WSO Podcast | E215: IB in the Netherlands + Egypt then an MBA at Tuck
In this episode, Hans shares his winding path from college, to IB in the Netherlands and eventually Egypt. Listen to hear how he valued international exposure and how he was able to land a position with the private arm of the World Bank.
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WSO Podcast Episode 215 Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief Monkey. And this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me as I talk to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:20] Paths and life in general.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:21] Let's get to it. In this episode, Hans shares his winding path from college to IB in the Netherlands and eventually Egypt. Listen. To hear how he valued international exposure and how he was able to land a position with the private arm of the World Bank before heading off to Tuck for his MBA. Enjoy. All right, Hans, welcome to the Wall Street Oasis podcast.
Hans: [00:00:49] Thank you for having me. How are you?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:51] Great. This would be awesome if you could just give the listeners a short summary of your bio.
Hans: [00:00:56] Yeah, Yeah. Starting at, I'll skip all the irrelevant things, the high school and all that stuff. And growing up childhood, I went to undergrad at you Roosevelt very international program and Middlebury is close to the Belgian border south of the Netherlands and 50% of the people are are international. So you can do a lot, get foreign credits, get it incorporated. I went to London, lfi went to Beyond France, I went to UCLA, Los Angeles, got all those credits and a degree, then went to grad school, got a master's in law and economics, supervision and regulation of markets, and ended up doing some grad internships. International Technology and Trade Associates in Washington, D.C.. A consulting firm, Oil and Gas Market consulting for law enforcement years, a wealth management firm in Hilversum, the Netherlands, then did some trade politics a brief stint at the Royal Netherlands Embassy in Washington, D.C., and then went to IMG, the major financial institute in the Netherlands, Europe and the US as well, of course, Australia as a major market. But I was on Dutch domestic and did that for close to two years before switching to the IFC, the International Finance Corporation, the private sector branch of the World Bank Group in Egypt, and then MENA at first. Then some split happened, some rearrangements, and I ended up with Middle East, Central Asia and Pakistan, Turkey. And after two and a half years, they got accepted to Dartmouth. Chuck And they'll start to assume August 8th. So that's where we are.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:38] That's exciting, man. A lot to unpack. Let's actually start all the way back at Roosevelt. So let's let's go all the way back. Let's go to Roosevelt. Let's hear a little bit about where you always thinking career in finance or law specifically. It sounds like a really cool program if you're able to go to all those other schools. So how long do you spend in UCLA? How long were you in the other schools? Was it like only one semester or what?
Hans: [00:03:02] Yeah, I'll take you through it. So to be completely fair and open with you, I wanted to go to the UK after high school and I went through the UKIP thing. All your English listeners will know what that is. You go through all these application portals and stuff, and then my parents, my dad actually went to Nairobi for a lecture the one night, a business school like famous business school in the Netherlands. And he said, Hey, I heard about this small liberal arts college all the way down south by the Belgian border. I speak English all day and it's still here. It would be perfect for you. So they kind of nudged me in the right direction, but I ended up going there for an open day and I liked it a lot and it was the environment. I was looking for, the international exposure I wanted early on, so I went for it. That's how I ended up there. And the London School of Economics was my first summer. I went to London in between the first and second year in between the second and third, I went to Lyon to learn French, but to be fair, I hung out with the English a lot. So I mean, my French is not not, not that great, but I had an amazing time. I would highly recommend going to Lyon and Catholic University of Lyon offers a great, great program. It's so much fun. People from all over the world. Then I went to UCLA for about half a year. That was my first US experience. What do you think.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:36] What do you think of that compared to the others?
Hans: [00:04:39] I guess like speaking as a Dutch person, California is a good place to start out at. I think it's culturally very similar. It's just like it's Holland with better weather. I used to say when I was there, like as a joke. Yeah. Which is? Which is. It's more true than you'd say. It's, it's fairly accurate. So I felt very at home like. It wasn't like it had a profound impact. I started searching ways to go back to the US whenever I could. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:08] And then what do you think your majoring in? Like law, political science stats and stuff. What made you kind of think, okay, now it's time to go get a law degree and a master's in law rather than Were you thinking at all when your undergrad, like, Hey, I should go into finance right away or I should get get a legal job or it was pretty standard. I know in Europe is more common to go straight to the Masters.
Hans: [00:05:30] Yeah, Yeah, indeed. It's very common to go straight to the Masters. In fact, you kind of needed to. So I was, I was already thinking of business school in the US, but to get to business school, you need a masters. It's odd. You need a masters to get into the masters, right? Yeah. That's because the countries are not linked in the world yet, but it's the way it is.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:51] But that was a three year program, it looks like. Ah, two and a.
Hans: [00:05:53] Half years or something. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's not really on paper, but you may be familiar with this. It's quite common in Europe to put your master's thesis on the shelf so you can do internships very often. You need to be a registered student somewhere to intern the government. For instance, if you want to learn in in diplomacy at an embassy, you need to be a registered student. So I took advantage of that by making the program a bit longer than it should be.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:22] And so, yeah, and so in terms of like should I think of it as like the equivalent of Master of laws is similar to like a JD here in the US.
Hans: [00:06:28] I think JD is a bit more intense or longer. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:32] Yeah. And so tell me a little bit about the specifics of like when you started these internships, what kind of open your eyes the most? What was. I guess not the worst experience. What was the kind of like eye opening like? I definitely don't want to do that. Or there's certain things that sort of pique your interest. Was it more like the economic finance side? Is that what kind of start to guide you there? Or when did you.
Hans: [00:06:53] Well, I think like to go back to the UCLA experience. At that point, I decided I do want to spend like a large segment of life in the US. At some points there was no rush. But that was became a goal. And I started to think like, what would be interesting to do? Liberal arts, not very specific or anything like. Get more on points like. Become a specialist in something and choose a profession. And I figured diplomacy. I figured maybe I can go become a diplomat and go to the United States and work as one of the consulates in Chicago, New York or Atlanta, San Francisco, or the embassy in D.C.. So that sort of became a goal. And while I was chasing that goal, I mean, I eventually ended up being an intern at an embassy. So I think I was fairly on track with that. But I met people in D.C. within the World Bank system. Doing development finance work, and that sort of sparked an even greater interest. And yeah, I think that's that's when I started going down the finance path. That's why I went back to the Netherlands, found a job with IMG who gave me like a shot even though I had a law degree. And you sign up for the CFA program and really dived into finance.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:15] Interesting. Yeah. So let's talk about that. So like you're at the embassy, you kind of thinking, Oh, maybe this finance things a little more interesting for me. I'm more curious. I want to explore this. So the decision of you're in D.C., right?
Hans: [00:08:26] Yeah, I was in D.C..
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:27] Yeah. And was it just like it was an internship, so it was coming to an end. How did you kind of make that transition back home? Smooth in such a way where, like you did land that job at IMG. With the law background, How did you convince them to do that? Because I think that's a lot of people have that struggle here in the US, even they have the JD and suddenly they're like, Actually, I want to do investment banking and it's very hard to kind of point to your CV.
Hans: [00:08:49] Yes, yes, I totally see how that's a hard pivot. And yeah, so if I can give one tip, IAG is a place where you can get your shots, even though you may have a bit of a non-traditional backgrounds. I mean, I'm a case in point for that. And yeah, I had some time that also helped. I took about three months to go through the actual job search and try out different offices and different cities at coffee chats, different bank branches. And it wasn't really a gap either, because at the time we had elections in the Netherlands and I was I was volunteering with a with a campaign. So, I mean, I was doing something useful. I wasn't sitting around doing nothing. So it worked out. I got I had some time to to make sure I set myself upright.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:47] Tell me about how you approached coffee chats for this stuff. So it sounds like you were pretty open to going anywhere in the world.
Hans: [00:09:53] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Fun fact, I went to the IFC and I wrote them a letter. I'll take the job anywhere. And they said, How about Egypt? That's how I ended up in Egypt.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:04] So tell me about. Yeah, but tell me more about it. So we'll get there. But tell me what the IMG experience was. This similar where you talk having these coffee chats with people all over the world, or how were you setting up these coffee chats?
Hans: [00:10:14] I found that indeed it is hard. You were right. It is hard to to beat the the the image of not being prepared. Do you actually have the skills for this?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:27] Probably screaming lol. I mean, you had an undergrad, you then went did the masters.
Hans: [00:10:32] They saw it and they were like, okay, he's been doing interesting things and they invited me. But I mean, I flunked on technicals in certain interviews when they were really pressing. I got I got like a round three with ABN at their headquarters in Amsterdam at a commodities desk, mainly because of that internship with a consulting firm in the oil and gas market. But I mean, they realized, okay, this kid is not up for the job, Right? I mean, to be fair, I just want.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:57] To take you on just like basic oil markets, energy prices, stuff like that.
Hans: [00:11:01] I could get drivers, but as soon as you get to anything that requires some Excel word evaluations, I was I wasn't ready for that. I hadn't done it ever. So. Yeah, I had to really brush up on the theory. I realized that as I was applying for jobs and eventually it did work out at the IMG office in Zola, where they have the new corporate banking domestics. Yeah, for like the mid corporate. So the somewhat larger companies, but not the international multinationals. Yeah. And they do that for the entire northeast of the country that offices in Zola which is where I'm from. So I guess that also sort of probably helps. Yeah, it helps. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:48] And so you're going to those interviews, it wasn't as technical. They had a training program, they put you through that type of thing.
Hans: [00:11:55] Yeah, Yeah. The, I mean, I had to, I had to indeed go through the whole training program and I was being monitored on results and attentiveness and but they gave me the shot, you know, they, I think they, they reached the same conclusion as ABN did, but they had a different outcome.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:15] That's great. I love it. So you're there for almost two years. Tell me about that progress from like when you first started as. Was it an analyst or are they calling you now? They called you an associate because you've been doing stuff.
Hans: [00:12:27] Yeah. And so were you.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:28] Were you managing analysts?
Hans: [00:12:31] No, I wasn't. Now it's it doesn't work that way. It's not the same as in the US. In the US, indeed. But I mean, if you want to equate it, I was an analyst. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:42] Okay. And so how would it how did you feel kind of this first seven months or for six months? Was it really a struggle like or did you pick up the work pretty fast in terms of like the financial modeling, the valuation work where you put on deals right away? Were you pitching a lot? What was it like working there? And then how did you progress and then why start kind of looking elsewhere?
Hans: [00:13:03] I think a.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:04] Lot of questions that arose.
Hans: [00:13:06] But I think I got pretty. I got pretty good at certain aspects of the job. And then as things go within firms, if they realize you can do something well, you tend to do most of that. So it wasn't financial valuations, it wasn't a lot of modeling, especially those first seven months. That's not what I was doing. I was very busy with, know, searching databases, prospecting, identifying companies. We could reach out to making pitch decks the relationship managers would take as they would go out to those companies to see what kind of business we could do together, like liaise with ING corporate investments or the corporate finance teams or even entrepreneur wants to like retire and sell the firm, for instance. So a lot of that work, a lot of the less less technical, more human aspects, I guess.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:04] Yeah, Yeah. For sure. A lot of the pitch work that's that's tough. It's it's a lot of. So were you like after a year where you're like, okay I can't keep doing this or what was your thought process in terms.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:12] Of.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:12] Thinking of your next step. So I know eventually you are on the phone with IAC saying I'll, I'll go anywhere.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:19] Which is how you ended up in Egypt.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:20] But tell me.In Cairo right.
Hans: [00:14:22] Wanted to live like that badly. That's just just to be clear. But I really wanted to go abroad is as a short answer.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:29] You wanted to travel again?
Hans: [00:14:31] Yeah, I wanted the international experience. It wasn't necessarily aiming for the Middle East, but I mean, I was excited.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:39] Yeah. And so let's talk about that. So when did you start kind of looking for that job that I see? Did you talk to any other firms or was it IFC It was one of your first people you spoke. Were you first jobs you applied to and then got you got it right away and just went or what was that, that whole process, that job?
Hans: [00:14:56] I knew I had to reach a certain point, right? So I knew because while I was in D.C. at the embassy, I met some people at IFC headquarters, a Dutch woman who was very willing to meet with me. And it's always good to find your own nationality. By the way, that's a tip for anyone listening, but find people that have the same background within that international scene and the will. They're willing to put you on the on the bandwagon. But so she was very willing to like help. And she explained the process to me. And I learned that they do not hire a straight out of school. So you need to reach like the two year point.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:35] You're talking IFC in particular, IFC.
Hans: [00:15:37] Ifc doesn't really hire analysts that just graduated.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:41] And can you tell me about that firm? Like for people that aren't familiar with it, is it?
Hans: [00:15:44] Yeah, of course. So the IFC stands for International Finance Corporation, the private sector branch of the World Bank Group. And what they do is a lot of a lot of work. You could also explain as investment banking in emerging markets. Yeah, that might mean more to the people listening. So there's a development angle to the work. It's equity, it's debt, it's deals all over the world. But it's not just the returns that that get measured in terms of return on capital financially. It also gets measured in terms of did we create sustainable employment like did we provide those the firm we invest in provide better wages, things like that. So we tried to measure a sort of impact that helps emerging markets develop.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:41] And so people who are really interested in impact investing, this is like a dream job for them.
Hans: [00:16:46] Yeah, I guess. Yeah. I mean, impact investing is like the broader umbrella, right? Yeah. For a lot of these CFP firms that focus specifically on emerging markets, we work. I work with those. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:59] So you guys are actually putting capital to work as well. You weren't just advising, but you were advising as well. Or like, is there a fund?
Hans: [00:17:06] Yeah, there's advisory services as well. So you can think of just give an example. Let's say you're investing in a data plantation in Tunisia. You could offer advisory services on better irrigation techniques or you're investing in a company in.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:23] Would you charge for that advisory services though, like.
Hans: [00:17:26] Yeah, it's a revenue stream. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:28] Yeah. Because it's the private arm, right? So you're trying to actually make it sustainable and so is it still non profit.
Hans: [00:17:34] It's it is profits. Yeah. Right. Yeah. If we were, let's say put out loans and not make any profit on it, it would distort the existing financial sector. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:46] Okay. And so tell me a little bit about just your progress there, because you were there for a little over two years. What was it like when you got on a plane and flew to Egypt and.
Hans: [00:17:57] Yeah.
Hans: [00:17:57] Or even before you got there? Tell me about like what was your thought process when they said, okay, how about how about Egypt?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:04] The process was long and complicated and Egypt became clear like. Very late in the process, I had to go to London to do a modelling test. Then I had a panel interview with Mumbai, India, and at some point I had a video call with a senior investment officer in Jerusalem and then I spoke with Cairo and the last call was with Amman, Jordan. So I was very clueless till late, late until I got the letter that said it's going to be Cairo. It was it was interesting, but I mean, I really wanted to go. I wanted to do it. I said I would do it anywhere. So in a way, put your money where your mouth is. Right. And then and do it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:45] Got it. So you're you're kind of getting through this whole process. Sound like there was a lot of rounds of interviews.
Hans: [00:18:51] Yeah. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:52] How do you feel? Like? What do you think was the most important thing that allowed you to kind of successfully get through all those rounds?
Hans: [00:19:02] I think it's a combination of I think the CFA is one CFA program helped at that point. I clear level one did very well and they said and in the end they said okay, you need to continue obviously, but it's good you started and let's do it, we'll offer you a contract. So that's, that is a very important one. And I think in your letter if you are to apply some affinity with developing development is very important, of course, and the financial skills that CFA would speak to that if you're busy with that program, yeah, that's great.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:38] So those that combination kind of you feel like were the main reasons they extended you a contract.
Hans: [00:19:43] Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:44] Now when they did extend your contract, was this a pay raise or pay cut coming from IAG?
Hans: [00:19:50] It's depends on how you look at it because the IFC is United Nations. So it's tax exempt on income at least. So the number is is lower. But in the end, it's more. Does that make sense?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:02] Yeah. Yeah. So they're paying you 70% of what you are making, but you're keeping all of it.
Hans: [00:20:05] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:10] So do you mind giving us ranges in terms of what the pay is set with this type of role, like investment investment analyst at the IFC? Is it like a. You know, I'm not expecting it to be investment banking level pay in New York or something, but.
Hans: [00:20:22] It's it's I mean, it really I can't say because it depends so much on where you are. So there is a range for DC. I wasn't working in DC, so I can't tell you I'd be speculating. Yeah, there's a country adjustment, so I get less like in dollar terms, right? Because in Egypt everything is very, very cheap in relative sense. Yeah, but yeah, you're right. It's less, but it's also not, it's, it's not taxed. So you could.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:51] Be making like 30 or 40,000 USD but being super rich there.
Hans: [00:20:56] Yeah. That's fair to say. Yeah. I mean it goes.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:58] Rich but comfortable.
Hans: [00:21:00] It would go a long way and like, I'm not sure what the rent is for a very decent apartment in Manhattan, but I can tell you the rents for a very decent apartment in like diplomatic quarters. Cairo. I don't know. I had a very good place for like eight $900. Right.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:16] Okay, that's fair enough. That's helpful. Okay. So you're there. You're doing what type of work were you doing, date date farming, advisory or whatever?
Hans: [00:21:27] I was I wasn't picking that because a colleague did that and it was a good, clear example. But I haven't done a date farm. No colleagues, I did. I was working with a large agricultural poultry company in Egypt. Two different glass companies also located in Egypt, works on an ophthalmology that's eye care deal with a Saudi company looking to build a hospital somewhere in the Cairo area. Worked on a settlement also with Saudi sponsors looking to sell their stake in an Egyptian company. Morocco have worked on a deal that unfortunately didn't make it. That happens to in Morocco. And the thing the most important one and my highlight was Yemen food security deal, a big investment in the production of flour, sugar and dietary products in Yemen.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:24] Oh, cool. And so what was that like? Your your guys were helping kind of finance it?
Hans: [00:22:30] Yeah. Yeah. This we were leading like a syndicate syndicate.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:34] Yeah. Oh, it's awesome. Okay, so you're doing all that work, and then now you're thinking, okay, now I can apply to business school.
Hans: [00:22:42] Yeah, I think I was.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:44] Was it always like MBA? I wanted to. MBA in the US or were you thinking going back to, like potentially.
Hans: [00:22:50] No, it was always the US. That was pretty clear. I mean, the IFC also states if you want to go on and be an associate investment officer, which would be the next step, an MBA is really going to help you. So they kind of nudge you towards the MBA already. They don't say do it in the US, but I mean, I added that myself. I really wanted to go to the US.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:10] Let's go. And so tell me about that whole thing. You had to take the gym out while you were abroad, or how did that work?
Hans: [00:23:15] Yeah, I mean, if I was also in the Netherlands, sometimes I one thing I can say about IFC is they put like this whole remote working concept and stretch it to the extreme. Basically, like I could be in the Middle East, technically, like my laptop would be registered or logged in from the Middle East, but I would be sitting in the Netherlands somewhere. It's.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:37] So yeah. And then you had COVID, right? So like, tell me, how was it like were you flying back and forth a lot or were you mostly in the Netherlands during during lockdowns?
Hans: [00:23:46] And I was I think let's say if I had to put a percentage on it, I was in Egypt 60 to 70% of the time over the last two and half years.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:55] It's pretty tough.
Hans: [00:23:56] Yeah, I was here a lot, too. I took all the CFA exams for two and three in Amsterdam. I don't know that just felt comfortable. I knew the place, so yeah, I didn't want to change that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:08] That's awesome. So any final words of wisdom to either get into business school or send your path? And I mean, it sounds like you're on. You might consider going back to do similar type of work. Or what's your thought process for next steps?
Hans: [00:24:24] To be completely honest with you? Next steps going back is certainly an option. That would be great. I mean, I like this line of work, but. Development Finance is broader, right? There are more players involved. There are also companies on Wall Street venturing into this space. Jpmorgan started doing this in 2020. Not entirely the same role as the IFC is playing, but interesting nonetheless. Yeah, I'll I'll I'll explore over the next two years. I guess that's the answer.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:56] Do you know any other programs besides JPMorgan that are doing more kind of you're saying like impact investing type work or advisory work?
Hans: [00:25:03] Yes. And markets. I know Jp morgan, for effect, started the development finance institutes. They even call it the development finance team. They started doing this. I think the goal is $100 Billion to emerging markets per year. So it's like, geez, it sounds like a sizable operation. It will be as it as it ramps up. And the other players. I know Actis is is a private equity fund for infrastructure investments in the developing world, but I think they are London based. Not quite sure, but.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:34] It's called Actis. You said.
Hans: [00:25:35] Actors. Yes.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:36] It sounds familiar. Yeah, that's great. And then any, any tips for getting into a top business school?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:45] Have a very interesting.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:46] Background Like yours.
Hans: [00:25:47] Well, yeah, I think. Yeah. If you if you're like me and you know that I can do seven hundreds on the mats, but like it, I'll barely hit the mark, you know, like, I'll be just above it. I got 710 in the end. That's not, that's not going to be it for you, You know, that's not going to be the the factor that pulls you across the finish line. So try to spice up what you do, I guess. Do some interesting things, take some risks. I hope that helps.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:16] I love it. Yeah, That's great. Really appreciate the time that you took today.
Hans: [00:26:21] Yeah, You're welcome. It was great being.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:23] And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis dot com. And till next time.
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