WSO Podcast | E237: The Culture of Wall Street from a former VP in Prime Brokerage at JP Morgan
In this episode, Wais shares his path working at Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, and JP Morgan for over 20 years. His path on Wall Street includes stints in prime brokerage and talent management. His unique perspective into Wall Street culture shows in his passion to help facilitate change and help solve attrition issues at the junior level. Learn what advice he has for students looking to break into the industry and what he thinks is the key element for success.
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WSO Podcast Episode 237 Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief Monkey. And this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me as I talk to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, Wais shares his path working at Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, and JP Morgan for over 20 years. His path on Wall Street includes stints in prime brokerage and talent management. His unique perspective into Wall Street culture shows his passion to help facilitate change and help solve attrition issues at the junior level. Learn what advice he has for students looking to break into the industry and what he thinks is the key element for success. Enjoy. So, Wais, welcome to the Wall Street Oasis podcast.
Wais Achikzad: [00:01:01] Thank you, Patrick. It's an honor to be here. Privilege to enter the world of monkeys and bananas.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:08] It'd be great if you could just give the listeners a short summary of your bio.
Wais Achikzad: [00:01:11] Sure, Patrick. Well, I've been in the, you know, last 22, 23 years. Um, Barclays Capital. JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs. 14 of those years at JP Morgan. And I just recently left the industry to kind of start my own initiative. All those lessons learned. And there's so much of it with regards to leadership. You know, I worked in a little bit. I worked obviously in the business and majority of the time. But I think I have a good understanding of sort of the infrastructure of these institutions kind of how they work and want to add value and bring value to our next generation who I think are so talented and potentially a little misunderstood. And I'm trying to sort of bridge those gaps also generationally with sort of a more strategic initiative that I'm working on. But in the end, I just want to bring value to our next generation. You guys have a great audience.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:00] So that's where they're listening. They're listening right now. So that's great. Thank you for taking the time. So I guess, you know, going back, you know, from undergrad, you kind of came out and you were doing more like consulting type work. You were I know you ended up in prime brokerage at JP, but can you talk a little bit about like just the different roles throughout the firm?
Wais Achikzad: [00:02:17] Sure. It was interesting. My indoctrination into Wall Street really was my first big role was at Barclays Capital. I got into the world of collateral management at the time where my first client, actually my biggest client and maybe they teach this now in school, was long-term capital. So my job so my job was to monitor their exposure in equity derivatives, right? So I was actually calculating Mark to market and seeing where there was collateral needed. And, you know, if there's a shortfall, we'd call for more margin. So, you know, here I am just out of school and they're like, you know, I didn't know any better. These hedge funds you're assigned various hedge. I think I had Renaissance Capital. I had long-term capital. I had, um, a couple of others. And I had to just at that time, because of the technology, we had to kind of manually do mark-to-market calculations and they would send me their blotter. I would look at hours, I'd reconcile the two to make sure there's, you know, there's no it's crazy how we've developed. But anyway, long story short, as some of you guys might know, long-term capital sort of collapsed. They made some risky bets in Asia and Russia, and they were highly leveraged. Obviously, our bank was vested very much so. We were part of a consortium to help bail them out. But what I was doing is every day I had to go to this is me at a 23-year-old going to Bob Diamond's office.
Wais Achikzad: [00:03:34] He was the CEO of Barclays Capital in New York Times. Every day I had to go to their CEO's office and give him a summary of where our exposure was and how much they were short collateral, right? So it was like I didn't know any better, you know, But I was doing the job and I was putting the data together and I was going to his office. I didn't realize sort of the global ramifications and kind of but at a young age, it taught me sort of how to comport myself, you know, under trying times, under duress, because at times it was like you need to have this data within 20 minutes. You know, Mr. Diamond needs to see you. Right? So so, you know, again, it just. You know, school didn't prepare me for that. School didn't prepare me for that. So I had to kind of learn to be disciplined, to be, you know, when you communicate to the seniors, it doesn't matter how old you are. You know, if you're if you're exposed to an MD at a junior age, like, you know, you got to have that self-respect to say that, hey, I can hold my own with these people. Yeah. And prove it to myself.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:32] What was the there's a famous book about long-term Capital Management. It was. What was it called? Do you remember? It was…
Wais Achikzad: [00:04:41] No, there's a lot of…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:43] We'll put it in the… we'll put it in the show notes. But it's something like it's it basically chronicles the whole collapse and the lead up to the collapse in terms of I think they had a lot of strategies that were like all betting on like mean reversion type stuff on interest rates and then basically just levered it out. So like the returns were amazing for a long time.
Wais Achikzad: [00:05:02] Well, the interesting thing is that they hired all these incredible mathematicians. I think it was the black Scholes model, actually. Was it? Scholes was actually on their board. So it sort of enticed these big investment banks to say, we want a piece of that. Right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): Right. And very interesting. But anyway, that's amazing, right out of school you're on that…
Wais Achikzad: [00:05:19] Right out of school. I got a dose of that. And so I was involved in those discussions and the, you know, sort of the presentations and all those things. And for that, you know…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:31] Well, actually before we go there, you're an undergrad. Are you knowing finance is your thing? Are you thinking, you know…
Wais Achikzad: [00:05:36] That's A yeah, great question. I studied finance at Boston University. You know, I took the sort of the, the investment banking this that you hear all these things and what should I get into? I just wanted a job at the time. Yeah. So I interviewed in whatever job I got in the industry. I didn't know any better at the time. Now there's so much more information at your disposal, obviously Wall Street Oasis, and there's so many great platforms and so coming into the industry, I kind of got one of those operations type jobs and it led to at the time, mortgage-backed securities was hot, right? So we were getting into, into was into that and then ultimately into Barclays getting in that collateral management space, which then morphed into a prime brokerage space, which is more of sort of what the crux of what I've done most of my career. And, you know, whether it's equities, fixed income or foreign exchange. So…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:26] You know, who is familiar with prime brokerage is a service.
Wais Achikzad: [00:06:29] Prime brokerage is just, you know, facilitating securities lending in the markets. There are a lot of complex products where, you know, these investment banks are selected as prime brokers. Mortgage Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, and JP Morgan are the biggest ones per se. And luckily I've been all three of them and they sort of facilitate, you know, those transactions in the markets act as a custodial service, you know, leverage transaction, securities lending. So there's a lot there. And you can get involved in many different capacities. I was mostly in client services, so that was sort of a front office job facilitating, you know, the relationship with the hedge funds and sort of appeasing their requests and making sure that, you know, they had all they needed to in terms of reporting and just giving them day to day sort of reports on kind of how things were going, but also addressing any of their issues that inevitably arose on a day to day basis. So and then that sort of morphed into leadership positions and taking on teams and got really interested in that and helping working with especially loved working with the young talent always. But that's sort of a short summary of kind of how we got into the into the industry and then ultimately how it sort of progressed.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:43] It's great. And so like you were like coming out at a school, it was more like, just get a job. And you studied finance. There's a little more operationally focused. Then eventually you it was the collateral management like MBS-type work and then collateral management.
Wais Achikzad: [00:07:57] Derivatives, equity derivatives. And that's where the collateral management sort of stemmed. And I did get involved in collateral management at Morgan Stanley. And then you sort of just sort of find your way and, you know, finding your purpose and your why in this industry is not easy. Obviously, as if you want to get into investment banking, which I know a lot of our audience is keen on doing. So it's, you know, trying to get into it for the right reasons and understanding your purpose as to your intentions. Are you in it to make money? Are you in it to just to find wealth in that glamour? That's so you know, our industry is so noted for but also understanding sort of what the realities on the ground are. Right? And preparing yourself for that. And I think with myself, I didn't know what to expect. You know, like I said, I didn't have all the social media and all these things to make myself aware of what was to come. And I had to learn for it for myself and just sort of be in it and kind of figure out which area do I want to go into…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:53] You're telling me there was no fin memes back in 95?
Wais Achikzad: [00:08:58] Believe it or not, no. But God knows, I could have used some back then to help guide me. But in the end, I found myself and found my calling and leadership and those kinds of things where I knew I could help groom sort of our next generation and take care of those around me is so important to me. And it took some time to figure all that out. But ultimately we did.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:19] Yeah. And talk to me about your time at JP because you were there for a good 14 years. Talk to me about just the internal promotions and the decisions like how would you go about, you know, talking about raises, how would you go about talking about like a lateral transition or even knowing where you wanted to go? Like, how did you map out that career? Did you get a mentor or what happened?
Wais Achikzad: [00:09:37] Yeah, no, phenomenal question. So obviously you talk about this a lot. Networking is so incredibly important and the way that you network is key. And I think, you know, so many just are. Shy to do so. And if they're working in a particular area, you know, it's good to sort of venture onto different areas and attend. There's so many forums that are available to you and there's so many discussions like out of outside of ours. And what I would do is I would simply network in terms of initially it's your peers, right? So if you're supporting a particular group, you know, who are your stakeholders, right? And you have impact for those stakeholders. So let's get to know who those stakeholders are, What do they do? What are their functions? Learn them and then who are the players who are sort of the decision makers and get an audience with them and reach out to them. And you'll be surprised to know that, look, just because they're an MD or an ED, it's not that they don't want to talk to you. They're actually nine times out of ten. They'll be thrilled to pass on the information and the knowledge that they have to speak to you. Now, you don't want to go above your management, so you want to be fully transparent to let them know that, hey, you know, if you speak to your manager, I'd love to do some networking just to learn a little bit more about these other areas and, I think skip level meetings are also important, right? So if you're speaking to your manager having that discussion to their manager and sort of gaining that exposure.
Wais Achikzad: [00:11:04] And so I think networking, so number one, it's networking and how you do that is really, really important. There's an art to it and I think you guys teach that really well. And then the second thing is just in terms of having those discussions on getting to that next level or getting that next job, a lot of it is just your own research. Do this networking, just gathering information and then being transparent with those around you. Like if your manager, if you're not happy at your job, for example, you know, be honest and just say, Hey, there's some things I'm going through, kind of feel like I need a change or this or that. And, but transparency is key. So just to be honest with, you don't want to sort of do things behind someone's back. People do it all the time. Sometimes it's a necessity. But I think there's a way to do it also…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:56] And I can tell you, I felt like it was a necessity, you know when I was transitioning out of investment banking to private equity. I didn't feel really supported. I felt like I had to go to these interviews at 5:00, at 6 a.m. out in Connecticut, taking trains at five, 4 a.m., 5 a.m. to get there, coming back. And so, like, and it was known and sure enough, when I said I was leaving, it was a, hey, no, you should stay. And it was a lot of like.
Wais Achikzad: [00:12:22] So think externally. Of course, like externally you got to do what you got to do internally. It's a little more challenging and a little more, you know, it's sensitive, right? So absolutely. Externally, you got to do what you got to do. You're not obviously you're not going to tell your manager that you're interviewing externally. Although with my teams, I always said, Hey, let me know if you're interviewing externally. I'd love to help you get there. There are those managers, believe it or not, that will do that. Very rare, though. But internally there's an art to how to navigate and how and then those discussions about comp and you know, there's just so much out there tools in terms of arming yourselves with you know trying to gain those tools and that confidence to be able to have those discussions because they're not easy. And it could be make or break. It could be that your manager hears this from you and like, you know what? I don't want this problem anymore. And then they'll start working to get you out, to manage you out ultimately, right? So, so the way that you actually bring up those discussions can be taught.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:19] How did you manage that? Because you had a long run and you made several transitions. How did you…
Wais Achikzad: [00:13:24] I did, With me, It was just again, it was honesty. And for me, I'd like to learn about different areas. And, you know, if you were sort of pigeonholed in one particular area and I think that could work against you.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:36] You also weren't jumping after like six months or trying to it looks like you were jumping after like three to an average of like two and a half, two years. So like…
Wais Achikzad: [00:13:46] Yeah, That's about right. I mean, you got to absorb the work that you're doing and learn it and then, you know, every, every area has a shelf life, especially if you're in those sort of roles where like if you're going down the investment banking path, you know, these days it's clear that most people want to go into PE or VCs or hedge funds ultimately after a couple of years, use that as a launching pad. But I think even in that in those when people want to take those paths, I think they can actually look at things a lot differently internally at a... if they're at a prestigious investment bank, there's just a world, a world of opportunities there. And sometimes we chase the money or what we think is more glamorous when in fact in the long run it may be to your detriment and your mental health and all those things. And, you know, there's again, there's an art to making those decisions and understanding sort of the macro rather than the here and now and what are our peers doing and, you know, and trying to be competitive in that regard.
Wais Achikzad: [00:14:42] And at those times, I didn't have those pressures. I was doing what's right, what was right for me. I think it's temperament and knowing your own temperament is so important when you make these choices and knowing the culture of these various teams and whether or not you can withstand that culture, whether or not you can thrive in that culture, you know, whether or not you could flourish in that culture. If you're just going there without that information because, oh, it's rewarding in that from a compensation perspective or from a prestige perspective, but that once you're there, you don't have the temperament to succeed in that culture, then it's going to backfire on you and you'll be miserable and you'll have mental health issues and eventually you'll quit and it'll look bad on your resume.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): You could or you get fired.
Wais Achikzad: Oh you could or you get fired. Exactly. You'll get exposed one way or the other. Yeah. So understanding, like that's all has to do with self-awareness and really examining oneself and being objective.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:34] I totally agree. I mean, we had, I had a live yesterday, live streaming like I had so many of the questions were like, Can I get to investment banking from this? Can I get to investment banking from that? And I'm just like, Yeah, do you really want this? You know, like you realize you're going to be sleeping at the office. So a lot of people look at the comp and they look at the hours and they say, Oh yeah, yeah, that's 80-hour week average. But they don't realize like that scales up to over 100 hours a week. Some weeks, like you're not going to be sleeping. And it's actually painful.
Wais Achikzad: [00:16:02] It is, It is.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:03] And it's hard to…
Wais Achikzad: [00:16:06] It's hard to live it. And then once they're living it, then it's like that's when the regret sets in. And but, you know, just any time you want to make a move or even now, if you're thinking, what should I do? Do I want to go into PE or do I want to work at a hedge fund or like take the time to research it? There's so much information on YouTube now, you know, obviously, Patrick and Wall Street Oasis is a wealth of information, but do the due diligence, but also understand yourself and your capabilities and your don't stretch yourself to a degree you can, but know your limits, right? As a person, as a human being, and know what your capacities are. And because, listen, those industry, those areas are not for the faint of heart. Right? And…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:47] Has the pendulum swung too far away from banking to buyside. So like, that's the other thing you said, like, oh yeah, because everyone's like. Private equity… Private equity… Private equity.
Wais Achikzad: [00:16:55] Well, I'll tell you a funny story. I was invited the to speak to at the University of Pennsylvania, Wharton undergrad finance club. Wonderful students. Wonderful. I'm sure hopefully some of the listeners I know they're very well aware of what you do. Great kids, super bright, obviously. And look, some of them are already plotting their exits from investment banking already and they're sophomores. Right? Just to say that look, we've heard this about investment banking. Is that true? And how do I get to PE? And I know that you know, it's such it's so more rewarding and less hours and more money and, you know, and my friend, you know, who's a senior, just graduated and is working at this, you know, I won't mention names, but and he's suffering and he's having headaches. He can't sleep at night, but he's getting paid. And, you know, so but the fact that they were already plotting their exits was startling to me. Right? And I think it's sort of a wake-up to our industry leaders just to say, look, let's talk about culture and all these things and how do we improve things for our next generation. Otherwise, we're going to lose the best and the brightest to startups, to fintechs, to, you know, we don't want to, I don't want to see that happen to our industry.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:06] Yeah, it's interesting. You know, going back to the the 90s, if you look at a chart of just average analyst attrition or average analyst tenure rather, across the banks, I think it was at like two and a half three years back then. It's, I think, yeah, close to a year now.
Wais Achikzad: [00:18:22] Yeah, Poets and quants, I'm sure you're aware of it. Great resource. You've actually provided them some data. They have some a great article about just that and how attrition has significantly increased just in the past. I think COVID contributed to it, obviously, but I think culture and where we're at, remember Wall Street, you guys know, it's an old, old institution that has not changed their ways and we need, you know, and whereas the world has changed.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:48] Yeah. And the efforts that have been made around it. I mean, if you think about like when someone is valuable, that second year of their analysts is when they're really that first year, the first six months at least, they're pretty useless. And so at least for me, I was no background. So like my point is like that's a huge loss, losing so much in that second year. It's a massive loss. So I guess, what do you what's your thoughts on like just what has been rolled out in terms of pencil like some banks are doing like pencils down on Friday? Some people are saying, you know, one weekend off per month.
Wais Achikzad: [00:19:23] All right. Look, I think at the end of the day, those things are nice to haves. You know, the work-from-home things and all those things. But let's face it, an MD who's now reached that level and is now dealing with junior bankers and those who are going into their second year, let's say they kind of have that inkling that eventually they're going to leave. Right. So why waste that energy on? Further educating them or spending more time with them. It's sort of like this cycle, this never-ending cycle that just sort of perpetuates itself, where if you only invested the time with at an MD level with your first-year analysts, imagine the impact it could have on them in their output, but also in their actual desire to stay and perhaps take on a bigger role or to do different things regardless of what's out there in the markets for them. Right? And I think that's where we need to kind of shift that mindset because that MD is loath to make that extra effort to try to connect with that first-year analyst or but in fact, they can, you know, and think extra snacks and, you know, work from home too, you know, another extra day or those things are nice to haves right But in the end it comes down to the fundamentals of do you feel valued as an employee?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:35] Yeah. And I know that some of the banks have been doing a lot more analyst associate promotes even like second years or getting associate titles in some cases.
Wais Achikzad: [00:20:43] And they're throwing more money at them. But we know that that's not. Yeah but that's not I mean that was a big thing that, you know Goldman did and…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:51] It's been shown not to, it's been shown also not to like really make that big of an impact, I think in many…
Wais Achikzad: [00:20:58] Exactly. And yeah and we're dealing with, you know, a lot of variables at play. And I think we need to understand what those variables are rather than, you know, monetary gains or those things.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:07] Yeah, it's super interesting. So, okay, so you're, you know, you're at JP for a long time, you know, VP in prime brokerage for a while, and then you made a change. Tell me about like that transition specifically, and what were you, you know, it was to kind of go work in talent. So…
Wais Achikzad: [00:21:22] Yeah, That's, So I wanted to ultimately I knew I wanted to, to launch my own initiative. And, you know, like I said earlier, leverage all my experience and kind of help that next generation, but also our current leaders. I wanted to understand sort of the hiring process. How was a hiring manager for so many years working with recruiters? And I got to be honest. And for any recruiters out there, no knock on you guys. But look, being in the business and working with recruiters, they don't know the business, right? They don't know the business. And when I took this role in recruiting, I was a lead in front office recruiting for a prominent organization. You know, one of my strategies was, hey, why don't we? Recruiters take part in the training programs that the analysts do. As far as the subject matters. And can you give us access to those training programs? Ultimately we were not allowed access for legal reasons. But what I was trying to do was distill industry information and knowledge so that when they're speaking to potential candidates, they're not speaking at that generic level, right? Where they have some ability to communicate with that language. And I think, you know, for me, it was to go in and learn sort of the intricacies of recruiting, what it takes to get in the mechanics of it, but also to help transform it, because I like to transform teams and processes.
Wais Achikzad: [00:22:47] And I thought, you know what? I know there's a gap in recruiting because I lived it. I can't tell you how many times I would take a recruiter to the side and say, Let me spend half an hour with you. Let me really go through the job with you. And what this is what I need from you. And I would actually give them a, you know, a breakdown on prime brokerage or, you know, custody and what that means. And, so you have sort of the intangibles that recruiters could be good at, sort of ascertaining those intangibles from a candidate as well as then the specifics and the technicals and all those, But that's the area that we lacked, right? And so for me, it was important to learn sort of the that space and take that knowledge. Now that I know it, now that I know well kind of how recruiting works, what they look for, kind of the, working with the hiring managers and sort of their mentalities. I can take all that knowledge plus all my business knowledge and everything I've done with leadership and kind of translate that into my new initiative, which is more around coaching and leadership consulting and individuals that need sort of a guide through how to navigate their way through corporate America.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:54] Let's get to that soon. One last question, though, in terms of the talent acquisition manager type role, did you see in your time at Morgan, did you see specifically, you know, the shift, I guess it had already happened to hire you or your opinion on like these video interviews trying to open it up? You know, I think the line from the banks is that it's opening up a wider breath and ability to scan more potential candidates. I'd love to hear your thoughts on like those.
Wais Achikzad: [00:24:24] From a scale perspective. Definitely, But I can tell you. Logistically, there was a lot of challenges, you know, and from an efficiency standpoint, I think we fell off a little bit in terms of just the coordination, the technical issues sometimes. And you lose sort of, that authentic, the person behind the camera like they lose their authentic self and you know you could tell sometimes some weren't comfortable with it. And how do I know that I'm seeing the best version of yourself, right? So honestly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:58] Super awkward, like looking away like the camera and like.
Wais Achikzad: [00:25:02] Exactly. So I got to be honest, I'm not a fan of Higher View. It certainly is used on a larger scale now. And I know those that are listening in, you're obviously going to be partaking in any of that. And there's a certain skill to be able to prepare yourself for those types of interviews. And I know you guys have a lot of that content as well to help prepare you for it but yeah, I'm not a big fan of it, but it's there.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:24] Yeah, it's interesting. It's definitely it's after I went through all the recruiting, that sort of kind of rolling out. And so I wanted to get your thoughts on it in terms of. Yeah, so, you know, you're at Morgan Stanley and then you started up your own thing. Tell us a little bit more about Zen culture solutions and maybe tell people where they can find you what it's all about. And yeah, I'd love to just…
Wais Achikzad: [00:25:45] Yeah, So thank you, Patrick. Yeah. Zen Culture Solutions with an I believe in the Zen mindset was a big Kobe Bryant fan for all those basketball fans out there. And he employed sort of the Zen principles taught to him by his coach, Phil Jackson at the time. But I truly believe in sort of being at peace with one's self in anything that you do, whether in your personal life or at work and in leadership positions. You know, unless you have that calm within you, you know when you go through turmoil when you go through these rough periods. I was there in 2008 at Jp Morgan. I just got the job at Jp Morgan when, you know, crap hit the fan. And, you know, we had that financial crisis and, you know, surviving those that rough terrain during those times, it required a certain inner peace to be able to function, you know, sort of with your mind in a space where you feel like you can make decisions in a calm and in a way where you're, you know, you have your wits about you, so to speak. So I'm taking those principles that I learned and now applying it to this new initiative that I'm launching, a company called have launched Zen Culture Solutions. And I simply wanted my objectives are twofold Patrick, Simple as that. And that is. I love. I believe in our next generation. I really do. And I believe that there's so much more advanced than we were. The ability to, you know, the technology at their disposal.
Wais Achikzad: [00:27:05] Um, so I love working with our young people and I just feel like they're so talented. And what I'm trying to do is bridge that gap with they're getting trying to get into the finance world. Well, guess what? As I said earlier, finance is an old institution. These institutions are very, you know, long-standing. And they just exactly haven't changed their ways. So what I'd like to do, what I'm trying to do is to speak to our leaders in our industry today to say, hey, we have some solutions to help you change the way that you look at leadership in a way where it's more conducive to our world today, you know, especially with our next generation. And there's a lot that goes into that and have specific program. And there's a company called Culture Plus that I'm working with. They wrote a book called Love as a Business Strategy. I know it sounds, you know, interesting, like love on Wall Street. But, you know, let's face it, it's not what you think. And it'd be tough love, right? Um, but I think it will it would be a lot more beneficial to our employees that are not only coming into the industry, but that are there today. Now, the second item that I'm working on is those that are looking to get into our industry. I want to arm them with the realities of what's to come. Guys, you're facing a crap storm, you know, like it is an avalanche of, Just one challenge and obstacle after another.
Wais Achikzad: [00:28:31] And if you don't have those tools and know Wall Street, Oasis does a great job of trying to prep you for that with interviewing with sort of the behavioral aspects of what you need. There is, It is a lot more complex once you're actually in there and I'm going out on speaking engagements, universities have another one next week to kind of inform our perspective of entry. You know, students right now that are looking to get into our industry, but also those that are even first year, second year, how to survive and then how to thrive. So not only how to gain entry into the industry, how to actually make it and survive and sort of coach them through everything that they're going to face and sort of almost have a blueprint on how to do that just because I've seen everything I've been through, you know, financial crisis, I've been through management changes and promotion processes and all these things that you're going to face, compensation discussions, networking, all these things that I think can benefit our next generation, but also the tools that perhaps. You know, maybe we're not focusing on enough, you know, the self-awareness. I talked about knowing your temperament, knowing are you a good fit for. You know, are you a good fit for IB? Are you a good fit? You know, how do you how can you be objective with yourself so as to have those discussions? And if you're not, well, let's. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:54] It Sounds like you're doing the speaking engagements, but is the business is Zen culture solutions? Is it really more of like a B2B play where you're hoping that the investment banks will come in and hire you to help change their system in their culture? Or is it more of like or is it also a I should say not or but is it also like going B to C where you're like, you know, taking on mentees and stuff like that? Or is it kind of?
Wais Achikzad: [00:30:18] Yes, it's absolutely both. So I'm working with larger organizations. We're the aim is to help transform cultures in a way which Wall Street's never seen before, but it's necessary. We're armed with so much data. And actually, a company I'm working with was a software company. Actually, they still have the software company, but we're implementing a lot of data analytics to illustrate to these companies and organizations. We're not limiting it just to the bulge brackets. We're going all at all levels. And so that's one aspect of what I'm doing on the leadership side. But I also want to, you know, I'm comfortable in coaching and career coaching. Those that want to be are aspiring leaders or those that are just struggling with their day to day that they feel like they want to quit. And how do I deal with a bad manager and my toxic culture and I'm having trouble with this colleague? We all face that, right? Faced with it for 20 was faced with those instances for 20-plus years. So…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:15] We had a topic today on the weekly wrap-up pod that was all about, How do I deal with an associate that's throwing me under the bus has no social skills.
Wais Achikzad: [00:31:24] Exactly. Oh my God. There's so much of that and there's so much of that. And you can just throw your hands in the air and be like, You know what? Quit the easy thing to do. And I'm not gonna lie. I did it a couple times, but that sets you back career-wise, right? So if you just keep in mind, guys, if you quit a job without having a job, it's going to set you back. So I'm here to help you and prevent you from doing that and to guide you through those murky waters and the challenges that you're inevitably going to face or are facing and can give you a good roadmap as to how to handle that career-wise and decision-making-wise.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:56] I love it. I think we need a lot more of this. I hope that the banks are listening and I hope they'll, you know, take, you know, hire you to come in and help with that. I mean, I'm curious, like. Obviously, you talk about the nice-to-haves. I'm curious what like if you had your ideal investment bank or you could do whatever you wanted. The CEO said tomorrow who Lanfen or CEO from Houlihan comes in and says, Yes, you can do whatever you want with this. Like, how are you going to re, how are you going to change things? I'd be curious, like what you'd go after first?
Wais Achikzad: [00:32:29] I'd love to answer that, Sure. So I luckily I have a great friend at Google in the Bay Area. And because I'm a student of leadership, I asked him, Hey, can I spend some time on your campus? And he, you know, he invited me and he managed a team. So I got to spend some time with his team. And I actually got in on a couple of meetings where they were talking about sort of development of products and those things. And I saw how they operated. And, you know, Wall Street is entrenched in hierarchy, right? And so, look, you need hierarchy to a degree, right? You earn your stripes, you're going to reach certain levels, you're going to earn titles. But what I learned at Google and this is what I employed on my teams anyway, but Google sort of affirmed to me sort of the way that they conduct their business and obviously they're successful. They are, but they just as much rather hear an idea from a first-year employee and someone who'd been there ten years. And that person had the same voice as the person who had been here ten, 15 years and they were just as engaged, if not more so, and they were given a platform. And in, you know, in our industry, sometimes you got to kind of earn your stripes so to speak, you know, And I'm of the belief that look, even if you're a first year and you have a great idea and you have a voice, I want to hear you.
Wais Achikzad: [00:33:49] If I'm an MD, I want to hear you. Right? And I think what we need to do is focus a little less on the hierarchy, you know, and I think an organization like BlackRock is phenomenal. You know, the hierarchy, they sort of practice that in an industry where it's not normal, where hierarchies sort of not as common. Yes, there are those titles, but there's less hierarchy and kind of how they you know, the MDS make themselves readily available. They walk the floor and they talk and to everyone. But that's kind of my ideal environment where there's more of an emphasis on employee experience rather than the client experience. Yes, you're going to have to go after that big deal. And yes, you're going to have to go after that, you know, the MNAs that are out there and you're chasing all of that. And, but if you focus on the employee, they're going to inherently want to. Because you're invested in them. They're going to invest in that process, in those clients and their clients more naturally, right? They're less apt to do so if you don't invest in them. And that's when you have to throw money at them. Those things. So what I'm saying is let's…
Wais Achikzad: [00:34:59] Crane and arm our leaders to be more equipped with how to focus more on the employee. And we don't have those tools. I can tell you for a fact, because I was very involved in, Well, JPMorgan's learning and development program, that there was less of an emphasis on those types of skills for our leaders and actually brought something to the attention of our CEO at the time, which was actually. Predicated on developing that foundation for leaders. What you call it, what you will emotional intelligence, self-awareness, mindfulness, all those things. But ultimately with a message that let's focus on our employees because they will take care of the client afterwards. Right? And so my ideal place would be where we focus more on employee development. Give them the more tools to learn better, So better learning programs, better development programs. And because we've placed such an emphasis on the client and it's such a competitive industry, you have to, Right? but you've got to look at the macro. Don't look at the, Let's look at the long game and be like, Hey, if we can sustain a culture of where employees are happy and there's our retention is higher with our employees, well guess what? Clients are going to be that much happier because they know they have the same people they're working with for more than just a year or two.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:09] Yeah, you have more third-year analysts and second-year analysts around…
Wais Achikzad: [00:36:14] Which is rare. But guess what? That'll be your competitive advantage as an investment bank, right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:19] Yeah. No, I think, you know, when you were when you were speaking, I was thinking of like, just the inherent structures of how things work down from staffing all the way up through like, you know, how they, you know, how they staff a team of like has to be one analyst, one associate, one this and like it's very rigid.
Wais Achikzad: [00:36:36] It doesn't have to be that way. It really doesn't. And I think the sooner we break down those barriers, I think it'll be an incredible transformation in terms of culture, but also ultimately productivity. You know, look, we only have one life to live. We can choose to come into work and be unhappy and make a lot of money, but we're going to go home unhappy. We're going to take it to our families. We're going to do we want that? Do we really want that? You know and look at the mental health stats. We talked about that earlier. I mean, people are getting illnesses that they never had years ago, and this industry is not helping. It's more conducive to those types of illnesses when we're at our most fragile.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:15] Yeah. We're releasing an investment banking working conditions survey. We're going to be our third year, I believe. And it was really bad year one. It was middle COVID last year. It was still really bad. Slightly better though, from COVID…
Wais Achikzad: Yeah, That's amazing isn't it?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): Where it comes out this year. I mean.
Wais Achikzad: [00:37:35] Wait, Patrick, Was that the data that I saw from poets and quants? It came from...
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:41] We surveyed, I think it was like 600 mostly analysts and first and second years and some associates as well. But we will. Yeah, I think we need to get going on that and we're trying to release it in March, but it's about this time every year. I'll be curious to see what it is, but. Yeah, super fascinating. I just, my concern is like. I think the way banking works because it's not a software business where you're building products that require like it's almost like to get in, to get into Google as a software engineer. The expectation is like you're pretty brilliant on a technical side and all this stuff for investment banking. Like the requirements, they're often screening for work ethic more than pure analytical ability or…
Wais Achikzad: [00:38:32] I understand that. And I was right in the middle of that screening. but let's face it, the human elements take over and work ethic and human elements. And look, I understand the competitive nature of investment banking especially. Right? And deal-making and pressures that going into it and what's at stake. I get all that, but the human elements will never, to me, never trump any of the gravity of all of those what we deem…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:00] Yeah, I just think, how do you put in the incentives for the MDS who are now in a sales role and getting maybe a percentage of whatever they close? How do you put them not to not to abuse the junior resources? That's the hard, that's…
Wais Achikzad: [00:39:13] Data, like data on attrition data on what the cost is to your bottom line of the firm. When there is that attrition? employee engagement will increase. And I just read at Forbes, just had an article where if you focus more on the employee experience, your productivity is going to go up four times more than if you focus on client experience. So, you know, we're all data-driven, especially in finance.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:34] 100% agree. I just think that the incentives at the MD level, after first off, they've been put through the wringer coming up, number one. Number two, they're focused on their bottom line. It's really, it feels even at a bank with a good brand, oftentimes it feels like there are these independent businesses all vying for the same resources. And so, like, I think that dynamic and maybe it's it comes down to compensation structure, how people are compensated. Maybe more of their compensation needs to be tied with the overall firm's performance then I know the CEOs of the banks, Yeah, that's great. But then your top performers are going to leave and go get paid by you. So I think that like, you have a lot of very complex dynamics. I absolutely agree. Like if you can get the juniors, it's absolutely competitive advantage. I think the hard part is the incentives, getting the incentives right. In terms of the way the structure, in terms of the way it's a client services deal. So you're always going to be they always want to be on call and then there's no negative downside personally in the short run to them by using the junior resources.
Wais Achikzad: [00:40:36] Listen, you're right. Those are the realities. And I think I'm not saying that what we're trying to do is, first of all, can happen overnight. But I think we need to talk about it more…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:46] Absolutely. And the CEO should really care about what you're saying. Really, really care about what you're saying. It's, But then how do you get your MDs to fall in line? Right? And so you do the training, but like, how do you get them to really fall in line when there's, you know. Yeah, that's, I think, that's where, where the rubber meets the road and where I think there needs to be like that. Really.
Wais Achikzad: [00:41:06] I welcome the challenge. And I think, look, I think there's always a solution to a problem. It's just that we're so used to accustomed to doing things the way we have for so long. And like, we're so entrenched in those beliefs. So if you're going to believe that, that there's no way around it, then ultimately that's what you're going to have and you're going to go into that cycle.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:25] I mean, there's it's, I think it's a no-brainer that it would be better for the firm overall.
Wais Achikzad: [00:41:31] Yeah, but I get you, Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:32] I think it's the hard part of the challenge. I think is not showing data not even showing data that's true. I think the banks realize it's a problem. I think it's getting the people at the top to be incentivized properly so you don't lose them but that they care enough not to do that and maybe some of it's around EQ and you know, talking about culture and mindfulness and all this stuff, I just, I don't know, Like I think it's really hard. I've struggled thinking about this too, because it's like, what do we play? What's the role that Wall Street Oasis plays?
Wais Achikzad: [00:42:05] To be honest with you, Yes, to be honest with you, those are valid questions Patrick, And you're absolutely right. Now, when you talk about these concepts, I brought up a lot of them certainly don't play in certain areas of the bank. Right? Or less apt to be more effective because of what you just described. But there are you know, banks are large and there's different areas. Operations are cost centers deemed cost centers where they've deemed an expense. So guess what? Employees are treated that way. Right? And so there are at-risk management and all these other technology even. I mean, there are so many areas where you can employ some of these strategies where human capital is not being used in its optimal way. And so you're ultimately going to bleed, you know, through losing employees, you're going to bleed talent and then spend that much more money trying to retain others or trying to hire other talent. But I do think in the investment banking space, there's still things that we can do, perhaps looking at the compensation structures. But I do think there's elements of how we can work with the MDS and actually, I'm working with one MD at a, I can't name the firm where we're talking about these things because he's telling me I can't, I cannot connect with these my junior, you know, my analysts. And he's having a hard time working with them and he's just basically throwing his hands up in the air and be like, I just can't do it anymore. And he's just resigned to the fact that he's going to keep losing them and he's less incentivized to have to invest. Because what I'm saying is spend more time with them. Right? And impart your wisdom and all that you've learned. And it's a breaking out of those cycles in that thought process that I can't. Meet with them halfway.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:43] Super Interesting, Yeah. Super. Yeah, I struggle myself. I think it's great work you're doing. I think it's super necessary. And if I think it needs to be figured out, I mean, it's not even that the bulge bracket banks, it's at the middle markets. I see like even the Midwest, they can't find any talent. I know, at least especially during COVID, when there's a lot of deals coming through. We're getting calls for recruiting service like we want an experienced analyst. I'm like, Yeah, you and everybody else. That's what I tell them.
Wais Achikzad: [00:44:11] But yeah. What does it tell you when these kids that you pan are like already, you know, plotting their exits like that should be a wake-up call to, you know, these MDs to say, look, this is the perception that they have. Right? So is that not incentive enough for you to try to do something about it? And we can be creative. These are smart people.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:30] Yeah, I love it, So I mean, I think you're doing great work. Keep it up, I think.
Wais Achikzad: [00:44:33] No, listen, I love what you guys do, And all the value add to, you know, our audience. And it's phenomenal work that you do. So it's just a privilege to be on with you. And if I can help anyone in the audience, you know, look me up. “Wais Achikzad” on LinkedIn, Zen Culture Solutions, whatever I can do to help anyone, I'm happy to.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:52] Right, and yeah, and we'll put in links to your company and then to your mentor profile through WSO as well and…
Wais Achikzad: [00:44:58] That's right. A mentor as well obviously.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:45:00] Yeah. So if you want to connect with wise, please feel free to reach out wise. Any final last words of wisdom before we call it?
Wais Achikzad: [00:45:08] Well, just everyone, you know, be true to yourself when you're making decisions, you know, what is it that you love? What are your passions you may not know right now? Exploring is not a bad thing. Finding, you know, ultimately you're going to find your calling, and let's face it, it's not going to feel like a job if you love what you do. Otherwise, you're going to be breaking into a cycle where never-ending cycle where you for the next 10 to 15, 20 years of your life, you're going to go into work and be like, What did I actually achieve? Or am I really happy? So be conscious of your decision-making and know your true self when you make these decisions. Be fair to yourself, and don't do things for the reasons that your peers are doing things because they're getting ahead and they're making more money and just, you know, a little cautious when you make those types of decisions because of those reasons, do what's best for you and only you know yourself. So that would be my those words of hopefully a little bit of wisdom.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:11] I love it. Yeah. More introspection, please. We all need it. Yes.
Wais Achikzad: [00:46:14] Yes, a little more introspection. Exactly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:16] Thanks so much Wais, Appreciate your time.
Wais Achikzad: [00:46:18] Thank you, Patrick. Appreciate it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:18] And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. [email protected] and till next time.
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