I'll even quote it here for you so don't have to get beat up trying to figure that whole 'Google' thing out. However, if you do wish to look it up, it's called the Free Exercise Clause (no, it has nothing to do with gym memberships). In part it reads...

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Just so you're aware, you can't just unbold the Establishment Clause and expect it to go away. That's right - the government, just as it can't prohibit the free exercise of religion, also can't promote the establishment of it. The presence of BOTH clauses makes things a little sticky, as I'm sure you can understand (think really hard about it, it's quite a difficult concept).

cphbravo96:
Jesus, could it be any clearer than that?!?

You're right, I don't know how anyone couldn't understand that! You should let our Supreme Court Justices know how utterly incompetent they are at their jobs, since they obviously can't seem to come to consensus as to how the two clauses are interpreted. Here are some court cases (that i'm sure you've heard of) regarding Freedom of Religion and its complexity:

Engel v. Vitale (1962)
Abington Township v. Schempp (1963)
Wallace v. Jaffree (1985)
Lemon v. Kurtzman (1973)

cphbravo96:
elephonky:
I know the right LOVES to flip shit when the president/anyone calls his Christmas tree a holiday tree, but where are they now to recite the rest of the oft forgotten pieces that coincidentally don't match up with their views?

I realize this is your attempt to be clever...you know, by using a very similar sentence structure as mine but turning it around on me...but I'm failing to see the point. Obama claims to be a Christian and would likely put up a Christmas tree, not a holiday tree...very similar to how it's been done forever. The beef that the right has is the attempt by the left to marginalize their religious beliefs. Growing up everyone celebrated Christmas, even those that weren't self described Christians and who never went to church. In most people's minds, Christmas means Santa and presidents, not Jesus and church.

change |CHanj|
verb
to make or become different

I think this is the word you're looking for. Not many people know it, and hardcore conservatives like yourself seem particularly unaware of it. It correlates with the progression of time, and applies to everything that's ever happened. Ever. It's hard for everyone, but that's all that really matters...feelings.

Over time, things change. You and the rest of the GOP needs to stop crying about it and start finding some solutions for the future that don't include saving the past.

cphbravo96:
The bottom line is the religious right in this country feel as though their beliefs and liberties are under attack.

It's funny, cause last I checked "feelings" were something to be disregarded as a completely liberal (aka crybaby) concept?

They need to get over it. They can put up fucking crosses in their yards if they want and praise Jesus/Allah/Yahweh or a fucking cow if they want. No one gives a shit. Just don't disrupt my peace and I won't disrupt yours. That means no prayer on the wall in the hallway of my public high school, nor a cross, nor a Koran in the classrom, etc. etc. That is where they don't belong, and if you disagree with that then the next decade is gonna be rough for you.

cphbravo96:
elephonky:
Okay, my religion that was established millions of years ago (before anyone could write, so there's no big fancy book or anything) said that everyone must be personally and financially responsible for every action of every day. Thus, my churchgoers shouldn't have to pay for car insurance since it diminishes their perception of risk and the All Superior Supergod (we call him ASS) won't let them into the afterlife! I can't believe the government would make such a heinous law that protects so many people and can improve the country overall when it is in CLEAR defiance of my religion!

Unfortunately for you, driving isn't a right...it's a privilege...you don't have to drive, you chose to drive, thus you have to comply with the laws of the state you are in. Of course, you could always move to another state that is more favorable or even another country. Better yet, you should move back to the country that used those unwritten religious rules to establish their society and government as I suspect their laws will be more favorable.

Regards

I also don't have to have sex, nor does anyone else. We all choose to, and the consequence of that is pregnancy. Birth control is an easy solution to that problem.

Regarding your last comment, unfortunately I come from a country that uses unfounded Christian beliefs to influence politics, as though the former has an all-but-necessary place in the latter. (I'm talking about the good ol' U.S. of A in case you didn't understand).

In reply to TNA
3/8/12
ANT:

Oh man, CPH just spraying knowledge all over the place. So glad we have some correct wing posting going on. Bravo!

"And this, children, is what's wrong with American politics today."

-anyone with eyes

In reply to wadtk
3/8/12
wadtk:
Abdel:
wadtk:
heister:

We all have dicks, why do we give a shit?

We have all have rights and don't want them violated.

You have a right to your life and your liberty and that's about it.

Exactly. I agree. I have the right to not pay for shit.

Yeah man! I haven't bought a single thing in years! The rest of this bitch ass country goes grocery shopping, and I'm like "fuck it, I don't have to pay for this shit!" and I just walk right out of the store with all my food!

Fuck the IRS! I haven't paid taxes in like...ever! I never pay for car insurance! I refuse to buy health insurance! Go USA!

...you're a dumb ass.

3/8/12

You know what is wrong with this country? The government thinking it has the right to force religious groups to pay for an entirely non necessary benefit provided.

Just liberals trying to legislate their own opinions on everyone else. If you want free birth control you should choose not to work for a Catholic group.

Fuck Fluke. Obama lackey.

3/8/12

i think what is wrong with this country is that we are about to have a currency collapse brought about by a 80-year experiment with having a massive welfare state combined with a global military empire that is eating up 25% of our GDP and we are arguing about a fat man's mean comments about a fat woman's sex life.

3/8/12

How is 20-25% of GDP breaking this country? National defense isn't making us broke, it is all the other shit.

3/8/12

the military is the ultimate dig-a-hole fill-a-hole expenditure.

3/8/12

You're right, national defense isn't making us broke. All of the nation building in the middle east is.

3/8/12

the difference between military spending and medicare and social security is that at least with welfare spending, we are driving economic growth through capital formation in response to consumption of economic goods. weapons don't produce economic goods.

and all the materials, scientists, engineers, infrastructure that gets sucked into military production is directly stolen out of the private economy. listen to ike's own language about how these are "thefts" from the productive economy. so when we are talking about 25% sucked out of the economy, that's more like 50%, because not only would we not be flushing 25% down the rathole, we'd have another 25% more GDP producing economic goods if these resources were not sucked out by the military.

you conservatives surprise me sometimes. you reflexively bash on big government's wastefulness and incompetence, but you give it so much undeserved credit on the military side.

3/8/12

Even when you factor in overseas fighting, it still isn't making us broke. It is a social security system that is underfunded and too large, countless agencies, welfare, etc.

National defense is a true purpose of the government.

In reply to melvvvar
3/8/12
melvvvar:

the difference between military spending and medicare and social security is that at least with welfare spending, we are driving economic growth through capital formation in response to consumption of economic goods. weapons don't produce economic goods.

and all the materials, scientists, engineers, infrastructure that gets sucked into military production is directly stolen out of the private economy. listen to ike's own language about how these are "thefts" from the productive economy. so when we are talking about 25% sucked out of the economy, that's more like 50%, because not only would we not be flushing 25% down the rathole, we'd have another 25% more GDP producing economic goods if these resources were not sucked out by the military.

you conservatives surprise me sometimes. you reflexively bash on big government's wastefulness and incompetence, but you give it so much undeserved credit on the military side.

So nothing comes from the military? I mean this little thing called the internet might be one.

National Defense, always ready and willing, is one of the cornerstone goals of a Federal government. That is something individual states cannot do.

Military is 4-5% of GDP. It is 25% of the budget. Not bad IMO. A strong military ensures freedom and safety. It can also keep order if the population becomes to "entitled". Hand outs keep people at bay only temporarily. In the end, the stick is always a better motivator than the carrot.

3/8/12

i did mention the welfare state which you surely hate in my original comment, but i don't give the military a free pass.

when we are inching toward north korean levels of how much of our national produce of present and future generations we are putting into a totally non-economic purpose, it becomes just as lethally parasitic as any of your hated social welfare programs. although the welfare programs (60% of budget) are larger in apparent size than the miltary (20% fixed, 5% discretionary), again, at least we can eat and drink the welfare checks. can i interest you in a medium rare W-88 plutonium warhead with a side of $400 toilet seat?

In reply to TNA
3/8/12
ANT:
melvvvar:

the difference between military spending and medicare and social security is that at least with welfare spending, we are driving economic growth through capital formation in response to consumption of economic goods. weapons don't produce economic goods.

and all the materials, scientists, engineers, infrastructure that gets sucked into military production is directly stolen out of the private economy. listen to ike's own language about how these are "thefts" from the productive economy. so when we are talking about 25% sucked out of the economy, that's more like 50%, because not only would we not be flushing 25% down the rathole, we'd have another 25% more GDP producing economic goods if these resources were not sucked out by the military.

you conservatives surprise me sometimes. you reflexively bash on big government's wastefulness and incompetence, but you give it so much undeserved credit on the military side.

So nothing comes from the military? I mean this little thing called the internet might be one.

National Defense, always ready and willing, is one of the cornerstone goals of a Federal government. That is something individual states cannot do.

Military is 4-5% of GDP. It is 25% of the budget. Not bad IMO. A strong military ensures freedom and safety. It can also keep order if the population becomes to "entitled". Hand outs keep people at bay only temporarily. In the end, the stick is always a better motivator than the carrot.

thank you for the correction, i conflated budget with GDP.

this is the classic hazlitt "seen/unseen" problem of government expenditure. yes we got the internet, GPS and solar cells and other goodies, for the low low cost of tens of trillions of present dollars. how much more would the private sector have produced if we let them keep some of those trillions? we'll never know if they could have produced these things for 1/1000th the cost. you're judging on the seen but the unseen is unmeasurable. not a fair comparison.

3/8/12

I might not be able to eat a warhead, but the guys who make them can eat well. As can the people who own the defense stocks. And we can all benefit from military advancements which trickle down to the civilian life.

Listen, if you want to have an argument about lower taxes or higher military spending, fine. But no way in hell do I want to cut the military, something I actually want the government to run and do, and then funnel those funds to social programs which the government has no business in.

Cut everything and then when we are at a top tax bracket of 10-15% we can discuss cutting defense to get us below 10%.

3/8/12

you'll no hear no argument for me in favor of a welfare state i am getting bled dry to support and will not see a dime out of when i am 65. so let's talk military.

the military is a huge hole digging/hole filling exercise. yes, the hole diggers eat. and the hole fillers eat. and even the shareholders of Allied Hole, LLC get paid. but who's supplying the money with which to feed and pay them? it's gotta come out of the private economy. from people who make food and other things of real economic value. and what did we get for that? a bunch of dug and filled holes.

i use hyperbole here. we need some national defense. beyond the basic necessities of actual defense, i say that the rest is digging and filling holes. building billion dollar programs for jet planes that can't fly in rain or artillery systems the army doesn't want = digging and filling holes. and a few billion here, and a few billion there -- that adds up to real money eventually.

3/8/12

Yes, very true. But lets have history be out teacher. After Vietnam we gutted military spending. Makes sense. And what happened? We had an antiquated military, without quality officers and a pretty shitty armed forces. It took years to rebuild and shift to a professional, all volunteer army.

The military needs a steady state of funding. We need new air craft carriers, extra special forces, new planes, etc.

What needs to happen is we need to cut the fat out of the military. Make things more efficient. More with less. But a lot of military R&D is beneficial to the general public. Advancements in battlefield surgery, robotics, lasers, etc, all benefit us.

And lets not forget the most beneficial thing the US Military provides for us. It allow is to be the reserve currency of the world, by threat of force. Lets be honest, the US has the biggest and best gang on the planet. Just ask Saddam, Osama and Gaddafi how it feels to lose favor with the stars and stripes.

I sleep soundly in bed knowing that the US can impose its will anywhere and anytime.

In reply to TNA
3/8/12
ANT:

I sleep soundly in bed knowing that the US can impose its will anywhere and anytime.

god, this is what drives me insane about conservatives. Panties are all in a bunch when the government is "imposing its will" in its own goddamn country, but it can impose whatever the fuck it wants wherever else it wants and nothing's wrong with that!

Also, our military prestige is not what it was in the early and mid 20th Century. Since the Cold War and proliferation of nuclear weapons (oh hey Iran), everyone (read: the relevant industrial countries) ends on an equal playing field for the most part. We can all blow the shit out of each other at the touch of a button. All that matters is who will press the button first.

3/8/12

1) The Constitution only applies to America. We can be evil overlords overseas, just not here.

2) Just because you have a few shitty nukes doesn't bring you to the USA's level. Also, nukes are show pieces, not that functional. Only a few nations (USA, Russia, China) have the swag to go nuclear and really F things up. Iran can get a good hit in, but would become a field of glass when things are all said and done.

Besides, I am ardently against nuclear weapons. Destroy too much infrastructure.

In reply to melvvvar
3/8/12
melvvvar:

you'll no hear no argument for me in favor of a welfare state i am getting bled dry to support and will not see a dime out of when i am 65. so let's talk military.

the military is a huge hole digging/hole filling exercise. yes, the hole diggers eat. and the hole fillers eat. and even the shareholders of Allied Hole, LLC get paid. but who's supplying the money with which to feed and pay them? it's gotta come out of the private economy. from people who make food and other things of real economic value. and what did we get for that? a bunch of dug and filled holes.

i use hyperbole here. we need some national defense. beyond the basic necessities of actual defense, i say that the rest is digging and filling holes. building billion dollar programs for jet planes that can't fly in rain or artillery systems the army doesn't want = digging and filling holes. and a few billion here, and a few billion there -- that adds up to real money eventually.

The military is the largest R&D program in the US. Sad, but true. Advanced material research, micro-electronics/computing, telecommunication - all military. Yes, we can bash defense spending - but some of the greatest breakthroughs for the private economy were largely financed by defense spending (of course, a shitload of other stuff that was worthless as well - but the positives largely outweigh the negatives).

3/8/12

fucking unbelievable, how anyone with a fucking brain can take this sandra fluke character half seriously.

No, i will not subsidize your sexual habits, because quite frankly, i dont give a shit if you get pregnant. its your decision, you take respnosibilty over your actions. And if you cant feed your baby thats not my fucking problem either. We should be trying to end welfare once and for all.No food stamps, no unemplyoment, none of that crap. Instead we would have people taking responsibilty for their fucking actions. instead we're taking nonsense like this seriously. What a load of crap, seriously.

3/8/12

oh and for all the idiots that say its cheaper for insurance to just give it out rather than cover the baby.,,, thats total crap. If that was the case the companies would have done that on their own without a aw mandating.

3/8/12

ANT for president.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

In reply to canyonman
3/8/12
canyonman:

oh and for all the idiots that say its cheaper for insurance to just give it out rather than cover the baby.,,, thats total crap. If that was the case the companies would have done that on their own without a aw mandating.

Many insurance companies actually do, which is fine. But insurance is an optional benefit, paid in large part by employers. Employers have a right to decide the level of benefit they offer to retain the talent that they want. If an employer doesn't want to pay for birth control (or viagra) they should have that right.

In reply to TNA
3/9/12
ANT:

1) The Constitution only applies to America. We can be evil overlords overseas, just not here.

2) Just because you have a few shitty nukes doesn't bring you to the USA's level. Also, nukes are show pieces, not that functional. Only a few nations (USA, Russia, China) have the swag to go nuclear and really F things up. Iran can get a good hit in, but would become a field of glass when things are all said and done.

Besides, I am ardently against nuclear weapons. Destroy too much infrastructure.

1) I agree with that logic. That said, though, Manifest Destiny is dead. We really can't be evil overlords in the modern world, especially since we no longer have a strong religious justification for it.

2) No one's on our level. Period. But that doesn't mean we'd come out clean. I think things are gonna get really testy with China in the coming years, once they realize that our debt that they've been hoarding is going to shit. Not sure what to think about Russia; they've got enough problems at home with Putin that I don't think we'd end up in any kind of standoff with them. But China...I wouldn't be surprised.

I too am against nuclear weapons, but they put everyone in a tough situation because of their power. We can't just continue to fight with simple combat/drones/missiles forever if we know that nuclear technology is available, regardless of UN sanctions.

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