SEO

If you get in, you'll have a great chance at being placed.

SEO interns are considered by some (actually, a lot of people from what I hear) to be loopholers--that is, they found a backdoor entry into IBD instead of getting in on their own merit.

At the end of the day, who gives a sh*t, we're all here to make a few bucks.

Is getting interviews through family or country club contacts also not some type of 'loopholing'?

SEO interns definitely get into IBD based on their merit. Getting into that program is extremely competitive, essentially paralleling the regular recruiting process. One SEO alum I've spoken with insisted that the SEO interview was easily the toughest on the street (this after she'd interviewed with several BBs).

I heard it was pretty difficult to get placed into SEO. Anyone know how tough it actually is to get into the program? What factors are considered most heavily and the like? Other than being a minority of course.

SEO asset management interview Advice? Anyone been through it? Let me know what its like.

guyjer:

Hello, I just heard that the SEO program is a great entry point for undergraduates who are particularly interested in a career in investment banking. On their website they say that 80% of their interns usually get offers for analysts positions upon graduation and that it's a great way to break into the business if your are not from a target school. I was wondering if this was correct, what is the reputation of this program inside of the banking industry and if you personally had any experience with SEO interns. Thanks

Yes, the program is that good, that is why it is so competitive. I know people that have gone through it and at the end of the summer they've had offers from more than one bank, up to 4 or 5 TOP BANKS!!! it's pretty crazy.

You're right that there are some SEOers who are very bright and qualified to be there except for perhaps not going to a target school.

Buuuut...there are definitely a lot (at least half, probably more like 75%, of the SEO people at the bank I intened at) who are really unqualified (low GPAs + non-target schools) and quite frankly not that bright either. About half of the SEO interns at my bank this summer got offers, and that seems to be the consensus among my friends at other banks as well. I did hear that the SEO program in general has 80% of the interns getting offers, but SEO has a whole bunch of divisions like philanthropy etc. so it's probably a lot easier to get full-time offers there than at investment banks.

I actually don't have a problem with the program (as a white male). I think it has a very admirable goal, but I think the standards need to be raised. I had to work with someone in the program over the summer, and she honestly did not get anything. She didn't get an offer, but still. I don't see anything wrong with hiring someone from a non-target, but I think SEO needs to do a better job of verifying that the applicant is actually smart. A lot of the top consulting firms (McKinsey I know) stopped working with SEO because of the low-quality applicants they were getting. I don't think any banks will actually stop working with SEO because it would be so negative from a PR perspective. I'm sure there are a bunch of superstars that come out of the program, but I think the program needs to be more selective - higher GPA standards perhaps, maybe a minimum SAT score? I only know a few of the SEO kids GPAs at my bank, but only one had over a 3.7 and the rest were in the low 3 range. One person also put a mid 1200 SAT score of his resume (I guess he thought this was good...).

Also, I think the program should be primarily aimed at non-target school students. At lot of minorities at my school with low GPAs did the progam. Since they're at Yale, they have every opportunity to meet tons of firms and earn an acceptable GPA.

The program also needs to stop taking Asians and Indians. They are well represented on Wall Street and at every top university. And employers seem to have no problem hiring them regularly.

agree with rat. seo needs to be based on economic-status, not racial status. i rather a poor, inner-city white kid get it than some douche rich minority

So does SEO get looked down upon by recruiters in the future?

Smartest kid I know at the PE place I'm interning at was SEO

btw ... he is 26 and making $750+

There are a good number of SEO people who could have gotten an internship through the general pool, but prefer the SEO program structure and benefits. I had friends who did it, they had loads of social and networking events with top minorities in banking the entire summer. Also instead of just meeting interns at one bank, they have friends in the program that interned at a number of banks. It's not just a "back door," it's a pretty comprehensive program.

the majority of SEO kids at my bank this summer were retards. And the only ones that were actually legit were the ones who came from the targets (harvard, NYU-Stern, etc.). Even a few of my friends in SEO this past year really hated the kids in it. They all thought they were the sh*t for getting in and what not, but once they got to the banks and started competing with the other interns, there was a huge discrepancy. It's a mixed bag, really, and that's what I've heard from across the street.

As for getting into the program, people say it's ridiculously hard, but it's really not. Having gone through the process myself, but then turning down final round interviews, I realized it is a bit easier than alot of the BB's. I only say this because after turning down the interviews in the first round, I got worried in March or so about not having a job, and asked if I could interview again, at which point they said sure. So, to me, it seemed like I had endless possibilities.

But i probably have a skewed viewpoint because I go to a target ivy, and SEO took 10-15 kids from my school this year. I would imagine for kids at non-target ivies, it'd be really difficult.

The program though does do interesting things and definitely has good placement. Although you could be pigeon-holed into a firm you dont' want to be at. You're also required to attend presentations at every other bank on Wallstreet during the week, which gets really tiresome after the first few times. Either way, you can opt to interview for other banks at the end of the summer and that's why people end up with offers at 3-5 BB's.

This summer 60% of the kids who didn't get offers were from SEO, despite being only 35% of the total pool. I'd definitely agree with HerSerendipity. I go to a target ivy and all the kids who do SEO are the regular recruiting rejects, that said my summer experience shows that they are more qualified/better then their average SEO peer.

HerSerendipity:

You're also required to attend presentations at every other bank on Wallstreet during the week, which gets really tiresome after the first few times.

You forgot to mention that the presenter is usually the company CEO or Head of Investment Banking.

That is definitely a perk. I guess I was a bit spoiled because I worked at a bank where the President spoke to the lot of us, as well as head of I-banking, and head of Wealth Management.

But working with people who actually worked these events (directors and MDs who volunteered to seek out these interns), they reiterated pretty much everything I said.

I worked with two SEO students. One was from Wharton, top 5% of our summer class easily. The other was from Elon (I didn't know this school existed) and he could barely speak proper english and did not do well. He was a nice guy tho. SEO has a wide distribution, you can't say everyone is top notch or everyone sucks.

I think these boards keep coming back to the same conclusion be it PE interviewing, banking interviews or whatever, the person matters more than the program. The program is just a means of opening doors, if you aren't competent those doors will shut just as fast.

I see your point. But, my friends who did SEO say that their final round interviews were usually a 3 on 1 or 4 on 1 interview, where generally they had a bad cop/good cop scenario. But, they also said it was completely fit questions, so it was easy and breezy.

I'm not sure how I see this to be any more difficult than say Goldman's final round (7 hours of interviews where I met 20 people, and also where at one point, I had half my interview conducted in French and the other half in English).

And, my first round wasn't a scheduled phone screen. It was in their offices. (the second time around I wanted an interview, they made it a phone screen).

I would honestly say that, on average, the only qualified/smart people in the program are sophomores from target schools - these are probably the brightest kids in SEO. They probably could have gotten into a bank on their own if they were juniors. I know a few people from my school who did SEO as sophomores and they usually were pretty qualified. I would echo HerSerendipity in that, besides the sophomores, most of the SEO kids in my program were dumb. And the juniors from target schools are usually those who tried to go through regular recruiting and failed to get any decent offers or interviews (although yes, there is always the occasional smart + cool SEO intern). I know two people from my school (Yale) who did SEO after not getting any internship offers - 1 is just weird although she has a decent GPA (3.2), which is good enough with affirmative action to get an internship at banks, and the other has a 2.6 but is a nice guy. All of the sophomore SEO interns from target schools at my bank got offers to return next summer, but only 20% of the other SEO interns got offers to return full-time.

I don't think the program has a great reputation among those in the know at banks. At one firm I interviewed with last February for an intenship, I spoke with an HR woman after I received an offer about the offer rate among summer interns. She told me that it was about 70% (which is pretty standard among the banks on Wall Street). I asked her why those 30% didn't get offers, and although she hesitated at first, she told me that the firm worked with a "minority program" and that they were usually only able to give about 30% of the interns from this program offers. She said excluding those interns, the offer rate is actually about 90% among the non-"minoity program" interns. I did ask her if the program she was speaking about was SEO, and she said yes. In my banking group this summer, we had 2 SEO interns, neither of which got offers. A VP actually told me, late one night when I was trying to do the work of two people for a deal (I had to work with this really dumb girl from SEO for part of a deal), that they try to avoid getting SEO interns in their group. Apparently, SEO doesn't notify the banks of which interns they're getting until about late April, at which point most of the regular interns have already been placed into groups and notified of their placement. My VP said that placement for the regular interns is determined by a meeting of senior people from the various groups and HR. He said that our group tries to fill the group up during that meeting so we can't accomodate anyone from SEO. Just looking at the final placement sheet from two banks (forwarded to me by friends interning at those banks), it seems that SEO interns usually get placed in the worst or least desirable groups at the bank. Sure, every bank says that they love SEO and that it's such a great program, but I think if you look beneath the surface you'll find that that isn't true at all.

Also, SEO interns sometimes get offers from the bank they interned at, but the offer is to another division. My friend told me that his banking group did not recommend an SEO intern for an offer, but that the kid ended up getting an offer to the firm risk division. So I guess the bank stays in the good graces of SEO since they technically gave the kid an offer, but they don't have to have someone incompetant join their firm since presumably he wants to do banking so will go interview with other firms. Since he can say that he received "an offer" to return, he'll easily be swept up by other banks. It's actually a really smart strategy by the banks (plus they screw their competitors over by delivering them an incompetant kid).

I think that the banks do try and give SEO interns offers, since they have to hire some minorities after all otherwise they lose all deals tied to federal funds. So if the intern is technically not good enough to earn an offer but decent, he will probably get an offer.

Also, regarding Hank_Paulson's comment that "there are plenty of summers analysts from target schools who did shitty work and didn't get it. I fail to see your point.", that's only sort of true. First, from speaking with friends at pretty much every bank on the steet, it seems that only about 40-50% of SEO interns get offers, whereas about 85% of the regular interns get offers. Second, even though you're right that there are interns from target schools who end up sucking, at least they (usually) earned their place to be there - they're smart and have a great GPA. They deserved the chance to intern at a bank. The same can definitely not be said for the SEO interns who didn't get offers.

rat4100:

Second, even though you're right that there are interns from target schools who end up sucking, at least they (usually) earned their place to be there - they're smart and have a great GPA. They deserved the chance to intern at a bank. The same can definitely not be said for the SEO interns who didn't get offers.

SEO kids don't "deserve" to intern at a bank? This perverse sense of entitlement is the reason programs such as SEO exist. The program does its best to identify "talented people of color with an interest in giving back to their community" and although the process isn't perfect, it's close. This year over 5,000 candidates will be interviewed for about 400 positions (of which approx 300 will be in the IB program).

As for those who infiltrate the program lacking the "smarts", the (job) market will deal with them accordingly. He/she will not get an offer.

SEO is able to put together a strong talent pool. Banks take a look and pick who they want. Full-time interviews at the end of the summer do not differ from normal recruiting full time interviews. If a candidate can not express his interest in the field/firm, and can not articuluate himself effectively he wont get the offer.

Rat4100, you seem to have spent a great amount of effort and time collecting the 'facts' and information you have presented. What else did you come across?

How is SEO not earning the opportunity? Correct me if I am wrong, but regular interns do not even have to fill out an application before they get an interview, rather they just submit their resume on their school's career website or they have their contact forward their resume on to the recruiter who will contact you for the interview. For SEO, you have to get 2 letters of recommendation, write 3 essays, and then you may have a chance to get selected to just intern. Be careful on how you describe "earning" it. Some people may think that that paying $45,000 a year for pretty much the alumni network and emailing a few of the 1,000 people your particular school has at the company to forward your resume on really is not earning it either. Others may think that some rich kid who's daddy is a major client of the firm who gets in b/c the firm is doing him a favor to keep his dad's business really is not earning it either. Fact of the matter is that your level of knowledge can be very little and if you know the right people you can get into these firms (in some cases). The point I am trying to make is that all of these methods of getting into i-banks whether it be SEO or simply b/c you go to Harvard are valid reasons for why you should be at the firm and at the end of the day everyone is on the same boat. You are not even in the program, yet you are able to make statements such as "the only qualified/smart people in the program are sophomores from target schools". You have worked at 1 bank in 1 group, and SEO deals w/ 32 firms in a variety of fields so it is just false for you to make that kind of statement.
Secondly you say, "it seems that only about 40-50% of SEO interns get offers, whereas about 85% of the regular interns get offers". Have you completely made up those figures? SEO says that over 80% of their interns get full time offers (so your telling me that SEO is inflating the actual numbers by twice the amount?) You go on to say, "I would much rather attend an ivy league university, score a 3.9 GPA, and truly earn the opportunity to intern at an investment bank through the regular, non-SEO program". Well congratulations buddy but have you ever thought about people who cannot afford to attend an ivy league university or may have a personal situation that has caused them to go to a University near their family? SEO goes out and seeks that qualified talent all across the country and I just do not see where the problem about that is? It is great to give your opinion, but to tell just blatant lies and damage the image of the program to others is just not right.

First, let me say that I am an African American so I may be a bit biased. I go to a target university with a GPA over the 3.5 threshold (although some of the banks including Goldman have minimum requirements of 3.0 at my university). I am working on the typical double major in accounting and finance with a minor in economics. I was thinking about going the SEO route but am instead taking an internship at a Big 4 accounting firm (in one of the major markets where it is harder to get the position) this summer. I may try to land a full time analyst position next fall, but I am not sure I am willing to sacrifice 90 hours a week. With that said I have a couple of comments on the SEO program:

1) "And the juniors from target schools are usually those who tried to go through regular recruiting and failed to get any decent offers or interviews"

At my university (a target school) this would be impossible. The banks do full time hiring in the fall and the internship recruiting process doesn't really begin until the first week after winter break. So far we have only had the resume drops and what not. That first week after break is when most of the bigger banks begin giving info sessions (a couple have already), roundtables and things of that nature. The first round (on campus) interviews aren't until the end of January.

By this point I believe SEO is almost finished. So I really doubt most of the juniors from target universities were denied through the regular recruiting process.

2) Most of the people that attended the university session from my school were Asian. That leads me to believe that most of those placed through my school are Asian. I am sure most of you are assuming that the SEO candidates aren't intelligent and most of them are black/Hispanic.

3) I know of white students at my university who have landed internships and jobs in investment banking with less than the 3.5 mark. Why? These students brought something unique to the table. One was an ex-marine, one was on the lacrosse team, and one had their own business that was turning a profit. These students brought a unique perspective to the table so they got the job. I think the same can be said for underrepresented minorities.

4) As far as the standardized testing goes, I think that is a joke. If you don't have to take this test during regular recruiting why should SEO interns have to do it?

Theoretically it is pretty easy to have a 3.5 GPA by the time the spring semester of your junior year roles around. Have a 4.0 at the end of your freshman year with a bunch of easy 100 level courses and then get roughly a 3.2 over the next three semesters when you are taking the harder courses. I know students who have inflated GPAs because of this. Is it really hard to get a leadership position in a decent student organization? Not at all, when it comes down to it the votes are based on popularity. There are clearly many students in general that are able to have good prerequisites and a good enough GPA without being very intelligent.

5) What is the big deal if an "undeserving" student gets the internship? I am sure that one student isn't keeping you from getting in. If you are good enough you will get in. The internship only gets you in the door, you still need to perform to get the full time offer.

6) I disagree with the whole "it should be based on family income" argument. For one, nothing is expected of underrepresented minorities and as a result (at least where I'm from) the teachers just accept this and don't expect anything from them. As a result if a minority slacks off, the teacher doesn't care unless they are hurt impacting other students.

7) Why don't we just get rid of all networking events and base everything on paper? Why do I suggest this? Many students get internships based on the fact that they have an "in" at the firm. Even when networking, people are most likely to recommend someone that is similar to themselves. Considering most of the ibanking world is white and male obviously white males have an advantage in this sense. To me that advantage is as great as any advantage from affirmative action.

The other day I was talking to a friend who has a brother and father at Abbott Laboratories. "So you're dad got your brother the job." "No, my dad just got my brother the interview. My dad didn't help at all."

I can't believe she couldn't see the advantage her brother had.

I have no family in this country and a very Muslim, Arab last name (I am half Arab, half British). I interviewed with and networked with predominantly white males (many of whom were Jewish) during the process. Yet I landed numerous jobs and found many of my white, Jewish interviewers to be extremely helpful. Everyone is going to face some bias, and from what I saw in the banking field, there is actually not that much bias to those who are percieved as earning their place. For example, there were non-SEO black analysts (from target schools) in my program and they ended up in great groups and were not percieved any differently from the rest of the interns (and they all got offers).

Rat4100, you are the type of person that motivates me even more. I love your thinking(read: ignorance). I hate posting on these boards because things can really get out of hand, but I feel as though someone really needs to give you a life lesson. The sense of entitlement that some of you guys have is ridiculous.

Most of the SEO guys that I spoke with, and still keep in touch with, were all all >1400 SAT. I took my SAT(no prep, no studying) the day after I played in the HS All Star game and got a 1520. I have two degrees that are infinitely more difficult than anything you will ever encounter; The only chance I ever get to study is after practice at 7-8pm, when I am already extremely exhausted. THen I have to get up again at 5;30am to go to our morning workouts. My situation is not unique. I met another guy from SEO that has a nat'l champion ring who's GPA is just as good and SAT is just as strong.

I would love to take any standardized test, ANY standardized test, and I guarantee that I would do better than you ever could. And I am a full minority-black. SEO is full of some of the strongest students. Of course there are some that slip through the cracks, just like in investment banking.

I mean, really, who are you to judge who is smart, who deserves a shot at a great job. Your ignorance amazes me. If you had even a modicum of intelligence, you would understand that you are no better than any of the other analyst/interns in I banking. Actually, chances are, I turned down the acceptance to whatever Ivy league school you are attending right now. Difference is, I would not have paid a dime; you're in debt a hundred G's buddy.

Please, please, bring it down a level kid. Please internalize these feelings of entitlement you have. They will not get you very far. Geez.

Yeah I hear that a ton of Asians apply to SEO, but I think it's extremely difficult to get into the program as an Asian (largely because Asian's aren't underrepresented in banking at least at the lower levels). At my bank at least, we didn't have any Asian SEO interns.

Oh, and I forgot to mention one thing. SEO checks to see what banks you have already applied. They check to see if you have any rejections. This goes into their decisions as to which applicants get an internship. If, by the slight chance, you get in even though u were rejected bya bank, they will certainly not place you there.

Haha I'm not in debt at all (my parents paid). I'm not American anyway, so I couldn't have gotten any financial aid. And I got a 1580 SAT and English isn't even my first language. Did you turn down an acceptance to Yale (by the way I am an econ and math double major, what were your degrees in)? Actually, as a black person with a 1520 I'm sure you would have gotten into Yale and about every other school in this country. A black person with that score is pretty much unheard of, that's why on average universities add 230 points (based on the old 1600 scale) to the SAT scores of black applicants (see this for the shortened version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_the_United_States).

By the way, are you African (not African-American)?

Rat4100,

What is wrong with you? I am not even black but how can you make such remarks like that? You want a reward for English not being your first language? You know how many international kids are in the USA whose 2nd language is English? Why would you take cheap shots at African Americans like that? You say, "A black person w/ a 1520 is pretty much unheard of". Why even say this? Can you be anymore prejudice? It just amazes me that you can make these kinds of statements, when you as a Muslim Arab, could easily receive very degrading racial remarks from people if they wanted to stoop to your level. If you are an example of the kind of person that goes to Yale I am glad I did not go there. Have some self respect and why damage your school's reputation by talking like a complete idiot?

Kmahajan,

I'm just stating the facts. I am not prejudiced, but I do know that there are very few African-Americans with that type of score (on a percentage to total racial population basis, compared to whites & Asians). Do you disagree with me? I wouldn't have any problem if you stated a "fact" about Muslim Arabs (by the way, I'm not really Muslim; was raised both Christian (my mom's religion) and Muslim). If you told me that pretty much all of the terrorists in the USA were Muslim, I'd agree with you. But even though all of the terrorists are Muslim, not all Muslims are terrorists. So if you said all Muslims are terrorists, I'd have to disagree.

But see why would I even do that or say that? It is not only disrespectful, but just is not true. Just like how it is disrespectful for you to say, "it is unheard of for blacks to have high test scores".

-- John

i know of 4 seo guys who went through the group... I think this is pretty telling to the program. one went to KKR, one to Blackstone. The other two aren't in finance anymore. I think the program has a HUGE variance, maybe too large.. lol. To generalize the program I think is a bit harsh. It's just soo vast. It's not like comparing one bank to another. As for black bankers, I met Ray McGuire when he has co-head of M&A at MS. I think he went through SEO. he wuz probably the most respected banker at MS. The guy has a BA, MBA, and JD from Harvard where he graduated with i think a 4.0... lol.

rat3494 I don't know what your deal is.... you seem to be very proud of yourself. I don't see why, were all analysts here. We haven't made it yet buddy.

is why Yale will always be #2.

what the hell is wrong with you rat? get a grip dude, you are looking more ignorant with every post...

I'm suprised more people haven't commented on Rat4100's comments. Well, here are my thoughts.

I think most of the people ripping him to threads regarding his posts about SEO and minorities' test scores are probably minorities. I'm not going to bother commenting on SEO since I think everything has already been said - the program has its good points and its down points. But what I do want to say is that Rat4100's comments regarding African-American tests scores (and Muslim extremist terrorists) are extremely un-politically correct, but nonetheless statistically true. So, I don't think you all should call him an "idiot" or "ignorant" in the senese that his comments about test scores and terroism aren't true (because unfortunately, they are true), although I guess he WOULD be an idiot if he actually said that stuff aloud to anyone besides close acquaintances, since it's extremely un-politically correct. Anyone who thinks he is "ignorant" because of his views on test scores and terrorists needs to do a bit of reseach.

so I guess you are a racist too jgsim, welcome to rat's club!!!

rules: 1)white males shall rule the world 2)minorities be damn, they don't deserve opportunities 3)never question the superior intelligence of the white race over all the other ones

Wow, you obviously just don't comprehend the point of my post. Did I say that African-Americans are stupid? Nope. I simply pointed out that STATISTICALLY SPEAKING they do worse on the SAT than other racial groups. Never did I say that the reason for this is because African-Americans are dumber than other racial groups. There are plenty of other explanations for this - lower socioeconomic status, for one. Look, it's just a fact, nothing more. You are extremely ignorant in that you're calling both myself and Rat ignorant for making that very well documented point.

Also, never do I say that minorities don't deserve opportunities or that whites are more intelligent (just that they test better; actually, Ashkanazi (spelling?) Jews test the best, followed by Asians, and then whites).

Now, try and understand the point I am trying to make, please, rather than just calling me a racist because the point is not politically correct. Can someone else please set this dpiderit guy straight??

I think Rat's behavior is reflective of his upbringing. He isn't from America, as he said, and the only exposure he has to America is the school he attends - which happens to be comfortably isolated from the realities of our country. I am not condoning his behavior, but rather trying to rationalize it in my mind. His arguments are logically explained (while many of yours are much too emotionally charged), but what is missing is an ounce of human decency and an awareness of others. From personal experience I've realized it takes a lot more than just intelligence to succeed in this world, I'm sure of it. In fact, I would say that part of intelligence is the ability or even mere willingness to empathize with other people. If rat doesn't realize this soon enough, he will likely be disappointed later on in his career.

In any professional services job, intelligence alone is not enough. You need to have EQ to maintain client relationships. If you give all 1600 scorers banking interships, I'll be willing to bet that >60% of them won't make it.

As for the racial issue raised in this thread... As a non-white American, I find that minorities are some of the most racist people that I know.

Less than 1% of Wall Street is minority. The sole reason why organizations such as SEO exist is to give underrepresented candidates an opportunity or at minimum an introduction. Sure, the opportunity/introduction doesn't guarantee success of any kind and of course candidates have to prove themselves on the job every day etc.

I'm extremely disappointed to read many of the posts on this thread. Very disheartening. The reality is that there are some extremely elitist professionals in IB. All the same, rest assured others in IB are nothing like that. Myself included. Call it the school of hard knocks if you will, but I certainly know better than to think I have it made.

That being said, the most disturbing comments from rat and others are those that allude to some sort of elite "inner circle":

I don't think the program has a great reputation among those in the know at banks. - In the know about what?!? What do they KNOW?

I spoke with an HR woman after I received an offer

I don't want to be a racist or anything but at least 30% of African Americans have White blood in them so consider that when you make your racist judgments.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=your_stupid_ideas

Less than 1% of Wall Street is minority.

This is not true. You're trying to claim that Wall Street is more than 99% white? Not even close, kid.

My dad has been a banker for years, he is black and his only black friend in banking went to business school with him. In my experience it's getting better for our generation but for people who've been in the business for 20 years it's probably around 3% minority at best.

Then again, when I visited the trading floor where I'll be working next year, there was only one black guy (who promptly hit on me, hah).

is absolutely false. You pretty clearly just pulled that number out of your a$$. It's true that Wall Street is white male dominated, but it's certainly not 99% white! Asians and Indians are becoming a dominant force on Wall Street. The percentage of Asians and Indians in banking far outnumbers their actual percentage in the population (this happends in elite college too - I think most ivys are like 25% Asian). There is actually an interesting debate on this (it involves whether we should have affirmative action or not), and it centers around the case of Asians and Indians as "model minorities" and other minorities as "problem minorities." In my summer class, we had a lot of Asians and Indians, and a good number of blacks and Hispanics too (not just from the SEO program).

Regarding fp175's comment, I'd have to say that oddly enough I saw very few blacks and Hispanics in the the sales and trading program at my bank. I honestly think they had 1 black guy in the whole program. I'm not sure why, since I thought SEO had a sales and trading program too (and presumably the banks want to hire some underrepresented minorities into the S&T program also)? The sales and trading program seemed to be hugely dominated by Asians and Indians actually. Also, I noticed that a lot of trading desks were run by Indian guys. This leads me to assume that perhaps Indians are just the most adept at the skills required in trading? Since it seems illogical that the banks would promote Indians and hire so many Asians/Indians into S&T if the banks were so white-male biased as everyone claims. I guess it's that whole argument that Asians/Indians are the best at math?

sorry for asking this question...but what exactly is SEO, some sort of non profit job placement service for minorities?? How does it work and can a first year in Canada apply?

Why don't you try GOOGLE

www.seo-usa.org

speaking as a member of a non-white skinned minority that comprises less than 5% of the US total population & as an immigrant whose first language is not english, i have mixed feelings about the program.

yes, the SEO program is wonderful in that it can open doors for many minorities. and yes, i do think the spectrum fo students that get into the SEO program is tremendously broad, but at the same time I do think it is a little un-meritocratic.

this is a bit obvious of course; it has its good points and its bad points. but what im saying is that i dont think its nearly close to perfect as someone suggested.

i think its not too controversial of a statement to say that there is a good (not majority but still, significant) proportion of SEO interns who simply are not on par with their regular recruiting 'mates and that's simply a problem. i agree it's not good that in the US the patrician gentry and other groups known to frequent ivies for education have an odd sense of entitlement.

however, (& let me make clear now: i believe these sorts of programs have admirable goals that i unequivocally support on a moral ground but perhaps not implementation-wise. i think they play an important role in equalizing soft factors)...

i think there's an odd sense of entitlement in saying: i deserve a spot at X because my group is traditionally underrepresented. i understand that people also object to the idea of hook-ups/connections, differences in socioeconomic status... but at the same time when you look at people who have had the advantage of Affirmative Action policies that favor minorities in getting to higher education, then who perform worse at the very same institutions, it sometimes makes me wonder if we're not taking face-value diversity of race too seriously because we're sacrificing a lot of equality of opportunity for it.

On the 1%... I'm dating myself. I was actually referencing one of the first studies of it's kind on minorities in Wall Street which I think that was done around 1996-1997. You guys are probably right in that the percentage is now stronger. However, is 5% of wall street stronger than 1%, really?Anyways the study's focus was on the representation of African Americans and Hispanics. The study did not include Indians and Asians...

On that note, generally Indians and Asians are grouped together into general "Asian". Although more specifically, Indians are further classified as "Southern Asian".

In any event those of you that are still in undergrad or are analysts in your 1st and 2nd year... admittedly you guys have an entirely different perspective. The perspective that I and many of my friends have in industry is significantly different than yours. In fact, many of the programs that currently exist such as SEO are attributed to the commitment that MY generation has had to impact the presence of Hispanics, African Americans etc. on Wall Street. Also, the discussion of this thread is very narrow minded in that it focuses on just one program. Yet, trust me, the majority of you wouldn't even appreciate the grassroot efforts it has taken to even develop that program and others like it for underrepresented students of color.

Argue about it. Resent it. Debate it ad nauseum if you must. Try to discredit it even if you will. However, these programs are vitally important to Wall Street.

As of this thread I'm officially revealing myself as an "old timer".

On the 1%... I'm dating myself. I was actually referencing one of the first studies of it's kind on minorities in Wall Street which I think that was done around 1996-1997. You guys are probably right in that the percentage is now stronger. However, is 5% of wall street stronger than 1%, really?Anyways the study's focus was on the representation of African Americans and Hispanics. The study did not include Indians and Asians...

On that note, generally Indians and Asians are grouped together into general "Asian". Although more specifically, Indians are further classified as "Southern Asian".

In any event those of you that are still in undergrad or are analysts in your 1st and 2nd year... admittedly you guys have an entirely different perspective. The perspective that I and many of my friends have in industry is significantly different than yours. In fact, many of the programs that currently exist such as SEO are attributed to the commitment that MY generation has had to impact the presence of Hispanics, African Americans etc. on Wall Street. Also, the discussion of this thread is very narrow minded in that it focuses on just one program. Yet, trust me, the majority of you wouldn't even appreciate the grassroot efforts it has taken to even develop that program and others like it for underrepresented students of color.

Argue about it. Resent it. Debate it ad nauseum if you must. Try to discredit it even if you will. However, these programs are vitally important to Wall Street.

As of this thread I'm officially revealing myself as an "old timer".

Everyone seems to think SEO's #1 goal is to get you a job period. That is not true at all, but is just one of the small aspects that comes out of the program. The thing about the people from SEO is that they are committed to helping others whether it be in their careers or just in their community. And I think because SEO gave them this tremendous opportunities with one of these firms, the people of SEO almost feel like it is their duty to help the future SEO kids as well as people around them who are disadvantaged. I personally would much rather work with someone in i-banking who has these types of qualities and this kind of personality than some kid who's main selling point is his 1600 SAT and his 5 internships

I absolutely agree that it'd be better to work with someone who is committed to helping others whether it be in their careers or in the community over someone with just a pure 1600 SAT and 5 internships.

But in reality, how many people have such a drive to contribute to society and how many people look at SEO as a way to get into a field that is widely viewed as lucrative and difficult to break into?

Also, the essential argument of tremendous personal qualities trumping the "good on paper" factors of SAT scores, grades, internships, etc. makes an implicit assumption that the person with the good scores/internships has virtually no personality. The reason I feel that this is unfair is b/c more often than not, the kids with great experience and academic scores are driven, ambitious and hard-working. Yes they may have personal connections but (a) what percentage of the regularly recruited analyst class relies purely on connections to get in & (b) connections have no bearing on how you perform academically which requires a good amount of diligence.

Yes, it's also often true that the intangible factors of SEO candidates CAN make them better in general as co-workers and candidates. However, my point was that I think there's a certain consensus that with some diversity recruiting efforts the results don't overwhelmingly support this sort of characterization.

I don't know what the SEO numbers are; but for example, after the UC system banned affirmative action based purely on race and rather focused on socioeconomic status (hardship), the number of black individuals accepted into the UC system plummeted. Clearly an indication that the old system emphasized the pure color of your skin more than hardship, overcoming of obstacles, genuinely interesting stories, experiences and drive to give back to the community.

The significant proportion of SEO-recruited analysts who don't do as well as their peers suggests that there's much room for improvement in implementation of tools to achieve diversity. I guess it's the employment analog of the well-documented phenomenon of affirmative action/athlete/legacy children tending to perform poorly at prestigious schools.

It's fair to say that minorities have invaded I-Banking in particular and Wall Street in general. The bank where I interned at last summer had an associate intern class of 10, of which only 2 were white, the rest were all Indian.

But I'll save this for another thread on another day...

9 out of 10 people who got into banking that I know off, are either indian or asian, only 1 guy is white.

Disclaimer: The post above has been made by someone who is not currently employed in IBD, and has not had an interview yet...

Indians and Asians are not underrepresented in banking. Blacks and Latinos are.

So, what I don't understand is, if it's really racist preferences in hiring that prevent minorities from getting jobs in banking and necessitate programs like SEO, why are there so many Asians and Indians in banking? I have a hard time believing that the racist white people which supposively fill banks are going to exclusively dislike Blacks or Hispanics - most people who are racist hate every race but their own. I think, that the color banks care most about is green - they just want to make money and want to hire whoever is going to do that best. And since they get thousands of resumes every year from Asians/Indians with high GPAs, high SATs, at top schools, who are sociable as well, why not hire lots of them? I think if they had a similar situation with Black and Hispanic applicants, the banks would be filled with Blacks and Hispanics.

No, could you explain. Maybe it is just because I'm not American, but it just doesn't make sense why of a bunch of different ethnic groups that have been stepped on by the white man in the USA's past century, 2 need preferences yet the others succeed with flying colors (better than the white man himself). Perhaps my education was biased, but weren't the Jews enslaved over and over again throughout history, and decimated in the Holocaust? Do Jews get affirmative action in Germany? Also, didn't the USA decide to ship Asians off to camps during WWII? And wasn't there a tiny issue after the Vietnam war? Where are the reparations for this? There is bias everywhere and there is always going to be bias. Not everyone is dealt the same hand in life; the solution is simply to work harder (i.e. outscore the white majority in standardized tests and schoolwork like Asians have done). I have certainly seen some Black and Hispanic students at my school doing this, but most of the SEO interns at my bank this summer seemed content to be mediocre knowing that they have the cushion of affirmative action.

I definitely wanna read anyone's rebuttal to rat's remarks.