WSO Podcast | E115: Partner in Private Equity with Real Estate IB/PE Background
About
In this episode, Daniel shares his long and winding path in finance careers. Initially getting his undergrad degree, a CPA and a Masters in Finance in France, he moved the USA with Deloitte in their restructuring practice. From there, he used an MBA from NYU Stern to jump into investment banking at Lehman Brothers, starting as an associate with 3 young kids. We learn how he was able to make the jump into a real estate private equity fund and what happened 4 years later during the Great Financial Crisis. Listen to hear some wise advice on how to survive many twists and turns!
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WSO Podcast (Episode 115) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me as I talk to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, Daniel shares his long and winding path in finance careers, initially getting his undergrad degree, a CPA and a master's in finance in France. He moved to the U.S. with Deloitte in their restructuring practice. From there, he used an MBA from NYU Stern to jump into investment banking at Lehman Brothers. Starting as an associate with three young kids, we learn how he was able to make the jump into real estate private equity fund and what happened four years later during the Great Financial Crisis. Listen to here are some wise advice on how to survive many twists and turns. Enjoy. Daniel, thanks so much for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast. You're welcome. Nice to nice to be here. It'd be great if you could just give the listeners a short summary of your bio.
Daniel: [00:01:15] Sure. Daniel Rubin French originally can't hide my accent. I've been in the states for more than 20 years. I have a background. I wear many hats in my career, in my life.But I've been a consultant. I've been an investment banker or private equity guy, and now I have my own investment firm.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:37] Great. So let's start all the way back when I assume you got your undergrad degree, was it in in France?
Daniel: [00:01:45] Yeah, I got my undergrad in France and have a CPA background, so I would be a CPA.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:52] Yeah. Ok, so when you were when you were an undergrad thinking of your long career ahead of you that you had yet to embark on? How much was it? I'm going to go into accounting because of what your parents were telling you. How much was it because you just loved accounting and love finance? Or tell me how much of it was like, Yeah.
Daniel: [00:02:10] Yeah. So surprisingly, I loved accounting, and I still love accounting. I think it's it's when when you're in that line of business, if you don't understand accounting and journal entries, you can't read a balance sheet and it's very difficult to make a deal work. So I still believe it's like it's the basics that everyone should have. Now, when I started my career, it was a long time ago and not so long, but it was the 90s and surprisingly, when I stated that to my kids, there was no really internet there and back then and I didn't know anything. Back in France, in Paris, I didn't know much about finance, investment banking, private equity and to show you how much I didn't know about it was when I got my. I got a master's degree in France and one year I got my being in the US. But when I got my master's degree, I got two summer internship in private equity and investment banking. And literally not only I didn't know the difference between the two, but like I was in touch in price, I happened to to I chose the private equity one, but more just because I knew the bank and it was BNP Paribas funded cruel and the location was great. I went there, but when I was done with my.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:30] Tell me a little bit about why you so you were you were actually a manager at Deloitte for a while, right? Yeah. But tell me a little bit about what prompted you to go get the MBA in the U.S..
Daniel: [00:03:41] Yeah. So once I was done with that, with that internship, for me, it was all about going into accounting and audit. So I went to Deloitte audit and after a couple of years I realized it was a mistake and I didn't like it. I mean, not a mistake. You learn a lot and it's it's it's really good.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:58] Was it just to you like you were just doing the same thing after a few years, you just felt like you
Daniel: [00:04:02] Do the same thing. Same thing over and over again. But again, something you learn how to read, financial statements, you learn how to spot mistakes, fraud. And so I think so.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:13] Did you learn more from working or from the CPA designation?From working, always from working.
Daniel: [00:04:20] Nothing beats experience. But then after a couple of years, I wanted to do something different and I wanted to think the Deloitte to do restructuring and turn around and either advising distressed companies or the creditors of distressed companies. And that was great. And when I did that, I did that for three years and in between. This is when I wanted to move to the United States. I didn't want to stay in Europe. I wanted to be my career in the US. And so I moved with Deloitte. I moved to New York right here in 2000, one year before the the the internet bubble and I worked in in restructuring, helping distressed companies now after a couple of years through the truth. It was kind of depressing. I mean, all my friends were working in startup and internet companies thinking about growth and how like you could become a millionaire.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:14] You were in restructuring from ninety nine to twenty two. I was in restructuring from 2002 to 2004. You should have done it in reverse after the bubble burst. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. More business.
Daniel: [00:05:25] And, you know, 2001, 2002, even if you like. Unfortunately, we got some, some business after September 11 and it was like a spike already. But yeah, it was. It's just it was depressing going into companies and firing people and shutting down facilities and it just, you know. So as I was doing GS and I was working, I realized that there was this world of investment banking and private equity. And when I was dealing with these guys, I was like, That's what I want to be. I should be on the other side of the table. I shouldn't be where I sit. So doing some research, I said, OK, you know what? I'm a French guy. I may have a good diploma in France and the good and and the good pedigree as we speak.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:09] But you got to U.S., yeah, you had a masters.
Daniel: [00:06:12] Yeah, I had the best in the master masters in French already and financial engineering, but I knew I was no. One. If I didn't have like some sort of stamp of approval so applied to business school got into NYU Stern full time. So I left Deloitte work two years there and my goal was to do it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:33] Did you have money saved up? How did you pay for that? Because I know Stern's not cheap and you're living in the city. Yeah, very expensive. A lot of debt. Did you take on some debt or you just, yeah,
Daniel: [00:06:42] You're three three. It's for semester three semesters, two semester student debt, one semester. My, my father and one semester my wife paid for it. She was still working.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:54] So that's awesome. So yeah, but it was split up. Ok, so tell me, do you feel like it was worth it because you came out and you got that banking job?
Daniel: [00:07:04] Yes, so so definitely worth it, because my goal was, OK, I need to work in investment banking and the only way to do it is to get my MBA. Now, when you start in business school for your audience, the people who wants to get into an MBA, it's a two-year program. But if you want to go into banking, the first three months are the most intense. Why? Because you know, you start new life classes, you have to go back to school and do your homework. But this is when recruiting happens and you have so many. I mean, that was back in 2002, so I switched to the same thing. But so many cocktail parties and an invitation to an interview, and it's for three months. It's nonstop. I mean, at the end of three months, I had this type of business card like big like this and it was, you know, you meet a lot of people now. It was worth it because when it came for interviewing you, it's like, who makes it to the closest or not? I was
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:02] Invited to make it to the whether or not
Daniel: [00:08:04] The closed list so you have a closed list, a closed list where each bank says I'm going to. These are the 10 students that we interview for the internship
and and you know, you need to be on the interview only like 10 or 15 students. Now you want to be in as many banks closed list as possible. I made it 11 out of 12 banks pretty much was pretty good. The only bank that didn't I didn't get on the list was Goldman Sachs.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:34] Was there a disadvantage? Was was there a disadvantage to coming from France or do you think an advantage in terms of like accent? It's not international exposure. Did you feel like it helped you stand out a little bit?
Daniel: [00:08:45] Yeah, it helps you. It helps you because you know how many Americans you have out there that went to Ivy League and and they already did like to your analyst to bulge bracket or small bank like you bring something different, right? I could say, Listen, I have exposure to the European market. I have exposure like I was a restructuring guy, so I had exposure to distressed companies or anything that, you know, makes a difference. Always help.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:15] And plus the CPA background, plus the CPA back in the restructuring, you could really lean on like, I understand, complex capital structures that I'm not coming from. Like, Yeah, I'm not coming from a pre MBA banking background, but I might as well be.
Daniel: [00:09:28] Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And so, so, so so I ended up at Lehman Brothers.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:35] Tell me why you chose Lehman. Is it the only offer you got or what do you have several offers? And why didn't you
Daniel: [00:09:40] Know I got others? But the when you're in, when you look at all these banks, be what you look at at the end of the day because they are,It's almost the same thing. You do the same type of Pitchbook. And so what we used to say in business school is you look at the asshole ratio and how many ASR they are in the bank and how miserable your life would be or not. And literally the two best banks back then and now Lehman is gone, but was in terms of the lowest asset ratio was Lehman Brothers and Goldman Sachs. And these were the banks where you could see that, you know, people were in part, it wasn't just about you were not,If you know,The book monkey business that every ambition
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:35] Has to. That's why Wall Street was this is all about monkeys. Ok, OK. Yeah, I read,
Daniel: [00:10:39] I read that book, and when I read that book, I was like, Holy crap, but I get myself into, you know, like, do I really want to do that?And and and literally, when you these two banks, it was for me, you know, like I had to read your funny. When I started in banking, I had a wife and I had three kids.As an associate,You had
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:58] Three kids.
Daniel: [00:10:59] How old were kids when you started young people like my I had twin boys that were four months old. They were born just before I graduated from school and one kid who was two years old.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:11] So imagine I have a four two and a one year old, so I kind of like a little bit get in what you're into. You're horrible.
Daniel: [00:11:17] But now, you know, when you work in banking and you come back at five a.m. or six a.m. and you have to be back in the office at nine a.m. and you have two choices, either you go to bed for an hour or you don't sleep, and at least you can enjoy your kid for one hour before taking a shower and going back to the office. These are the type of things that you have to start thinking about when you have a family and you do banking. But look, I did it. I don't regret it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:43] But so you were talking about the asshole factor ratio was pretty good at Lehman in at Goldman. Yeah. Was this a scientific thing or just based on your your cocktail chats like you personally thought that it was pretty well known around? And was this
Daniel: [00:11:59] Nyu? Yeah, it was not one. It was well-known, but. You could feel it. You when you had a cocktail party with lemon guys and women or Goldman Sachs, they were. You know, normal people, you could you could have a good discussion, it wasn't just about, I'm going to show you like it's not about ego, right? And I could show you how smart I am and how work, how hard I work. And it was, you know, you could see that you could become friends with more people and that's more human. And that's what you want to do. Because remember, when you go into banking, you have your three meals, breakfast, lunch and dinner in the office. This becomes your second family and you have to you have to like the people you. And you know, it's it's it's important. So I don't want to talk negatively to. No, no, no.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:56] I get the idea. But you were most attracted to those banks because of the way you felt in terms of how they interact with you, how human they seemed, how there was outside interests outside of banking. No, the egos seem to be a little bit more under control. I get it. I still had three kids and you started there. Where are you coming home at five a.m. and then kind of spending one hour with your kid and going back to the office.
Daniel: [00:13:18] It happened a few times more than a few times.But geez,This one is all the new
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:22] Years and you did it for two years.
Daniel: [00:13:24] I did for two years. Most of the
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:25] Time, I hope you got two bonuses. You get two bonuses.Yeah, right.That's what I. That's why. Two bonuses. That's right. But you know, most of the time I would come, I would come around
Daniel: [00:13:37] Midnight, not five a.m., You know, that would be the the the worst I did was something like fifty or fifty five hours. No sleep. Nothing. Right, right.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:49] That's how I did for. That's I thought that was bad.
Daniel: [00:13:53] Yes. And but, you know, with the adrenaline, you don't feel it. That's the thing. But while I learn something you know, I don't regret at all, because first two years in banking, it's four years in other industries.So.And you work with very super smart people. And that was that's what was impressive like you.You know, you sit down with, I would sit down with my empty and there would be top notch like in terms of technical analysis,Like, you know, like finance was still even at forty five fifty five. They will know everything about that. I just run in business school. They would look at my mother and five seconds, maybe before they will spot the errors like they would be. They were very, very shocked. And so it's, you know, it's it's a great community for me to be part of and you learn a lot and you
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:52] Busy 04 to 06. Lot of things going on, right? A lot
Daniel: [00:14:56] Of elbow. I was in the Industrial Harmony Group, so our clients were KKR or Blackstone. They were doing all these big deals. But when I went into banking, it was always the idea of eventually going to private equity.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:12] And did you feel like I'm trying to think back then, was it very standard back then where it was very hard to break into private equity as a post MBA associate? Was that difficult back then as well? A little bit, yes.
Daniel: [00:15:25] You know, the private sector, I don't know how difficult or easy it is. It's almost
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:30] Impossible. It's almost impossible without free MBA private equity experience. Right now it's I've interviewed two people out of one hundred and thirty guests or so, I guess that I've spoken with and I think only two and even those two surprised me. And when I hear the stories of how they got in, they basically didn't stop until they got it.
Daniel: [00:15:48] Exactly. Look, and I tell you how it got in, but yeah. Yes. But then the problem is your competition, right? So I got I got to start with someone went to Harvard. I went to Goldman Sachs, where someone went to Goldman Sachs pre MBA. I went into Deloitte Consulting with someone was at McKinsey. You know, there's always someone that can talk to you. That makes it very difficult. Right? It's not that many jobs, especially if you want to stay like in New York City. So there's location and there is the industry. So it was very difficult to break in and being a banker, it's like, you know, how they say, like every U.S. senator, they are senator, but we need their dream is to become president. Well, every bankers, they wouldn't say, but their dream is to go on the other side and be and be on the buy side and being private equity. So you have this competition, people you have to fight with, so to speak and to get into private equity. I. I contacted a lot of people and sent my résumé, and I had some connection, but still it's it's like I said, it's very difficult and you have to adapt, you have to be lucky.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:01] But when did when did you start? So like, you knew that banking was like, you know, help you pay back your loans. But you sacrificed a lot because you had three young kids then. So tell me a little bit about when you started looking. Was it in that second year or did you write when you had the job? Did you immediately start building that network? Tell me about how you kind of laid the foundation to make that jump.
Daniel: [00:17:22] Yeah, so when I studied at Lehman Brothers, it was always in the back of my mind, right? So when we when I started, you do like a rotational program and I knew that the the the group that will allow me where we have the highest probability to get into private equity was industrial M&A. Why? Because there's a lot of private equity acquirers, industrial companies, mature companies, stable cash flow, easy to do in their own right. If I had chosen, I don't know, technology communication. Maybe if you want to go into D.C. but more difficult if you if you want to be in private equity. So my goal from the beginning was, I need to get into that group. I it was a lot of politics.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:13] That's interesting because I wouldn't think industrials is like the top. It's typically not the most sought after, but it's a good point. Industrial typically has a lot of leverage,
Daniel: [00:18:24] A lot of leverage. It's if you look at it back in the day, right in 2004, industrial M&A like this is this is where we're doing all the largest LBO and you see the work picture to take care. And Blackstone, where like this was the back then, you know, we're pitching like 20, 30, 40 billion dollar IPO. It doesn't exist anymore, and maybe it will come back. But but that was the group. It was well known. It was called industrial M&A with our clients were not GE or Tyco. It was on a piece of that. That's got it. So I need to get into that group. I worked hard, a lot of politics schmoozing, you know, it's a Lehman to build a rotational group. And once I was in that particular group and remember the only 10 people out of the entire class, every school right at Lehman that would get into that group then perform well. And again, it's all about. You know, making a name for yourself and making the right connection and how do you
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:28] Do that besides besides good work, error-free work, working hard, working late? Is there anything else you're doing in terms of like trying to be, you know, trying to make that personal connection with those senior bankers on your team?
Daniel: [00:19:41] Well, first, you have to be yourself, right? It's part of you try to make some money. So when you're not, and what I did was find the person that's influential, influential and that, you know, we have like, say or could talk on your behalf and basically say, You know what, I'll be your wingman like, literally, I won't let you down. I do whatever it takes. And no complaint.And you have always like an A-plus job. I will make your life easier. So finding the right guy or woman and showing them that you will make their life easier
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:18] Showing them, though not telling them exactly so.
Daniel: [00:20:22] And it's what which what you do doing the the the the rotational program. And that's that's what I did.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:30] That's only like a week
Daniel: [00:20:31] Or two, right? It's one month.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:34] So it's one month. Ok, so you had some time?
Daniel: [00:20:36] Yeah. So you have some weight, but it goes very fast also. For weeks, it's nothing. It's nothing you know you're known about in your industry. So I had I forgot I had the consumer and industrial and communication. These were my three groups and I was able to get into into industry. And then when I got into so from the beginning, I knew, OK, that's what I'm going to stay there a year and a half, two years. And basically, by the end of of my first year of associates, this is when I have to start looking for a job. And so sent a lot of resumes. Talk to other people. This is where you play the end, where you start having you go back to that network and in business school and trying to find the opportunity. But again, it was very difficult. I I don't know. I took to easily 100 people and 200 resume. And then one day, and that's always the way it happens. I get a call from an email from someone and the person says, Hey, I got your resume from so-and-so. At that time, the person was the head of real estate at Warburg Pincus Warburg Pincus, large by itself. I know the guy was retiring from Warburg. I thought he was going to retire, decide to set up his own shop. And he said, Listen, I thought I was going to retire. I got your resume six months ago. I decided to raise a fund and start up on my own. I have 110 million dollars and I just need a guy to help me do this. It's just me and the secretary, and I need another guy. You're a CPA. You know where NYU are and where you you went to Lehman Brothers. I know you. You can do the job, whether it's whatever. So I'm interested. And I told him,Of course,But you have to know something like, I know nothing about real estate. I mean, besides the fact that I got my own place, I own my apartment in Hoboken, New Jersey. Yeah. You know, I specialize in real estate. And you said, like, listen, don't worry you.I teach you the industry like on the ground, you know, like, that's not an issue. Like, as long as I know you have the basics in finance and accounting and so forth, I can teach you the job and I jump on that jump on the night.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:03] Was there a was there a pay cut with that jump? Because I know back in the back with Lehman, the basis probably like close to a hundred thousand or a hundred and twenty even back then.
Daniel: [00:23:14] Yeah, my I think my basis was one thirty or one twenty one thirty. Yeah, yeah. Was the bonus can be a lot. Yeah. Yeah, it was at that time, it was probably like two hundred. Yeah. So yes, you take a pay cut to go into private equity. But I had negotiated some points on the carry of the first part. So if we do well, I'm actually going to do much better.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:40] Can you tell me how you did the calculation on that? I mean, a hundred million dollar fund. So you do the math, right? Yeah. In terms of how you negotiated, was it based on that fund size and trying to figure out, OK, well, if it does decently well, it's going to make up and a little bit better than what I would be if I stayed in banking or you knew you wanted to get out of banking anyway.
Daniel: [00:23:57] So it's like you're willing to take. I knew I wanted to to be thinking, Yeah, I know that in life, you know, you plan for a job, but you never know what happens in life. So. So, you know, it's yeah, long term, it's important. But it's it's really, you know, the type of of position and what you're going to learn. If the money comes like it was less important, the money like it was, I'm breaking into private equity. That's a big deal. Right. So that's what's important. There was a big recession, it was easy, there was no negotiation. She would like a term sheet for me and I forgot I think I had, I think I think I had two percent of of the twenty. That was so it was, it seemed like
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:39] Two percentage of the 20 percent upside. So really Typekit 10 percent, 10 percent of the upside. Ten percent.
Daniel: [00:24:48] Barry, yeah, yeah, no. Two out of 20. So what happened when you say 10 percent of the country, it's like if it's 20 percent Kerry, it would be like, I mean, like, I hav 50 percent.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:00] No, no, no, no. I made 10 percent of the 20. But I know what you mean two to two percent total.
Daniel:00:25:06] Yeah, to the upside. So yeah, so it wasn't that much. But you know what? It didn't matter if it was about. Look at the way I say it is. I'm going to work directly for someone who was the head of state at Warburg Pincus for twenty five years, who himself learn the business from Lionel Pincus. So I got several times a lot of of. Wisdom, folks like Warren Buffett, when he says something and you write it down. So my boss would tell me a lot of stuff like this that where that my other people touch him and this is priceless, right? So so for me, it was more important and what I was going to say before, it's when I left. My parents thought I was crazy. They were like, I said, You're working for Lehman Brothers. That's that's your dream. You know, like a huge thing. And on Wall Street, we were like the kings and you're going to work for the guy, you know, like in small office. And it's why I said, like, trust me, I know what I'm doing, not because I thought that Lehman was going down, but because it was the beginning of something. So went into private equity real estate. And again, this is not what I necessarily wanted to do, but it was something. And here it was very interesting. And you understand why it's difficult to break into private equity because when I started. I had to be completely retrained and like my one of the saying that that my boss used to say, and you said, like an investment banker, differences between the investment banker and the private equity professional is the banker finds any reason to do a deal.Know because she pays a commission. A pretty great guy finds every reason not to do it here. And if he can't find any, then she knows he has a good deal. So when I say to cut deals, you know, and I was I was doing the underwriting, you could see I was thinking like a banker. Yeah, this is great because this and that and you know, I'm much for expansion and revenue growth and whatever. And she would shut down the genie in two seconds. And yeah, you can shut down the deal in two seconds. So it's about learning not to do a deal, basically and finally having discipline issue and, you know, protecting the downside. But basically, right where in banking you don't have that side. As soon as you do that, you can get your commission and you move on. We we are just salesmen. We are a broker. When your investment bank investment banker. That's what we are.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:40] How long did it take you to make that transition where you started looking more critically and you started getting kind of more? Was there any conflict? Was there any like the first year? Was it really tough and he was upset with you? Or was the relationship? Did it stay strong throughout?
Daniel: [00:27:53] Yeah, it stayed strong throughout because he look, he was what was he? And he knew what he was getting into. You hire someone from from Walmart Pincus or another practically shot. He hire a banker.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:07] I would say, do you think he did that? Why, why are you why not hire a kid, pull a kid out from more work in his real estate group?
Daniel: [00:28:17] I asked myself that question, and we should ask you the question, but I think it's look when you are at war with bankers like, do you want to take the risk to go into a small shop and start again when you make a 10 billion dollar shop? So I don't think he could get someone. Then maybe there is like a solicitation, a non-compete. That's difficult. Getting someone from another peace shop, then the prime. It's like the more has been made, right? So at least he could shape me as an investor the way he wanted me to to to think. And I'm grateful because I like the way he thought and the way I learned to be an investor. And I wouldn't
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:00] Be there for four years, there for four years. There's a good run to, yeah, tell me how that evolved. Why leave when you did and all that and what the next step was and how you looked at that.
Daniel: [00:29:10] So the fund was not doing well. We invested in top of the crisis seven
or eight to 2007,2008, 2009
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:19] Vintage. Yep, OK. Let's take one.
Daniel: [00:29:23] Yeah, for real estate from now when we buy back in 2010, we had only invested 50 percent of the fund. So that was the good news. The bad news. We had invested 50 percent of the fund. So at some point, like she couldn't look like too much fixed costs and I was getting more and more expensive.So we separated in good term, by the way, because he said, Listen,I pay, you don't have to work anymore for me. I pay you until you find another job, just find another job. And so back then in 2010, I thought, you know,I'll find another job pretty easily. Right now, I have four years of experience, two years of banking MBA. For me, I've thought even better that you know, that we separate in our site where. Forget it, it's even then,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:12] 2010. Yeah, 2010 ten wasn't a full recovery yet, it was
Daniel: [00:30:16] A slow it wasn't a full recovery. Yeah, and it was so close to with very good friends that close to the final round. But yeah, couldn't find a job.So in private equity.So then I saw this new boutique investment bank that was started by a former Lehman Brothers guys focused solely in real estate. And I said, You know what? I give the guy call. I gave him a call. Within a couple of weeks, he hired me. He was starting his management and I was back in banking. I was miserable. Right now, I'm back in banking now.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:53] It's miserable because the lifestyle went back to what you were like at Lehman. Like it was exactly like it was before, since he had been at Lehman.
Daniel: [00:31:02] No, because now I was like, like a VP or VP. So and it was a boutique shop. But because I learned to and again, nothing against. I have a lot of friends in investment banking, but I learned to despise the investment banking and the investment banker, right? And the industry and the way they think and how it's all about trying to get their fees and and all the B.S. that we put in the presentation just to, you know, three to five years and hoping that when we stick that we were not everything that I learned and I was happy, I learned like I was scared of losing it. You know this mindset? And that was my worried. And that's why I was miserable at the same time, you know? A great guy, and he had a lot of connection, and I worked on very good genes and some aspect of the real estate industry that I haven't seen that at the previous job. So it was it was something good, but here it was small firm backed by two, one very large firm and another small investment bank. At the end of the day, the firm just shut down after a year and a half. So it was good a year and a half, but it shut down. And then now I'm still summer 2011, and that's life, by the way. You know, there will be a lot of ups and downs in life and you're on that. And it's actually good because it's it's
Daniel: [00:32:34] You try to reinvent yourself or think outside of the box and
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:38] It forces you to kind of like, you can't become kind of a passive observer in your own life. It forces you to like, Oh man, like you have to actually take take hold. Whereas oftentimes if you're getting paid well, you're in a decent spot.
Daniel: [00:32:52] You can get some cruise control and do but and it's fine until it's not. And then when it's not, if something happens and you know, I see people getting fired, they are like forty five. They do the same job for four, fifteen years. Then you have a prime be here. Being an entrepreneur, I think it's it's and and being sometimes like seeing off everything, right? Having a job, being well-paid, being unemployed, seeing what it is, what you have to do. And so sometimes being an entrepreneur to to find stuff that's important. And so this is what I did. So back in 2011, I thought. And look, I work in banking are watching practically CPA background, I have two Masters degree.You know why? You know, like I'm in my mid-30s by then, maybe I should strike on my own. Try something so I try to through things.Small advisory, boutique advisory slash investment banking,Working on this. But then this is you. You go through your Rolodex and contacts and you work on this. And at some point I had a pipeline of deals where I remember it was like to me, two or three million dollars of potential fees I could make now in investment banking, or it's it can be anywhere between zero and three million dollars, right, like you. Maybe none of this would happen, but to show you like the type of music, I was working on this in the hundreds of millions of dollars and it was just a one man show. But but I had enough experience grey hair also and contact to make it work. And so I like that. And so I work on the transaction. Yeah, I
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:42] See. Three hundred million in transactions under your. Is that your own thing? Cw.
Daniel: [00:34:48] Also, not so CW, so that was part of one of the things, so for instance,I approached cw capital was or maybe for the second largest special servicer in the United States.And I went to the CEO, which I knew and I said, Listen, you have a great business, a cash cow, right? It's it's the world. It's like we we we did it with all the post-crisis, but it's not going to be this way forever. And you're sitting on a melting iceberg, right? So you need to start thinking about the future and what to do and how to diversify your your revenue stream. And I became like senior advisor, senior investigating a guy like me and they say, OK, you know, like we hire you for six months as an investment banker and help us. And I look at opportunities, and at the end we did three deals. We saw two companies and we acquire one. And helping reshape the company and the company was owned by Fortress. So I was dealing directly with I was working for the CEO and the board and fortunate. But that type of thing that were you to
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:04] Do for that time, for that less than a year where you paid a couple of hundred thousand for that, that work that you did?
Daniel: [00:36:09] Yeah. Yeah, even more than that, yeah, I was paid way because I sold it like this. I said, Listen, it's you'll be making you save money by not hiring the bank. You have your own investment banker. Yeah, I can do this sort of thing, but you know, they have to trust me and and it's good that they they they trusted me. Yeah, give me a shot. But I show them like and they were pissed and they show them how to think differently. So they see also like, you know, it was good for him to have someone that was smart in quote, helping him in the office the board of directors. Right? And knowing that the board of directors you. It was a bunch of fortress guy, you know, like intense, intense, high to sister on hedge fund guy, you know, like in the board so. So he needs someone like me. So I did that and then at some point decided to not decide it. I got this opportunity to join to go back into private equity real estate and to join a private equity real estate firm as the number two guy. So there I was, the CEO CFO. So that was good because I was looking at all the operation and I was managing the company. So being like finance or HR or audit or it was
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:37] That was that was a private equity VC kind of fund were really a private
Daniel: [00:37:41] Equity firm.Yeah, we know much investment money.We were managing a little bit over 200 million dollars with co-investment money and working truly on a real estate project. And so and on top of that of being what I was doing, I was the investment guy because there was just like one analyst at the company. So I was literally the anything but the ceo. So working very, very hard but great experience.How to run a firm,How to do this, that I hadn't done in my private, prior practical experience because we are a practically firm, but also your operator.So, for instance, we were co-developer in on the high end luxury asset project in Soho. So learn a lot about this every every position, you're going to learn something and that's the that's the great thing. And then around twenty seventeen, everything is really well, but I'm thinking, You know what? You reach a point in your life where without being condescending or too modest, you feel that no one can teach you anything anymore, that you have everything you need to strike on your own, that I could work for someone else to and then make good money and like, maybe have something good, but I didn't feel that I could. I was more on the other side, right where I can teach someone people something, but like, I couldn't learn that much from other people.You can always learn. Don't get me wrong,But you reach a level where I say, maybe it's time to strike on my own. And I had a friend who was a friend of mine, who was a hedge fund trader 15 years at Goldman Sachs, in the hedge fund. And we were thinking the same thing and we said, You know what? Let's do it. Let's start our own investment firm. And also. This is the thing with maturity, you learn that that's OK if you're not in like specific box, right? So what I mean by that is 50 years ago when I studied that I came on, my only goal was to work in the pure practically shot with any work in a VC firm. No private credit, no working real estate, no. Like, I didn't want all that stuff. I wanted the pure LBO shop. For me, that was practically and that's it. And anything other than that, I would be miserable.I never I did that a bit, but not like in affirmant when I started my own firm. But I want to do pure power ethically.I wasn't that. I wasn't interested in that.And you know, you want to you've seen different things in your life and then you start thinking, like, what do you want to do? I decided to focus on private credit. And the reason I did that was looking at everything I've done in my life. I was looking at the risk reward ratio and and where risk reward slash brain damage if you look in 3D. And where I wanted to be and look, if you're in the hedge fund world because we thought maybe we can start a hedge fund, know we could be an activist or invest in real estate companies or to leverage what I did. But the hedge fund world, if you make five percent your top quarter and you're very lucky and so forget private equity. Ok, it's good,But to be on top where you can, I mean, you're going to make 15, 20 percent and a lot of work to get there. When you own the like arrested developer, for instance, you can make 30 35 percent a lot of brain damage. You can lose a lot of money. But then we look at pretty bright credit and we saw that, you know, in private credit, I can make 15 percent with much less risk because I'm on first position or sometimes second less brain damage because I don't actually have to do the work, you know, so I'm back with the operator. And it was like, That's what I want to be, right? It's if you make 50 percent, there's nothing to be ashamed of. And and, yeah, private equity firm, they work hard to, you know, we have our vintage was 18 percent OK. But look, the amount of work you had to do to get there when you know, like I let someone else do the work for four, 15 percent. So this is how we decide to do something that again, I would never have thought even five years ago that I would do.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:23] So talk to me about like when you say private credit, specifically how you even source those opportunities, like how you even I know you had a Rolodex at this point. You knew a lot of people in the real estate industry. So when people were looking for a check to fund specific developments like you just said, Hey, we have this shop now, and hey, we have up to whatever it is, 30 million, 50 million dollars to put to work or how did you how did you do it or I have or you served more as like capital introduction where you knew enough people in your investing alongside? How did it how do you even think about setting up a shop like this?
Daniel: [00:42:55] And yeah, so so it's again,It's a lot of luck and fate sometime and to start with, OK, we're two guys. We have Rolodex, we have pedigree. And then my partner was 15 years of Goldman Sachs just saying that it doesn't matter what you what he did, and he was named and the trader. But when people say it's like, it's like, Oh, wow, no. And again, it doesn't matter what you did, but it's Goldman Sachs.Be catchy.But so we we thought. Yeah, if we start like we do something like in real estate where the truth of the matter is. It's great, but there are so many firms out there doing that, so how are we going to differentiate ourselves? So we said we need to find something unique that to start our business and by chance or just, you know, it's sometimes destiny. We came across an industry called EMC, a merchant cash advance and look at. It buys a lot of small companies as a restructuring guy to consider. I did try to call Gene and I wasn't in the shops I was doing investing in small businesses. I had never had I went to business school. I never heard about this industry. I look at the industry and it's an industry where to make it short. It's it's a very niche product. It's a small industry,$20 Billion, but it's small. Wall Street firms, what we do, we buy future revenues. So you're a small business. You need $100000. If you go to your bank. They will give you like a colonoscopy before they give you. They give you a $100000 and you will have to give your kidney and maybe your first bonus guarantee. So forget about that. Maybe you have some credit cards you can max out, but at some point that's it. But there is this product where you say, you guys like us and you say, I say you might get your revenue. Now, this revenue may not occur, right? As far as I know, maybe the guy would go bankrupt tomorrow,But he's willing to send me his future revenue. And if I believe in his business more than his business, I can buy it at a huge discount. And the reason I'm saying this is because I'm taking a risk. So when you think about factoring, which is selling existing receivable. This business is very easy because you just have to underwrite the credit risk of the customer here. There is no I don't know what are the pictures there, but you know, you don't know you, so when you add money to a restaurant, to a dentist or doctor, I don't know what this is actually. He doesn't know. But I think the risk for that we have to be rewarded. And the average transaction, we advance money, so we buy again. It's very important, let alone we bind future revenues. It's a commercial transaction. And on average, we do.Gross return is forty five percent over six months. So if I give you a hundred thousand dollars, you have to give it back hundred forty five thousand over the next six months. If you do just simple math, it's like 90 hundred percent a year. So huge return. Right now, the threat is huge or so. Yeah, and only you can make twenty five, 30 percent the year after or the deeper trade and
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:20] The analogy with COVID and all. Did you were you guys exposure is the turn. The turns fascinating or not?
Daniel: [00:46:27] No. So so obviously we're exposed, but the way we expose it or the business, we advance money so they are closed. They are not in default. When they don't generate revenue, we can't take any money from them, right? We're buying 10 percent of their revenue. But. As soon as they reopen, we take revenue, so when I do a deal where I think that we get paid over six months now, it will be eight to nine months.So we still and the
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:54] Merchants do this to the merchants that do this. It's almost like a payday loan for a company. Exactly. And so like, they need cash. You give it to them with little, with very little,
Daniel: [00:47:05] Very little diligence. We don't do like a SWOT analysis. I don't care about their business plan and sort things. I want the money for the next six months. Are they going to go bankrupt within the next six months or are they a fraud and they will run with my money? That's what I need to know. And you have to do a lot of deals. You have to diversify, right? So since we started, we advance money to more than three thousand two hundred businesses.Wow.So a lot we do five or six deals a day and we do small tickets, right?And we we deploy like something like sixty five million dollars.But the reason I'm saying that is by finding this industry, we saw an industry that or some family offices, high net worth individual institutions they don't know about. When they look at it, they think it's, you know, I think like even the mafia doesn't charge this, right? So it was a loan shark. So where are you guys doing? They realize that we can institutionalize that, and that's what we're doing. So we set up closed end funds and we have from Israel and from auditors and economists had to learn about this industry. I found auditor had to learn about that industry because all the people in that industry. No one does it. The way we do it, they are more like street smart and we brought the institution basics there. And by creating that, we name them, we made a name for ourselves and invest. Also, you start raising money and invest today like what you do. It's something different. High risk guys we want. But it's like I read that once in the Financial Times,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:41] If you're getting that fast back, if the terms are such that you're able to lend. So let's say the company is doing a million dollars in revenue a year on average the last three years, and you're lending them a hundred thousand, you're expecting six months to get paid back one point twenty five. Theoretically, they should be able to fund that if the revenue. I mean, theoretically, if they're pulling for that cash, do you ever look? Are they do they need that cash because of a capital like expenditure?
Daniel: [00:49:05] Yeah, it's always for working capital, right? So, so they. So the the. Put it this way, let's say you're a restaurant like right now you're going to reopen. Ok. Covid is over. You reopening. Ok, you need money to reopen, right? You need to buy raw materials to buy food. You need to hire. Maybe like a company to clean the facility and disinfect. You need to buy some wipes and stuff. So you have for 20 30 thousand of working capital. Now, where are you going to find that money? You don't have that money. You wipe out your workforce for two months. You need that money and you need it like yesterday. So this is where we say, OK, we're going to give you 30000 and you're going to give us back forty five thousand dollars of revenue. And we think it will take you based on what you did in the past six months. Yes, it because then $50000, but the the business, the way they look at it is the return on investment. It's pretty good. Yes, they pay 50k, but they know that they are back in business and they will repay it very quickly because the revenue would come. So they need that money and no one else can provide that, that money. So that's that's what we do. And that's like we really filling a gap in the credit market and investor like it, merchant Typekit like
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:50:27] Paypal does the same thing. They're always offering me loans. They're always trying to get me to take loans.
Daniel: [00:50:32] Exactly. So PayPal is a big player square Amex. They are big players because their cost of acquisition is zero. They already know you.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:50:41] They can see the revenue trends. They're like, Oh, this. Exactly.
Daniel: [00:50:44] So for them, it's easy.So they will try to shove it in your throat and take this money sometimes money that you don't need. Yeah, but it's it's so.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:50:53] But they're charging less from what I remember, I think it was like. From what I remember, it's like you can decide to pay it back between. You know, 30 percent of your revenue, 20 percent or 10 percent of your revenue, something like that back to them. And if you pay into a more aggressive amount back to them that I think the rate comes out to be like six or seven percent or something like that over the lifetime. Yeah.
Daniel: [00:51:16] Yes, these big firm look for them. It's not about making money on the advance, they don't care like it's how much they're going to make Typekit and keep Typekit. It's not even running around on American Express PayPal balance sheet. It's about keeping you as a customer. So for them, it's it's more like protecting them than they are making money. But it's it's retention that
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:40] Yeah, it's you know, I mean, maybe about the billions they have in and kind of in their balances. I mean, theoretically, if they're getting if they turn that from whatever they're getting at the banks or they're holding or their investments, their their money market accounts of one percent, maybe getting that six or seven can move the needle. Could they get help if they get half of it deployed and it's billions of dollars? I don't know. Well, it's a better use of capital when they know there's very low default risk.
Daniel: [00:52:11] So yeah, but that's for sure. And look, and they we know what the difference is, right? We know what to expect we do because they see exactly your bank statement and they know, they know, they know where you start. So so we did that. And when we started our firm, which is that capital firm, we said what we want to do is provide credit, but we want to have different strategies and cash. It's our frustration. But then we will have different strategies with different risk risk, return profile. And that's that's the idea. So then once, after a year and a half, we said, OK, now let's it's to realistic the debt because this is something I know very well and it's not easy, but I can throw these and other ideas and find money. But again, with the idea of doing a little bit risky, right? So not see your loan at six percent, but doing massive prep at 13 14 percent, 15 percent. That's the type of loan we're doing. We crazy with only two weeks that would be at 14 or 15 percent. So this just in preferred as it's like a piece of. It's on paper, it's practically, but it's and it's non-cash.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:53:31] They pick at 15 percent.
Daniel: [00:53:34] No, it's 14 percent current and one percent accrued. The reason why we did it, it's investors. The 14 percent current is for the investor, the one percent equities for us. But the investor in what they want is cash and cash. That's what people like cash and guys. This is what they like. And so that's our second strategy. And now we have I like to work on the third strategy. I just hire an intern from and we start MBA
to,You know, this strategy. I had it in my mind for about a year. Know it has to mature in your head and. And now I think I get it. So I told him, like, listen, you. I don't have the time, you don't have the time. So I want you to. I'm guiding him and do the research and putting together the way I say it is like it's a sovereign country. So I don't even like there will be two phases.The first one is to do a business plan for the managing partner of the firm, where I want you to teach us the idea strategy. Yeah, the idea and I would try to destroy it, and I want you to pitch it to us to make sure that we have a good idea. And because it's something that would be I don't want to talk too much about it right now, but it would be not revolutionary but unique, like the Casamance business, you know, something unique that it's so boring. And then once we have that phase two, it's to put together a pitch book for investors. So like this, once you're done with your summer internship in September, I can go on the road and talk to the investor. But that's what we want to do. How we like different strategies and when you when you go through your career, you know what I learn is first. If you have plans, you know, breaching the trust, right, it's not going to happen.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:55:29] Put your plans in the trash. That's a good lesson.
Daniel: [00:55:32] It's lesson number. I have many lessons learned, but that's just number one. It will never happen. And it's and that's not bad. It's good because what you make are things that you would never think about. And and and, you know, being like again in industries or career that you you wouldn't think so.So that's good. You have to be.But for that, you have to be open minded, right? And if I had say at the beginning, you know, like on a practical real estate, I don't want to do that. I want to work on the pure piece shop or idea or shop. Whereas to be making or maybe unemployed, who knows
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:56:12] At Lehman, probably when it went under or whatever?
Daniel: [00:56:14] Yeah, yeah, for sure. And then Barclays and then, you know, God knows where I would be. So you have to be you. You have to be open minded and and look at every. Everything is an opportunity to meet new people to learn, and it's your reputation is something that's very important and and and it's now we have maintain for the past 15 years and that's good because you create a network and encourage people, you know, when they have a community profile like. Michael, I may have like a thousand people on my network, but these are thousand that I really choose, like every people that invite me without knowing me, I reject. It's like our my network to be really meaningful,Right? And that's that's means something. If I never talk to your guest with you, like, I don't want you to be in my network because it's like it's B.S., it's not the network.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:57:09] I feel I'm in your network. I mean, your network. I feel good.
Daniel: [00:57:15] It's really get it. I think it's yeah, it's important. So over your life, your career, you, you start different.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:57:24] Know I lost you there for a second. Sorry, sorry about that again, I lost you just for a second.
Daniel:00:57:30] It was, it was a call and I said,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:57:34] Yeah, I can see you now,
Daniel: [00:57:35] Ok? And so. So it's it's a different many different people. And that's that's very important because if you. In just in one line of work and one industry, you your network is sort of limited, but life you never know, and you need to expand your network as much as possible, so be open minded to anything that comes towards you. Yeah, I think,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:58:05] You know, it's funny that you say kind of be somewhat choosy on your network. I encourage a lot of the undergrads and everybody to aggressively network with almost anybody in any related industry they can just to learn. So it's a little bit different advice, I think for somebody like yourself who probably came on LinkedIn as a more senior professional. Once you are like mid-career early career, you didn't want to be bothered by all these random people.
Daniel: [00:58:32] Yeah, so you
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:58:33] Were curating a. You were using LinkedIn almost to curate a a higher value network so that the immense each connection meant something to you. And so you can use it that way, which I think has value because then, you know, like every single person that's connected to mean something or you can use it. But as a student, I almost wouldn't. I wouldn't encourage students to do that. I wouldn't say, Hey, I'm only going to talk to the partners or I'm like, You should be talking to everybody, other students.
Daniel: [00:59:01] So don't get me wrong. So, so, so so what I'm saying, you have to network, but what I'm saying is if. Sometimes the student like, say, Hey, I want to invite you, I want to be on your LinkedIn like no network.Send me an e-mail or like, let's talk, let's have a discussion. And then once we have this connection, then we can be on LinkedIn. Then it means something. But if you send just a blank invitation on LinkedIn, at least for people like me, I will reject it. And you lost your chance to connect with me, whereas I would connect. Like one thing, I.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:59:36] What if the connection is specific? What did they say? I saw you did this and specifically this, and I'm very interested in real estate debt and find it, and it's clear they've done the research.
Daniel: [00:59:45] Yeah, but it's almost the same. They always say that, Oh, I see, I see an investor in practically they. They always say that. But but when they make the effort, which is easy, right? My email is on my website. So you see my profile, you go to my website, you see the email. I even have, I think my phone number. So don't do that. But they could call or text or WhatsApp.Yeah, make the effort to and then. I will like I always take this route because it work for me, and it's important. You know, they when I was a stern one of the last person to talk to us was one of these billionaire and very successful and we to alone. And he said, Listen in your life. You're going to go and you're going to have to and you'll be successful with your degree from MBA Stern. But don't forget who brought you to the dance floor. And don't forget that it started with NYU Stern and help your help the community and help the school. So when I have an you stern person that calls me or email me. I always make the time, always right. And I always when we talk, I mean, I. It happened like last Friday,30 minute call with someone that We got introduced by by by someone. And she needed just career advice. She's an improv right now, actually, kind of like, I've never met the person. We had 30 minutes. I gave her like my blunt advice. But that's what it's about. So now we connect it. But that definitely young Anna is they should do.They should Reach out. But do it the right way, not the spam. I don't believe in that, but do it the right way. You find someone that then sent him like a nice email for up if you want me to call. And find this connection right, you could just random. It's difficult for me, like if you if you put the connection that it's former Lehman Brother people or former and what you stand for, my French undergrad that we walk because you have to, you know how they say, you know, what's you up? I'm not going to say on the topic, I'm talking talk, but once you up, you have to send the elevator back down, so you have to always make the time for others. It's very important
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:02:05] For sure, and you never know. I agree. I agree. 100 percent. Anything you want, anything else you want to share with the listeners before we call it, I know I've kept you for almost, I think, over an hour now. Anything else? Yeah, it was fun. Anything else you want to share with the listeners before we can? Any other words of wisdom? I think you've had a lot of great advice.
Daniel: [01:02:23] Yeah. Look, it's it's if you want to work in pretty quick first, you know, banking, it's it's a great thing. What I learned is it wasn't for me,But it's it's a Great industry that you deal with a lot of smart people. You see so many things and you're, you know, you're literally in the news, like if you like to read the paper you try to read, that was for me.I found it to be or being on the buy side and being an investor. That was my colleague where I wanted to take some risk in life. I don't want to be just an agent and I wanted to own my own mistake and and where there is like a huge potential, but there is a huge potential in banking, right? There are bankers that are making millions and millions and much more than any guy.But that was there is no I don't think anymore. There is like a right or wrong answer between investment banking and private equity. That was a mistake. It's based on just two different types of personality. You have to find what suits you and you have to be. You have to try to avoid listening to your friends, right, because if you listen to your friends, it's all practically is the right thing to do. And that's it. Not necessarily. Not necessarily.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:03:50] Especially now the pendulum has swung so far to private equity. It's like you have to go back in private equity. There's actually a lot of opportunities if you stay in banking now because the banks just want to hold on to you so much, you can get promoted fats. You can get massive bonuses. I talked to a guy in his first four years or three or four years out of school. He was making like half a million dollars already. It's like and it's just insane, and it's because he was really good. He stayed longer than usual and just kept getting promoted and massive bonuses.
Daniel: [01:04:18] And that's what I saw with all my friends, thanks to banking. It's it's really like a last man standing game where, you know, at the beginning it's very crowded and you're like, you know, screw that, I'm going to go to private equity. And sometimes you get promoted by, but not by choice, because you couldn't get into private equity. And so when you're in the middle of the pyramid, you pissed off and you still want to go. But the more you wait, the impossible it gets right. It's very difficult to be in the middle of the pyramid. When you are at the top of the pyramid, then it's very easy
from if you head of the group in the investment bank, you can go and become a partner in the Peace Shop, but that's at the top of the pyramid. But if you stay in the pyramid and you are the top,Then life is actually pretty good because you're making pretty decent money. High profile job, are you? You travel a lot. You manage people. It's like a small organization, so not that bad, but you have to. You have to pay your dues, which are not easy because it's like we took seven 10 years of working hard, very, very hard and all nighters and so forth. But it could be actually pretty good. So people shouldn't desperate if they don't get the right job. But if they want to get into private equity, they should leave no stone unturned.Literally, you don't know where it's going to come from. And you have to say to the interviewer that you're looking for a job and talk to as many people and. You know, if it's for you, it's if we if we have an awesome.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:05:48] Thank you so much for taking the time. Really appreciate your work. And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis.And till next time.
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