WSO Podcast | E245: Barclays Layoffs - High School - Resume Gaps | Weekly Wrapup
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Topics this Week:
0:00 Barclays Layoffs
1:40 High School
9:15 Resume Gaps
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WSO Podcast Episode 245 Transcripts:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:04] Welcome to the WSO weekly wrap-up where I talk with my team about the five most trending discussions in the Wall Street Oasis community. Enjoy! All right, everybody. Sorry about the week off last week. It is April 20th. It is almost 10 a.m. Pacific. Matt, what's going on today for the hot topics in the forums?
Matthew: [00:00:26] Hot topics. Not a shocker here, Pat. We have another round of layoffs happening this week. Barclays is what we're hearing so far, about 100 layoffs in their investment banking division. So it looks like negative news is continuing even with the week off. We thought things maybe might change in a few weeks, but it looks like steady as she goes. It's actually interesting. I don't know if you remember this. Barclays did do some layoffs even last year in 2022. So you know, Cena for the deep in deepening of cuts there is a little bit worrisome but anyway…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:56] But this was just for IB. And we know deal flow has been very low compared to last year and even lower than obviously 2021 was a blowout year. 2022 was a massive drop in 2023 has been even weaker from what we're seeing. But yeah, 100 people getting laid off in the division alone is scary for those out there. We haven't seen too much chatter about it on the forums. A few people have been like. Hey, what have you heard? But not too many people coming out talking about geography yet. If we do hear more about that, we'll post an update here on the show notes.
Matthew: [00:01:28] Yeah, I'm sure it'll eventually come to the forums. It always does, so we'll keep an eye out there and an update next week. But let's get into a few of the cool topics that we saw this week. So another thing around careers breaking into investment banking. Specifically, we had someone in the threads talking about how what are the best ways to stand out as a rising high school student? It was funny. Some of the angles we saw from replies in the threads there people taking it a little bit offensively like. Hey, you know, you're way too young to even be thinking about this, live your life. Then you have alternatively some people thinking that's great. You're being a little bit proactive and providing some tips. So, what do you think? What's the best ways if a high school student should even be thinking about this and giving it that much effort? What do you think are the best ways that they could do some things to stand out?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:12] If this is truly a rising high school senior? We talking about a middle schooler here like an eighth grader is that?
Matthew: [00:02:18] I'd have to, I'd have no, I'd have to assume let's assume senior for this.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:22] Okay. So like if it's a senior and like they already are, they already have their college job offer. I think yeah, it would be great to start senior year or at least senior summer obviously enjoy your life number one it's you're gonna have plenty of time once you get to college but like I think given how early recruiting timelines are, if you can start senior summer or senior year, even if you're like your course load is light, you're already into a good school. Why not start kind of learning more about the industry and just trying to figure out more about like financial modeling? And that stuff is just going to give you that much more an advantage. Especially since timelines have moved up to like for diversity recruiting up to freshman year for accelerated recruiting into or not even accelerated for normal recruiting for junior summer internships, which is the path of least resistance to get these jobs is now in sophomore year. So like you really don't have that much time to meet people. So if you're like a senior in high school, it's kind of like the equivalent of what being a freshman was a few years ago. So, doesn't mean you want to be like necessarily getting on a bunch of networking calls as a high schooler because they'll probably people will probably like laugh.
Matthew: [00:03:37] Yeah, that was gonna be my question there, like to clarify on that but do you think these people or like a high schooler should be focusing more on like internal development, personal development versus like the networking? Right. Because an initial idea that I had that just came to my head was maybe you speak with your parents or even just family friends. See if any of their parents are in a finance based role where you could kind of get some tangible experience. Don't think it should be paid because realistically, 12th grade, you're 17 years old. You're not going to be providing that much value. But think more of like an unpaid internship could be helpful if you have someone in your network like that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:13] But we've had high schoolers in our finance research analyst internship. We've had seniors doing a great job there. So like and that's like an example of an internship that can go on the resume and just start out right away. Kind of ahead of the game in terms of giving you a slight leg up and branding you as a finance person. Now, I'd be saying I'd be a little nervous if you're already saying like investment banking or bust, like as a high schooler in the sense of like, are you really? Do you really understand what the job entails? I had a call with somebody yesterday about work life balance and just like the difference between like hearing about 80 hour work weeks and 90 hour work weeks and then actually living it is very different. And it's different in the sense of like as a high schooler, if you go to like a top high school and are working and doing six, seven hours of homework a night. It's still very different from being in the office and being in the real world versus like. Oh, had sports and then had this like you're moving around a lot more versus like you're staring at a screen for that long. It's different and you're like getting sleep deprived. It's actually a lot of people hit their breaking point in their first year and they are like. Oh, but you're getting paid so much. I'm like yeah, but on an hourly basis, are you really getting paid that much? And so that's what I would caution is like.
Matthew: [00:05:27] It's funny because I think the career in itself, don't get me wrong, I obviously think it's a very nice career to have but I do think it maybe gets a little bit glamorized from the movies that come out around that around the career. So like your Wolf of Wall Street, that really got you a lot of young people chomping at the bit wanting to get into investment banking or finance specifically. And it's not going to be that glamorous. You got to think of the times where you're missing that part. You on a Friday or a Saturday, your girlfriend, you have cancel plans on her. It's a stressful job. And I think the difference from schooling specifically to then actually being on the job is really like that support net that you don't even realize is there. So for instance, if especially in high school. You do have a lot of resources and support built around you that you may not even see, even if you think you're killing it and you're spending that seven, eight hours every night doing homework and you're gettin 95 plus score. There is still a lot of support around you that you don't even realize. But when you're in like an investment bank and you're in that bullpen, you get that support. But you know, it is very much still going to be that sink or swim. There's a lot of money involved. People's careers are involved, people are relying on you. So it's definitely going to be much more cutthroat. And that's where I think the stress adds up. So it's to think that you're able to manage it when you were 17 years old and now when you're 25, 26, without even going through it. I think it's you got to obviously like you said, don't be your bust. Keep your options open.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:51] There's a really great thread on the forums right now, actually about a kid who just had his offer pulled right before they're starting like two months before starting. It was a guy in New York at a middle market. Think I don't know the firm. There's a lot of people speculating what's who, you know, who was it? Was it you know? You know, was it Blair? Was it stifled? Who was it? And we don't know that answer. And I think people should just like don't know. They wanted him to kind of shame the firm but don't think that's a good idea because it could potentially call out who it was and burn bridges. But I think the more interesting part where there were some veteran members coming in there and talking about how like your career is a very winding path like this is an early speed bump but just one of many speed bumps that'll come. And he talked about his son, who ended up like thinking he wanted to do banking and ended up actually getting an internship in sales and is now just crushing it there several years later. Like it's one of the top performers and earning you know loving the company, loving the job and kind of building skill sets and has a path towards kind of growth there.
Matthew: [00:07:55] Yeah, and that's one thing. Before we go to our next topic, I just wanted to chime in because for me at least, it hits home where for me you know I went to business school as you know, I never saw myself working in sales. If you were to ask me that, especially in high school or even first second year like I was always just it was either smt or IB. That's where my interests initially lied. But like you said that path and that winding career. So it's going to bring you to a certain spot that you're not really expecting. What I've gotten more what I'm more receptive of to now is understanding the idea of like skills are truly transferable. I Know when you're younger you hear that. And for at least me, it was just like in through one era to the other. But now I'm actually seeing how skills do transfer over role. So I think, I do value that personal development time now way more than I used to. So if there's any advice for these high schoolers, these kids that are still really young in college university, don't just overlook the personal development. Those skills do transfer even if you think it does or not.
Matthew: [00:08:54] Corporate roles you need to have a certain skill trait whether it's an investment banking, whether you're an FPA back office. There is certain skills to a corporate role that you need to learn and that's going to be transferable across the board. And at the end of the day, you can make money doing a lot of things. Don't think it's your I’d be your bus to make a lot of money. You'll make if you like something, you dedicate yourself to it. You'll make money in whatever role you end up doing. But onto the next topic there, guys. Another interesting one all about careers in itself. In the forums, someone asking about leaving a job off of your resume and then the discussion kind of turned what is the actual idea of a resume? Is it simply just like a highlight reel or is it more of like a background check? And I found that interesting way to think about it because obviously then that poses the question, should you be leaving a job off your resume? Maybe if it wasn't a good experience or maybe not a good experience to be showcasing to the role you're looking to get into now. So what do you think about that, Pat? Should people be leaving jobs off their resume? Should just…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:50] Yeah, absolutely. It’s a highlight reel. The goal of the resume is just get the interview.
Matthew: [00:09:55] But then how do you manage though not having a gap,right? Like you're going to or is it you manage it by preparing a response because you know that question is going to.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:03] Yeah, you know that question is coming. Think that'll be the first thing asked on any sort of interview. Of course if you can minimize the gap it's better by making it look like having an experience. A different experience maybe around a project that you did in those months or hopefully it's not like several year gap. If it's a several year gap, it's something around health or something around other stuff like it's you're just going to have to share as much as you can to kind of get the interviewer comfortable. There's still a lot of and the stigma around certain health issues, around mental health especially. So if it's something around there, I would be less forthcoming about it because then there's going to be judgment. Unfortunately, around that but if there's other stuff like if it's death in the family, if it's because of something else, if it's you had to move because you had to be closer to family. I've heard that a lot. I think that's really well understood. Or if there's something along like layoffs, like there's a ton of layoffs going right now. And if it's outside your control and then there's like a six month gap there, that's great. Now what I'd say is you don't you want to minimize that gap as much as possible. So in the event that you're laid off or fired or whatnot, you should try to work something out as part of the severance with that company that allows you to either stay on payroll at a lower rate or whatever so that you can be searching for the job under the guise of still being still working for your previous firm for as long as possible.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:29] That's a big deal because let's say you're given like a two month head start or they're like. Hey, but we'll keep you on payroll. Let's say it's April. Let's say you get fired today, April 20th. But they're like, Hey, we'll keep you on through June. You now have like a good you know what ten weeks to kind of start your conversations. You can be having those conversations from a relative position of strength and not being like, I got fired. You could just be like I'm looking, I'm exploring my opportunity so it doesn't look as bad. And you're probably going to land a lot more interviews versus like. Yeah, I was part of the layoffs and. It can be more like, hey, you know things are obviously tougher here. We're not there's not a lot of deal flow. I'm looking to get in a better seat and I think that allows you to potentially lateral. It gives you, gives your odds of lateraling to a better job.
Matthew: [00:12:19] Yeah, well playing devil's advocate here, I mean, I understand the idea of resume being a highlight reel, but is there any negativity? Like why would it be negative if you showcase an experience and of course if you did a terrible job in that role then mean yes, you have every you don't want to be discussing that experience. But if there was a different reason why you don't want to be showcasing that on your resume. I would think maybe showing that you maybe had a time where there was a struggle or something might be a good thing if you have a good story to tell to it because I think it'd be foolish to think you hire someone that they're going to be a rock star from you, from the first day you hire them to the whenever they leave the organization 24 seven, the likelihood that's not going to happen. I think there's always going to be that cyclical nature, even within the role of just your performance or overall happiness in the role. So I think kind of showcasing that could be a nice angle if you have a good story to tell and how you alleviated or overcame some of those challenges and why it made it a poor experience or what you at least learned from that I see. Could be helpful in an interview but you just have a flip side. On the flip side, it's so competitive now where you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot. So I see both, it’s just…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:28] I say the only reason you leave, I mean, you put it in there. If you can answer yes to these questions, number one, is it somewhat is it like relevant to the job you're applying to? Are there good projects or outcomes you can speak to? Like are your bullets strong for that specific experience like or was it complete bullshit? You did nothing. You learn nothing. Like if it's like you learn very little. You did very little and they just ended up cutting you. And so that leads like a six month gap on your resume almost rather have that six month gap that hopefully you can kind of massage into a four month gap. And then and I'd rather have that than like having to talk about it. And you could mention it in the interview, but like what happened here? Be like I did work for a company for a while. Unfortunately, like I was, my impression of what the role was and what the firm was going in didn't match up with reality. And I ended up leaving there to go to my next role, which was at this, which was a great experience and. And so, you know not talking overly negative about it, keeping it positive and keeping it focused on the role that you're applying for and how you think that your previous experiences will lead you to be a great hire for that role. Think is best practice but like.
Matthew: [00:14:48] Yeah, I guess if there's any like. Yeah, if there's any job. Like even if this thread was referring to a job on your resume and you could tell it's kind of like fluff because I saw some people here talking about like the, like being ethical. Right, in terms of tailoring your resume. If, of course, if it's like a role that's like fluff and think it's very easy to see that for another reader then yes I think you avoid that have that gap and maybe talk about some personal development things. At the end of the day, these people are hiring, are doing hundreds of interviews a month. They've been probably in seat for a handful of years now. So it's pretty easy to cut through CBS versus not BS. So if you think you're going to try to outsmart someone you're….
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:28] I've seen so many bullshit bullets where.
Matthew: [00:15:31] Yeah right. So then you're better off probably leaving it off and going the angle of like whatever. Maybe you took certain courses some financial modeling courses…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:40] Some people go the other way, they try to jam in every single like. And that's what I'm saying in one page. Or they go…
Matthew: [00:15:45] We're gonna see right through that. Right? Because if you're confident…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:49] Yeah. My point is it's not even that. Like some people go like a few years after a few years of work they'll like literally have it's like they try to put every single award, every single thing.
Matthew: [00:16:00] The margins.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:01] Yeah, they were kindergartners. They put like six point font, they jam like all this stuff in there. I'm like that's a disaster. That shows you you don't have the ability to present what present yourself and know what's actually attractive to the employer. That's just a disaster. Is having an empty resume.
Matthew: [00:16:20] Because that's the angle of how an interviewer would look at it, right? Like you don't do a good job at taking all this data. And putting them concisely into a manageable, readable format, right. Which is essentially what you'd be doing when you put together pitch decks, right? Like an idea you have, get all this data, get it to something that's digestible and easy to read for your investors or your clients to consider.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:42] That's where our resume review service comes in really well because it's it allows people to give you honest feedback. They're not going to bullshit you. They're in the industry. They're going to be like, why is this bullet four lines long? Like, what are you doing? Like, that's really like a no. Why do you have eight bullets on this experience? Where's your transaction experience? Okay, you don't have transaction experience but you have you're a consultant. Okay, let's actually make that look like transaction experience. Like you're engaged.
Matthew: [00:17:08] Yeah, that's the thing we're making it. I think there's certain things that you should be doing where you have to be quantifying certain things on your resume. Like what was your impact can just be analyzed x, y, z and compiled x, y, z. It's as a result of analyzing x, y, z. This was the impact to the business, right? Right. Landed 200 million in origination or whatever that may look like. But I think that's the important part where that's where you get to open the fluff. So if you have experiences, it's fine if you're trying to pat it but there needs to be some sort of tangible value that you provide in that role. It can't just like I said, analyze x, y, z folders. There needs to be this is the result.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:45] Yeah, nine out of ten resumes don't quantify enough. I've very rarely seen there's some where I'm like well okay you got you took a little bit too far but it's rare usually it's too little. And so people say I worked on this types of projects how many like you know like in how many clients did you serve, like in what capacity and what are the numbers. So yeah, man, lots of improvements out there. People assume their answers are great in interviews like they're soft, they're behavioral answers, and people assume their resumes are dialed in when most of the time they're not.
Matthew: [00:18:19] Yeah, It's guess ego for you but best to they always say leave the ego at the door and…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:25] Or no they go to the career centers and the career centers gives them the thumbs up so they feel good about themselves. And the career centers aren't actually working in the industry. They have no clue.
Matthew: [00:18:32] Exactly. Yeah, and actually a lot of times I have seen because I mean I was helping out with the mentor and the resume stuff when I initially started off four years ago. But some of these people actually do the hiring for their firms,right? Or at least involved in the process. A lot of times when you do go through investment banking interviews you're going to meet with the HR staff, of course. But that's sometimes even just like preliminary interviews, second round, third round are usually with BPS associates. My buddy just did it about a month or two ago and he met with like three associates that were going to be working under him. They just wanted you know because he was coming in the VP role. So you're even meeting like with people that you're going to be their boss. They want to see the type of person you are naturally. And then alternatively, use me with directors and MDS as well. So at the end of the day it's they're these are the ones that are actually doing the interviews a lot of the time. So the insight that they're providing is going to be much more beneficial than something from a career center. But yeah, I mean at the end of day I think we both agree resumes are a highlight reel. Make sure you know, you're just putting the most relevant stuff, quantify it. And if you do need to have a gap by all means, that's great. Just try to spin it in a way that you're either developing personally or there's a positive reason for that gap.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:42] But we do have a free resume template. We'll link it in the show notes for those of you who want to kind of see what It should look like design.
Matthew: [00:19:50] Check it out, guys. It's free, best thing in life. Free, so take advantage, guys. But it was a great call today, Pat. Great meeting. Let's reconnect in a week and we'll do it all over again.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:01] And we'll be back from his vacation.
Matthew: [00:20:04] Yeah. So we'll be a three man team versus two man. But until then, guys, all the best.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:10] And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. and till Patrick@wallstreetoasis.com next time.
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