Monkey to Millions | Grace (Session 5) - Hospitalized but now Back At It - Jan 31, 2020
About
In this episode, we learn that Grace was hospitalized the prior week but has since recovered and is doing well again. She's staying up to date with her school work and finished her first semester with a 3.9 GPA. Listen to how I shift the priorities for her to try and make sure she's setting herself up for success come this summer and some specific tactics on how frequently to follow up with contacts she's established during networking.
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WSO Podcast (Episode 5) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:04] Well. Hello and welcome, I'm Patrick Curtis, chief monkey of Wall Street Oasis, and this is monkey to millions. A show where you get a front row seat as I mentor young students and professionals to try and help them break into their dream jobs in the first cohort. You'll meet four students, all preparing for intense job interviews while trying to also balance a personal life and schoolwork. The goal of this show is to shine a light on the struggles of trying to break into competitive positions with a non-traditional background and to give you a roadmap for your own success. My hope is that as you get to know these four impressive students, you're inspired to dream big. Remember, these are real people, and this is their true story. Let's get to it. In this episode, we learned that Grace was hospitalized the prior week, but has since recovered and is doing well again. She's staying up to date with her schoolwork and finished her first semester with a three-point nine GPA. Listen to how I shift the priorities for her to try and make sure she's setting herself up for success come this summer, and also some specific tactics on how frequently to follow up with contacts she's established during networking. But first hear from grace over the previous few weeks leading up to this session. So this is my first week back at school from winter break, the first week of classes, and also my first week. Our first real official week, I guess, at my internship. So I just got back from the office now. And in addition, I've been sending a lot more LinkedIn invites, as you suggested. And so I've been getting a very considerable amount of response, which has been good. And overall, my time's very full right now, especially with the internship. So every minute is scheduled and busy, but it's been good, very productive and already getting a lot done. So nothing too new this week. I was actually hospitalized for a few days last week, so that put me a little bit behind. I didn't get as much accomplished last week as I had originally hoped, but this week is just going to be to kind of catch up, get back to where I want to be. I'm also involved on a team for a pitch competition run by the hedge fund point seventy two, and all of those materials are due the end of this week. So a big deadline, but overall just catching up this week and getting back on track. All right, Grace, you're back at school and kind of a thing. Hopefully, you're feeling better. Yes. And yeah, it'd be great if you could just give me an update in terms of what's been going on.
Grace: [00:03:16] So I guess it's about my third week of classes at this point and I've been I started my internship, I guess, officially a few weeks ago. So I go in a day and a half each week for that. So it's not too much time, but it's still something kind of getting started with everything there,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:34] Like 15 hours a week there or something around that. Yeah, have you? So it's only been a couple of weeks there, right? You've only done like 30 hours.
Grace: [00:03:44] Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:45] Have you done? Have they given you? What type of stuff are they giving you, like bibs like putting research together? What types of stuff are you doing database work?
Grace: [00:03:56] Yeah. So at this point, like the time I started, they were kind of already in the middle of a bunch of deals. So it sounds it from what it's looking like. There's like a one that's kind of starting up soon that I'll be more involved with. So. And it's a much smaller company, too, but they've had me doing just some basic financial analysis on that, doing some work on that and then just more general things to like compiling research for comps, things like that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:25] Ok, good. Well, that'll help with your resume. How is everything else going with the balance, with all the schoolwork and with now that on top of everything and then the networking on top of that, is it too much or you feel like you're hanging in there, OK?
Grace: [00:04:39] It's definitely a lot, but I can manage it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:41] Ok? Yeah, because I mean, the stuff with, I mean, you're already in really like, it's funny because when I talk to everybody else, I always mention you. I'm like, Oh, she's in great shape. She's a freshman. She or he has an internship. You have the kind of what's it called those programs where you go in for like a week or a few days soon, right? Did you hear?
Grace: [00:05:02] So I haven't heard from Goldman, so I'm pretty sure I didn't get it. But I don't. I'm surprised just because there was a Fordham alum I talked with who like, pushed my resume to a bunch of people who run the women's program there. So did you? I'm actually talking. I have a phone call, though, on Monday with someone who I've. Previously talked with a Goldman, so I was going to ask her about that, too.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:26] Did you follow up with the person who is pushing your resume?
Grace: [00:05:29] Um, no, not him, so
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:30] I would follow up with him, just ask him. Hey, I'm not sure or even check on WSOC if like invites have been sent out already.
Grace: [00:05:38] Yeah, I was looking and most people got theirs. There was a delay, but most people did get there.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:43] Yet it OK. So I would ask him, just be like, Hey, I know. No worries if I didn't get it, just curious if they're rolling or if it's they're all out already. And he may be like, what? You didn't get one and he may like you push for you to get one. Or he may just say like, Oh yes, all right, couldn't get you in. But then it'll give you a little more clarity. Mm hmm.
Grace: [00:06:00] Um, a bunch of other banks have open theirs up recently, most of them are for sophomores, but some upperclassmen have told me to apply anyway because sometimes they'll look over that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:11] So I'll do that, especially within the banking experience on your resume already.
Grace: [00:06:16] Yeah, exactly. So I think Evercore, Barclays, a few others have more ones.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:22] Do you have you updated your resume for this internship you're doing now?
Grace: [00:06:26] I started doing it, but I haven't really finalized it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:30] Ok, why don't you take a draft, a stab at that and send it over to me and take a look? But you know, you kind of want to be a little bit more aggressive in terms of what you will be doing. Yeah. In terms of like financial analysis, you know, you don't have to say you like we're on a specific deal yet, but ideally within a couple of weeks, if you can be on that deal, you can list that transaction on there. In terms of is it a sell side M&A kind of deal?
Grace: [00:06:55] I just don't know yet what my role is going to be because I'm only in a day and a half each week. I can't be as involved as during the summer where I would be there every day.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:05] Got it. Yeah, makes sense. Do you have a headset by any chance? So you're saying that like specifically, you don't feel like you're going to be able to get as much influence because you're only there a couple of days a week, so somebody else is going to be running it? Mm hmm.
Grace: [00:07:19] Right. But I'm I still don't know yet, so I guess I'll see.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:24] So I guess in terms of like what you're doing on your resume, what's your thought like? You don't want to list the transactions or you feel comfortable enough to list the transactions if you're doing
Grace: [00:07:34] At this point, I wouldn't list any specific ones. I mean, because it's only been a couple of weeks, right? But I guess in another month or two, I'll see where things are.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:44] And yeah, ideally you can do at least one, maybe two, even if you're not like building the model, if you can be like doing the comps DCF analysis valuation, even if you're doing it alongside the analyst or you build it alongside him or her. I think that would be really helpful because just having those buzzwords words on your resume and making it look Nancy, and that that helps you clear a lot of screens, especially, I don't think you're going to have them. It doesn't sound like you're going to have it ready for these drop the resume drop for this, these short ones.
Grace: [00:08:16] But yeah, most of what I've been doing at this point is more, I guess, in excel with like sales data and like customer and that kind of thing, revenue by client
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:26] Like trying to build up a revenue model.
Grace: [00:08:31] Like, we're just like organizing the data like pivot tables, that kind of thing.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:35] Ok, that's still good. That's useful. Ok, and then so what else is going on? So you have a pretty full course load. Remind me you're going to be going to this is through the summer, correct? Yes. Ok, so. I'm just trying to think of how else you can prep, so did you have any other kind of interviews or chats or let's talk about your networking a little bit and how is that going? Because I know I challenged you a little bit, right? Last time?
Grace: [00:09:02] Yes. So I've been having a lot of phone calls recently, not as many coffee chats, just because I was away of a break. I'm just now getting back, but it's been good. I mean, I've been talking to a lot of different people in different positions because I've been really interested in real estate, so that's kind of a niche thing. Then also, people like restructuring. I've been interested in too. So I've been trying to target people in those areas, which can be difficult because they're more niche.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:35] But yeah, I mean, restructuring. If you're looking at restructuring, a lot of the good shops are like Houlihan. Lokey has a great restructuring practice. Lazard Rothschild, where I worked, has a strong restructuring group, not a bad place to potentially position yourself. Within the time we graduate, we probably will be in a recession or coming out. So not the worst place to position yourself. But yeah, I mean. In terms of restructuring, the difference is typically the engagements are longer. They tend to be you're dealing with obviously distressed companies, whether you're on. So do you understand the difference between debtor and seller side?
Grace: [00:10:16] Um, kind of.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:17] So, like, so sorry, debtor and creditor, so like the debtor side. Restructuring your you're advising the actual companies who took out the loans. They can't pay it and invite in, helping them negotiate basically against their creditors to try and get the best terms possible. And if you're an advisor for the creditors, you're basically trying to negotiate with the company to figure out what's the most you can still recover, even though you know you're not going to be whole in a distressed situation. So you lent out. There's a company I worked with called Gold Corp. Durango in Mexico, who's the largest paper and packaging plant when I was at Rothschild. And they, for example, had like issued, I think, JPMorgan, a couple of other big banks that issued like $800 million of unsecured debt to this company. And then pricing collapsed like six months later, and the company's profitability just completely tanked. And it was like the worst case scenario, right? Because they weren't even able to make like their first interest payment.
Grace: [00:11:17] Okay.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:17] Let alone that and so like it was a longer process. So basically the entire kind of process of working with that company, we were on the debtor side. So we were helping them build like a complex kind of capital structure or basically a financial model that had projections out based on what they thought. The new reality was basically the much worse reality with lower pricing and what the profitability was and basically what their debt capacity was. What could they actually pay back and over what time frame? And so a lot of that was building a model that had a lot of dynamic kind of flexibility in terms of the capital structure. So like all these? What debt would be forgiven? What debt would be structured, where how to negotiate with the secured creditors who had like actual claims on the machinery so you can't not pay them, you have to pay them or they all like they can basically take ownership with a company or shut you down. And then the unsecured, it's trying to figure out a way to kind of restructure something with them so that you can go into a bankruptcy process like what's called a pre-packaged bankruptcy process where you have a pre-packaged deal already negotiated with the creditors. So it's much easier to get in and get out of bankruptcy. So that was I mean, you learn a lot, you learn a lot about very ugly scenarios, complex capital structures. The negotiation is really intense and can take months, if not, if not years. Hmm.
Grace: [00:12:53] So it's kind of like that idea, kind of like really going in and getting your hands dirty.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:58] Yeah. And a lot of these companies are in rough shape or they're in industries that are kind of going through cyclical decline and whatnot. So. But yeah, I mean, I think it's an interesting place to be. Oftentimes, the exit offs for restructuring are like can be like distressed credit funds or just distressed by side hedge funds, private equity funds, that type of thing. But yeah, that's my little spiel.
Grace: [00:13:25] On restructuring from the real estate side, I've been able to talk with several Fordham alumni at Blackstone, too. So that's really good. And when I applied for the women's program next year, there's a few women I've talked with who are Fordham alumni at Blackstone, who can help me with that. And that's how they got in right from undergrad.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:44] And that group that Blackstone, what is that? That's like real estate? What are they? What types of investment is it like buy side? What are they just like managing portfolios?
Grace: [00:13:53] Will the people, the Fordham alum, who I've talked with, are more like real estate debt strategies groups so not direct real estate private equity, but it's still related. They work.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:05] Got it! What interested you about real estate?
Grace: [00:14:09] I don't know. I mean, I guess this past summer since I was doing commercial real estate insurance, I was kind of like, I got to meet some of the clients who work in commercial real estate. And that just kind of piqued my interest.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:22] Yeah, it's interesting. It's one of the more popular forums now, real estate finance in DSL. But there's like I know very little about it, and I know it's filled with a lot of like different sub snitches. And there's commercial. There's the individual investors and developers like on the ground type of people actually doing the work, like with little small companies where you can try to get a role, a role there. There's the large asset managers who are the rights and stuff like that where you're doing more like the large project scales and portfolio management. So there's a lot of different kind of subsectors within real estate, real estate. It's just such a huge umbrella term. It's like saying I want to work in a hedge fund. It's like, OK, what does that mean? Because there's so many different types between long, short macro. It's the same thing with real estate. There's so many different types of real estate. So I think it would be helpful if you kind of knew when you say, I want to go work in real estate. If you had like a a good understanding of where in the where in the real estate world kind of interests you most because you can do. There's a massive banks that work. Yeah, I mean, there's investment banks that work in real estate transactions, there's this private equity funds, private equity real estate, you know. So. So, yeah, I see your connections are growing on LinkedIn. Where were you before? I can't remember you're at like almost five hundred.
Grace: [00:15:50] I don't remember I was before, probably a little under 400. I've been sending out a lot of invites. It's just a matter of who accepts.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:58] Do you think the acceptance rate is pretty low?
Grace: [00:16:02] I don't know. I mean, I feel like there's a lot of people who don't check like they'll accept. I, you know, people are accepting now who I might have sent invite to three months ago. So.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:14] Yeah, I mean, you can do up to one hundred a day. I know you're busy and you don't want to just like spam everybody, but he could be doing like 20 a day. It doesn't hurt you to get that initial connection because once you're connected on LinkedIn, you can actually see their email.
Grace: [00:16:30] And right, that's been helpful,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:32] And that's huge, because once you have their email, then you can get them into the reminder cycle. I call it the run where you send an email and you have the reminder to follow up with them in three weeks or six weeks. Yeah, that's
Grace: [00:16:40] What I've been doing.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:41] Right inbox. And so then eventually it's going to start being like every morning you have like 10 emails, 50. So but it's good because the more you do that, the more chances you're getting yourself and making a great connection that's going to make you change your whole trajectory.
Grace: [00:16:58] Mm hmm. Yeah, I've already had a few people. I've talked to it, I guess more like middle market places who have said, if I'm looking for an internship, so let them know. So like for the fall, I'm definitely going to follow up with some of those people
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:12] For you mean sophomore summer
Grace: [00:17:14] Or for this fall. So I'll probably stay at the internship where I am now through the end of the summer and then I can intern in the fall semester too.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:22] Yeah. So you're like going to be doing this through schooling the whole.
Grace: [00:17:25] Yeah, that's what a lot of people here do.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:28] Yeah, because you're in the city, you can do. It's really intense.
Grace: [00:17:34] That's really I mean, I feel like this student life here is just a lot different because I mean, it's not a traditional college campus to begin with, right then. I don't know. They say we're living more like adults than actual college students.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:49] You are. I mean, you're living. I guess you're probably in a dorm or whatnot, but or student housing, but you're that's probably the only thing that's very college. Yeah. And then specifically, like your classes in the course load, is that something where you can keep it a manageable and manageable level? Is it? Is it finances it? What do you kind of focusing on and what is Fordham?
Grace: [00:18:11] Right now it's a mix. So I'm in some of kind of like the liberal arts core classes, and then I'm also in a business class this semester. That's just kind of a general business class, nothing too specific at this point. We just kind of do a little bit of everything and then economics. So and then I'm doing coding in my statistics class. So that's helpful to
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:35] Like what type of coding python
Grace: [00:18:37] Or
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:38] R? Yeah, I mean, we're about to actually release a course whereby the time this airs, we've released a course on Python Fundamentals because I think it's going to be more and more useful to people to have to be able to use that tool, especially in finance and sales and trading where everything is getting automated. Yes, M&A will probably be one of the last things that ever gets automated because it's really pure advisory and in relationships. So it's a good place to be. But OK, so it sounds like you're doing well. What do you think in terms of like? So you got like an extra 50 ish connection since we last spoke? I'd love to see that jump. Mm.
Grace: [00:19:25] Yeah, I've just been I've been playing catch up this week since I was put behind last week, but once this weekend's over,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:31] I'll have your school and your internship. Our priority right now. It's just tough for you to find because you have the internship during school, I just worry about your balance and like actually having time to breathe like you shouldn't push yourself to the point where you're working 80 90 hours a week, meaning with school and with everything that shouldn't be your life right now, you have plenty of time to do that when you graduate.
Grace: [00:19:57] No, I mean, my weekends are a lot more free because I can. I have schoolwork, but I can fit that in where I want to write.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:04] So I mean, what I would suggest is if you can have a balance where your schoolwork is, let's say you're in, you're in class, what, 10 hours a week and you're studying 10 to 15 hours a week.
Grace: [00:20:16] Yeah, probably a little bit more, a little more.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:19] Maybe 20, so it's twenty-five hours and then the problem is you got another 15 hours right there with the internship. You already at 40, so maybe just putting another five if you do five, like an hour a day of networking during the week, I think you can still do a lot of damage an hour of reaching out with connections to relevant people in New York or, like you said, remember the previous people who had backgrounds to Maryland? Yeah. Have you already done all those? Have you worked through those?
Grace: [00:20:47] I think I've gone through most of those just kind of doing it by high school and by local colleges.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:54] Remind me, did you get sales navigator? Did you invest in that? Yes, I did. Ok, so you have, you know, you can say like actual lists, right? Is like different searches and lists.
Grace: [00:21:04] I didn't know that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:05] Yeah. So you can save them so you can go back and then you'll know it'll help you keep track. Okay. So like going forward, if you're like, Hey, I want to only look at people at, I don't know, I'm trying to think of some random thing, only people who are in New York or, like you say, OK, female investment bankers in M&A. That's who I want to target now, or female investment bankers or investment bankers and restructuring. You do a search with like restructuring as a keyword to see. It won't capture all of them, but it'll capture enough of them where you can actually, in your message, have something along the lines of like, I'd love to learn more about restructuring. Its distressed advisory is actually interesting to me. I'll blow out. I'm trying to. I'm trying to just learn more about it.
Grace: [00:21:52] Yeah, that's what I've been trying to do at this point, I'd been mostly Fordham connections or trying to find some kind of connection in common.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:59] Yeah, I mean, the Fordham network, it's pretty big, right? Do you feel like it's I just don't want you to like I know Fordham historically hasn't been like a super target school. Mm hmm. So I don't want you to get stuck only connecting with people who are in like in positions that don't reach your potential.
Grace: [00:22:20] Mm hmm. So like, I mean, that's it's been growing a lot the past few years. So that's why I've really been targeting the younger people and that's more of who I've found. So like I said, the people at Blackstone, like that's been there's been a growing number there in the past few years, and in Goldman too has had a large number coming past, I think, like three or four years.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:42] Yeah. And so you've got to be careful looking specifically at what groups they're going into. Because it's a huge difference, like Blackstone and Goldman are two huge names. But look, where are the Fordham alums actually going and then where are the other alums going at the other top schools? And if there's a big difference, I say for career wise, you shouldn't be just, I think career wise, you should be targeting the hardest groups to get into right. You already have an internship in investment banking. You're already building because you knew so early. It's funny. I had a podcast with a young guy who's like, It's such a lie. When they say to you, you have time to figure it out. He's like, They don't. You don't have time to figure it out. I'm like, You're right, I'm like, I have a there's a freshman I'm working with, and she already has an internship. Is it exactly? She's the one who's going to she's going to get all the interviews because she has like from freshman year on then building that network, actually showing that on her resume. So it's a huge advantage. So I don't think you should limit yourself to only specific groups, and I'm sure there are some Fordham alums who are super, super successful at top banks in the top groups. But it's not. It's not as big a pool, right?
Grace: [00:23:50] Yeah, it's a lot more in the younger.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:53] Yeah, it's the younger people. And it's also. And so like, I want you to branch outside of that because I think you're going to get a much more varied. And an interesting kind of perspective from talking to those people, so like find other commonalities around.
Grace: [00:24:11] I've been trying to do. It's tough, but like I've done volunteer work.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:17] I mean, you could look at photography even and try to do a keyword, right?
Grace: [00:24:20] Mm hmm. Yeah, I've been trying to find people. So I've done volunteer work with the Muscular Dystrophy Association and I'm getting involved here in New York. So I've been trying to find people with that. But it's difficult through LinkedIn because when you put in that keyword, then people with who've done charity things just related to that, but not with the
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:39] Organization, right? So yeah, it is tough. You got to. That's the hard part is like getting the filters right and knowing what to go after next. But there's really no limit to potential connections. I wouldn't be shy. There's no advantage to being shy.
Grace: [00:24:57] Mm hmm. I've started kind of doing that, even people who I don't necessarily have anything in common with just sending invites.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:03] Yeah, and if that's the point where you've gotten to, I mean, best, if you can do something and kind of whether even if it's not, even if it's like saying, Hey, I'm at a non target as well and you can do like you could put people in the, you know, I'd love to learn your story and how you got there. And I think a lot of people are oftentimes from those schools or oftentimes more willing to talk. Because they struggled and, you know, not everyone responded to them when they were in your shoes. Ok. So oftentimes you can be like. You can do a search for a specific group like, let's say you want to talk to somebody in TMT at the top bank like a telecom media group or a consumer group. You can do a search for that and then you can like look at the schools they went to and like any that are seem like a state school or a school that isn't traditionally seen as a strong feeder, that's potentially a good connection. That makes sense, that makes sense. Yes. Ok. So I mean, I think right now it's about keeping your grades up. Um, making sure school and internship are priority, want to make sure that they have good things to say about you?
Grace: [00:26:19] Yeah, I got my first semester at GPA, so three-point nine three.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:22] I think it's not too bad, not too bad. I think you're OK as long as you're yeah, as long as you're above like a three-five, three six, I think you're fine. I wouldn't let it. If you can keep it about three seven, it's great. Three nines. Perfect. That's great. It's actually almost better than a four. Hmm. People laugh, but Furrow isn't necessarily. A good thing, because oftentimes there's associations with the foroe of like this person only focuses on academics, academics. It makes you look a little less. Or where if you have a three nine, it's like, OK, they're just really sharp. And look, they have they're doing all these other things.
Grace: [00:26:59] Ok, yeah. I don't think they'll ever get it up to a four. But yeah,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:03] Yeah, it's fun. And so like a three, a three, and I think it's that's perfect to target that. But yeah, obviously, just keep trying to get A's and I think you'll be in good shape. Anything else I can help with personally, like, do you want me to look through any of your actual outreach emails or connection requests?
Grace: [00:27:23] So I mean, it's been pretty standard. I can go through my pending invites right now.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:32] All right, cool. So yeah, yeah, if you can, if it's pretty standard, if you want to just read off a one, one or two of them to me or. He.
Grace: [00:27:45] Um, so here's one that I've found affordable on who was also in the same honors group that I'm in, it's a really small honors group. So I said, Hi Lucas. I'm a Fordham freshman studying global business and finance and also in GVP. I saw you work in M&A with an IB, a group. I'm particularly interested in hearing more about it. I love to be connected so we can maybe chat at some point. That is mutually convenient. And then it's
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:11] Great, and I'd love to know how many of those you're sending out. So I guess the whole I'll give you homework. Your homework is to send out. So you're at four point forty three. Your homework is to send out. I'm doing the math in my head.
Grace: [00:28:30] I have for 20.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:33] Two hundred, you have 220 pending sent invites. So I want that to be in the next month. I'm doing I'm taking out my calculator right now. Let's say you have. Monday through Friday, five to about 20 days weekdays, and you're going to give an hour, how long is an hour a day? So it's like that's 20 hours to work on this. How many do you think you can send out an hour?
Grace: [00:29:00] Umm hmm. 30 and 30.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:07] Ok, to like one every other minute, so it's like six hundred more invites you could have pending.
Grace: [00:29:17] I can drive
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:19] So you can try that. I think it's going to just you're just going to have so you're just going to have such a broader base going into your sophomore year of people that actually responded that you actually had a 20 minute call with where from that, say, six hundred people, maybe one hundred will connect with you and maybe only 20 will do a call. So it's not. It shouldn't be overwhelming, even if you spend the whole month with outreach.
Grace: [00:29:47] The thing is, like the people who connected, who have accepted my request, but they haven't responded anything. How long should I wait before I reach out to them about doing a call? Or do I just let it sit for a while?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:00] So once you're saying once they're connected, they accept your request, but then they don't follow up on the message saying, Let's chat.
Grace: [00:30:06] Yeah, so the people that don't,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:08] I would get it into email, OK? And I would say LinkedIn connection as the subject. And I say, Hey, I just want to say thanks for connecting again. Very interesting. Amanda would love to follow up at some point over the coming over the next month or so. I'm typically free on give times where you're typically open that you don't have class and then basically just see if they're willing to kind of put something on a calendar.
Grace: [00:30:38] Okay. Right now I have a list of about 30 or 40 people who fit that, who have connected with me, but I haven't but never responded. So I've had a call with them yet, so I wasn't sure how long I should wait before emailing them versus just sending out more LinkedIn invites right now.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:54] I mean, I would email them right away right after the connection when it's warm and just get that started, and then I wouldn't follow. And then if you send that email and they don't respond, I wouldn't follow up like within a week. Um, I would do it more like. I would wait three weeks, OK, and then follow up again and just say, hey, it'd be great to chat. Are you free some time and then maybe offer a different time, you know, do any of those times or try to be really flexible in terms of what you offer? Um, because, you know, obviously they're super, super busy, and, you know, if they text, you leave your phone number in the email if you want, you can send that to. Maybe you could just say something like LinkedIn connection on the subject and then you can say, Hey, hey, Dan, thanks again for connecting. Thanks for connecting on LinkedIn. Just wanted to follow up and see if sometime over the next few weeks might work for you for a quick 10 minute chat. I'm typically free any time from seven a.m. to 10 a.m. on Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and any time after five p.m. on Monday through Friday. Whatever it is, your schedule? Ok. Please let me know. Please let me know if any of the times work, and then you can just have your number in your signature, your email, your number and everything there, so they may just text you. Ok. Maybe do you have time now and you've got to be like, Oh, is this? Yeah. And so that's why it's good to have. I don't know how you're tracking it. You have a sheet of some sort.
Grace: [00:32:39] Yeah, I just have a list right now of about 30 or so, just the names of people who I haven't actually contacted yet.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:46] Ok. So yeah, I mean, I think it makes sense to get them into some sort of reminder cycle because out of those 30, you can probably get five calls, I'm guessing at least.
Grace: [00:32:54] Yeah. And I've also found with other people who I've already emailed that a lot of times the email on their LinkedIn is one they don't use, so they just never open the email. And then the follow ups never opened, either. And that happens like an old personal one.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:07] And if that happens, you can always go back to LinkedIn and try a message on there because if they accept it, they do. That means they do occasionally check LinkedIn usually. So does that make sense? Is that possible? You think you can hit six hundred?
Grace: [00:33:21] Um, I can try.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:23] I mean, I think more important than six hundred try to get calls, I mean, what matter? More calls so you can do like 10 calls before, maybe tens a lot if you can do five calls before next month.
Grace: [00:33:34] Mm hmm. Oh, yeah, I already have a bunch of calls scheduled for the next few weeks.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:38] You do great. How many?
Grace: [00:33:41] I don't remember right now. Three, but several. Just because most of the people who I do send invites to who respond will get back to me and say, like, oh, when are you available?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:53] That's awesome. So I would put that when you I guess. Oh, so they ask after your connection request. They ask when you're available, and then that's when you kind of come back to them with just. As an open schedule, as open as you can have it,
Grace: [00:34:05] Yeah, basically
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:08] Awesome. Yeah, I'd always try to be early for those calls and kind of. Be ready to ask questions of why are you interested in M&A or why, why restructuring, and that's what makes it tough if you start saying, Oh, I want restructuring, you've got to be ready to at least have a decent understanding of what it is.
Grace: [00:34:26] Most of them are even I feel like most of them underestimate my knowledge, and I usually know more than what they're saying. Like a lot of times, they start explaining things that I already know.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:38] Yeah, I think I know less. So I think that's good. And I think I think where you can impress is the types of questions you ask that show, you know, that knowledge. Yeah. Way that's not obnoxious.
Grace: [00:34:49] Right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:50] You want to be like, so tell me about the debtor is most of your most your things debtor or creditor work. But I mean, that's a good question. If you know, if you understand the difference and you're not doing it, are the engagement. What are the engagements like? Is it heavy modeling for the analysts there, that type of stuff and you can take you should be taking notes.
Grace: [00:35:11] Oh yeah, I do. I an excel sheet with long notes from every call.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:15] So perfect. Yeah, because in that way, you can follow up with like, really targeted email.
Grace: [00:35:19] Yeah. And that's what I did to a lot of over break was following up with people who I talked with over the summer, and I was able to say, like, if they gave me this advice, Oh, I follow this advice and this is what happened.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:31] Yeah, it's awesome. People love that. Because then you're also showing like you're following through. You actually have. Yeah.
Grace: [00:35:39] Yes. I'm on a phone call right now. I'm sorry. I'm in a room.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:44] It's OK. We'll be. So, yeah, I think, you know, if you can keep doing all that, I feel like you're going to be in great shape, not just this year and through the summer. I mean, this summer you can do a lot of damage because you don't school. Just think about,
Grace: [00:36:01] Yeah, I just don't know how that will work because I'll be in the office all day. It's like it's just, you know, also, I mean, I'm in the middle of Park Avenue, too. So all the office
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:11] Buildings are right there. Lunch, lunch with people. You're going to need a big lunch budget or they'll hopefully or just coffee a coffee budget. Yeah, you're going to have so much caffeine or just get used to drinking tea or something that's less caffeinated or water wise, you'll be shaking by your fifth coffee chat. Anything else in terms of like questions about like the follow up and the timing? I think it is a little tricky. You don't I don't you don't want to be, like, really annoying and start hitting them every week, every week, every week. I think go. So we talked a little bit about the timing. So I think right when they connect on LinkedIn, if they haven't responded within a day or two, you can go ahead and send that email and start the reminder cycle. And I'd hit him again in three weeks if they haven't responded. If they still don't respond after that, I would give them another. Don't give up, I would give it another 12 weeks. So three months. Um, and then if they don't respond to that one, then I would let that contact go. So there's the after they connect with you, it's a hey, thanks for connecting me. Here's my times. Three weeks later, it's hey, you know, still would love to chat if you know you're super busy. Do any of these times work and you just go, Boom, boom, boom, boom. And then literally two weeks later, hey, just one last email. I hope. I hope this isn't bothering you, but I know how busy you guys are. It still be great to chat with you if you have the time. Otherwise, no worries. I won't. I won't. I won't message you again, OK? That type of thing. And then that way you're hitting them three times over a pretty long period of time. You're showing persistence, but doing it in a way that's actually conscious of their time. And the beauty is you're not in such a rush to get an internship that you don't need to be hitting them right? You can do it a little bit more spaced out and still show that. Hey, I have an internship, I'm not looking for a job, I mean, I almost wonder if there's a way you can. Um. Maybe in the second email, if they haven't followed up with you, just because they may think, Oh, this person is just going to be asking for an internship, you can say I already have an internship secured. I'm really just curious to hear more about the position. That's the I think a line like that is actually important in the second follow-up if they're not willing to chat with you. I think that could do a lot for your conversions. Ok. Because then it's a true mentorship call, it's a true just helpful.
Grace: [00:38:42] And then I did have one other question, so if I have like some people that I've talked with on the phone, then either they offer to connect me with other people or I ask and they say that they'll do that or they'll find someone they'll think about who they could connect me with. And then when I follow up after the phone call, I say something about that. But then they never get back to me. How do I politely follow up asking about that again? I know it's different in every circumstance
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:11] I so on right inbox, you can set default reminder time means. So like one week, three weeks, seven weeks, 12 weeks, 14, you can do whatever you want to have it set so as a template so you can quickly drop it down. What I would do is after you send that email with the thank you but for doing the call, I'm going to if you do have anyone blah. If they don't follow up, I wouldn't be like in a week. Hey, you never gave me anyone what I would do. Is you do it in a way that's more subtle where you just give them an update? Come on where you are. So. Let's say, for example, you have a call with somebody next week. It's February. Um. They say they're going to put you in touch with somebody, you have a great call, you say thank you, Derrida. They don't get in touch with you, but you have them on their mind. They don't get back to you, but you have them on a reminder schedule for 12 weeks. You've made that connection. The most important thing is that you've made that connection. Now, have a voice to have a face to that, to your resume, to everything. The most important thing is that you're getting on the phone with them once. Yes, it's good. It's actually critical that you always ask for that warm intro to build. But the most important thing is that you've made that connection. So it's not something where you need to be like, annoying them, especially when you don't need anything right now. So what I would do is like in May, rather than be like, Hey, do you have anybody else I can talk to? You just be like, Hey, I just want to thank you again for the call we had back in February. Just letting you know I'm starting my internship this week. I'm really excited. I'd love to just keep you up to date notice that your firm was doing this or something along of either a question or something helpful to them. If you can add value at all to them, I think it would. That'd be great, that's really that's a hard ask, sometimes as a depression, but if there's anything you saw in the news that reminds you of a conversation you had with somebody in terms of a deal date, maybe they did or whatnot, it's a great opportunity to reach out. And that's where, like your mental memories are almost going to be more valuable than the spreadsheet. Like, if you're reading something in the news, whether it's. P Hub or one of these other news outlets, deal sheet, and more, you're basically reading about different M&A transactions or restructuring, and you notice, Oh, this person's bank or this person's group is working on this deal. It's a great opportunity is to reach out, be like, Hey, congrats. But yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't feel the pressure to keep hounding them for another contact. Ok. I don't think it's worth it. Right? I don't think it's worth it because you're already doing the legwork to get more contacts yourself anyways. Sorry. Excuse me. Ooh! Cold, get over cold. Too many kids bring in too many coats, but so. Does that make sense? Yeah. Ok. I think I lost you. Your volume me there. I lost you. So, yeah, I got you back. So does that make sense in terms of just like the. The follow up again, you're going to be doing the legwork, you don't need to be bothering people more. I think it's better if you're just reaching out to give them updates like every three to six months. Ok? In terms of where you are in your process, the internship kind of what happened there and I can help you at the end of your internship kind of craft an email trying to give a lot of your updates, a lot of your contacts, and update on what you did over the summer. And in that smart going into the fall, especially if you're like, especially if you actually have another internship lined up in the fall, it looks even better. And now I'm going to be starting this and be like, Who is this girl like? I remember talking to her. She seemed sharp, and now she's stacking internships back to back during the school year. I think it looks really good. And she's only a sophomore. You know, by next year.
Grace: [00:43:15] So for the people that I've talked with, I guess starting in around September through December. How long do I wait until I follow up with them again?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:24] So you sent a thank you note, right?
Grace: [00:43:26] Yes.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:28] September through December. I mean, I think you can wait till
Grace: [00:43:31] Wait till the middle or end of the summer.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:33] I think I think you could. Or just a little late by the end of the summer? Ok. But, you know, six months isn't crazy. Like maybe, maybe more like middle of the summer when you're in the middle of an internship saying you're loving it, they're really interesting. You're working on a transaction to sell side. I just wanted to give you an update and thank you again for all your advice. Late last year, OK? Short and sweet, something like that is great just to keep you top of mind because maybe like we're looking actually to fill. They may actually be doing it kind of in the middle of the summer, it might be better because they may actually be looking to fill some spots, right? It's funny. That may be a nice way to kind of if you don't have something lined up for the fall yet. Ok? To do it. So maybe even like late May or early June, I don't know when you start, when you start your.
Grace: [00:44:22] Because I've already been doing it this semester, too.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:24] Yeah. But when do you start at the when you finish school and start full time there,
Grace: [00:44:29] It'll probably be around Memorial Day.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:31] So like late May, so maybe like late June, just to give you a month there full time, I think you'll be able to say a little bit more. Right? It'll be a little more believable. Yeah. True is really tough. It's really tough with the 15 hours a week to be able to come across as like, oh, I'm really doing banking now. Yeah. So I think this is great, though I think I think you're in a really good shape. I think that by. Yes, it don't feel like you have to follow up with them every three months, it can be six months. Exactly, especially now that you have, I mean, especially if you have nothing to say. Like, what are you going to do? I mean, it's like, Hey, I'm still working. I'm still at the same age. It's almost better to do it when there's a bigger change or something. Some moment a momentum. Or, you know, Hey, this is in a few months. I know this recruiting is kicking off. And I kind of want to get my name back at the top of the mind, top of the pile. I know in three weeks, four weeks, I'm going to be dropping my resume for the program. Ok. And so timing that cycle is important, but I don't think anybody has to be like, it has to be a three month cycle for sure, for everybody. And like, you keep reaching out for Type kit because I think it just gets it gets it's too rote, it's too robotic. It's not enough. And really, the goal here is it sounds robotic, so I'm telling you to reach out to thousands of people. Mm hmm. But the real goal here is to develop a handful to 20 really strong relationships, right? That's a that's going to move the needle a lot more than like having one hundred really just informational meetings. Yeah, never go any further like you want somebody to after you start updating the kind of taking interest in you and really kind of notice that you're following up, that you're following their advice, that you're speaking about the deals you're working on intelligently. Mm hmm. So like, you have something to say about it, and that's where I think the email is really important in terms of your update. Like in later, let's say, being able to craft that in such a way where they kind of like, sit up and say, this is an intern. You know, OK. And it's a little bit of a balancing act because you don't want to come across as a try hard.
Grace: [00:46:48] Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:49] And like, oh, I'm such a banker, you know? Right? So you're going to know it all. So I think it's important to come across as humble and continue trying to earn. If you do that, I think you're going to be in great shape.
Grace: [00:47:01] Mm hmm. Ok.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:03] That does that make sense? Yes. But I would aim for just keep building that, doing those initial calls all through like March and then end to June fall with that whole group. Ok, then you can kind of get them all on the same thing. It'll be insane. It'll be insane how this wave coming around like five to six months. But it'll be good because you can then figure out, OK, who really is taking an interest? Mm hmm. Right? Because there's always those people who just love giving back and love connecting with people who are hungry and who want it. Mm hmm.
Grace: [00:47:38] So, yeah, and Fordham alumni in particular, always very helpful because it's a smaller group.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:44] Yeah, it's awesome. Awesome. So I'm sure most of them will come from there, but you may be surprised. Yeah. Do other places or non target students? There's something kind of like, Oh, I'm going to take her under my wing and help her.
Grace: [00:47:55] Yeah, there's been a few other people who I have really taken a liking to me. That's great for them. So that's
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:00] Awesome. Awesome. I think that's important. So any other questions ask as many questions as you have?
Grace: [00:48:08] Oh, I think that's all of them at this point.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:10] Yeah, because I think you're on a great path once you do have a transaction where you're a little more comfortable putting on your resume. Let's talk about that. That's super critical. Like the earlier, you can get that on your resume, the more looks you're going to get. This looks like a banking resume now and then you start removing some of the older stuff.
Grace: [00:48:29] Mm hmm. Yeah, I can send you what I did so far. I have like three bullet points, but they're really general just because, OK. It hasn't been that long.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:38] And that's it. But yeah, in terms of like removing stuff, we don't want to just start getting into the mistake of trying to pack your resume and keep everything and hold on because you feel like everything is so critical. You have a lot of like medicine.
Grace: [00:48:52] And yeah, I took a few things out from the Hopkins part, since that was perfect
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:57] Because it was massive. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you should still always have that, probably for a while and the ship and stuff like that. But I think the more you can fill up the top of your resume with relevant finance stuff, right, the better off you're going to be. Yeah, a lot of common sense.
Grace: [00:49:11] Yeah, I'll email that to you.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:49:13] Cool. Perfect. Yes. So you're good then anything else? Just like, yeah, try not to burn yourself out. Yeah, I'm like, Yeah, get six hundred connections with Don't freak yourself out. If you have to drop something, drop this right now. Ok, you're in a good, you're in a good spot. In terms of if you didn't have an internship yet for the summer, I'd be pushy. I'd be I would say I take priority over your schoolwork. Mm hmm. But I don't anymore like, you're in it. So now if something has to drop to keep your grades up and to do well at the internship, it should be this. Ok, that makes sense. Yes. And it may flip again, like by summer mid-summer, if you don't have any good leads and you're like, Hey, what am I going to do in the fall? And I'll be like, This takes priority. Yeah, your internship. So it may flip and that that little cadence of like, OK, what should I be focusing most of my time, most of my week on? It's going to keep flipping depending on like the time of the year. So let's just keep that in mind. Yes. Anyways, is that helpful? I hope it is.
Grace: [00:50:14] Yes, that's very helpful. Thank you.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:50:16] Ok. And then yeah, just be confident. Don't be shy. Just don't be shy about who you are.
Grace: [00:50:22] Oh yeah, I'm not anymore. I've done so many phone calls at this point, and
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:50:26] You're going to get so good at it.
Grace: [00:50:28] You're going to get, Oh, I and your question already tell my social skills are just like networking skills are better than most of my peers who are also like freshmen.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:50:37] Yeah. And the other thing, of course, because as a freshman, it's super intimidating. I couldn't even talk to anybody. But then the other thing about this is your questions are going to get better because you're going to learn through them telling about you stuff like, let's say you talk to one restructuring banker or you talk to me a little bit about it and somebody else is going to be a little bit more detail. You start piecing it together and then you're going to get more nuanced and more targeted specifically around there, and that's going to impress them even more. So like, you take these calls as really an educational experience, and the beauty is you don't need an internship. It really is that there's no ulterior motive here. Ok? There is an ulterior motive of building the potentially down the road. It could help you what you're putting in the work so far ahead that it really is almost like the most pure networking that you get. And networking kind of has a dirty connotation associated with it because it's like, Oh, this person is just and I had a podcast and the guy was like, I'm so sick of these kids just coming in with the same five questions. What's the culture like? Tell me what your favorite deal was. I'm like, They're not really engaged in what the person is saying, so it's like a huge waste of time. Rather than trying to connect with the person on a human level, right, and show vulnerability because now is the time to show vulnerability, you're young. It's like, you know, I'm still trying to learn about like what even is restructuring? I don't know.
Grace: [00:51:54] There's already have really low expectations, low
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:57] Expectations and like, but share with them what you know and be excited, but also like show a little bit of vulnerability. So they feel like they can help and they can feel good. And that makes them feel like a connection to you when somebody helps another person. It's like crazy. What happens like? They feel like they have a vested interest and then all of a sudden they're much more likely to follow up to your emails. Oh, that's awesome, grace. Keep me updated. Sounds like you're doing great. Oh, and by the way, our process is kicking off. I'd love to put you in there and then, boom, you're like, OK, so that's the goal. I think the better you get with your social skills, the better you get with your just conversations and really, really try not to have like rote set questions, really try to get good at listening to what the person is saying and riffing off of that. So when I say riffing off of that, it's almost like it's almost
Grace: [00:52:49] Like a follow up
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:52:50] Question. It's a dance. It's like somebody says, if they go in this specific direction where they're talking about that, you don't go back to your list and go, Yeah, don't tell me about blah. And they're like, Wait, does she like, actually understand what I'm saying? But like, actually, you know, what is that mean or what does that stand for? And then they'll love that because they're like, Oh, she she's not pretending or messing. She's just trying to learn. Yeah. So just be open like you already know so much more than most freshmen, so you don't have to feel ashamed about not knowing something. Mm hmm. You can be like, Actually, I have no clue, and that will be so refreshing if you say that, OK, could you shed some light on it? That would be really great. And then that's great. That's beautiful because you take a note on that. You follow up like, thank you so much for your explanation on this,and this. That was really insightful. And that's really how you build a stronger bond instead of just a transaction. Mm hmm. Right. You don't want it to feel like, OK, here's a ten minute call. Ok, well, thank you so much. Bye. Mm hmm. It's more like the way you end. The conversation is actually really important in terms of. Well, listen, I don't want to take so much of your time, grace. I really appreciate this. I hope I can. It's OK if I follow up with you, as you as I go through for, as I work through my internship and maybe this summer I can out back out to you and kind of give you an update like, Oh, of course. Yeah, yeah. Keep me updated. Let me know how things are going. Ok, great. Well, thank you so much. Take care. But like just that little thing where you're planting the seed of like, you're going to let them know how you're doing right.
Grace: [00:54:17] And a lot of them actually say that before I can, they'll say, Keep me updated. Let me know what else I can do. Awesome.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:54:24] Awesome. So that's great. I mean, you're making a good impression, so just keep doing what you're doing. Stay healthy, drop. If you have to drop anything, drop this, but just try to keep at least some cadence. Let it drop to zero, right? Try to keep building a little bit so that, you know, I think you have time on your side and you're in a great, great seat. So keep it up.
Grace: [00:54:44] Yeah, thank you so much for all the good
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:54:45] Choice of color today. Good choice of color minds.
Grace: [00:54:48] Think alike. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:54:49] All right, we'll talk soon.
Grace: [00:54:51] All right, bye.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:54:51] And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.
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