Why WSO sucks (slightly long, slightly harsh)

I agree with most of your points, but I don't think WSO totally sucks.

I almost always qualify my opinion based on my actual perspective (having held a full-time job). That being said, I'm am not in IB. I was in a very small m&a shop and then a boutique IB that went under. I am now in finance at a F500.

I don't mind the posts from those who admit being clueless or ask for help. I often will chime in with something helpful on those. I do agree though that the college students acting like MDs does weigh the site down.

I really enjoy the learning experiences on this site (although they are now few and far between). I don't have any specific questions anymore, but questions or debates on financial news, m&a, analysis, etc... is intriguing to me.

I guess I do mostly agree with you b2, but my feelings are not quite as harsh. I do visit less frequently and comment much less frequently, but the site isn't all bad.

So you've indentified the problem apparently, how about a solution?

I'm a prospective monkey and have found a ton of useful information here. Obviously there is a lot of garbage as well, but you'll get that at any popular forum. Add in the fact that this forum naturally draws people who are elitist and the problem worsens because everybody thinks they're that much better/smarter/righter than everybody else. Not much you can do except filter as much garbage out as possible and realize this is just a forum and banking is just a job.

Another prospective monkey here - b2 is right, but at the same time this site has provided a lot of great insight to people like chop and myself. I can't pretend I know a lot about banking (therefore I don't post like I know everything) but I can definitely say that I know more than before due to this forum.

Nothing you've said here is news. You're sick of seeing the same old threads, over and over? So am I. I'm fucking sick of hearing people bitch about the same old thing, over and over: "not enough real bankers." There will never be "enough" people posting on here who work in the industry, so get over it.

What evidence is there that this place is degenerating? I've gotten the impression that it's getting more popular, if anything. The bigger this site gets, the more real bankers* will start posting here, even if the ratio remains constant.

*using the term banker loosely, of course
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http://www.drmarkklein.blogspot.com/

you are, in a sense, missing the point. ultimately WSO is a recruitment aid so inherently, the majority of your users are going to be prospective monkeys seeking enlightment rather than real bankers playing press conference all day or bullshitting w/noobs, I mean why would they. Thus the ratio will always be skewed. The quicker you come to terms with that, the sooner you reach nirvana.

Anyway, like the infamous MKMD has said, the site hasn't changed much and the usre base seems to be growing. I've been around since last year and its been fairly consistent with albeit a slow evolution. Also realize that a large portion of the users are lurkers going thru the archives (these are the smart ones because thats where all the knowledge is anyway) and then of course theres the idiots who post inane redundant questions or things so basic you wonder if they've never heard of investopedia.

And life goes on

As a freshman in college this site has given me great insight into the recruiting process ... who cares if some of it is bullshit, I got a pretty accurate overview

Oh yes my point? With just the archives, WSO is still one of the best knowledge bases on the internet in terms of grassroots info/adivce for prospective monkies. what more do u expect at this point. the site has found its niche, what you are looking for is drastic, fundamental change which you might find wont really result in what you're looking for in the first place

b2's point is an important one. Should WSO be a forum for bankers and financiers or for prospectives? Take medicine, for instance. You have pre-med forums that are full of highly stressed high schoolers and college students, but I'm sure the occasional med student or MD posts. On the other hand, you have professional medical sites that require proof of being a doctor in order to join. I imagine the topics of conversation differ wildly between these types of forums ("Can I get into med school with a 2.5?" vs. some legitimate medical/professional question).

The solution I propose is this: two sites, the site in its current state targeting prospectives, a new site targeting professionals. The new site requires proof of a job (don't know how that could be done discreetly), and thread creators have the option of making the thread publicly viewable, but not postable, to non-members (say, the prospectives). The site for prospectives requires no proof of anything, but a poster who's registered on the professional site has "professional status" somehow indicated next to his/her username.

This seems to solve the current problems. On the one hand you have a professional site that is not at risk of being hijacked by college students. On the other hand you have a site specifically for college students.

so a lot of people are ranting about things they know absolutely nothing about - how is this different than any other open forum?

the only real solution is to find people who have something substantial to say and follow their posts. there's a lot of bullshit noise out there - not just on this site.

Much like...well anything in life, there's plenty of bullshit out there. Your job is to post what you believe is helpful because ultimately, people will thank you for it. I imagine most of the certified users here post because they know how difficult the entire process to breaking in is. Given that, you decide which posts you respond to. It's a simple enough value proposition, right? Post when you see a topic where you feel you can add something to the discussion, and move on from the crappy topics.

One strange thing I notice is that when a crappy thread does arise, people feel the need to reiterate how stupid it is, strangely wasting their own time, posting more on the dumb topic, and allowing it to flourish instead of just moving on. Getting angry at someone for posting a dumb topic really does very little to assuage these sort of topics.

I'm a prospect too, so I've come to appreciate this site alot. The archives have alot of great information on a variety of topics, and every week there is at least one interesting topic I've found. As always, appreciate the less disgruntled, experienced posters on this site who realize every little bit of advice helps us get a leg up.

Its steadily getting better with the improvements. Check out the new tab system- that much easier to skip over the kinds of threads you don't like. Now if people go ahead and skip all the repetitive threads, we can have all the good threads in the popular tab.

The information I have gained from this forum is priceless. It should be in a MasterCard ad.

Do you understand how a value proposition works?

I can name multiple certified users that were very active and very legitimate that have since disappeared (justanotherbanker, nystateofmind, smuguy, among others). How many new legitimate certified users can you name that have joined since these ones have departed?

Thought so.

but also agree that not much can be done.

I do always find it annoying (yet sometimes hilarious) when a prospective states something about the industry or claims he/she knows whats up when in reality they are a bunch of college kids who have no idea. BTW, 1 internship at a bank over the summer does not make anyone make you knowledgable about the industry. In anycase, as others have said, you cant stop the user group from posting although I think a flagging system could work whereby you flag users giving consistently wrong information. A few strikes (flags) then you get banned from posting.

My point is that condescending, off-topic, troll-posts like this deteriorate the website. Perhaps I should clarify for you:

The value proposition for the experienced and knowledgeable posters here is that when you ignore the bad posts and focus on helping out in the threads that are deemed worthwhile, you contribute to a better website overall, which means there will be fewer bad threads for ironically, the experienced posters to complain about. Though really, it's just a few. Most of the certified users I've seen here help out alot, under the "proposition":

1. They like helping people out who are trying to break into the field because regardless of their background, they know it was tough. So when you help someone out, you get some benefit knowing you're clarifying a field that does tend to have many nuances.

or

2. The ego of being appreciated and respected on an anonymous website.

What baffles me is when experienced posters (and don't get me wrong, the plethora of people who don't know what's going on) who seemingly ought to be more busy take whatever precious free time they to post for the sake of posting: that is, acting like assholes, being douches when a bad topic comes up and fueling the fire, etc.

Can someone post an example of topics where users are giving clearly wrong information. Will help put things into context better.

Thx

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

I think people often confuse wrong information with differing opinions. Believe it or not, I see very few misrepresentations of fact on this site. The information that most users share on this site is usually correct, even those that don't work in the industry. What I think most users find frustrating is when a prospective has a differing opinion regarding a scenario they have never been a part of. While they may be less qualified to respond, I think seeing multiple perspectives can often be a good thing. I'm not saying your argument is not legitimate b2, but I think different users are looking to get different things out of the site.

Similar to that point, it is easy for the "real bankers" to feel as though they know it all. Sometimes the real bankers fail to realize that not all investment banks are the same and can operate in vastly different ways and bring quite a different experience to analysts. This isn't always the case, but it is something to keep in mind.

Anyways, similar to trade4size, I too would like to see a few examples of this happening. I'd say I read 50% of threads in select forums and have a pretty good idea of what the information flow is like. Then again, maybe I just instictively avoid the BS threads!

Every site that permits posting or comments has a signal-to-noise ratio. All websites wish theirs was higher. The problems you're referring to are pretty generic.

This is the only forum I've ever really contributed to regularly, and I choose to do so (when I have time) because our signal-to-noise ratio is actually pretty strong. And the good content is very, very good. The bad content is... kind of funny, actually.

The question is: is the BS so bad that it's going to keep you from hunting for the good stuff? If so, then peace out. If not, then don't kvetch.

Cheers.

I like this website. While I was struggling through the process of recruiting it was reassuring to post among other users going through the same process.
The information I got was pretty accurate most of the time. And usually I came on the "oasis" to have a laugh and read about some funny type of thread. I do admit some threads are pretty inaccurate, ie: the "clothing" thread are kind of a joke, and a lot of the people on those threads have absolutely no sense of fashion and see brand names as a guidance on how to dress...
Although that is beside the point.
You say that qualified users have left the website, but a lot of qualified users don't have much time to hang out on the internet anymore. This always was the case and has not changed. Now that I started work I come here only a couple times per week in the hope of catching a good thread, or answering a PM. Most prospective monkeys on this forum do become bankers, and when that happens your base of qualified users grow, even though they might not come back here as frequently.

Some people have suggested a forum strictly for bankers; I find that a terrible idea. You have your colleagues with whom you can talk about banking specific questions. I find this website useful for people applying to banking who might not have the same access to information as someone working in banking.

Anyways, this was my two cents, I just woke up from a nap, and now it's models and bottles time. I sleeked my hair American Psycho style, and am about to drop some chainsaw on some prostitutes.
Peace out.

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Remember, you will always be a salesman, no matter how fancy your title is.
- My ex girlfriend

Well said. Would agree w/ most of b2's points. I've contribted noticeably less to the forum, although I am unsure exactly why. Will try and think of specific reasons / possible solutions later and repost.

I encourage WSO to consider the previous poster's recommendation about having certain forums "read-only" for prospective members. That would give those of us w/in the industry the ability to have our own educated discussions w/o prospective noise, yet still be able to offer advice to those trying to enter the industry. This would also allow prospectives the ability to filter out all of the fellow-prospective-pretending-to-be-banker "advice."

Disjoint, you kinda proved my point with using the "clothing" thread as an example. I find it hard to believe anyone sharing insight into investment banking "clothing" is providing facts rather than opinions. You may not agree with "Monkey X" who says "Brooks Brothers is badass", but that is entirely your opinion.

Not sure if this is easy to implement (I would imagine it would be impossible), but if a user could designate a thread "Certified Only" upon posting, it would allow the user base to control who responds to their posts. I highly doubt this could be implemented, but it might satisfy some while not segregating the two communities into separate forums.

nystateofmind, I agree completely. this type of functionality is in the works among other initiatives. I think keeping the discussions "public" and having moderators police the trolls and keeping the threads in their appropriate forums is still the best option. I do, however, want to have a place where Certified users can go to discuss other more "advanced" topics and network without the students or non-certified users chiming in. This is why one of the high priorities on the list is to install Group functionality. It should be relatively easy to create a Certified Group that can serve as the "Certified Forum" as well. I believe we will be able to make it so only Certified Users can contribute, but everyone can view the group.

This will also make it much easier for me to communicate to Certified Users about the status of the WSO book that is still in the works (searching for an agent & publisher now).

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone...we're doing our best to make as many of the changes as we can in the next month. The site has needed a lot of work and the only reason it didn't get done earlier is because we did not have enough web developer man-hours which has been fixed.

As an update, on Friday we upgraded to Drupal 5.9 (from 5.2)....while that probably means little to most of you, it allows us to move forward on many improvements (like the Quick Buttons you now see on the side block).

Thanks,
Patrick

WSO -- be careful that all of these upgrades do not deteriorate the performance of the website. I've noticed a pretty significantly slowdown as of late and have no idea what it relates to. At the end of the day, speed is more important that implementing these features!

Thanks for the hard work.

compbanker, good call...I think the site is slightly slower over the last few days but I am about 99% sure it is the blocks with the Quick Buttons in them. My web developer is working on getting cached versions of those up because i think that is what is slowing down the page-loads. (non-cached side blocks like Monkeys Everywhere that is constantly changing can hit performance a lot)

thanks

Any chance that there will be a new format / design that doens't look like a Sesame Street website?

yes, we are also looking to give users the option to choose between a "work-friendly" theme (grey theme with minimalist approach) and/or an improved version of the current theme....or we might just try to make the site a bit more "professional" in general.

we are considering changing the logo and overall look but that is a lower priority than some of the other initiatives.

ginNtonic, any specific suggestions? what about the site, besides the logo, makes it look like Sesame Street? Would you want to see more grey and black vs. blue? any suggestions from other users?

Thanks,
Patrick

I'd agree with the general theme that at least a few of the users that contributed heavily to the overall quality of the forum are no longer around. Also the posts seem to be a little more redundant than they were before. I think maybe that's something the moderators should think about collectively. I made the suggestion awhile ago that redundant posts should get a link posted in it with the answer and then locked so that it eventually gets pushed downward, but I never really followed up on it.

I think probably a little of it has to do with the time of the year and the cycle of the recruiting season. The past three months no recruiting has been going on, nobody is preparing for interviews, first year analysts hadn't started or were just starting training, and everyone in the workforce is having slower months and probably spending less time in the office and more time out on the weekends. I imagine that during the fall we'll get more recruiting related questions and more questions from first years as they start in their groups. Deals will start to hit and experienced users will be spending more time in the office and thus more time on WSO.

I could be totally wrong and maybe it's just a general trend we're experiencing here due to the growth of the website or something else. I've definitely found myself a little less willing to scroll through the topics in the banking forum to write out lengthy answers and spend more time periodically checking other industry forums.

1. Logo
2. Way too much baby blue
3. Bananas are little too cute, stars would work
4. The sea background
5. The ad with the 'dress your own dolls' thing has to go, got busted for that already