WSO Podcast | E111: MBB to Private Equity and the Insanity of On-cycle PE Recruiting

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In this episode, member @perecruiting_throwaway shares his path out of a target university to a top role at a management consulting firm. We also get an inside look into what it was like recruiting for private equity during the crazy 2019 on-cycle recruiting process. From interviewing on a Thursday night from 8 pm until 1 am to starting again the next day at 7 am, listen to game theory applied in a real-life context and learn how he dealt with the split-second decisions that had significant career implications.

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WSO Podcast (Episode 111) Transcript:

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:06:46] Run, I'll get you access to the LBO modeling course we're releasing. So you'll be fine, you'll be fine. I mean, that's it's teachable, right? And especially coming from an engineering background like you came from where you're comfortable. Probably you'll once you get your bearings in the in excel and all that stuff, I'm sure you're doing some of it at your at your firm now, your consulting firm. But obviously there's a lot more PowerPoint. There's a lot more like, like you said, strategic structuring of problems and or industry kind of nuances versus looking at something as a pure math IRR and multiple in capital. Yeah, exactly. But it is different, but it's.

MBBtoPE: [00:07:27] But again, it's like, I think I do think it's, you know, in my case, that's what it was. But I can definitely see for other people, maybe banking is kind of more valuable and maybe the stuff in consulting comes naturally to them. Yeah. So I think that's an

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:07:38] Interesting that's an interesting debate. People who are more naturally. You know, inclined to be good at math and good with numbers, maybe would benefit more by going to the consulting side, whereas people who maybe are better at structuring problems in strategic, strategically thinking maybe benefit more by going to the more the technical banking side. It's interesting. I mean, I think if your ultimate goal is private equity, I think we should say that the more well-worn path is investment banking into private equity. However, I have interviewed plenty of people on this podcast and I know there's hundreds out there, if not thousands that have gone consulting private equity. It's totally doable when there's actually some funds that prefer

consultants over makers or have a mix. And so I think it's important for the listeners to know that if they don't go, if they don't go to investment banking, it's not over by any means to get become an investor, especially if you if you have kind of a long term vision, right? Yeah. So OK. So let's talk a little bit about all those internships. What did you those internships you did that kind of led you to that belief of like, Hey, I want to be be an investor, did you? I assume during the consulting interviews you weren't forthcoming with all of that information because you wanted to convey that you were excited about consulting. So. Is that something you were able to kind of somehow released or were you very guarded about that information? Yeah, you know,

MBBtoPE: [00:09:10] I definitely didn't say that I want it to be an investor, but it was actually I didn't find it that that difficult to be genuine in the interviews because, you know, the beauty with consulting is I think they do target a lot of people that kind of had my background where essentially it might have looked unclear what I wanted to do. And I think that's the value proposition for a lot of a lot of candidates is, you know, you can basically enter it from any single major. And you just need to be kind of naturally curious. So, you know, obviously filtered the kind of the desire for investing that part at that point. But I think it was it was relatively easy to just convey that I'm interested in what we do, at least from the first few years, and I don't think anyone cared or even felt the need to probe as to whether or not I actually want it to be a career consultant.

Patrick (CEO of WSO: [00:09:58] That's fair. That's right. And tell me a little bit about how you prepped for the actual consulting interviews because there are notorious for being difficult. Was it something where you were drilling with fellow classmates? How did you go about that? Yeah, yeah.

MBBtoPE: [00:10:14] I mean, I think drilling with classmates is kind of essential just to get down kind of the because there's some elements. I think when you're in an interview setting, you kind of have to have practice so that you don't just skip, right? So like the ability to kind of pause, not rush, like make sure you understand the question. Clearly, there's just kind of some kind of mechanical bits and pieces that you want to get down that I think even if you're the smartest guy in the world, you should do this a few times just to make sure you don't do that

Patrick (CEO of WSO)00:10:42] Or really don't want to be to be left brain frontal cortex thinking through it. You want it to be cerebellum, completely natural into your into your what do they call it, the reptile brain. So it's like, you're here. It's reflexes, you know, kind of how to structure the problem immediately or you have certain frameworks that you can you can Approach the case with without Having to, like, come up with it on the spot. I think that's the true value of drilling, right? Yeah. Tell me a little bit about. Like other preps. Was there anything else you did, so you obviously were drilling with cases, I assume you just got some online. Was there anything else you did that you felt like it was important to performing well in the interviews? Or do you struggle with the interviews initially and then kind of get better? How did how did that all work out for you?

MBBtoPE: [00:11:29] Yeah, you know, I think again, it's probably, you know, it comes down to the person, right? I mean, in my own case, this is going to sound bizarre, but it's actually very much true. I actually think my greatest. I don't know about difficulty, but the thing I had to just spend the most time on was relearning my times tables literally like I'm.I am good at math, but I just did not remember my timetables. So I literally had to drill those to make sure I could just do basic, basic math. And I had to kind of practice doing it in front of people to write like, you know, some people can do shortcuts. But I I didn't write. I would literally write out like, OK, if it was like, you know, eighty seven times twenty four, I would write that out and I would like say out loud every step as I was doing it just methodically. And that way I learned not to make mistakes. So, you know, that was that was probably just a little thing you don't think about, but it's very important because it's like what they're looking for is kind of your ability to handle pressure and just kind of methodically go through something. And at the end of the day, like if you're if you're marginally curious and somewhat creative and you have a baseline level of intelligence, it's not it's not like these things are not that difficult. I think a lot of it you're testing is not just your intelligence, but your ability to kind of do it in a consulting setting. And so that comes down to again, the preparation. It just allows you then to actually use your brain and not be worrying about little things, right? So once you kind of practice that, then you can start thinking, OK, OK, like, I've got my bases covered. Let me actually now think about the interesting problem that's been posed and not worry about the mental math associated with it or, you know, have a pause too long. You know, when this guy asked me the question, you know, like you stupid stuff like that?

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:13:08] Yeah, I agree. I think this applies to any sort of interview setting where if you also drilled on your own stories and you know exactly what you want to say and the points you want to hit, it makes it so much easier for when they interrupt or they kind of take it a different direction. You're not. You kind of know other stories you can pull from. You have a whole wealth of kind of things you can pull on if you've interviewed a lot and you don't get thrown off, like if you get interrupted or taken in a different direction, you can really just be curious and have a conversation and enjoy it. Rather than being like this intense hot seat kind of moment, I always implore people like you studied our interview courses. People buy them and they'll go straight to the technical interview prep and they'll just like, go through there and make sure they know all the technical questions and all the answers. And they think, OK, I'm good now, and it makes them at ease. But that's not even close to what they need to do. It's so much more about being able to establish a connection with the person across from you being confident right and being and having that having that thing, you feel like you. Coming from an engineering background, did you feel like once you knew your times tables, you were able to kind of establish that connection with people? Are you naturally good like that or is it something that took some practice?

MBBtoPE: [00:14:27] Well, I think actually honesty comes back to the thing I was saying earlier where, you know, I think now I'm a lot better at it just because I've done this job for a while at this point. But no, actually, I think that was probably I think I probably came across more nervous and just not really sure of what to expect because this was just very new for me. And I don't think just kind of the situation was something I was familiar with. So, you know, in some parts that were probably not one of my strengths, but I was like, I said, I think the practice allowed me then to kind of stop worrying so much and just kind of just get to know everyone on an individual level. And now for me, it's like it's like table stakes, right? It's like every day. In some sense, I have to meet some new person and get to know them and make some sort of small talk. And it's something, you know, it's like a skill I picked up definitely wasn't as natural back then. But at the same time, like after a couple iterations of it, I at least realized that, OK, you know, this isn't this isn't some terrifying ordeal. This is someone who's like two or three years older than me, at least in the first rounds. Like, he's not looking for anything other than just to, like, get through his day and maybe have a beer afterwards and just relax, right? So he's just reminding myself that these were people and that there was actually nothing to worry about that much. Definitely kind of helped me quite a bit in the beginning.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:15:45] Yeah, I think that mindset is so critical. So you're so you're kind of going through this where you give me multiple offers where wherever you where you ended up, was that your only offer? Tell me a little bit about how that whole end was it your senior year that you got it? Because I know you had other internships. I think none of which were in consulting.

MBBtoPE: [00:16:06] Yeah, that's correct, yeah, so I just did a full time recruiting, didn't do internships, and yeah, so I ended up just with one offer. You know, I think like anything in L.A. I talk about, there's more to be because he's even more uncertain, but you can never really guarantee anything. There's just always some amount of luck. And so, you know, just even I didn't even get an interview for one of the three. And another friend I know who was extremely accomplished, like ended up being American valedictorian at some point or at the end of it. But anyways, he also just didn't get an interview from the same firm, right? And sometimes it's just it's difficult to understand why or how you do or don't get interviews, even if you have network so. So in kind of down there, you know you're already down to two out of the three, you know, got to the final round and one of them and I was lucky enough to secure an offer from that point.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:16:56] Were you were you only applying to the top consulting firms and did you have a backup plan if you didn't get that, offer your senior year?

MBBtoPE: [00:17:06] So, no, I applied to other firms as well. I had I had kind of like some experience with like a boutique consulting firm, like a part time role. Basically, once I realized that I was pivoting away from engineering and kind of took a shotgun approach and tried to get as many experiences and kind of internships or part time gigs as I could just to really see what was out there. So I had a bit of context into kind of what consulting was at least and kind of how it stacked up just in the landscape of recruiting. But I think like for recruiting, I kind of learned that, you know, it was really MBB or bust, unfortunately. So, you know, luckily, luckily not complete bust.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:17:46] Not completely. But they did interview someone recently who was non MBB actually titled it non MBP because it was so rare.

MBBtoPE: [00:17:53] Yeah, I saw that, actually.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:17:55] But yeah, I agree with you. I mean, to say that, oh yeah, you can get to private equity from a non top consulting where it's incredibly difficult.

MBBtoPE: [00:18:04] So, yeah, so to answer your question, honestly, if I hadn't, if I hadn't gotten an offer, I don't know what I would have done. It might not have been consulting. I might have. Honestly, I don't know. I would probably would have kind of gone back to the drawing board and thought, OK, how do I keep my options open? Maybe I would have deferred for a year or maybe even done like a PhD or something? I don't know. Like it would have been. It would have been like, I think, kind of a stepwise

process that I went through it like, Okay, like this door is closed. How do I keep my options open?

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:18:29] Ok, that's fair. It's a very logical way to approach it. So tell me a little bit about. So your time now at MBB? Tell me a little bit about. You know, what's what has that been like, has it? It sounds like you've developed some softer skills. Do you feel like any hard skills you developed any hard skills, any sort of kind of strategic thinking at all? Or would you lump that into the soft skills as well? Being an engineer, you're right.

MBBtoPE: [00:18:58] Yeah, you know, I mean, I almost hesitate to when I think of banking, I think it was like a skill set that you develop

MBBtoPE: [00:19:05] And especially because, you know, talking to friends have now been through it. They what they kind of describe, at least I have an end of like three or four at this point. It kind of a universal theme that they describe, at least was after the first year, they really felt like they had kind of plateaued in a way like the first year was was just an enormous learning curve. They learned so much, but kind of after after the first several months, they felt like in some ways they were kind of doing the same thing over and over again in some ways, kind of being the monkey that we make fun of on the site. Hmm. So I think but when I think of banking, I think of like, actual, tangible, almost almost skill set you can develop with consulting. I wouldn't. Some people might say it's a broader skill set, but I wouldn't even compare it to a skill set. I just think it's just so variable. And really, what you're getting is just exposure to like an incredibly wide array of situations. And even after a few years, like one person's experience is very likely to be very different from another person's experience, even if they're at the same firm.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:19:58] So you've recruited for private equity and you ended up getting an offer? Can you talk to me a little bit about that whole process and what that was like?

MBBtoPE: [00:20:07] Yeah, totally. And like you said earlier, Patrick, you know, of course, it's the case, I think statistically that certainly more bankers end up going to pee. I think the one thing the first thing I want to say at a high level is I think it's very much the case, obviously, like I think that your probability of success is generally higher from banking to consulting. The one thing that I do think is a misconception, though, that I definitely realize going through the process is there's a difference between kind of the overall number of people and then the actual probability of success, because I think It's very easy just to look at the placements, but no one really ever knows the denominator, and there's just a lot less interest coming even at the top from the top three firms. So I actually found that that the experience wasn't as much of a longshot. There was a lot more legwork that absolutely you had to do on your own because you're not surrounded by people who are also recruiting and you have to, I think I think, just try more to make sure you get the right materials, try to make sure you're doing the right networking and doing the right reach outs. But from what I could see coming from MBB, I don't think the I think the odds of success were

A lot higher than I kind of initially anticipated. So that's kind of the first thing I would say is I think there might be a misconception in terms of maybe some middle market bank is still you're still going to have better odds. And if you're coming from boeing or McKinsey. And I think all else being equal, if you do the same legwork, you have actually a relatively comparable chance because at the end of the day, right, like you just need to get interviews and you need to make sure that you have the opportunities. And I knew almost no candidates who had put in all the legwork and were unable to secure interviews. In fact, most of the time it's like banking, where even though the

universe of firms that consider consultants is smaller, you still end up with way more interviews and you have time for during the long cycle process. So I found actually when everything kind of came pushed to shove, you know, everyone, everyone kind of had the same experience in on cycle where it was just chaotic for everybody and everyone only had maybe time for four, three, maybe four interviews. And you just kind of had to play the game as best as you could and pick the firms that you thought you had the best chance at

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:22:20] Succeeding at. Let's talk about that on cycle recruiting process a little bit and specifically recruiters, because I think sometimes recruiters are just like, have the blinders on for banking bank banking. Were you able to kind of get through to them with your background? That was pretty impressive to have them get you in certain processes or only certain a certain amount, certain recruiters and others not.

MBBtoPE: [00:22:43] Yeah, you know, it's actually it's a lot more standardized than I think people give it credit for. So basically there is, you know, if you think of the whole universe of PE firms, there is like a strict subset that hire consultants and or bankers. I think there's actually a couple of firms that only hire consultants. And generally there's some firms that are kind of open to both. Mm hmm. So, you know, I would say it's not impossible to go outside of those consulting friendly firms if you're a consultant, but it's extremely difficult. And frankly, I don't recommend it because it's kind of like, why? Right? Like at first, you know, I was even thinking like, Oh, you know, maybe I want to keep my options open as much as possible. But that's before I realized that you only end up having the opportunity to interview at a finite number of firms. And these are fantastic firms. You know, there are a lot of them are upper middle market firms, even some mega funds. And you know, and one of the things I actually found and I really thought was funny when I kind of went through it is when I was networking. I realized even if I was a banker, I probably would have ended up targeting those firms anyway, because I found, for whatever reason, the firms that had a consulting kind of heritage tended to be have a lot better of a culture and tended to just kind of align with what I kind of tended to resonate with the work that I'd rather do in terms of how they talked about it and how the people just generally kind of felt during our chats. So, you know, I would highly encourage all consultants to kind of, you know, not try to aim for the cars of the world because even if you were that like one in a million, you're going to be kind of trying to fit a mold that you're not right. They're expecting you to be a banker. And why not go to a firm that actually appreciates your skill set? So that's kind of my two cents on that. But once you know, once you've looked at that universe, there's probably like 15 to 20 firms that'll give you a look if you're from MBIE. And at that point, the process actually looks quite similar to banking, where, you know, the universe is smaller, but there's actually a lot fewer people like I said. So I think the supply and demand kind of comes out to be relatively equivalent and it's just a function of, you know, landing those interviews for on cycle.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:24:48] Interesting. Tell me a little bit about the legwork you

put in before on cycle even hit. Did you were you reaching out to a lot of people networking beforehand? Was it or is it just did it surprise you? The timing? Because I know it was early every year, it's earlier and earlier, it seems. Yeah.

MBBtoPE: [00:25:04] You know, I think it's so let me first off say that like the

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:25:09] That can I just explain to the list? Can I explain to the listeners who don't know this on cycle recruiting is typically done where they recruit you for a job that's almost two years out or a year and nine months out? Now if we're talking twenty. So in other words, for investment banking analyst, oftentimes they'll be recruiting for a job right after they get out of training. And for consultants, it's typically one or two years, sometimes two years after they've joined the firm. They will be they'll be recruited. So but it can be for an offer that's so far away in the future. So sometimes you have some legwork or you have a chance to do legwork, but other times it's like. Right on you right away. So that's just for the listeners that don't know what on psychology, recruiting is just a little primary there.

MBBtoPE: [00:26:02] Yeah, and you bring up a good point that I forgot to mention. I think the only other difference people should be aware of is generally over 80 percent or even 90. If I had to guess percent of consultants and successfully place generally do so in their second year. But I think it's I don't think it's because the likelihood is actually that much different, right? If you're if you're fully prepared as a first year and you start early. I think it's actually, you know, you're going to be able to get looks from the majority of the firms anyway. I don't think there's necessarily a strong bias. But the reason that bifurcation happens is, well, naturally, I think the biggest reason is a lot of consultants actually just literally start after the cycle happens at this point. So, you know, you can't really interview people on the job yet. And but also, I think, you know, just generally you're getting you're selecting for people that aren't really as gung ho as this early about P and might need that year to figure out what it is they want to do. So when you kind of combine those two factors, generally you're looking at second year as a recruit. But it's by no means like a prerequisite. You can definitely you can definitely still approach it like a banker would and kind of try to recruit right out of the gates.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:27:07] Got it. So how would you, you know, in terms of like prepping for before on cycle happens, whether it's your first or second year, how would you prep for that? Did you do any legwork kind of leading up to telling cycle knowing it was coming?

MBBtoPE: [00:27:20] Yeah, you know, I had the privilege of knowing a few people who had gone through with the prior year and kind of walked me through their experience. So in a way, I think I was mentally kind of trying to get ready for it for several months leading into it. You know, everyone kind of had the expectation that it's probably going to be a couple of months even earlier than it was the prior year. Just because that's what the trend looks like. Go by site has a pretty good graph showing the time that on cycles kick off over time. And, you know, at least in the last few years, you kind of see this kind of steady, steady, you know? The crawl towards the actual start date of the of the banking analysts,

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:27:57] They think in the future, what is it going to be? This year, let's make a prediction

MBBtoPE: [00:28:03] That's actually really that's like key Patrick, because, you know, I think in some ways, even though I have the most recent experience with on cycle, you know, it being 2019, I think in some ways my experience might actually be only as relevant as someone from maybe even 2015, because I think this might be the year that kind of finally breaks the camel's back and starts like a new trend. I mean, the whole thing is fascinating, right? It's like it's just this game theory sandbox experiment of like hyper competitive, hyper capitalistic people competing over scarce resource. So it's fascinating to see this game theory play out over time. And right now, I just literally can't imagine that we're going to be able to hit September or even earlier. And so I imagine that that's going to start like a whole new trend. So no one knows what's going to happen. But whatever does happen this year, I would think, would kind of influence then what's going to happen in subsequent years and kind of start a new chapter in this whole cycle saga.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:28:54] So for the record, I'm going to make a prediction. For the record, it's what may 18th today. I am predicting that on cycle happens this year. Right after July 4th.

MBBtoPE: [00:29:10] You're kidding.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:29:14] No, no. And it's going to be virtual and people are going to be getting offers virtually. Since everyone said that's my prediction, that's my prediction, just because they're so aggressive, there's no they already know the kids coming, I feel like they already know the kids that are coming in. Hello, maybe not, maybe July's a little aggressive, I'll change it, I'll say august, I'll say mid-August.

MBBtoPE: [00:29:39] I mean, you could be right. I just figured that with COVID and people getting their start dates pushed back and doing remote starts, it seems impossible to me to think of on cycle happening.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:29:49] But you know what? It's a Zoom link away. Just a Zoom link away, man.

MBBtoPE: [00:29:54] You're right. Maybe. Maybe this will actually accelerate the trend.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:29:57] Yeah, part of me thinks like, Well, if they're not going to be able to meet anyways, why not just grab them now if they can't do the coffee chats and all that stuff start like, Oh, let's just start some informational chats. Why don't you get to know our firm? And then all of a sudden they're like, except you don't accept that it only takes one. Fun to do that. And then that person tells their friend, and then, boom, they're off to the races. So that's why I think it's just the dynamics just always lead to it running earlier I was joking with, I think of a reporter from. The Business Insider, when they always ask me, like, what do you think this year and I'm like, Well, I'm like the natural. The earliest they could go is right. After somebody gets their full time offer junior year, they could give them an offer for three and a half years later for four years later. I mean, that's the absolute earliest, right? If you take it to the maximum. But well,

MBBtoPE: [00:30:52] I guess the other would be if you just like, cut out associate recruiting entirely and you just go for analysts.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:30:57] Yeah, they start opening it. More analysts program that's already started happening a little bit here and there, but it's not widespread yet.

MBBtoPE: [00:31:04] I don't think we're going to lose associate recruiting because I think I mean, I think it's actually so valuable to have a couple of years of doing something different before you potentially specialize in your whole career. But you know, I could be wrong. We'll see.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:31:16] We'll see how it evolves. It'll be fun to watch either way. Not necessarily fun to prepare for. So I'm sorry for all the monkeys out there that have to get ready. So, OK, so you're. You're kind of in terms of prepping from consulting, you kind of did you have the universe set? Is there a set, did you? It's pretty well known, I guess, which private equity funds take consultants. You can do a LinkedIn search or whatnot or, you know, certain types of. Fines, obviously are the obvious ones, but is there is there something you did kind of leading up like a lot of networking, anything like that or spoke to certain recruiters?

MBBtoPE: [00:31:55] Yeah, yeah. So I'll run through, I guess, kind of like the year leading up to it. First, I'll say that there's a there's a great post by a user like MBB, MBB

and his basically his experience doing what I did the prior year. So 2018 coming as a consultant and I think he has a list of the consulting friendly firms. But yeah, it's pretty well known. I think it should be on this website. Like even just like a quick search. Like I said, the universe is about 15 to 20 that really that are kind of top upper middle market such megaphone firms that are generally kind of competing after the same consultant talent pool. And so, you know, in terms of preparation. Yeah. So I was lucky to know people that kind of had gone through it and they kind of walking through and gave me some heads up. So I had some vague expectation as much as I could of what

was going in. And I think mentally try to try to be preparing myself and thinking that I'm going to be doing this. So to try to just be as prepared as possible for when it would kick off. Let me say that like so given that it's still absolutely blew my mind how utterly insane and just incredulous the entire process is. I mean, tell me about it.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:33:08] Kick off, tell me about it. So, yeah, I mean, you've got an email from what a recruiter saying you have to interview this person at one talk with these people at one a.m. like, what was it like?

MBBtoPE: [00:33:17] I mean, it's just it's funny because I thought I was being as prepared as I could, and there's just nothing that actually prepares you. So the morning of, you know, no one knows what's happening. There was nobody that thought it was going to kick off. And then suddenly I get a text from a friend saying, Oh, I heard they

might be interviewing. And so there's like chats for kind of a few hours on at that point, like, what's happening? Would this be the start? You know, at this point, I would say, like when everyone woke up that morning, absolutely nobody thought it was going to kick off that weekend. I mean, it was already like people had a sense of pride going to be moved up, maybe to like the following week. If you were, like, going to be really aggressive, you just get to this point. It was still early September and everyone's pricing in right, like some, some earlier date than what it was last year, but somehow it always managed to surprise everyone. So like that morning, literally no one thought was going to kick off. And then all these whispers start happening and they just start spiralling out of control. And I literally remember I suddenly got this like ad hoc coffee chat from a firm that I was networking with. And I mentioned it to another firm that I was like, hey, like, you guys know what's happening? I was talking to this firm, and it seems like this process might be ramping up. And then I guess they interpreted that as a potential interview. So they told their headhunting firm. So I got a call from the headhunter freaking out like, Oh my god, did you just get an interview? And it's just like, everyone's trying to figure out what's happening?

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:34:38] Yeah. So everyone just goes,

MBBtoPE: [00:34:40] Yeah, the loop actually closed on me, which was fascinating, and it was like funny. Seeing the gossip like turn around, I was like, No, no, no. I was

literally just like, like just had like a coffee chat. And this was that day. And so then everyone kind of settle down again, but you could tell there was just intensity. And then three hours later it did go and suddenly I got, Yeah,

Patrick (CEO of WSO: [00:34:57] Because there's one. There's all the cases. Once you have that, once you've rattled the cage a little bit, it's like everyone's jumpy and they're like, We just got to go, just go now.

MBBtoPE: [00:35:06] Exactly. So I mean, literally like, like three hours later, I get an email like Go Interview in 25 minutes. And so, like, you had to just go to a

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:35:16] Go to some offices right away and start the process.

MBBtoPE: [00:35:20] Yeah, exactly. I mean, and then everyone's just kind of suddenly bolts, you know, leaves work. This was this was Thursday night. And then I think the process for most firms in earnest probably began Friday morning. First thing

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:35:32] Where they. I mean, at a consulting firm, do they understand this process? Like, were they forgiving? If you just what if you were on a project and you had a deliverable that next morning?

MBBtoPE: [00:35:42] So I did. Actually, I was up. I really didn't sleep at night. You know, after the Thursday night interview, I was up late kind of working on some stuff and telling them my manager like, Sorry, man, I'm not going to be in tomorrow. Yeah. So it's then, you know, the interviews were starting at like 7:00 a.m. in earnest. It was, I mean, I literally did not sleep. I think I might have gotten maybe like 30 minutes in total, but there's so much adrenaline to why?

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:36:08] Because you were you were. You basically had the interview Thursday night. What time did you start that and what time did you get out?

MBBtoPE: [00:36:17] 8:00 I think I got out around 12:30 one that morning was clear there were kind of throwing me out. So, you know, just throwing you out

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:36:24] Because you didn't you didn't get the offer or

MBBtoPE: [00:36:27] Yeah, yeah. I think that that particular I think most firms when they started Thursday night, they were started giving out a few at like maybe one or two a.m. in the morning. So I made it pretty far, but ended up not, I don't think I mean, it's kind of the final rounds. They, you know, they told me, you know, it's clear when they're throwing you out, they say, like the headhunter will contact you, but you kind of have to know that, you know, the next one,

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:36:48] You know, you know that if you're not getting the offer right there, that it's done.

MBBtoPE: [00:36:51] Yeah, exactly. So then you just have to kind of go home and kind of schedule the next day and try to get some sleep. Why didn't you? Why didn't you sleep? Just because I mean, everything was starting at 7:00. Like I said, I was also had some. I had some work that I had built up, but I had to get done before I was able to really just completely ignore it for the following day. And then honestly, even if I tried to sleep immediately, I don't think I would have been successful. There was just too much adrenaline, too much nerves.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:37:17] Were you like going through the interview in your head basically all night? Like, what did I do wrong? What could I have done better?

MBBtoPE: [00:37:23] Not even I was just so already so focused on the next day. And so this is this is the point. I think that's really, you know, can't be understated to everyone, is you want to be as prepared and you want to think this through as much as you can because when it hits, it's like that thing I was describing in the interview where, you know, maybe you kind of freeze up and you're you don't really know what to do and you kind of it's good. If you practice, you have some muscle memory. It's like this. Sometimes a thousand like you'll have to make split second decisions that have like wide ranging and long lasting impacts in your career. So let me give you an example like these firms. It's game theory, not only with other firms, with the candidates themselves. And so if you're if you're like a Blackstone, maybe you'll want to hold your top 20 candidates knowing you're only going to give 10 of them offers, but you want the other 10 because they're still fantastic candidates and you don't want them to go elsewhere. So if you're one of those candidates, you might be getting held up in the lobby and you're going to have to make a decision. Do I just walk out of this firm? You're going to have to evaluate because at some point you're going to miss other interviews if you stay there long enough. And so you kind of have to read them and figure out what's your probability of success. And I mean, that happened to me on Friday. I was I was at a firm and they were like kind of equivocating us whether or not I was going to move on. They were kind of just keeping me there. And at some point I had to stand up and say, All right, guys, like, I'm on to the next one, and I'm so lucky I did that because the firm I ended up going to was the firm I ended up signing up. Following that, and if I had stayed. Odds are that I probably would have struck out and have gone to off cycle recruiting.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:38:50] Why do you think you would have struck out just because you weren't getting a really strong sense or they just weren't they had? Or they have more of a fund that typically hired a blend?

MBBtoPE: [00:39:00] A little bit of both, yeah, but I was just like, I didn't get a strong sense,I know I hadn't performed as well as I could have in the beginning. And so, you know, it was it was clear that some of the

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:39:09] How were you? How are you? How are you evaluating yourself to know that? Because I feel like it's obvious if you completely bomb, just get out of there and go to the next one. But how were you evaluating yourself if you did OK? Like was it? Was it just more like your delivery on things? Or was it more like walking through a case and how you walk through a modeling test? What were they putting you through that kind of gave you that sense?

MBBtoPE: [00:39:31] Yeah. So for this one, I think I knew I didn't. I didn't finish the model in time, so it was pretty clear that I had done an OK recovery. And I think what I did was all right, but it definitely wasn't perfect work. So I mean, immediately they were right. You know, you're not going to be a tough candidate right off the bat. And I think I recovered, OK, which is why they didn't throw me out immediately, but I still knew I was in that kind of middle ground limbo.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:39:54] So that's interesting. So you didn't finish them. So like when you're walking through the model after they force you to just basically walk through it with them. Yeah, exactly like your recovery was good, but then you immediately were thinking, hmm, that's not going to put someone's going to there's going to be enough people acing it.

MBBtoPE: [00:40:10] Yeah, exactly. I mean, I didn't I didn't finish the model, right? In some senses, I think there could be a nail in the coffin. You know, in some people's minds, how much

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:40:17] Time do they give you and how detailed was it?

MBBtoPE: [00:40:21] I think it varies a lot for different for different firms. Some firms have an hour. Some firms have a three hour model. It's totally variable. I will say coming well, coming back to your question also like how are prepared because for the consulting point as well? Yeah. You know, I did I did basically as much preparation as I could both on the banking and the consulting side. And I highly recommend that for everyone because so, you know, the Wall Street racist stuff? Absolutely. I think it's super helpful, especially for consultants to get those kind of those modeling skills down and then kind of simultaneously for the bankers, especially, I think

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:40:56] We have a new LBO modeling course coming out to which we're going to pack it. It's going to be awesome. There you go. So yeah, for the consultants out there that want even more reps or just a really robust model and kind of really understand the framework of that LBO, if you go through that, you can be sure that's my little plug. So I keep going.

MBBtoPE: [00:41:13] Yeah, but no, but I think what's actually really key here to highlight is so, there's  kind of almost two different kinds of interviews, right? There's kind of the traditional banking interview and then a consultants. A lot of the times the headhunters will be not even telling the consultants to worry that much about modeling because the consultants can have their own interviews. It's a lot more kind of case study focused. You talk a little bit more about an investment rather than focusing on the details of the particular Excel sales that you filled in, right? But, you know, so there's  resources on practicing both of those, as you can imagine, right consultants will tend to focus more on the latter and makers on the former. But I did kind of as much prep on both fronts as I could, and I highly, highly recommend that. I mean, I'm not saying that consultants need to become as good at as a banker, as building a three hour model. Far from it. But what I think is, is this by at least learning and doing some basic modeling on my own, I think it really helps you on the consulting interviews because then the things you're talking about, you actually can ground them and you know how they're going to flow through. And similarly, for the bankers, you know, I think one of the biggest kind of leaders that immediately kick bankers out is sure they could. They could kind of make the model, but then they weren't able to kind of talk about it and then frame it in terms of an investment. And they weren't able to sound like an investor in the way that they kind of were then digesting and discussing it after the fact.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:31]  About the timing. So OK. Seven a.m. You're out there at the first place for how long?

MBBtoPE: [00:42:37] Two hours or yeah, two, two and a half.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:42:40] How do you even know you have other ones lined up? Are you're looking at your phone and like, they're like, Hey, we have this one here, go. And so, you know, you know, if you need, if you have that opening or not.

MBBtoPE: [00:42:50] Yeah. So they were all I booked them all kind of the prior night, like 11 11 p.m.

Patrick (CEO of WSO)

MBBtoPE: [00:42:57] Three, four, three, I ended up not getting to the third one. So basically the first one I struck out was the one I walked out of. The second one was the one where I got lucky and I didn't even get to the third one.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:43:08] And so if you had, let's say, it had gone today, it was kind of Thursday night. And then let's say that Friday all day had not worked out. Would there have been more on Saturday or do you feel like you would have just been like done by the end of day Friday? You're into Saturday morning. Um, I do know

MBBtoPE: [00:43:30] That there were there were definitely still doing interviews on Saturday, even beyond kind of my maybe more unique case. But it was really kind of starting to peter out. Maybe these were like a top candidate from one firm and they just got cut because they were like the last candidate and they didn't get the offer. So maybe then they turn to another firm that recognizes they were top candidate and give them a shot. But I mean, at this point, like the vast majority of the initial crop I think has gone through on Friday, and I only saw it's kind of a trickle starting Saturday. So I think I do think it tends to kind of bleed in to the following week, and some people actually have it like a full week long process. Yeah, but for the most part, at least, the firm I know that I signed, they were really done by Sunday.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:44:15] Wow. Yeah, that's two or three days, typically. And do you feel like looking back when you went into that Thursday night one, was that helpful to kind of get that rep in? Or did you feel like the sleep deprivation that preceded in the exhaustion was actually more harmful for your Friday performance?

MBBtoPE: [00:44:34] I mean, that's a great question, right? And this is this is exactly what I'm talking about when I when I kind of, you know, mean you need to think through this stuff because it's hard to make these decisions at the moment. I wasn't really sure. I mean, I think going and getting going was it was a good call. I think probably what would have been a more a more interesting trade off that I wasn't really sure of is then I had to make a call. Then at 1:00 in the morning when I was talking to Headhunters, do I schedule? Do I start off immediately at seven a.m. and give myself potentially an extra interview? But at the same time, sleep deprived myself. And that's a hard trade off, right? And it's just like all sorts of these little difficult, difficult splits. I think that's a yes.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:45:14] I think that's a yes, because that extra swing is pretty valuable, I think.

MBBtoPE: [00:45:18] And I don't know. I mean, in my case, honestly, if

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:45:21] I almost hurt you.

MBBtoPE: [00:45:22] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I literally like literally wasn't able to speak English by the end of it. I mean, I'm obviously not trained like a banker. So think you didn't have this week, you didn't

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:45:33] Have any coffee?

MBBtoPE:  [00:45:35] I mean, anyway, so I think I need sleep more than most people. But again, it just there's just all sorts of stuff and there's like none of this, like, no one's really ever prepared for this. Talk to

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:45:44] Me about the game theory of knowing kind of

where you're at on the spectrum of candidates in terms of attractiveness. So for example, you said it's not just game theory on the firm side, it's game theory on the candidate side because if a firm is a top fund. And you're say, at a middle market bank that doesn't have the brand, but they're bringing you in anyways or your and let's say you did, you did really well. Is it worth it to eat up your whole Friday or your whole day? They're trying to hang on versus going to a fund that maybe isn't as well known, maybe not a mega fund. Maybe it's, you know, it's still great, could still be an amazing fund, but just doesn't have the brand name or whatnot. What would you say to people like that? Is it important to kind of be able to rank yourself and be realistic? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

MBBtoPE: [00:46:34] I think that comes also down right to doing as much legwork as you can. A lot of that comes from networking. And actually, I really can't undervalue the networking piece as well because it helps you get to know these firms and just there's so much is intangible stuff you can even just pick up from the way people talk to you, the way they talk about your background during an initial call, and you learn it's very bidirectional, right? It obviously helps you get it in some regards. It helps you get the interview, but it also really helps you figure out how to differentiate these firms because I think I think going in there's very little information online. It's very difficult for people to have a preconceived notion of P from A versus B from B, especially when they're on a similar size bracket. But that's essential, right? Essential to doing exactly what you said to be able to kind of contextualize how you kind of stack up in this process. And especially then right, it's because almost all candidates end up having the opportunity to interview at more places and they have time for. It's really important for

then how you're kind of figure out what schedule that you put together for yourself. So if you're a consultant, then for some reason Blackstone decided to give you an interview.

You know, that's great, but you might want to think about it. That's really a good decision versus maybe the consultant friendly offer middle market firm that you have to make, that you have to kind of pick over it knowing that your odds are going to be significantly higher at that firm.

Patrick (CEO of WSO)00:47:49] Hmm. Yeah, it's important. It's a really important thought exercise. I think in the moment, you don't want to get kind of tempted

to take necessarily the biggest brand. You should really try to go for the one that's the best fit for you. So you can really going to be genuine in the interview really kind of communicate that and why you're there.

MBBtoPE: [00:48:11] Yeah, absolutely, I think I think the ability to be genuine. Just

from having all these prior conversations was super, super helpful on my end,

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:48:20] For sure. Ok. Anything else before I know this was this one on a little longer than expected, but I love I always love hearing the war stories of these, of these crazy, crazy on cycle processes. So it sounded it obviously worked out for you. You came back the next morning. How many other how many more interviews did you do the next morning?

MBBtoPE: [00:48:41] No, that morning it was kind of the final round, so it was just with kind of the top people I need to get by. So it was just it was just three, and I hit it hard off the off the bat and within two hours, you know, I gave give me the offer.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:48:56] So yeah, and it was an easy at that point. It's an easy yes. Yeah, right? Oh yeah, it was

MBBtoPE: [00:49:02] Very easy for me. Yeah, yeah. And I'm really glad I did it too, because honestly, it was another one of those things. They kind of gave me the option to go to either go to bed or come back or kind of continue on that night. And I chose to go to bed and you know what I mean? It's like those little those little things, I think made the difference.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:49:19] It's interesting. I think if you were a banker, you probably would have thought it was a test or something like and stayed and just suffered through it. I don't know. It's interesting. Maybe at a consulting friendly shop, they're not as the harder factors in the strong there.

MBBtoPE: [00:49:35] Yeah, I mean, I definitely felt that way in networking in the consulting firms were a lot nicer. Interesting.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:49:41] Well, I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing all this. Anything else you'd like to share about just the process in general that you think would be helpful to students out there to bankers or consultants? Yeah, I mean, so

MBBtoPE: [00:49:54] Well, I'll say, you know again, Patrick, thank you for having me. You know, I am really happy to do this because this one of the things you really do realize an on cycle especially is just how opaque and how insular this industry is. And you know, to the extent that I can help give some people like information on what this is like and hopefully help some people through this process, I really do think it does a great service to the industry by kind of helping to sustain the meritocracy that we all want to believe in. So, you know, I think this is this I don't know when you started this website, it was like 2008. Is that right?

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:50:27] Oh, six, actually.

MBBtoPE: [00:50:29] Oh, six, OK. So like, I know, I know it helped. It helped me a ton through it. And I come from a relatively kind of fortunate background, and I can only imagine like how much good this is done in terms of people that are kind of totally from outside the quintessential spectrum. So, you know, I still think it's awesome.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:50:44] I still think it's a huge problem, especially with accelerated recruiting. Now, I think it's even more pronounced that if you don't know, you just don't know and you can miss out on the entire. And I think CEO does some great work with the underrepresented minorities, but I think it's still a huge there's just a huge gap in just a base knowledge coming out of high school. And I say coming out school, coming out of high school because my time's like if you're a freshman and you know where you want to go, like whether that's consulting or banking, it's a huge advantage. Huge advantage because you can start the legwork of networking. I mean, it's one of my mentees. She's a freshman at Fordham and like, she's going to have no problem because she's just been she's going now. She's starting now and she's going to. She already has an internship lined up. She's done. She's going to get all the offers and everything because she's just knows the process. She knows the game and I've coached her up on that. But it's really about, do you know it or not? Yeah, if you don't, then you wake up junior year thinking, OK, so what do I want from my full time job in a year? And nope, too late. Sorry, everything's done. Everything's done. They've all of a sudden you think banking or even consulting is not. It's not exactly. They do leave open some full time spots more than more than banking does, but it's still tough.

MBBtoPE: [00:51:55] Yeah, well, I hope then this was a couple for couple for some people, especially if they're thinking about the consulting path. So it's real, it's real. I think it's understated. But you know, at the same time, if you are gung ho for P,Banking might be the right path. So cool.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:52:11] Well, I appreciate all of your wisdom. Thank you for sharing the fun stories. And yeah, we'll be in touch.

MBBtoPE: [00:52:17] It was super fun, Patrick. Thank you.

Patrick (CEO of WSO) [00:52:19] And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis dot com. And till next time.