WSO Podcast | E140: VP in Corporate Development with IB Healthcare Chops from Jefferies + E&Y
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In this episode, we learn how Joe used an extra year of school to get a masters in accounting in order to get another shot at recruiting and how he was able to land a relevant position to IB in Capital Markets Advisory at a Big 4 right out of school. Listen to hear how he was then able to make a successful transition to the healthcare group at Jefferies where he stayed for 2 years, what he learned in his short 7-month stint after lateraling to Rothschild's restructuring group and eventually, how he ended up working in corporate development making well into mid-6-figures in his early 30s. During this chat, Joe kept harping on one thing that helped him pave his own path, and I don't think it will surprise any of you...
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WSO Podcast (Episode 140) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me! As I talked to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into
different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, we learn how Joe use an extra year of school to get a master's in accounting in order to get another shot at recruiting, and how he was able to land a relevant position to invest in banking and capital markets advisory at a big four right out of school. Listen to hear how he was then able to make a successful transition to the health care group at Jefferies, where he stayed for two years. What he learned in his short seven month stint after lateral into Rothschild's restructuring group and eventually how he ended up working in corporate development, making well into mid six figures in his early thirties. During this chat, Joe kept harping on one thing that helped him pave his own path, and I don't think it will surprise any of you enjoy. All right, Joe, welcome to the Wall Street Oasis podcast.
Joe: [00:01:18] Thanks, Patrick. Thank you for having me.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:20] So be awesome if you could just give the listeners a short summary of your bio.
Joe: [00:01:25] Sure. So let's go it in reverse order here. Currently, I'm working as device as a vice president in corporate development at a woman's health team sponsor back by Aries. Um, prior to joining Unified, I spent about five years, almost six years in investment banking at various firms, which include Jefferies, Rothschild and
Joe: [00:01:52] E.y Capital Partners. I actually started my career at TWC and their capital market in a capital markets group that had just started. That has since dissolved, but that's basically how I started in the in the finance world before I moved on to Jefferies. Cool. And then so
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:06] When you were an undergrad, was finance always on the radar? When did you kind of think, Oh, I'm going to go go this finance route and was invest in banking even on the radar then? Or did you find out about it kind of later in the game or what?
Joe: [00:02:19] Yeah. Actually, corporate restructuring was kind of the goal at first I had an uncle who was a pioneer in corporate
Joe: [00:02:27] Restructuring and worked on a lot of in-court bankruptcies, and he's kind of a mentor to me, Villanova as well. So that's something I was interested in doing when I was younger, when I got to building up the investment bank. It was a little bit more of a of a sexier job, a little bit less gloomy than restructuring. So that was something that was heavily recruited on campus. So it just kind of piqued my interest and that was kind of the route changer there.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:53] Do you remember specifically like, did you have an internship, sophomore or junior year that kind of shaped that decision? Or did you did you basically kind of always think, OK, I'm going to go into like capital markets specifically? Or what was the thought process of like where you applied and the hit rate or the lack of hit rate? Because I know when I applied back at Williams, I applied to like 20 20 on campus, you know, resume drops. I probably got like 10 first rounds, three three final rounds and one offer. Actually, I rothchild restructuring. So like, what was it like for you and how did that kind of? Yeah.
Joe: [00:03:29] So when I was in college, I was actually in the post the year of the big financial crisis. So we went from having a lot of banks on campus to basically zero. So I kind of went it pretty unorthodox route. Just to kind of work, I worked at actually AIG for two years as a as an underwriter for an internship. I've got a full time offer there. It wasn't really satisfied with that. So I actually stayed on to Villanova for an extra year to do my master's in accountancy, which then opened up a lot more doors for me because then at that point, the market had turned around a bit and there was a lot of a lot more kind of targeted recruiting to some of our masters in accounting and master's in finance programs. And I just wound up falling into one at TWC. I was doing a kind of an internship there, which is part of the master's in accounting program, and they happened to be starting a new group within their capital markets team, which is their investment bank. They started a new group that they had recruited some folks from various bulge bracket banks to basically try to kick off this capital market advisory practice, which I interned with and wound up liking it. So they hired me right out of the program.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:45] Well, do you do you recommend that if we go through like a global pandemic or a global financial crisis, do you recommend taking an extra year and getting the master's for a lot of kids, like right now thinking about, Hey, should I go get a masters?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:57] Do you think that's a good idea?
Joe: [00:04:58] I absolutely do. I actually have another friend that did the same thing. He didn't get the looks he wanted right out of school for investment banking, and he ended up taking an extra year and did a second degree and wound up planning an internship just to be a networking and just having a little bit more time and focusing on what he wants to do with Bank of America and their health care group, which is obviously a very strong group.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:20] So, yeah, and did you so when you were like actually thinking about this this additional year And it was a master's correct in accounting when you were thinking of that? What was the thought like? When did you finally make that decision? It was like junior year leading to senior and you didn't have the right internship that you wanted or what? What was like that final moment? You're like, Okay, I'm just going to do an extra year.
Joe: [00:05:42] Yeah, I think, you know, nowadays it's a little bit more structured where folks and kids coming into school realize they need to have a sophomore and junior internship at a certain bank. That's the highest rate for getting a for having that turned
Joe: [00:05:55] Into a full time job. That wasn't really a structured, but I was in school with like internships weren't still weren't necessary. We're talking 10, 15 years ago now. But, you know, obviously they were still prominent
Joe: [00:06:07] And you could still do an internship somewhere else and get another job. So it wasn't as truckers is today. Yeah, I would say probably my senior year when I started interviewing for banks, a lot of the deterrence and eggs that I would get, where basically I didn't have any internship
Joe: [00:06:23] Experience that directly related to investment banking. So I was kind of at a disadvantage. Yeah. So I just kind of took it upon myself to figure out what it is that I need to do. And really the key was modeling experience. I had some of it. It was more educational than obviously in practice. And one of the things that I thought would make more sense to get a kind of a deeper knowledge base in would be the statements and how they flow together, which is why I chose accounting, even though I have an undergrad in finance and accounting. So I just chose accounting over finances because that was just more. I thought it made more sense for me, and that's where I felt like I was weaker. That's really the only rationale I chose accounting over a master's in finance.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:06] So like, you're coming in the senior year, you're you weren't getting the you're getting you weren't getting the jobs you wanted or the offers you wanted. So you're like, I'm just going to re-up, do another year and have another crack at like networking. And so. So how did you approach that networking? Were you at this point? It was twenty twelve ish? Probably. Were you like just attacking LinkedIn or was it not big enough? Then how were you? How were you just like doing well? Yeah, I
Joe: [00:07:29] The first place I went to was like friends, family and then just basically
went to the database that Villanova had at the career center. And just. Probably sent two hundred and fifty emails a week to various folks and, you know, got like a two percent hit rate of people answering, and it was mostly people saying, thanks for reaching out, but I can't help you. But you know, it's a lot of it takes a lot of. Of persistence, for sure. But I think once you have your story right, once you're focused on what it is that you want to do, it's a lot easier to narrow down who you should be networking with. What was your story?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:09] What was your pitch kind of coming into that? You're like, Oh, I'm getting too major, I'm getting a master's in accounting. I'm strong here and I'm strong. I know what I want to do now, blah blah blah. Or what was your pitch?
Joe: [00:08:18] Yeah, it was just that's basically it. It was just like, Hey, I'm really interested in doing this. I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do going through school, but like after a few internships and obviously like a couple of hurdles that we had to jump over because of the situation with the market, the job market's opened up now. I just wanted to see what was available. If you were interested in chatting with me and then every once in a while, I'd get a couple,
You know, first round of interviews. And, you know, I kind of got I got my ass
Joe: [00:08:44] Kicked on a couple of the first ones, and I learned I learned quickly that, you know, it's all about reps, right? You kind of get embarrassed your first couple of times to do it and then you get you realize like how stunning for these
Joe: [00:08:54] Interviews are, like studying for a midterm or a final right, you really have to be prepared. So I made sure I was prepared anytime I had the opportunity.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:01] But one thing I learned I bombed. I bombed many, many Ibe interview. I didn't know.
Joe: [00:09:09] One piece of advice, for sure, is that it's a lot easier to get a job, especially an entry level job, when you're still in school. So that's why I encourage
Joe: [00:09:19] Kids. If they're not ready to, they're not really sure what they're doing. They've kind of figured it out a little too late. It doesn't hurt to do get an extra degree or stay an extra year if you can feasibly afford it, because it just opens up a lot more doors and you can kind of spend that year focusing on not only another degree, but focusing on networking. And you don't have your student loans coming in and all that other nonsense and all that I know is that you need to deal with.
Joe: [00:09:43] So it's just it's, you know, it's just a way to kind of keep yourself in the hunt.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:50] Yeah, for sure. So tell me a little bit about that that year. So you said you're sending about 200 250 emails a week to mostly alums or in other people, you're getting about a two percent response rate. It sounds about right, and a lot of them are like, No, sorry, but did you did that? Did those networking efforts actually did that lead to the actual offer at pWt? Or did what was what was the actual breakthrough? Was it through friends or family? What was it?
Joe: [00:10:16] No, it actually did. I had reached out to one of the guys who was very high up at ABC, and he was kind of leading the effort to start this Capital Markets Advisory Group, which was part of the corporate finance team. He kind of oversaw that group, but he worked in the
Joe: [00:10:32] He worked in the LLP. So it was interesting and we just we kind of hit it off. He was a very big advocate. He was very high up in BWC and he kind of was the decision maker there. So I kind of just jumped over a couple of hurdles there and was kind of put at the front of the line and was introduced to the guys who'd be running that, that group there. And, you know, it just wound up working out pretty well.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:59] Interesting. So you were there for about a year? Tell me a little bit about kind of how you started thinking about, OK, I'm in this capital markets advisory business at a big four. Tell me about how you thought about investment banking at like a boutique
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:13] And why, why you jumped or when you started kind of prepping for that jump.
Joe: [00:11:19] Yeah, I mean, I can credit a lot of it to the guys that I worked for. They were pretty good mentors. They had all worked at a large bulge bracket, banks or kind of elite boutiques. So when we spent a lot of time working together, they kind of knew that I was hungry and I was willing to work hard. And, you know, they gave me opportunities to go and do modelling training via a third party, which wasn't available for at TWC. And, you know, some kind of outside forces were causing the group to shake up a little bit. That was completely out of my control. There was a lot of head butting with the guys that were hired in the group and the guys and the legacy guys TWC. So as the writing was on the wall there, some of those guys were leaving. They were like, they were nice enough to pull me aside and say, Hey, you know, this isn't working out for us. We're going to leave. So we want to make a really good analyst and a more traditional investment bank and program, and we think you benefit from that. So they kind of gave me free rein to use their leverage, their networks and leverage my own and leverage what I've learned over the couple of years. Over the couple of months in Europe there, which you don't realize how much you learn when you put your head down for a year and you pick it back up and you earn interviewing stuff, it just starts pouring out of your mouth. You know what you're paying? And yeah, when I actually got a few offers and Jefferies Healthcare, which is a very strong group, and it was through that networking that I did actually prior to taking the job at TWC that I stayed in touch with one of the guys at Villanova that happened to know my uncle. And he actually didn't have a job for me, but he ran into a guy on the bet. He goes, he goes down to the Jersey Shore in the summer, and he was going to be next to this kid on the beach. And he worked at Jeffries and they hit it off and he told them about me. So it was really cool how everything came together. So you never know, even though, you know, if you network with somebody and they may or may not have something for you. But if you make a good impression and you kind of just genuinely you're a genuine person and you seem like a you'd be a hard worker, you don't know what kind of what kind of network they might have and they might not be able to leverage for you. So it actually worked out well, and that guy still talks to you every six months, you know, we stay in touch. It's just kind of a It's a two sided relationship. When his when his son needed some help and he wanted to get an investment banking, he didn't really have the contacts like I did anymore, and I was able to help him out. So it's just, you know, it's a give and take. It's all about properly networking, and I just kind of got very good at it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:50] So nice. Yeah. So tell me about like where you think you kind of were struggling the most when you first started networking? And then kind of what? What made you more comfortable, obviously. Like, you get better at interviews, you get better the technical. It's like you said, after a year working, it's much easier because things just start. You start talking about deals you're on and it's just easier. But what like, yeah, how could kids do before they had that deal experience before they have any of the full time musicians? What could they do to like, get more comfortable,
just reps? Or is there anything else?
Joe: [00:14:18] Yeah, I mean, roughs is obviously the best way to do that, I mean, your first interviews are always going to be like educational. I would say take a step back and don't memorize the things that you're basically trying to retain. It's actually learning because what happens is if they if you start regurgitating things that you know, how do you get? Walk me through how you get to walk me through evaluation. All of that, if they realize that you're just regurgitating, they're going to start pulling different pieces. And it's like if one thing moves, what moves. So it's really Understanding what pieces move. Um, but I think honestly, nothing more than reps, I mean, you're going to get some pretty obscure questions and things you're not going to know and it's OK not to know. One thing I learned is just don't just just spit out an answer. It's just, you know, be confident instead that you may not, you may not know, and they'll get back to them or whatever it is. Same thing in real life and that applies. You don't want to say something that's wrong and rather to say something about it. Just admit that you don't know and be genuine. It seems to go a lot longer than just making up an answer and just getting all flustered. But yeah, I think unfortunately, it's is just even if it's a job you may not want or may not be your first job as many reps as you can, you can get as many interviews and you can get you're going to learn a lot from every interview. Just like life, you're going to make mistakes and you're going to learn from them. That's, you know, it took me probably 10 15 interviews until I was, like, comfortable with. And of course, like a year of work experience, which I kind of pick up on myself, just spin it the way I wanted to sound it. And it worked.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:48] So how did you spend like a capital markets advisory role to be more attractive to banks? For those looking to make a similar transition, like to a health care to like an actual product or an industry group rather?
Joe: [00:15:59] I focused on a lot of the training that I did. You know, that was was educational, but I took that modeling training course that I focused on that and there was a lot of modeling and practice. It was a little bit more esoteric than just like a traditional DCF or something like that. So I focused on the deals that I worked on and just made sure that what I did, what I had on my resume was truthful to what I did for a lot of entry level jobs. As long as you kind of seem like your you have some, some some sort of business acumen and some sort of like, you know, finance knowledge that could be leveraged into training, especially for the bigger banks where they have formal training programs. Right. What you don't want to do is say, you build DCFS all day long
And then they walk you through, have you walk through DCF and you're just kind of fall flat on your face because they're going to know you're lying? So I was just kind of truthful in what I did, but like focus really on the finance portion of what I did, the modeling, modeling portion, the presentation, building portion and kind of just the other noise that was more like accounting heavy. I just threw that to the side.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:06] So you kind of made your resume look a little more finance savvy than accounting you didn't like, even though you had the master's in accounting, you were like flashing it at the top of the page or anything, right? Yeah. Ok, so you make it over to Jeffrey's tell me a little bit about your two years there. That's a that's a crazy run for an analyst. The two year program is known as like a three or four years of work experience, right? So tell me what that was like just going through that and that transition from a big four to a, you know, boutique. Yeah, I mean, I think the the.
Joe: [00:17:40] The time I spent at pWt, given that it was on the analyst, it kind of taught me to be a little bit more resourceful and you know, it was I was working decent hours, maybe 65 to 70 hours, so it was just prepared me to take that next step of the extra 20 or 30 hours or so. That was the good kind of bridge, I guess, into it, into that role.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:01] But you didn't think that was like brutal, like having a life after college where you're in the city working 60 70 hours and then having to go up to eighty five, 95. I mean, to me, it's almost like you tasted a little bit of freedom and like fun and then you're like thrown into it. I don't know.
Joe: [00:18:18] To me, I think that's what made it a little bit more palatable was that I mean, the group was one hundred and five people or something like that in health care alone, but like 30 of them were my peers. So we were like, kind of all in it together. And you made a lot of good friends. You spent a lot of time together. And of course, like nobody wants to be printing books at four a.m. and shipping them to your empty at five and like getting them to getting them on the plane five minutes before like you supposed to take off. But you know, it's just it's
Joe: [00:18:45] Been described as like the best time you never want to do again, right? So you build these like lifelong relationships and you build like a network, a lot of folks. But you learn so much when you're doing it and it is miserable and there's no doubting that. But you know, when you're working 90 plus hours a week with people that you like
and your peers and everyone's kind of in the same situation, it becomes a little bit more palatable. I think so.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:08] Yeah. And so then tell me a little bit about kind of
the thought process as you pursue there. I'm sure I'm sure you've got some great deal experience, but just tell me about like how you started thinking about your next step and what is it like year after you were done with the first 12 months there you were thinking, are you thinking private equity or are you thinking corp dev? Or what were you another bank? Obviously, we know you ended up at another bank, but tell me about the thought process there.
Joe: [00:19:30] Yeah, a little over probably a year or close to a year and a half in, you know, everyone started looking into different private equity gigs, and that's just, you know, you know, that becomes kind of a tough process in itself if you're working so much and you're trying to interview and a lot of the interview is predicated on because there's only so much experience. So these. Just to get your foot in the door over there. It's a lot of it's predicated on what school you went to when your GPA. So know some people are getting more looks and others, even though they may not be as experienced. So it's kind of a it's a game you have to play. And I was just so busy I was doing some, some interviewing for people to
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:09] Feel like you're on it. Do you feel like your undergrad GPA held you back if you had? I don't know what you're what your undergrad GPA was, but you feel
Joe: [00:20:15] Like GPA was fine. I would say Villanova was just not a target school. I mean, I think now it's a little bit more regarded in. There's a lot more banks are recruiting on campus now, but you know, at Jeffries, let's say, you know, Villanova was like the bottom of the bottom of the top of the schools. So we were at, we were at the bottom rung. So you basically had once we had the interview, we had a separate ourselves. And that's, you know, it's just kind of how life goes. The Harvard kids are going to get the first interviews and then, you know, the Vanderbilt kids and the kids and then the Villanova kids are lagging behind.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:49] But did you try to actively recruit for private equity in that second year where you just kind of just taking any
Joe: [00:20:56] Guess? And though I wasn't completely sold on it, one thing I did want to do was, you know, when our group was there was a lot of turnover going on at Jeffries and it made the, you know, there was a lot of a lot of transparency from the senior guys. So a lot of the guys were either leaving to go to a different bank or going to private equity. So I just saw it as kind of the inflection point for me to, you know, I always wanted to try restructuring roths child that was actively recruiting me and the
restructured group. I have a very strong restructuring practice.
Joe: [00:21:23] They sold me on a bill of goods that didn't come to fruition, but that's neither here nor there. So it was just, you know, I just thought a lot of the guys I was working with at Jefferies that I liked, it seemed like they were leaving or had left. And I really want to focus on M&A. I started getting more like equity, follow on type deals that I didn't want to do, so it wasn't really what I was. It was kind of what I did. The work I was doing at Jefferies was really shifting and I was working with different people and it just wasn't as comfortable there anymore. I just saw an opportunity to go elsewhere and try something different. Thinking the grass would be greener, but it wasn't.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:03] Well, I know I worked at the I worked in the restructuring group, but obviously a lot, lot longer time ago with the gray. The gray beard shows it. But 02 04, I know, is a really hard working group back then, I assume. Same kind of some of the guys were still there that we both work. I think we had compared notes before we first chatted, but tell me a little bit about that. So like, the grass is greener thinking you thought the lifestyle would be better, you thought the deals or you thought restructuring would be interesting because it was just a different like you'd get like the. Don't know more knowledge on like different debt instruments like what do you think of like, Oh, I'm going to go restructure?
Joe: [00:22:40] Yeah, I think the real the real focus was on the capital structure. I wanted to get a more. Kind of a detailed experience and in-depth experience on the capital structure itself and different debt instruments and just learn something different. I mean, I was kind of sold on the fact that they were starting a health care group and they were going to promote me and all these other things that didn't come to come to fruition. You know, when you when you kind of got there, you realize that seven other kids just started on the same day as they just couldn't stop the bleeding because kids weren't lasting more than six to eight months. So it was just kind of a bunch of lateral hires that they were just trying to stop the bleeding because there was a lot of work and there wasn't a lot of people that that wanted to stay. And, you know,
Joe: [00:23:21] Hedge funds and distressed funds were actively recruiting kids from outside six months out of their program, so it was easy to get out.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:29] So kids that were kids that were coming in for a two year program were getting taken away within six months, you're saying, or eight
Joe: [00:23:35] Months, six months? Yeah, no. I don't think anyone I know lasted more than a year
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:40] Back when I was there, it was 12 of us, I think, and I think there were three of us at the end of the two years, three or four.
Joe: [00:23:46] Yeah, yeah, I don't think anyone was there for the whole two year program. It was all lateral hires by the time, like my class got him. Wow.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:57] Well, not any, not an easy group, they do a lot of they do a lot of revenue. They do a lot of deals, so it's not an easy group. So tell me about like as you started realizing because like you must have realized within a couple of months, you're out of there within six seven months. Mr. Realized within a couple of
Months like this isn't this isn't going to
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:12] Work. Was it mostly like first day? You're like, Oh,
Oh shit, like everyone's lateral here? Like, did that? Did that actually trigger in your head like day one? Or did you realize later on like, wait, nobody's actually hear from the two year program? What kind of was like that?
Joe: [00:24:26] I gave it a couple of months. I mean, I got put on some pretty tough deal teams and I was, you know, it was it was more the culture like spending a couple of months. You spent a couple of weeks somewhere. You kind of get an idea of what the culture is like. And it just wasn't didn't really jive with my personality. Jeffries was like a much more, you know, for lack of a better term frat environment with a lot more athletes and a lot more, a lot more fun. It was less like white shoe or Australia was much more white shoes, like much more of a backstabbing culture in which I wasn't used to at. So, you know, for my, my only experience was really seeing Jeffries. And from my understanding, Jeffrey's health care is one of the toughest groups to work for on the street, so I didn't think I would join one of the very few that were worse. Oh, that's
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:10] Hilarious. Yeah, I just say, like you wasted three years at like two of the toughest places. Like, what are you trying to like? Are you trying to? Are you trying to, like, burn out early? Like, what was the deal? So, OK, so you're a couple, you're a couple of months in and you're thinking like, OK, screw the restructuring
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:29] Thing. This is just crazy. Like, I can't. I'm not sure.
Joe: [00:25:32] It was a combination of the people in the work. I think the work was a little bit gloomy for me. It was it was very obviously driven by the legal system and the bankruptcy and bankruptcy courts and all this and I just wasn't interested in that. It was a lot more reading than it was actual. Like modeling just really wasn't what made me tick. And again, you're dealing with people that are just upset all the time with their businesses going under. And yeah, and I was working on a variety of different industries, so I wasn't really specializing in something, and I just kind of missed. Again, another inflection point for me, it's like I liked health care. I liked working with more middle market, small and middle, lower middle market companies, which at Rothschild, we weren't working on much larger deals. And, you know, I just did some networking again and thought, you know what, I what I ultimately want to do is. Um, get back into health care, whether I go to the private equity route or I go to Corp
Dev route, I don't know, but it gets some more, some more experience in health care. Jefferies is more of a broader health care. I've worked on some large deals as you became a more revered analyst. They go on bigger deals, which I actually didn't like when I first started. They put you on the smallest deal teams and the smaller deals. I actually like that better working with the kind of founder owned, more entrepreneurial companies. But I wanted to find a bank, maybe a boutique bank, that focus more on that lower middle market space because there was a lot more deal
flow, a lot more underserved. You're getting more in the weeds. You're not just working for a business development team and you're really working with the folks that built a practice. You're helping them build a practice. Yeah. So after doing some networking with folks that I worked with Jefferies and the network that I've built thus far, there was a guy who basically was starting this group at E Y and their health care group. He used to work with one of one of my old colleagues at Jefferies that I think at Citigroup, and they were looking for kind of associate senior associate to come on board and basically train. They had some really good analysts there that came really through the ranks, and they were just really smart, more sharp guys. But they just didn't have that formal training and they were a little bit raw, a little bit green as far as like building the proper presentations and right and proper etiquette and all that. So really, that was that was the mandate was to come in, really focus on whipping the kids into shape and having them understand like things, you know, as far as building a model and presentation properly and the right attention to detail all the way to like proper folder structure. So that was really that was really it. And in doing so, part of being on that small team also allowed me to run deals by myself as I got a little bit more experience. And for once that actually all of what was promised to me came to fruition. So I got, you know, I got a title bump, I got a little bit more experience. I got it was a little more entrepreneurial because I was helping build a group and then I was kind of running meetings by myself, management meetings, working, you know, sitting on site at some of my clients I was working with helping them build their business, making it more efficient, basically putting a bow on it so we could sell it to a sponsor. Yeah, which was much, much more different than
I was doing before. And I really I really enjoyed that experience which what I realized when I started selling these founder Owen. And it was a lot of it was physician services. I was selling these large physician practices to the initial sponsor. I realize these guys were making a ton of money. I was like, Well, this is pretty interesting. I think this is actually a little more interesting to me than just going to be an investor at a private equity fund. I'm really getting into the weeds of building a business from scratch. Mm hmm. And that was really the thought process there when wanting to move over to kind of a sponsor backed. A. You know, corporate development role because you're doing it's like killing two birds with one stone, it has a little bit of that private equity element in there, but you're working on the operational side, so you're getting kind of two different experiences. Did you feel like it's a lot more fast paced? And there's, you know, the obviously the equity component that every couple of years you're going to get an equity payout and all that. So it's a little more interesting to me. That's kind of it took me a little while to get there, but that's when I ultimately figured out that's what I wanted to do. Cool. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:45] Let's talk about that in a little bit, but tell me a little bit about that. The pit stop at Rothschild to e.y. Like, do you feel like that hurt you that little pit stop? Or do you feel like when you started talking to people and you were trying to jump so fast because I know people will find themselves in that position where like they jump and then they're like, Oh, that was a mistake. I think it goes back to just, you know, you have to be
Joe: [00:30:06] Open and honest and say, Hey, you know, I screwed up. This is what I
did and I was kind of a bill of goods here and it just didn't come to fruition. And you know, and then you use that. What I say is like, Hey, just what, it was it was really it was a reminder that I like health care and it was that it kind of drove me to realize what it is that I actually enjoyed, right? And some people will basically, you know, tell me to go
pound salt, and some people just be open to the idea. But you know, I think a lot of once you get the right experience, it's all about networking. I think networking is the biggest driver and biggest door opener of anything that I've ever done. It's just like I've never had any issues with. People say, Well, why would you go to these brand name bank to another one? And I honestly tell people, so I've got the experience. I got a DUI was a hundred times better than anything I had in the past because with real life experience, I wouldn't have got it a large bank for many, many, many years.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:02] Yeah, yeah. You're running, you're running deals like and you're only really only had like two and a half years of
Joe: [00:31:08] Right. And it was just like I was given as much slack as I was capable of, as opposed to just kind of being a cog in the wheel and kind of being have a structured set of skills that you're allowed to do. And it was, you know, it wound up propelling my career pretty, pretty forward, pretty, pretty quickly. And I'm in a really good position where I am now. Or, you know, I'm by far the youngest person on the management team where I am today, and I'm constantly getting calls every day for other opportunities. I would say probably three or four a week, so everything wound up working out pretty well. It's just. What I what I can sensibly do is network and networking and networking and networking. That's all I do, even when I'm not looking for a job which is always meeting people that always continuously learning something new.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:53] So I want to put I want to push on that a little bit. So like specifically the jump. So you were able to kind of overcome that little pit stop or we'll call it a speed bump and you got into UI and you're doing really good work. What was that process of like just sticking around? Why then jump onto the like a corp dev? Why not stick around, build that group more? Get up? Did you feel like you were capped more and you let you? You saw that the you said something that you saw people were making a lot of money. You meant the physicians were making a lot of money or the private equity firms that were rolling these up or making a lot of money.
Joe: [00:32:23] It was a combination of both and there was like there was no shortage of deals in that space. So basically what I got
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:31] A lot of runway. There was a ton of runway for that you meant.
Joe: [00:32:34] Yeah, exactly. And it just so happened that my the my managing director and partner, they were getting bought out by a big consulting firm. At that time. They had gone to a consulting firm and I was one year away from getting promoted to vice president. So I did some kind of soul searching and talking and talking to some other folks and saying, like, I've heard, you know, mixed reviews about if you once you go to the vice president level of banking, you're kind of starting to pigeonhole yourself as an advisor. It's harder to get out. My boss has told me the same thing. And they were honestly very supportive and they actually pushed me that way. They said, honestly, like, you're too smart to be a banker for your life. Like, go, go work on the operating side. And they were like, you know, the landscape of investment banking has changed over the years, so I can go back in time like I would do that too. They said, At my level,
It's really hard to do. I think a pretty significant pay cut. You're, you know, you're at the perfect age to do that. So there was a lot of support to do that internally. And I've gotten a lot of the same feedback when I'm starting to reach out to mentors and other folks and my network itself in asking that same question. So it seemed like the right move.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:44] Cool. Can we talk about pay for a second, like just in terms of ranges, you know, to give us specifics, but like about the pay cuts or what you took along the way? So obviously Typekit to Jefferies, I assume, was a big pay bump because you probably had a much bigger bonus initially coming out. So that was what like 70 based VC around there, 60 70. And then it jumped to like 80 ish at Jefferies.
Joe: [00:34:04] Yeah, I think the pay structure just went up. So I came in at 80, 85, 90, 95 was like, I came in as a second year,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:15] Ok, and then bonus was pretty good for you those a couple of years, like around 50 to 70 percent or
Joe: [00:34:20] 80. I think it was higher than I think my first bonus was it was pro-rated because I didn't have a full year, the first one end, but it was pro-rated at seventy five Thousand whatever. So yeah, almost a hundred bonus. That's probably pretty
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:33] Close. Pretty good for kind of your second year analyst. Ok, and then when you jump to Rochel, you obviously didn't get a full bonus, right? Or you didn't get any bonus. So you're kind of like, um, did you get a bump in base? Like, Were you a senior? Were you considered third tier?
Joe: [00:34:47] Yeah, I got a bump in base and I was supposed to get a bump, but joined right before the A.C. returned, so I was supposed to get bumped up to basically do like a half of a 30 year and then jump to associate, which didn't happen. And then the bonuses they promised me was like half of half of what they promised me. So I wasn't thrilled about that. But OK. And then the best story? Exactly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:15] Couple said the jump to E! And why? Tell me a little bit about that. I assume that's a pay cut. Right? Well, I mean, maybe not because Rothschild was paying you wasn't paying up. But like from Jeffries, especially as the second year associate,
Joe: [00:35:27] So their scale was a little bit lower. But I jumped to I think my first year was one twenty five. Mm hmm. Um, my first year bonus was a hundred grand, so it wasn't. Oh yeah, it was, I mean, pretty good for. We did some pretty good deal work and I worked out a pretty good deal with them just because we were so lean. And you know, a lot of what I could bring to them was pretty valuable and they just didn't have the time to do it. So, you know, I got treated pretty well there. That's awesome. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:55] And then tell me a little bit. And so the thought process that you see your networking, they were encouraged. They were really encouraging to do the corp debt thing. Tell me a little bit about the process of like, OK, first off, did you have o take a big pay cut when you jumped? This is Ron pay. Can you answer that first before? Yeah. So I I
Joe: [00:36:13] Negotiated a pretty good salary. So I I started here at like 175, so it wasn't a pay cut from a salary standpoint, just the bonus structure is obviously much lower. Yeah. my first year, I think the bonus is supposed to be 20 percent, but I kind of I think I got like talking like 35 percent or something like that just because I did good work
and it was pretty clear that they got the first deal. So I got promoted within nine months
Or so. And then my salary and my salary bumped up pretty significantly. So I'm a completely different structure.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:50] And then, yeah, and then specifically for that, so tell me about like why you wanted to. Were you only specifically focused on going to Corp Dev at private equity backed companies? And then how did you find this opportunity? I mean, like now, were you harping on networking? I agree. But just tell me, like how you even came across this and how you knew like this was a good spot because you had just made you had already made a step before where you promised things. How did you get more comfortable
Joe: [00:37:15] That this wasn't going to happen again? You know, honestly, I was just it's just really feeling the people out. You have to just kind of trust the person that is making these promises to. You obviously get anything you can do in writing. It's a lot easier to do that when it's in writing. Well, yeah, I mean, I think what I've learned is over the years, it's not just going for the job you think you will, and it's like you have to really focus on the people that you'll be working with to decide whether you're going to be happy or not. And I just knew that a lot of these places that I was looking at were really rewarding folks on merit as opposed to time being there. So it was just a lot easier for me to jump forward if I did a good job. And that's. You know, kind of how it panned out for me. So I mean, I've been here for two years now, I'm about to get my second promotion. We just signed a deal for our, you know, I got equity. Am I after my first promotion and the deal that we just signed with a new capital partner? I'm getting my part for that, too.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:16] So you explain like how that works because I think that's a that's I'm super curious because I have no clue. I never worked for I worked in private equity, but I never worked for private equity owned business. So I don't know how the other side people working within there and doing running the M&A within their how, how that works. I know if you obviously if the PE firm sells. It sells you guys right, sells the whole piece. You guys get a payout, right? Obviously, because there's big.
Joe: [00:38:42] Yeah, yeah. So basically how it works is if you get hired a certain level of and that one was one of the one of the things that was attracted to working for private
equity backed health care company or any company is that if you do get equity, you know that there's an inevitable exit and part of that exit, there's generally some sort of tagalong right that you have some sort of change of control that comes with that.
Joe: [00:39:06] So every couple of years, you know you're working for, obviously you're growing. It's a growing company. So it's going to be a very deal flow heavy job, which is obviously good for getting more reps and more experience, but also every couple of years as opposed to going to a like a large corp dev. Your equity is actually best into cash as opposed to like some like arbitrary vesting period and some like strike price. That may never happen. And you're so it's just it was it was more realizing
Joe: [00:39:35] Dollars. And then not only that is that if you have.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:40] But there are just options specifically that are vesting and the price because you're raising, you're raising new capital, new rounds at certain prices, that's basically locked in. Yeah, I suppose so.
Joe: [00:39:52] Essentially, the equity is valued at whatever, whatever they recently did an equity value evaluation. Mine was valued at like five hundred thousand is my hurdle rate. So anything over that I was in the money and we sold for, you know, three x bets.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:08] So then some of those to your site. So it's of course like but. There is, yeah, I mean, it depends on the on this on the structure,
Joe: [00:40:20] But a pretty like kind of vanilla structure is if the you know, if private equity sponsor a who currently owns the practice sell 70 percent, you can sell there's a change of control, right, that you could sell up to the amount that they sold. So the tagalong raise up to 70 percent. How it's structured, that's like probably the most simple one. Sometimes you get like incentive units based on performance and there's different hurdles based and the like. But for the most part, that's basically that's literally I've just I got a new equity package today, and that's exactly how it was structured, which it's incentivized by the hurdles of the MLSE. And then there's like there's a time based portion in every kind of half a turn on like I get an extra percentage. So it's just incentivized for us to work here.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:07] Like, Go, go, go. They want you to just go close deals. No pressure. No pressure. So yeah, your day to day tell me a little bit about that and we'll wrap it up. Maybe some of the final words of wisdom like day to day or anything. Yeah, my dad. How is it different?
Joe: [00:41:22] Yeah, I have a really good report. My CEO, I currently don't. I directly report to the chief development officer, but I kind of. Just given the nature of what my skills had brought to the company, but what I've learned over the years is all that work that I kind of put in over in investment banking. You build a skill set that you may think a lot of people have because you are always around your peers and they all everyone has the same skillset. But when you bring it to the real world or to the corporate world, very few people Have that skill set. So it may be kind of invaluable here where I did other things outside of just traditional M&A. And when you work for these kind of these growth companies that are sponsored by their everyone, They're generally pretty lean.
So if you can, you can wear A lot more hats if you're Capable, if you kind of get in
With the right people. So I do I do a lot of strategy stuff, but there are a lot of ad hoc stuff for My CEO Actually transitioning to a more strategy role after this. So that's cool. My day to day really was really focused on obviously finding new stakes in the ground in new states. So looking at larger practices in new states, so we can basically have a presence in the new state and we pay a higher multiple for those, then we basically look at smaller Practices and roll them up and basically drag down the multiple. But my day to day is really focused on obviously bringing in platform deals, which are our large deals and then the quote unquote tuck ins or bolt ons which go into those larger regions that we bought. But then I'd say That's probably 70 percent of my time doing that, and then 30 percent would be the ad hoc projects, whether it be helping the finance team rebuild The budgeting Model because they just didn't have the necessary skill set to do so. Or I feel like the way I did it or that they like it was cleaner
And it was easier to read and follow was more dynamic. So I'm doing something like that right now, actually helping rebuild The budget and that the Restatement model, I've done things from helping HR figure out how to Pay out more When we're buying a new practice, how to structure the equity piece and who gets what proceeds From.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:29] So it's it sounds fun that you're doing a lot of different things. Yeah, I mean fun in the sense of like it's work, but it's you're doing some interesting stuff. It's strategy and it's a mix. So that's nice. I mean, I'd rather be a professional
Joe: [00:43:43] Athlete or celebrity. There we are.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:48] Moment. Any other kind of final words of wisdom appreciate how open you've been and all the kind of steps that you know anything you're looking back, you're like, Oh man, you
Joe: [00:43:58] Should have done that. I mean, I think there's a lot of kind of misconception that there's like a structured path. And if you don't like if you don't get into private equity after the second year and if you don't get into like a megaphone, there's like it's the end of the road for you. It's just like you can really get anywhere you want if you work hard in your network. And, you know, I took a pretty unorthodox path. And like, you know, you look back and look, some of my friends, I went the more traditional paths and went to these mega funds. And now they're doing the same job I am and they're
like three years behind me. So you never really know how what path people might knock a brand name, but it's really about the people you work with, the experience that you know, just make sure you understand the experience you're going to get, the people you're going to work with and just constantly. Network says there's nothing more important than work ethic. Yeah. Agreed. Awesome, and we'll leave it at that. Thanks so much for taking the time. Yeah, sure thing, thanks, Patrick. Thanks for having
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:56] Me. And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis, if you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.
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