WSO Podcast | E104: Accounting to IB at RBC and PE at HIG....to Starting His Own Company
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In this episode, Brian shares his winding path from a non-target school into an accounting role right after the financial crisis. First, he explains how he was able to pivot into RBC for a middle office accounting position. From there, we learn how he was aggressive in trying to get to the front office, the challenges he faced once he got there and the subsequent jump to private equity at HIG Capital. Listen to hear why after years of struggling to get to the top of the mountain in finance he left to go start his company called LCS, a high-end maker of cool custom laces with NBA and MLB licenses. Check them out at YourLCS.com.
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WSO Podcast (Episode 104) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me as I talk to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, Brian shares his winding path from a non-target school into an accounting role right after the financial crisis. First, he explains how he was able to pivot into RBC for a middle office accounting position. From there, we learn how he was aggressive in trying to get to the front office, the challenges he faced once he got there in the subsequent jump into private equity at AIG Capital. Listen to hear why. After years of struggling to get to the top of the mountain in finance, he left to go start his own company called LLCs, a high end maker of cool custom leases with NBA and MLB licenses. Check them out at your LLCs. Enjoy. All right, Brian, thanks so much for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast.
Brian: [00:01:12] Sure, thanks so much for having me.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:14] She was great. Yeah, it'd be great if we could just start by giving the listeners a short summary of your bio.
Brian: [00:01:20] Sure. So. I started my career in accounting, my father had guided me towards that, I was sort of just like most of us, you know, younger kids without really any idea of what I wanted to do. Figured business made sense. My dad had pushed me towards accounting. I got my first job in two thousand nine. Well, it started January 20 10, but that was like I was just happy to get a job at that point because it was right after the crisis. So for me, it was just getting anywhere, find some sort of public accounting job just so you can get some experience. The money was less important. It was just, you know, get in there. At that point, I was still living the college life, even though I was post-college. I was living in an apartment with way too many people almost treating it like a dorm jumped quickly from. From accounting like the culture, but didn't really like what I was doing. Didn't hate accounting as a technical function, but didn't really like being an accountant or an auditor or a tax person. So I jumped to another firm, another public accounting firm. So was that Mark's expense and Sharon? Then I jumped from George Cohen. And there I. I like the culture. A lot better. Love the people. But again, the work just was not doing it for me. I ended up switching from a tax group to an audit group and financial services audit group and literally did that with the hopes that I can transition that into something in finance. Obviously, in hindsight, it's very easy to see that it worked. But while I was doing that and making that decision, I had no idea that that was going to help me. And obviously that was the reason why I did it. But I was just a young kid and I was like, All right, I hope this works. So I was able to use that six month period that I was in a financial services audit group as experience to put on my resume to get a job at RBC within their middle office doing product control. So that was a key step in using my accounting skills to get into the place I wanted to, even though it wasn't the function that I wanted to be doing. And I was, you know, I was amped. It was a better job with better hours, better team and it actually gave me the job wasn't super hard, so it actually gave me a demanding. It gave me more time to study on my own. During that time, I was trying everything in math and finance just to learn skills, to see what I had liked. I remember I started taking I don't know if you're familiar with Khan Academy, basically mainly for high school and college kids. And I learned like three levels of calculus in order to become a quant trader. And then I went to take a course at Baruch College that was for literally people who had years and years of math experience and got in. And I just laughed and I was like, I'm not ready for this, meaning I could do this if I want to pursue it, but I'm going to need a lot more of a background. Yeah. So at that time, I was just within the bank. I was reaching out to quant traders and then I just kept on reaching out to different people, reached out to traders, reached out to bankers. And I admit so many people because when you have an email within the bank, a cold email is totally different and hold so much more weight than it does. If you're just a random Gmail, just saying like, hey, want to grab a coffee? So I was able to meet analysts, associates, BP's directors, managing directors from every level, in every part of the bank. You know, response rates were probably 50 percent, and of those, I would actually convert into a coffee, probably like seventy five percent of those. So I kept a log at an excel after every meeting just said how it went from terrible to amazing and just what I can take from them. Some people ask to grill me with questions what I can get on an interview and some of those I failed miserably. But doing that, and I had bothered air quite a bit to be able to try and switch, and I kept on having meetings with HR to the point where they were like, All right, this guy is pushing real hard. And it got to a point where I think the first time I met with H.R., they told me I wasn't ready. And by the end, after about nine months in RBC, they knew I was ready. I knew I was ready. A spot opened up in campus recruiting, so I jumped in and was able to interview. So I basically I jumped straight into the Super Day because the first round they kind of was fit. So they already had known who I was and I was very ready and I knew I had killed the interviews. And after that they told me, like, great job on the interviews. We like when people raise their hand from the middle office, et cetera, to try and to show how motivated they are. And that turned into me joining the Leveraged Finance Group in the summer analyst class in the starting August analyst class for the two year program.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:01] Just for everyone, everyone listening. That's actually not a very easy transition to make, actually. Yeah. Yeah, it has to be really aggressive like you were. It sounds like, but to a
Brian: [00:06:10] Point of discomfort, because I'm not. I am. I've become more of the aggressive type, but I don't like to bother people and you have to bother a lot of people and you have to be off putting at times because putting myself in their shoes, I would have felt the same way. Like, you know, this guy is a little bit annoying, but if you do it just to the point before, it's like too annoying you, you're able to maximize it. And I'd love to pat myself on the back and I can a little bit and say, hey, you know you, you worked hard to get there, but there is a lot of luck involved. I could have done the exact same thing and met one different person, or it have been the wrong day for me or whatever it was, and there goes my chance. So there really is a tremendous amount of luck, but the most important thing is putting yourself in a position to be lucky. So it's just like preparing yourself as much as possible so that when the opportunity does arise, you can capitalize on it. You would,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:59] Obviously. Yeah, you're at RBC for a good run. Then then what?
Brian: [00:07:02] Yes, I was an accountant there for about a year and then joined banking for about three years. Unbelievable experience. Life, but, you know, really, really learned way more and also confidence was like I had come from, you know, I was an average student. I was average at the prior jobs that I had. So I was kind of unsure that, you know how well I would do. And then just after about six months plus, I started. Getting towards the top of my class and I was interviewing for private equity jobs throughout, and I was just shocked that people are able after three months to be interviewing and prepared and ready. Some people are, and I know these days most people need to be in order to get those jobs. I was absolutely not ready at all. I couldn't even fake it. I was trying to fake it. But the experience of those interviews really helped. In year one year two, I was pretty ready, but the things I was fighting against were having not been not gone to a target school. I went to Queen's College and that really does affect you. Surprisingly, I sat scores. The people who I was going up against were 14 15 hundreds and I was significantly lower than that. So everything was sort of going against me, and I had a bunch of late rounders in my second year where I almost got something. And then in my third year, I was sort of like, All right, this sucks. Like, I might not get anything. Do I have to be a banker the rest of my life? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but at that point I was just so prepared and I had such good experience and I was working for, you know, directly for a managing director. Somebody above me got left to go to a PE firm, so it opened up an opportunity for me to take on a lot more responsibility than I could even handle. But because the person above me was willing to take me under their wing, I just learned a lot really quickly. And at that point I was just going through a ton of interviews and I was killing a lot of them, and some of them would turn me away for the wrong reasons. But I understand it. And then hyg. I had a multiple rounds of interviews, I think good interviews with like 15 people I had like four rounds and model tests know the whole deal. And I actually asked them they gave me an offer and ask them after. I'm like, Why did you hire me? And they said, they're like, we were torn because you have a very different background. I was also two to three years older than most of the people that were coming in because I'd started in accounting. And they said, you know, it's nice to have diversity within the group and your background is just obviously very different and you're clearly a hard worker, et cetera. So I got an offer for a year and a half out. I asked if I could start early. They had said we can't because we have another class coming in. And then they came back to me like a week later and said, we're selling a portfolio company. If you want, we could use you to work for us and then you'll be employed by them. But working for the executive management team, just preparing all the documents, et cetera. So I was like, of course, that I'd almost prefer that, you know,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:58] To be able to have that, you had done your reps at banking enough. It was year three. You were like,
Brian: [00:10:03] Yeah, exactly. But also, it's not even just that it was like because at times it was very intense. It was more. Most people go to a PE firm and then they hope to get portfolio experience after that, maybe for a year just to have the experience. So now I knew my private equity job was coming after I knew this was going to be a yearlong or less of a commitment. And I just had the opportunity to actually see the sale process go through from where the sausage is made, you know?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:28] Yeah, very cool. So you did that for almost a year and then ended up starting it. Hyg. Yeah. And tell me about that. Tell me about your time at AIG.
Brian: [00:10:36] So it was an awesome experience, and most people who end up jumping into entrepreneurship do it because they hate their job. They hate working for people. You know, they just can't deal with all the whatever it is. And for me, it was not the case. I actually wasn't something I necessarily saw myself doing my whole life, but I was just the amount you learn when you first start, and that's probably for two, three, four or five years because of how much there is to learn. It just makes it a really enjoyable job and it's just very challenged. You get paid relatively well and it's just like a good place to be. And it was a little bit better than banking because when you're on a deal, it's a nightmare in terms of hours and what you're committing. But when you're not on a deal or it's holiday time, it's just it's extremely loose and it's not like a face time culture. I don't know if this is hyg relative to other firms, but you know, I found AIG was very, very just to the point and like, work your butt off and do what you need to do to get the job done and we will not babysit you, you know? But while I was there, I was spending a lot of time on my eventual entrepreneurial activities, so I was not performing poorly by any means. But it was. I was sharing an office with a guy who had started with me. He was one of the smartest guys I've ever met and he was doing really well and he actually knew everything, obviously about my business and eventually told me he's just like, Yeah, I think you're cut out for this. And he ended up investing and in the initial, you know, family and friends around that that we did on the company. But yeah, I was juggling two things. And not only is it hard as an entry private equity associate to try and like get your bearings straight. But there were certain times where I would have to deliver on something and the quality would be a little bit less because I was just on the phone dealing with China and worrying about how our shoelaces, you know, our companies came. Everything came backwards and messed up. So to
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:35] Give people just who I don't know what, what, what
Brian: [00:12:37] Your startup, actually, it's just it's totally different. Me, how you different types of jobs.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:42] How did you come across like even doing something like this and tell people what it is, the name where they can find it? Stuff like that, and we'll recoup the company? Yeah, yeah, the company.
Brian: [00:12:51] So the company is called LLCs. We are building a brand, a lifestyle brand, around starting around shoelaces. So the reason why I say lifestyle brand and not just calling us a shoelace company is because it's really brand first and it's our content first. And you know, everything that we put out there is it should be no matter what product we're selling, that we should be able to leverage our system in order to do that. So it's really the aesthetic of the brand. Know who, how we do our photoshoots, how we how do we edit our marketing and pre and post etc. and just presenting it and sort of building a brand so that people can perceive us in a way in which they want to associate themselves. So we define the company as sort of a platform that's open ended, but we generally do apparel, and right now it's mainly only shoe laces. But as I was saying before, a lot of time to do development during corona. So there's a number of other other products and projects that are in the mix that will hopefully before the end of the year, come out. So we sell shoelaces. We saw it as a as a category. My partner worked at a massive sock company that built a really strong brand based out of Southern California. And he worked there, and I basically just went to visit him while I was at the portfolio company because I was on business in California at the time, I was living in New York.So just shooting the breeze, and it ended up getting into a much more serious conversation and he's like, I love it here, but I feel like I could do this myself, and he's more of a marketing and networking guy. Good relationships with celebrities, athletes, influencers and I was sort of the finance and business. And then we brought on another partner who was also he's an accountant, CPA, and the three of us just sort of got together and we had another partner at the time who were hoping to bring back on eventually. But just obviously, when you're an entrepreneur, you're not really getting paid well. And he had multiple kids who he was like, I'm not ready to jump on this full time. Yeah. So we yeah. So we started just, you know, my father has relationships with China. That's his business. But he doesn't generally do premium apparel products. But he was able to connect us through his sourcing agent there. And it's actually been nice working with my dad, a different dynamic to our relationship. Yeah, and he's great. He's the type of dad who is like, I don't care to make money on this. I just want to like spend more time with my kid in a different way. So, so yeah, we started. Technically, the idea came about in twenty sixteen. We self-funded at the beginning it was about nine months into my the job hyg, where we needed to raise a little bit of around. And the only way to do that is if one of us was going to go full time. .So we got together around wasn't so easy, but we were able to raise three hundred K and we use that to sort of try and just build a couple of stories to get to the next round and then last less. So I quit in May of two thousand and eighteen. And then in July of 2019, we closed our seed round from one investor who raised a million dollars to be able to just take things to the next level. Very strong strategic investor. Aside from being a financial investor and now where we stand is we're still moving still going forward. But a lot of what we launched since July, it was starting to come out now and like February and March. So things are obviously slow. It's not the best time, but we're pushing forward and still moving through it. But like I said, things are slower until this passes, but they're not slower in terms of what's going on behind the scenes and just giving us an opportunity to regroup and come up with other products or other strategies, et cetera.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:36] Cool. Yeah. So I want to dive in a little more to that story, but let's go all the way back to undergrad. So you went to you, said Queens, right, Brooke? Yeah, I went to Queens. Yeah, so you were there. Did you know you said there was a little bit of kind of your a little bit naive or when you first kind of graduate, you didn't know what to go into and you were just thinking a good job. Any job is good. Was accounting always on the radar? Was finance on the radar? Like, when did you figure out, Okay, now have this accounting job? I want to pivot and then eventually get to middle office at RBC? Like, when did that come on the radar?
Brian: [00:17:06] Yeah, so, you know, growing up, there is the kids in school who are super motivated and those that are not, I was very motivated, socially and very motivated, you know, to be spending and maximizing my time with friends, et cetera. And you know, a few of my other friends, a few of my other friends were just significantly when I say smarter, I don't mean necessarily intellectually smarter. Just we're preparing themselves. And those are the ones that got into the good schools. But I just didn't care enough. And it was because I was just an immature kid until right after high school, I went to study abroad. I studied abroad in Israel for about a year and a half, and while I was there, it's literally nothing specific. Besides for just a maturity switch of like, All right, I'm going to eventually have to get serious and figure out what I want to do. And I went through what a lot of people go through where it's like, I have no idea what I want to do. I don't even know what I'm good at and how could I know what I want to do without trying something? So my dad was very much involved in influencing me. My dad, like I said, he works with China and he the sales. He doesn't do anything within accounting or finance, but he guided me and just said, it's a tough economy right now and the safest jobs are those in accounting, and it's just a really good place to start. And if I wanted to even try and get a finance job at that point, it would not have been a great one because of what the economy was like and because coming out of Queens College, you can get solid jobs, but you're not going to get the top most prestigious jobs. So at that point, I was just like, I'm going to go with this because it's what's being recommended to me. It's safe. I did enough research. Hopefully I like it, and if I don't, I'll learn something. And then hopefully along the way, which ended up being true, is you figure out what you like and the sort of the feelings that you have, whether they're conscious or subconscious, sort of guide you into just trying new things. And you know, for me, that was probably more extreme than most. I've pushed myself and bettered myself all around within different accounting groups. And, you know, it was a worry of mine that people look at your resume and say, oh, you bounce from this group to that group and this firm to that firm, and there is something to be said about that. But it was way more important for me to get my feet wet and a lot of different things. So I was pushing through accounting for that reason. From day one, I was like, I don't even know how to be a professional, and I don't. I don't enjoy this accounting stuff very much. I just knew right away I was like, this just isn't going to be a fit, but I was like, learn whatever you can. So learn whatever I could was looking for jobs randomly, probably within six months in. And then by the end of the year, I had landed a job at another place where just through a family friend, I ended up getting in touch with the managing partner and he pitched it really well. Can you imagine a managing partner pitching a super young guy? He wasn't doing it for the firm. He was doing it for me, you know, so
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:53] Tell me why? Why even make that jump when it's just another accounting firm?
Brian: [00:19:57] So at that point, I didn't know if it was accounting. I didn't know a specific type of work. I was in a non profit audit group, so I was like, OK, maybe these companies just aren't as sexy as I'd like, you know? Right? I didn't believe that necessarily to be true, but I was like, just maybe, maybe it's the environment. Maybe I need to get out. And I ended up really enjoying the culture a lot more. The social culture just within. I was a judge cone, which is now Cohen. Resnick, also mid-size firm, just really enjoyed it. It was in the tax group to start. I had good friends, people who were guiding me and I learned quite a bit. But after about six months within there, it was again, just like, I don't see myself doing this. So then it was like, I want to get into finance, but I don't know what. And my only way to get into finance right now that I can think of is to switch into an accounting group within the firm. It's an easy step, but why?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:48] Why? Why are you thinking I want to get into finance just because you had heard the trajectory was more rapid, like the pay was better? What was the what were the things? Yeah, it was as a young guy like, you know, having done a couple of years of accounting at this point or a year and a half, you were at that second firm. Maybe like this is still not going to be for me long term. It was it that or was it just it seemed like a natural thing where you could kind of leverage your accounting background?
Brian: [00:21:12] There was a little bit of both. It was leveraging my accounting background. It was also just like, like faster track, you learn. Supposedly again, this was saying supposedly because I didn't know at the time.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:22] The only mentor guiding you, anybody there that was like, you should get into banking or try to
Brian: [00:21:26] Make it, not at RBC. But I did have friends who at the time I looked at as just much smarter than me and much more higher achievers and people who I would have dreamed to be in their shoes, which is nice because I ended up not being necessarily in their exact shoes, but follow it enough in the past to be able to just get that experience. But it was. It was a money thing, just long term money. It was also like, I don't know if I love it, but if I'm going to be miserable, I'd rather be making more money, then less money.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:56] I also like 50 to 60 K at that. These law firms as an accountant, something like that.
Brian: [00:22:01] As an accountant, I started off and I think fifty four and then had gone up. To somewhere in the sixties and then in the
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:10] Middle, it's middle office. You called it like product control analyst or whatever, doing some sort of accounting for RBC. Was that like a jump up to 70 or so mid 60s plus a small bonus?
Brian: [00:22:20] Yeah, I think it was low 70s. Yeah, OK. So it's was nice to get a pay bump and it was a lifestyle bump. And just like, you know, it was, it was a
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:28] Good year at the firm where you can potentially make that that next critical
Brian: [00:22:32] Jump. Exactly. And like I told you when I was like, in terms of confidence, I was never an incompetent person, but I just always placed myself and said, You are here and there are some people who just achieved way more. And it wasn't even like feeling bad for myself where it's like, Oh, I can't achieve what they have. It's just like, just know your role, you know? And obviously, that wasn't good in hindsight, but because I've been able to see what I've been able to achieve without that. But that was really sort of the mentality. And, you know, it was just for a whole bunch of reasons. I also knew that people in banking, if I can get in there, I'm going to be around the smartest people and people who I felt were smarter than me. And it's like, I'm going to learn something. And it's like, even if I don't make it through, it's like, at least I will have gotten that experience one habit on the resume. Speak to it. So I was very, very aggressive when I got into my product control room at RBC somewhat show that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:24] How early did you start like pushing to get to a banking role? Because that could be really touching? Man, aren't the like the direct people who hired you for in the middle for that, for that accounting role at RBC? Kind of pissed.
Brian: [00:23:35] So this is what I what I talk about in terms of luck. The head of my group was a really, really, really good guy and he was tough on you to make sure you were working hard and that you're doing a good job. Is it the perfect balance? And when you have a boss he like pushes you, also gives you doesn't pressure you doesn't micromanage, you know, he's sort of like, Dude, you need to do kind of throw you to the fire and like, I'm here to help if you have questions. Yeah, I remember I had my first annual review three months in just because of the timing of when I joined and in that meeting, I just don't know what came over me. I basically said I was like. I really enjoy this group, and I enjoy working here like in this capacity, but I am just letting you know that I have been reaching out aggressively to people in the front office to try and get into one of those roles. And the reason why I said that is just because I had just I felt like I really needed to be honest with him, even though it was putting myself at risk and it ended up working in my favor because he sort of laughed a little bit. And he said it doesn't happen that often, but I truly respect your motivation. And he's like, if it does work out for you, that's great. And it also looks good on us because it shows what these can turn into, right? And if it doesn't, then just like Lesson learned, but he was just super supportive about it and like looking back, it's like I would never tell somebody to do what I did. But the fact that I did it just like it really, you know it just you're able to see that like, yeah, he cares about his group. But he also realizes like, I'm a lower employee in his group, like if I leave, it doesn't change that much. And it's not a disrespect to his group. It was just like I wanted to be able to take on and learn something new and different. And he was just, there should be more bosses and employees like him.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:20] Was there any pushback in terms of like, OK, fine, you can do that, but you got to be here for at least a year? Did you say anything around timing? He's like, You can't just hire you and you jump six months later? Or was there anything?
Brian: [00:25:29] No, I think he was more like,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:32] You didn't think you would. It's not going to happen. Yeah, you know, it's not going to have anything.
Brian: [00:25:35] It was like, if it does, then like, you deserve it. So like if it happens in a month, you know, whatever it is. So that was three months in at that time, I was just so set on like it happening. But around that time is when I was. I remember I was reading meeting with someone from HR who was very, very tough on me. But in general, just like typical banking, just very, very like, we have a very high expectation. And we sat during a meeting and, you know, very intimidating. And I was just like giving her all my reasons and just she was questioning me and stuff like that. And she just looked at me in the face and she's just like, you're not ready. And I was just like, OK. And like, in my mind, I was like, you might be right, but like, I want my shot now. But like, I didn't say anything. So she gave me some advice in the next few months, I said, was
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:18] That what was that advice? Was it like, go back and learn financial modelling? Like, what was what was she telling you to do?
Brian: [00:26:23] Yeah, it was. You need it was. You need to learn, you know, the technical stuff and you need to be just as good, if not better than anybody else is going to be in your position. And to like, you know, you have to realize that this is not just something that every day people do, and even if you are potentially qualified, you can't just keep demanding it and forcing it to happen because it's just, you know, it's just not that easy. So she had just said, like also in my confidence, the way I was saying things. It was all this stuff was new to me. So when I was answering her questions, there was just, you know, I don't lie very well. So you kind of like, see that it's just like, I'm sort of faking a little bit until I make it, which is all I can do at the time. Mm hmm. How are you
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:03] Going for these like HR meetings? Would you suggest people like Prep for it as if it's like an actual investment banking interview? Was she like, obviously, she was asking you like the will y and like, you know, what do you think that's going to do and why do you think you should be all those kind of more behavioural side? But was there were there any like technical questions about like financial modeling? Was she doing that?
Brian: [00:27:22] Yeah, but nothing like very deep. It was just like high level things, just like walk me generally through these types of models, which you if you're going into investment banking and you don't know by heart like, then you should reconsider. Yeah, I remember, I think after those three months and then two months later, probably five months in, I got an opportunity to interview actually. And I didn't get it. It was not for an analyst class. It was for a financial firm fig investment banking group. Someone had quit and they needed the help. And so they gave me an opportunity. Very tough guy. Very tough interview. But he was asking me some like relatively basic looking back questions on present value, not like what is present value, but just simple stuff that like I should have and had to know. And I was just I was like aggressive in the interview too, but like to a point where like I made sure to like, chill and not overstep my boundaries. But he basically told me before it was even over without even relating to H.R.. He's just like, You're not ready for this, you need to understand these concepts. So I got lucky that I actually was shut down a couple of times, but because of the way I did it, I was able to get another opportunity. And then I think it was another three months or four months. So finally, nine months in is
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:29] That second time where you kind of were shut down. Did you think it's not going to happen or do you doubt yourself or you were just confident then like, if I keep pushing, I'm going to get there.
Brian: [00:28:37] There's no. Yeah, I had a ton of doubt, like there was self-doubt,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:41] Like it doesn't sound like it, by the way, you're talking with them.
Brian: [00:28:44] Yes, but it was. It was almost like, I don't have anything to lose. So try until the point. Whether you feel like you're really overstepping and people are getting annoyed with you or that you just, like, actually have technical failure or you just get thrown. I told myself I was like, This is so important to you. You don't want to get fired. But if you do get fired for these reasons, you're not going to regret it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:05] So like you had enough of like you were good enough with like reading people that you would know kind of when you started crossing that line?
Brian: [00:29:13] Yes, but it's not just a very clear line. There's a lot of gray. So once you start entering into the grey, which I think I did, it's you don't know. And there's also different people who have different thresholds for what they're willing to take. Yeah, so I never overstepped. I was called out on overstepping in a way that was almost in a good way. I remember this is actually interesting. We'll probably get a laugh from this. Once I got the offer to join the investment banking class, it was, I think it was June and the class was starting in August. So H.R., I'd like I went to speak with H.R. and I told them I was like, Is it OK if I take two months off to travel before I enter into this? And the words that she used was literally an air woman. She's just like, You have some balls. And I basically said I was like, Listen, I understand if I if I can't, if I'm not granted that it's not me demanding it, it's me asking, and if not, I'm more than happy to stay to do it. I need to do. But just like I'm entering into a time where I'm not going to be able to do this and it just gives me an opportunity. And she said she's like, It's very reasonable. She said, Let me just confirm with some people she got back to me like an hour later and I booked a trip like five days later. No way for two months in Japan, I went for just for, like three weeks. I wanted to like, prepare. But yeah, I went by myself. I hadn't met up with some acquaintances there, but yeah, that was awesome. Also, just getting the opportunity to to have like free and clear mind. Don't worry about a job and just travel aimlessly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:40] And so you. How much time did you actually get off for that? Um, like I know you did the three week trip, but was it like a full two months before you like it was?
Brian: [00:30:49] No, it was like six weeks. So it was like the middle of June.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:51] So yeah, it was great. So unheard of me.
Brian: [00:30:53] Yeah, of course. Yeah, I appreciate. I mean, I travelled for about half of it and then I was just sort of home figuring out, you know, moving apartments, finding, you know, just taking care of all things I needed to do. But. Maybe it was an awesome opportunity.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:07] So you finally make it tell me what the feeling was like when you when they find out like you were entering into that, that interview process and you're kind of getting through it, you're probably more prepared. You're doing well. Did you think like, I got this this time, I'm going to get it? Or what was the thought process like when they called you up? Were you jumping off the wall or?
Brian: [00:31:24] Yes, I was saying before about interview experience. Like, even if you know you're not going to get a job, you know, when you're in banking or whatever it is, it's just take the interview. And there were some interviews, especially at the beginning where I was just like, I would just smile in the middle and basically be like without saying it, like, I know I'm not getting this and I know I'm failing this miserably. And they kind of understood that. And they were like, Good work, just work on these few things and come back, you know? So that was sort of the same thing with everything as I. The first time I tried, I was not as confident, but I grew more and more confident. So they tried the first time and they rejected me. Then I got an interview and then they rejected me and I was just like, All right, if I can keep on getting opportunities, I'll be prepared and meeting with all of the bankers all the way up from analyst to MD. They basically gave me every resource actually have a Dropbox with a lot of stuff in it, not necessarily everything, but basically I can. Just a lot of people have reached out to me because they see Queens College and investment banking, and they're just like, this already seems like a unique route. So I share this Dropbox with them, and it just has a lot of the resources that I use to get smart. And I was able to ask people questions about things that I couldn't understand. So I had the resources at, you know, at my discretion. So I was able to leverage it. So once they called me up and said, you have an interview tomorrow, you know, four Super Day, and I was like, Oh my God, like, I can't screw this up. But I was also like, Dude, like, you're ready. You know, like you're ready to take this next step and you're just do it. And so I'm not going to lie. I went in and I was very scared, but I knew what the construct, the construct of the interview is going to be. They also told you a little bit about it what it was, and I was able to speak to other analysts to get an idea of what it was. So I over prepared in a way that I did perfectly fine. So it's three interviews M.D., VP or MD and two MVP's. And I crushed all of them and I knew I crushed all of them, but I just was hoping that was enough. So it wasn't like I walked out confident, like, you're getting it? Yeah, the MD. I sent a thank you note after and he responded to me and like I said, great work. And at that point I was like, All right, that's a really good sign. Usually they don't respond and to respond and say that, not that I knew, but I was just like, OK. And then I think it was a day later where they call me up and I was just like, Holy cow. Yeah, the feeling is great because you set your mind not to do something. You doubt yourself the whole time. Yeah. And then you get it. And it's funny because there's some of my friends who like, went to really good schools. They just get these jobs easily, you know, so it's just like, Oh my God, what that means, what it means to me. And now it's funny. Looking back on that, it's like the levels of confidence that I've surpassed because of all the things that I've had to put myself through. I am obsessed with continuing to achieve and getting to the next level. And so once I got into private equity, I was already at the point where I was like, All right, now, I got to start my own company and my own way, you know? So it's very obvious trends within me to see myself continuing to achieve and setting goals. And once you break those goals and reach those goals, you set onto others.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:22] And you mentioned a lot about like networking internally and how that was really successful. You had like a 50 percent hit rate in terms of people actually taking your call on a seventy five percent conversion from there to actually getting a coffee chat, which is insane. Did you have any similar success outside of RBC or was it or you just 100 percent focused on just staying within the firm?
Brian: [00:34:42] Um, the success outside the no, I wasn't I was willing to take anything, but I just knew I had an advantage. It is absolutely night and day being having an email handle within the bank versus reaching out from any other email address. I have the same conversion rate that everybody else does. There's no magic. There are, there's a lot of advice you can give, and all of that advice gives you like a marginal point one percent chance improvement of getting somebody to answer you like no one. Will people get too many emails?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:12] What do you think the thing is? What do you think the hit rate is on like cold LinkedIn and then cold emails?
Brian: [00:35:18] It would not shock me that if you reach out to one hundred people, you would get maybe five responses. Some people might get more and let's say you do get more. I'd say it's
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:28] Going to be. I'd say the connection rate is closer to 20 if you structure it well in terms of like an actual connection, like you say, Hey, I noticed you have this.
Brian: [00:35:36] Oh yeah, if you have a connection, a little bit different rather than what I was doing,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:39] You went to my school or you, you're from my city, something like that. I think it can be up to 20 20.
Brian: [00:35:45] I have LinkedIn, like I've just been the guy who's tried to maximize connections just because once you have a connection, even if you don't know the person, it's like, Oh, they're connected, so they have some sort. So I have like two thousand connections on LinkedIn. I know probably 10 percent of those people, but people have asked me for intros. I've asked people and it's helpful. But I'm talking more about at the time I was using LinkedIn, but I was also using like just company emails because a lot of people, especially the senior people at banks or people at banks, don't provide their email because they don't want to be bothered. So you have to find the email, the format of how the emails are done and for every person, try three different formats, whether it's first letter of first name and then last name or the whole name or dot and you try a bunch of formats, you do it with all the people you see, you send it out and some people might respond.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:31] A lot of those have email formats in the company database. Oh yeah, yeah. So for every company, if you go in there, they'll say first last that whatever Goldman Sachs.
Brian: [00:36:40] So that's extremely helpful because, you know, you're getting through to people. It's just a matter of like, OK, then they're not they're just not answering me. But yeah, when you're outside and you're just randomly emailing somebody, I didn't get responses very often. And if I did, most of them were like, You know, yeah, we'll meet for coffee or like, let's connect later on or like, you know,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:59] It's just blowing you off.
Brian: [00:37:01] Yeah. And I particularly feel a little bit more of an obligation to answer those emails when I get them just to pay it forward. But even then, if too many people reach out to you, it's just it's it becomes a distraction from your day. So it's I I can understand it a lot more now than I did at the time, but it's just like people just don't have the time to answer every email.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): 00:37:21] Yeah. So, OK, so you're having a lot of success within the firm anyways. So you're kind of doubling down there. You're meeting a ton of anchors and you're kind of getting resources, you're getting kind of prepped. At what point do you feel like you've you're ready like you said you had a whole spreadsheet kind of tracking how the conversations went. What do you feel like? You obviously got better as you did more of these like networking chats with people? Do you have any advice for the listeners who are like? Let's say in the middle or back office, and they're trying to do these types of coffee chats, which may be a little awkward. We're like the banker probably knows, OK, this kid wants like eventually transition. How do you how do you make it a success or like a ranked at 10 on your scale or how you did it? What was that?
Brian: [00:38:05] So no one is arming yourself with information, so whatever extent you possibly can, whether it's Google searches or just even, you know, even having access to Wall Street phrases like there's just so many things that you can utilize and learning the skills over time, just understanding at a very high level what the models are, what an analyst needs to know in his first interview. But most importantly, with that, you're not looking to meet up with somebody and show them how much, you know. That's usually a common mistake, and people will throw out words to like, think that they have common ground. It's like, I can say DCF and I know what it is at a high level. So now this analyst, even every six months in, it doesn't have a lot like that guy is not going to be impressed by hearing you say DCF, you know, he's like, so you need to be armed with that information so that when they are giving you advice or telling you what to learn or telling you how it's specifically used, you know how to use it. But when you're meeting people at analyst level, you show them a little bit more respect than you might anybody up, but also treat them as your friend where it's like you're just shooting the breeze and don't be too formal. Whereas as you go up the chain, you have a little personality, but just respect as you move up. So like I said, I was aggressive and at times it worked, and at times it didn't. But there would be some people who would tell me a piece of advice and give me criticism, and I might not take it well or not. Well, I would just argue against it and say, What about this? And it would just be like, that's not what this is about. I'm here to give to help you. And if you want it, you could take it in. If not. But yeah, you sort of develop your own strategy and just don't like, don't try too hard to impress people. Just try your hardest to show a genuine interest and know and have a number of answers as to why you want to do that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:44] I love that. Yeah, I think trying so hard to impress people and show that you know, the right lingo, I think is a huge mistake. People are trying to sound too smart. I think you can. You can show your intellect and show that you've done the research based on the questions. You ask if they're nuanced enough so that you can do that. But it shouldn't be some B.S. type of question where there's no reason why you'd be interested in that. Like you can't really like feign like, Oh yeah, I'm curious about, you know, where pricing is on high yield. Know whatever.
Brian: [00:40:13] Exactly. And if you ask that it ends up doing you a disservice and it almost would be better off if you didn't even meet with them because, you know, and there's also going in with the expectation of knowing that a lot of people either won't be nice or just are going to tell you that you have no and be negative or just be like, you don't want to do this, trust me. Like, you don't experience it and you have to be able to face that. So like, my spreadsheet didn't say like, oh yeah, all these things were good. Some of them were like, this guy hated me. Like, Yeah, try and avoid him and make sure he's not involved with you getting a job because I just had a bad feeling about that meeting and it was like, don't reach out to him again. That's the reason why I kept the log is like to keep track of who I reached out to when I reached out to them, how I felt. The meeting went just the temperature of the meeting.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:54] So how many people did you meet with? You think overall internally before you made the transition?
Brian: [00:40:59] It was? Meet with, I would say, maybe. 40 to 50, but reached out to is probably like two hundred. That's insane. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. And some of those movies I said, like, like didn't go that well, but like I was just like, I don't know if this is going to work. And that's the hardest part because you're dedicating so much of your time to making it work. But I was just like, the only risk is it not working like there's no other risk, like it's just when
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:26] The bigger risk in finance selling air over and over again.
Brian: [00:41:30] Exactly. But worst case, even like obviously, I did not want to get fired, especially at a young age, because that hits your confidence. But like, I knew I wasn't going to get fired. I figured I would get it talking to first, where it's like, you need to know your role and like, stay where you are and like, work hard. And I didn't even get to that point, so I just knew I had that. And you know, everything in finance. So you learn now is just asymmetric upside, and that's what it was like. The downside was most likely low probability of me being fired. And the impact on me being fired wasn't even that bad. When you're that young in your career, you feel like it is
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:02] More likely the downside would be just like a stern talking to like, you need to stop this, like you're getting exactly.
Brian: [00:42:08] And then at that point, you know, OK, I need to behave myself, you know? Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:11] So, OK, so tell me a little bit about that first kind of week or in training. You're kind of a little bit older than the other analysts were. People looking at you like, how did this kid get in here? Or was it what was it? Whereas everyone very super friendly?
Brian: [00:42:25] Well, I didn't. I didn't stick out in terms of the way I look. You know, I wasn't, I didn't have. You didn't have a beard. Yes, exactly. I didn't. I didn't have obviously any facial hair that was an absolute no, no. This is actually a post finance,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:39] I assume, as an entrepreneurial beard.
Brian: [00:42:42] Exactly, exactly. So people didn't know, but I would sort of, you know, in networking with people and just connecting and be like, Oh, where'd you go to school? And then people be like, oh, interesting. But I didn't really get a lot of disrespect. There probably were a bunch of people who are like, All right, this guy doesn't won't necessarily help me as much because I want to leverage with the other guys and see what they're doing, you know? But there was not it didn't feel like there was that much judgment. I mean, I felt like I had to like, be a certain way. I proved myself because of that. And it was, you know, true to an extent. But most importantly, I told you this was like a common issue for me when I was just doing it was again a no confidence issues, but confidence in terms of now, I feel like I've just entered a territory of people who are just a step caliber higher than I am, and I therefore need to give it all in order to just do the same as they're doing and half the time or whatever it is.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:34] And was that true? I mean, did you feel like technically you were able to ramp up training is not that much time to really get ramped, but did you feel like all the prep you had done for the interviews, at least was helpful somewhat or no?
Brian: [00:43:44] It was. I definitely felt like I wasn't as prepared as some of the other guys. I felt like they knew some finance concepts were to me. Like, I literally took finance one on one in college, you know, I had accounting and economics background, so I had to do some stuff. But like I knew, like what present value was before I started studying for these interviews. And then I obviously learned a lot from the interviews, but I still was just like I felt behind. And again, I wasn't sure. Is that like because of my intellect, or is that just because of lack of skill? And it's normal to have a lack of confidence in that scenario. But what I did learn was that I would say for the first six months, I was probably on the lower end of my class in terms of performance. Just because it was just it was a lot. It was something I had never dealt with before. I didn't go to a high commanding university either. It was relatively easy.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:31] The hours must have been brutal and the stress must've been really high at this first.
Brian: [00:44:34] Yeah, it was stress. And it was also like, I don't know if I can meet this deadline because I don't know how to do the work, and there's only so many questions I could ask and how much spoon feeding I can get. So a couple of people spoke to me within my first six months, and we're like the other analysts are outperforming you and this and that and I was it scared me, but I like to hear that I like to be aware. And the next six months, I picked up the pace a little bit to where I was still lower. Performance ended up getting. There was five buckets of bonuses. I got the second to lowest and like sort of wasn't upset with that because I was just like, I'm happy too, that they're just that means I can continue.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:45:07] Do you mind sharing like your basic boat, like 80 or 90 or something? And then you're
Brian: [00:45:11] My big my salary and my first year was right before they changed. I don't know if they've changed it since, but they, like shifted more to salary from bonus. So I think my salary might have been, you know, in the 70 range. And then bonus was somewhere around, I would say, 90 to 100 percent of that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:45:33] Ok, so even in the second lowest bucket, it was
Brian: [00:45:35] That I would take that with a grain of salt because I was obsessed with that at the time. But I just don't really remember, which is crazy how long it's been. But it was it was in the low one, hundreds all in, even with my relatively lower bonus. Now, I think bases are a little bit higher in bonuses, a little bit smaller. Yeah. So I'd gotten the second to lowest bucket. They didn't tell me that, but obviously it's very easy to figure out when you go and talk to the other analysts. And then the next year, the first six months. I was I felt that I was performing, you know, as average and the last six months is when one of the analysts who was an analyst that should have been a VP, he was an absolute all star, was able to learn under him. He had patients, you know, he was just a really good guy and like, yeah, he'd make fun of you. But like, he was very good and like allowed you almost to work underneath him. And like, I grabbed every opportunity. Then he quit. Then he quit and went to Hyg in Miami, actually. And I was able to work directly for the MD that he was working and I was like, I am not ready for this, but I'm not going to get another opportunity like this. And it was it was amazing.
Brian: [00:46:44] Like the MD that I worked for was a very tough guy. But he also like, if you did stuff wrong, even if it was stuff that he knew that you shouldn't necessarily know yet. He's like, if you want the responsibility of acting like an associate or VP on a deal, you don't even have to say this is just like, then you've got to be able to perform. Otherwise, I'm more than happy to bring someone over you. And he didn't say that again, but I felt it and I just worked even harder. You know, my hours during that year were crazy. The market was a little bit lighter in that year, so the first year analysts were actually not getting a great experience. But I was still working those crazy hours because I was going through commitment papers and loan documents to be able to be like, I need to put together a summary on this, and I don't even know what half the things mean. So it was just like I was able to leverage our lawyers and to be able to have them explain it to me and the nice ones where would explain it to me in detail. And it's just having that experience is what really pushed me up. So by the end of my second year, I knew that I was towards the top of the class. And when we had my bonus conversation, I was given middle bucket and I basically said again, my aggressive side was like, Thank you, I appreciate it.
Brian: [00:47:49] But I felt that I was a little bit of a higher performer. And they basically said the second half of the year you were, but the first half of the year you weren't. I was like, You're going to pay me based on that. There is something that is fair about that, but it's also like something that's really annoying about that. Yeah. And then in my third year, I knew that I was towards the top of my class. I mean, granted, a lot of people had already left at that point. Yeah, but I was performing just to the same level as I felt the top performers were better than some. So once I that was a huge achievement to feel for me because then it was like. My confidence just got even higher, and then it's like, I can do what I want now, and that's when I remember in my second year somebody had left to start their own company and I was like, Are you crazy? Like, you are on a trajectory to make such good money and you're just walking away to start your own thing and like, it just doesn't make sense to me. That just speaks to how risk averse I was and the way I was brought up to just be like, You have to, you know, if you find something, work hard and just be a hard worker, and then it's just funny how looking back now, it was not only that guy.
Brian: [00:48:52] I didn't take a salary for my first year, but yeah, I basically made it till just at the end of my third year and I was offered the associate. I'm for and I accepted it because I thought I was going to stay until high due to the following year, and I didn't tell anybody internally that I got an offer besides for the people that I had set up to to give a. In banking, they don't care about your employees knowing, and it's good because the culture is usually accept that. But I had to give them three or four names of people who they can get recommendations from and referrals, and they asked them for referrals. So everyone knowing anyway. But I signed it and then literally a few days later, I ended up taking it back because Hyg came to me and said, we have this opportunity to work at portfolio companies. So they were annoyed at that. They're like, you just accepted at least to be an associate. We thought, you're going to be our long term. And it's just like, you know, and I I didn't feel bad at all. I was just like,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:49:53] Now the 30 year analyst, they were giving you the associate promote if you stayed for like another year kind of thing.
Brian: [00:49:58] Well, it was associate promote. Like now you're a full time employee. It was no longer like a one year contract. It was like the expectation was, you're with us forever. Um, and so I signed that, and so they were like, OK, now we have like a good core, whatever and then leaving, it's just we were a relatively small group, so there was only like a couple of associates or whatever. Yeah, like what is more, there's like six or seven, but like three of us were coming in from the analyst class and a lot of the associates that come in from MBA. I know the MBAs are not going to be happy to hear this, but you will never catch up as an MBA associate. You will not catch up to any decent analyst who started three years before me and for you. And it just it makes sense. Like they know the group, they know how things work. And yes, you have a different skill that you bring, but it doesn't matter enough in the context of where you are now. And it was very frustrating. I guess this is a message to some people who come in as an MBA associate. There were certain people who knew it and they were like, Dude, like, I'm here to work under you. Like, Teach me, you know? Yeah. And there's other people who are just like trying to push authority because like, I'm above you and I was like, that's not going to bother me. It's going to annoy me, but it's just going to play poorly for you because I'm going to end up either pushing the work on you and you're going to get in trouble because you're not going to have it the way it's supposed to be or you're going to lean on me and I'm going to sort of, you know.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:17] So, yeah, in terms of like them trying to like, assert their even though they were associates, they felt superior because they had the MBA. You feel like,
Brian: [00:51:26] Yeah, and the fact that they were an associate, they were just like, All right, I know, like, you're not happy about me coming in above you. But I was like, I don't mind, I don't care about a title or whatever it is. It's just like, you need to understand that if you're going to want to run this, you're not going to do as good a job as forget me for anyone who's been here for two to three years because we just know the system
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:45] Better than you. Yeah, we've been working crazy hours, the 80 plus hour weeks for.
Brian: [00:51:49] Yeah, and so you're exactly in the longer run and the longer run it might benefit you, the fact that you got the MBA. So in three years, you might then be ahead of me because you had three years of experience, but you had what you needed and now you have this MBA plus other different experiences. So you might. But in the meantime, like, there's no there's no way.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:52:09] No, I think that's a well-known thing is the Post MBA Associates coming to banking, especially if they didn't do banking pre MBA. It's usually a really tough role for poor people because especially when they have to go work with experienced analysts, if they don't like bow down to them, it can be very ugly.
Brian: [00:52:26] Yeah. Another piece of advice I would give to someone in that position or in just coming in as an analyst is people will be on you the second you do anything that is not up to their highest demand, so you are going to be criticized. But most of the time you need to realize that there is a lot more leeway in terms of you losing your job, that you shouldn't just get discouraged and say, like, All right, it's been two weeks and I've been yelled at for every single deliverable I've given as an analyst. You mean coming in? Yeah, analyst or even if you're a brand new associate, and that might happen. But yeah, this is for both. Equally, it's there is a lot more leeway. They actually prefer not to fire you because it looks bad. And if you're horrible, they usually unless you're so bad, they need to get rid of you right away. But if you're like even just bad and not great, they're going to probably hold you until your two years is up and then just not give you a 30 year offer, right? That should just give most people, like once you're in the door, just take advantage. And as long as you work hard, you will not get respect, but you will not be removed for most likely from your position, and you'll be able to get the time you need to advance.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:53:31] No, I agree with that. I mean, I think if I look back at my analyst class at Rothchild, it was 12 of us and I think, you know, people knew who was who was working hard and who wasn't. And he came it became pretty obvious who was actually working on live deals and who was stuck on these like middling pitches with no hope of anywhere but Yemen. The learning curve was brutal for me. I came at a liberal arts college, so it was like I knew nothing coming out of training. Nothing. I had no interest or anything shocking.
Brian: [00:54:02] Like when you get in there, you're like, How do they have this expectation? But then you realize to the point I was saying before is like, they expect you, but they also give you the leeway to be able to make it. So it's just like, just try your hardest and definitely try not to piss people off and like, you know, don't be so aggressive. And for the most part, when it came to that, I was very quiet, did not like there were a few times where I might have been out of line, just like I feel like most people were. But you just take it. Whatever it's coming from, it makes you better, even if it's done in the wrong way. You know, it's just like and it doesn't matter what their intentions are, it just matters that, you know, there were some people that I worked with that I didn't really like as people, but they were just so good at what they did and learning under them just changed my career. It really it really did, you know?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:54:49] So awesome. So, OK, so you're kind of coming into that 30 year, you get the associate offer, you sign it, then you kind of renege on it because you get the hyg offer to leave early and you're like, Hey, I'd rather rather than continue to do reps in investment banking. Let me go get this new kind of interesting experience trying to sell this company for AIG. So you do that for a year. Tell me what was the transition like there and then specifically once you actually started in private equity?
Brian: [00:55:14] So the transition was great because, like it was casual attire I was in, you know? Most of the personalities, or at least I was in an office in the company, was based out of Winnipeg, in Canada, but I was they had been bought out by. But when they were brought up HIV, they removed the management team that was in Winnipeg and they hired people within the New York, New Jersey area, actually on New Jersey. So they had a small office in Montclair, New Jersey. So thankfully I did not have to move to Winnipeg. You know, no offense to Winnipeg
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:55:52] Canadians, and
Brian: [00:55:54] I had gone there twice. It's a good place to visit. But like, yeah, I would not have want to live there. Coming out of New York City for a year long or 10 months long. But, you know, the CFO and the CEO were both like type A, but they were also like, very culturally different when they were like older and they've been doing these jobs for a long time. There's just like, Oh, we talk about our families and we talk about our friends and like, it's just like the CFO is like, really chill. You know, she would like just ask me my personal life and also just like, tell me, like sit down, like, let's just talk for two hours and like, ask me what you want, you know? And she was just she was just a good mentor. She was very, very sharp as a boss, sharp in terms of intellect, but also sharp in terms of like, especially when things are under pressure. It's like, I need this, I need this done now and I need it done right. And she doesn't believe you can do it. She'll give up on you, which didn't really happen. Besides four at the very beginning, but she was had me working with other people. It was surprising to see that just in an ice company based out of Winnipeg, that the at least at the high level, you know, there was. That is true. Yeah, it's driven by management teams that have worked for private equity in the past, and it's just very different because it's like they're answering to a boss and it's like it's not only me running the company and answering to the board, it's the board is a private equity team that I just I need to do right by them because I'm going to be one of the first things that they consider removing.
Brian: [00:57:27] In order to make things better, if I'm not performing, you know, so it was stressful environment when as the process got a little bit more intense, when it was just like a lot of diligence questions and how you handle it and this and that. But it was really, really just got so lucky to have an amazing experience because I was able to be so much part of the process. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to be part of the negotiation as much as I'd like to because I was not a member of the company who was staying on after. So they did not expose me at all to they ended up selling something to Blackstone. I was not able to really talk with them and purposefully not talk with them at all or negotiate with them at all. I had some contact with the banking analysts on our sell side for AIG, but like I was definitely left out of that. They also didn't really want me to go to like the debt investor meetings because of that. But in terms of the roadshow for
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:58:24] People like pick your brain about the financials or something like that?
Brian: [00:58:26] Exactly. And just like it was like, we don't you're not part of the company going forward. So like, we don't want anybody, you know, it's unlikely that anybody would know or care, but we just want to make sure that we're keeping an extra precaution. Got it. But I did get the opportunity to go to a bunch of the management presentations where you're able to sit across management and basically just grill them. And, you know, I mean, obviously a different way. Just digging into things and. Those meetings helped me significantly for HIV, because a lot of analysts are scared to ask questions because they're afraid they're going to be stupid when you're in a meeting with your VP, principal and Andy, and there are certain times again where I almost ask the most questions in those meetings because I had the experience during the management presentations. I didn't talk much during the management presentations, but I was just able to observe how things worked and I so consistently. Sometimes things were uptight. Sometimes things are very loose. It was just it was just an awesome opportunity. Board meetings, everything like that. It was my first exposure to it and I had more exposure to what was going on under the hood than a panellist who's just seeing what's going on in the meeting. So interestingly, when the relationships between the company and as in any relationship, the company and the firm, I was able to see both sides of it to see who's talking about who, who's saying what, who's annoyed at what. And seeing that is obviously a social business concept, meaning you're able to learn the things that aren't just technical and you're learning how people work and stuff like that. So it was interesting from multiple different angles
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:59:58] To see if it were being pissed that they're pushing her to do whatever.
Brian: [01:00:01] And yeah, and like, who's right? Whose side makes sense? Do they? Are they both right? This is just a matter of a frustrating time and right, you're able to analyze. Can you give
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:00:09] An example like a quick example of that, like something around, like the financials of how is being presented, something like that?
Brian: [01:00:15] Yeah, it's also disagreeing on the way it not even necessarily presented, but something could come up about the way things are being accounted for. And like I was hearing both sides of the argument, it was a very technical accounting argument. Mm hmm. And it was just like, Oh, it was displayed. We're being shown this way like in order to go back and present it in the way that you want it, because we're not, we have to back into things and it would be a rough figure. Or it would be like timeline needs to be updated. It's like, Well, I need a week to do this. And it's like, Well, we need you to do it in two days and it's like, great. There goes my next two nights or three nights, and that's fine for an analyst and an investment bank. But when you're the CFO and you want to get home to your family, it's like, this is terrible, you know? Yeah, yeah. And there was a lot of stuff like that. And like I said, the CFO and the CEO were type A. Just like the PE fund people, most of them are, and it was just it was good, but it was also like butting heads. But you're just able to see like little discrepancies. You're also able to hear when you're on one side of things, you'll be like, Oh, I can't believe they did that, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then you hear the other side, and I can't believe that you hear people's arguments. Mm hmm. So interestingly in entrepreneurship, but probably in general is the thing that you don't realize, even though people say this, but you don't realize how much more important the people element is and the actual technical knowledge and experience at the junior level, it's a lot less important. But in everything you do, especially. But then 10 times more than that entrepreneurship, it's like your skills almost don't matter until the company is already functioning. Like right now. I built a great financial model for our first, our first raise. But like as I was doing it, I was cracking up. I was like assumptions in like all these models are completely estimated as it is now. I have something that doesn't exist yet and I'm trying to pretend what it's going to be. And I built a really great model. But like in my mind, I was like, If anybody challenges this, it's like there are, of course, right? Because I know nothing and it's just it's so subjective.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:02:11] So let's pivot to that because you were only at AIG for a little, for a little bit, and then you started chatting with your buddies and said, Hey, I got to go create this, this Laci's company.
Brian: [01:02:22] Yeah. So the like,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:02:24] Why did you feel it was you had mentioned somebody had seen this like, Oh, we could do this ourselves? Like why or why not?
Brian: [01:02:31] So my current partner was working. I said at a big saw company that built a really strong brand around their stocks, and they took off and doing great right now, and he's still working for them as a as a consultant. But he's moved on to something else and he works with us sort of part time. Like I said, he's more of like the connections and like general marketing and stuff like that. Yeah, and he's just very involved in that world. It's sort of like a street wear type brand, but it's not honed in to only people who are street wear. It's a family oriented business as well. So I was on a trip with. Again, they wanted me to see the management team gave me an opportunity this wasn't even the team as the management team to see all the different production facilities. And you think packaged ice, that's what the company did. It's called Arctic Glacier. They sold packaged ice. You'd think like it's frozen water. Like how hard can it be? And so their best plans were in California. So I went on a business trip for a week into Sacramento, and then we drove all the way down to multiple different plants from there down to Oceanside, which is south of L.A., near to San Diego, actually. So we did sort of like a California road trip, really cool guy, older guy, chill guy. And he was a manufacturing specialist. So he was basically. I was latching on to his trip because he was doing manufacturing business, but I wasn't there with really any takeaways besides for like just try and learn what you can. And it was awesome and I actually learned that I believe right now that my the appropriate and best role for me would be an operations role with a finance mixed into it in terms of what I'm passionate about. Hmm. That's what I enjoy most in terms of. My company now is developing the new products from scratch. Obviously, I don't have the background, engineering background or anything, but leveraging others and just sort of being obsessed with the process really helps you learn a lot. So while I was there, I was just asking every single thing was understanding like literally how. Ammonia is put through the pipes and how it gets hotter and colder and how they make so many pounds of ice in a day and how they deliver it in the freezer trucks and just like it was just learning the economics and really understanding the business. And I've always been the type to feel if I don't know a lot about something, I'm going to fall behind. But I actually criticize people in finance because they only need to know a certain amount in order to play the game well. But it's just like you don't know what you're talking about and the management team or the engineers know better, and you need to take the advice from them and have it translated into financials more than just, you know. And again, I'm speaking out of two sides of my mouth because the finance game is one that is obviously proven to work and there are engineering experts within there as well, and there are operating consultants and stuff like that. But most people just are satisfied with knowing what they need to know in order to get a deal done. And I just have an intense thirst for knowledge, one because I want to know because I like knowing, but also because I feel like I need to be like when it comes to leases again, you think a place is simple, like there's just every part of it is just complex in order to try and make a premium product. So anyway, so the company started. The idea came in twenty sixteen. I was on business in California and was visiting my friends in Oceanside, and it was just supposed to be a shooting the breeze type of lunch. And we ended up just talking a lot more seriously and it turned into starting this. This company, it was starting a company. We didn't know what we wanted to do. We'd come up with like unbreakable shoelaces, which existed, but we came across a material, get into too much of the detail. Then we left his office that day and set up a WhatsApp chat with him and the two other friends because it was like half a joke at that point, if not more. I'm like, we got to start this now. Like, Let's just talk. So we got on the phone like once a week we were talking in the WhatsApp chat. Most of that was like just fun and again, shooting the breeze and just making fun of each other like, you know? And then it ended up I ended up like pushing and working with my dad to try and get samples and our first sample of the laces we ended up releasing in February. We incorporated in January twenty seventeen, our first laces in February of twenty seventeen and they were crap. And I mean, it was awesome to see like a first new product, but they were. They were crap. So yeah, the decision to start this was I have an opportunity now where I feel like I have a good understanding of business at a high level. And I'm also like, I feel like I have enough of a sponge in me to be able to learn what I need to learn. Like most entrepreneurs, that start, businesses are not geniuses. A lot comes with it, and it just really working hard and trying hard. And this partner was sort of a marketing guy, and he had a lot of connections. So I was like, let's start based on that. And it was very slow, especially when none of us were full time. And then we're like, We need to raise more money. With that money, we able to get licenses for the MLB and the NBA. That helped a little bit.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:07:24] We had what about that is isn't that tough to get those licenses?
Brian: [01:07:27] So ordinarily is ordinarily is. But this guy, he was the head of licensed sports or he was so he had those relationships on tap, you know, perfect. Yeah. So we were able to get them and then we didn't want to be a sports Lacey's brand. We wanted to be like a lifestyle brand, but we wanted to have that sports as a component and that sort of helped us. We had someone of his connections help us. We gave we set up a partnership and engage with him to help us get into some stadiums and just a lot of learnings. We get into the stadiums and you're put on a wall in the back or you're put on a racquet with playing cards and like, we have a really nice packaging and it's just like. We did a big run, and it's just like there were no sales in certain places and then like Yankee Stadium, for instance, there is just like no sales. They sold like 12 in three months. Yeah. And then we put a nice rack in the front of the store like we help. We used our connection to help us get better placement within their main store at Yankee Stadium and put it on a fixture that we bought to, like, test out. And we sold like a hundred fifty pair in a few games, you know, and everything ebbs and flows. And it's just really hard product to market. There's. We knew this going in. There's a lot. It's just hard to get people to change their shoelaces over their socks or whatever it is. But our target consumer was the sneaker head community and our content has really, really gotten good and our product has gotten really, really good. I know it's just a shoelace, but like, I'm proud of how far we've come in terms of printing and weaves and the packaging. It's just it's come a really long way. And so, like I said, corona right now is definitely putting a little bit of a damper on things, but everyone's going through that. But overall, it's just. It's nothing that being an entrepreneur and I'm not saying that I call myself an entrepreneur because until you have that first success, I you're a wannabe until you are, but I'm living the life, you know, I took no salary for a year and now once we raised our seed round, I'm making a salary. That's probably, you know. At Max, 20 percent of what I feel like I could be making, and it's just like, you know, that's tough and it just it takes a toll on you and some days are just like, we have no chance and some days you're just like, This is definitely going to work. And it's just you just got to keep moving through it and keep pushing through it. And that's what we've been doing and what's
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:09:43] Next for you guys. And besides this run, and once we get to the other side of corona or whatever, are you? Do you feel like it's just like it's all distribution game right at that point?
Brian: [01:09:53] Well, it's still marketing. And more importantly, branding and branding is something that's defined very differently by people. But we do our marketing in order to build our brand is something that I've struggled with because I believe that most people don't understand what a brand is, including myself and how a brand functions. And my partners challenged me on that. I was trying to come up with something simple at the beginning, just like, put this out there and like, it's almost a clean aesthetic, but it's it goes so much more beyond that. And I'm going to quote Marty Neumeier, who's a famous designer. He's worked for Apple and stuff like that. He has his own agency. He basically said it's. The brand is what's in customers heads. So you're what you say about your brand is not really what your brand is, what you're doing when you're branding is you're trying to build the perceptions in other people's heads to what you want them to be. So that is a really, really complex thing because then you're dealing with people's emotions and what drives them to make purchasing decisions, especially on things that aren't necessary and things that just are supposed to just provide them happiness, you know? Mm hmm. So that's just a big part of what I spend my time. And it's funny because you think you're going to take your finance skills, build a model and do the accounting. And it's great and it absolutely helps me the way I think because now I think more of a business rather than someone who just has a design skill, might not be able to translate it into how a business should function. So it's extremely helpful and necessary. But majority of my stunt, my time is not spent on modeling or otherwise or financials. It's all How do we market? How do we connect with people? How do we get people to buy it? So I think we're I'm a pretty constructive person and obviously I'm biased. I think that the place that we're at not necessarily in terms of our growth in numbers. Putting that aside, because everything has been ebbing and flowing and random times, it will be better in random times. We'll be worth worse. I think that it's just we're in a very creative mindset. You know, where we hired a new creative in October who is outstanding? He's been extremely helpful and we fight in a really good way. All of us like we trust each other and we get on each other's throats. But at the end of the day, we are able to put our egos aside and it really is developing into. At times it's bad, but a lot of times developing into like a good culture of just trying to, like put our all our heads together to make a better company, a better brand, the better product, better everything.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:12:18] Sounds like a blossoming you're doing with some friends, so it's like a dream. So there are a lot of people.
Brian: [01:12:23] It's funny that you say that because it is a nightmare also. Yes, the stress that comes along with it, and I know this is almost cliche to say because there's so many books about it. But like I am going through the same things as the people who made the biggest startups in the world. But the chances of me being able to get to what they got to are so small just because of how statistics work. So when you're in this, it's so much harder. And then in 20 years, you know, and I'm a billionaire entrepreneur, I'm able to write a book, then it'll be easy to look back and say, Oh, stressful this and that. But while you're going through it, it's like it might be for nothing and not only for nothing. The opportunity cost of not building wealth, you know, it really takes a toll on you. Hmm. And also feeling helpless in times when you just feel like you don't have the right skills to be able to help in an area that you need and not knowing where to find the right people or being able to hire talent because you don't have the cash to be able to pay them the salary that, like these things, are really, really, really hard and having to be obligated or feeling the obligation of having investors invest in you and being responsible for what they invest in and knowing, especially at an early stage, you can give them back nothing. It's just a very, very hard thing. And it took me a really long time to be able to find some stability and just accepting the extremes and trying to find a place in the middle, you know?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:13:44] Yeah, no. I think I feel it too. I think I came at it a little bit differently. We not having a physical product. We never really raised any money, but it was still stressful once I made the leap.
Brian: [01:13:58] I can relate.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:14:00] But yeah, listen, anything else you want to share with our younger listeners before we call it, you know, any advice or advice to your younger self?
Brian: [01:14:10] Yeah, I mean, again, I'm in a place where I think in 10 years, I'll have hopefully more advice to give. I'm not I'm not yet successful to the extent that people, other people might not see it, but I had the access, the success that I needed to be in. Everybody's different. But I think most importantly is. Understand how risk reward works and use it to make decisions, but don't let other people let other people influence you, but don't let them influence you in a way where they're going to make the decision for you. You need to use other people to develop an understanding of how your world will work to the extent you could possibly know it, and the risk reward of me jumping out of a private equity job when I worked my ass off to get it and start a new company. Most of my friends were just like, I'm actually willing to invest in you because you're that crazy. There is a board doesn't make sense, but to me, the risk reward is my life. It's I don't want to look back and regret it. So if I end up failing, which I might fail once, I might fail twice. But I believe in the end those things will help me succeed. And I still believe that even on my worst days, I think it's really just about. Understanding that the risk reward for me was it's such a big risk to not do this because I will always live with the regret of not doing it. So looking at it, a financial risk reward is kind of silly. And I also built up enough of a background where there are so many things that I can do within finance or startups and everything like that, like the skills that I've learned from an entrepreneur is one the emotional side of it, but to just having to just think of everything on your own and being fully responsible. So I would just, yeah, just tell people to just really think for yourself and assess your world in the way that you want to and. Whatever makes you happy, but also look down the line to make sure that you're going to keep yourself consistently happy over time. Awesome.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:16:03] Well, thank you so much, Brian, for taking the time to share your wisdom with everybody here.
Brian: [01:16:07] Yeah, it's not much wisdom yet, but yeah, thanks so much for. Thanks so much for having me.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:16:11] And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.
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