WSO Podcast | E174: Barclays IB Associate in ECM Makes The Brave Leap
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In this episode, we hear from Aaron, a former investment banking associate that worked in equity capital markets at Barclays in New York. Learn how he managed to land a job in investment banking coming from Arizona State and why he made a brave leap after almost three years in the industry. Hear why he moved down to Miami and what he's up to now.
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WSO Podcast (Episode 174) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me! As I talked to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into
Different career paths and life in general.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:22] Let's get to it. In this episode, we hear from Aaron, a former investment banking associate that worked in equity capital markets at Barclays in New York. Learn how he managed to land a job in investment banking coming from Arizona State and why he made a brave leap after almost three years in the industry. Hear why he moved down to Miami and what he's up to now. Enjoy. Erin, thanks so much for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast. Absolutely happy to be here, to be great, if you could just give the listeners a short summary of your bio.
Aaron: [00:00:58] Sure. So my name is Aaron Chavez. I'm originally from Phoenix, Arizona. Grew up out there, went to high school college out there, studied finance and ended up moving into banking right after graduating in Twenty Sixteen. And now I live and work in Miami after leaving banking, after becoming an associate.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:15] Did you always know you were going to be in finance or an investment banker?
Aaron: [00:01:19] So it was a pretty quick fit. What I would say is it didn't take me a long time. I entered. I went to Arizona State University. I went to bare their honors college over there and I entered as an econ Major, but then very quietly quickly learned more about what the opportunities were. And ASU has a really strong investment banking kind of student led and also faculty supported community, but very much a strong ecosystem that I very quickly got pulled into because I knew of banking and was curious about it and found out, Oh yeah, if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it. And banking seems to be the way for me.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:51] So what sophomore year you discovered that?
Aaron: [00:01:53] Yeah, so this was actually freshman year. So I was very fortunate. I moved fast. So I knew about banking in freshman year, but I really started to kind of lean in, discover more, start to do at least a little bit of intro networking to really, it's one of those things where you first hear investment banking, you're thinking investment management, right? And then the next thing you actually go, Oh, wait a minute, advisory capital raising negotiations, there's more to this pie, so that's a lean in learn more new student led interviews and whatnot and really start to grow in that way.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:23] That's awesome. And so your freshman year, you kind of knew about it. You're thinking, this is kind of what I want to do. And you said, Well, thank goodness, did you know kind of going into Arizona State that they had that?
Aaron: [00:02:31] Is that like I knew about it, but I didn't know what kind of the meat and potatoes of it was. I knew that it sounded important. I knew I had mentors that had done sales and trading, banking, investment management. So, you know, the AMS and Santis and all of that, we were all kind of together, but I didn't have that really concrete understanding of what it meant or what really it meant as a career, right? Because obviously getting into banking is no walk in the park. No career really is. But banking especially has so many checkboxes in so many ways to fall by the wayside. It was very much a figure it out early and get to work. Well, you're 18 years old.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:06] I wouldn't expect otherwise. Yeah. So tell me a little bit. Did you have family or people who knew about it because you said something about mentors? So some people had kind of a little exposure earlier on?
Aaron: [00:03:16] Absolutely. So I had a few mentors through different programs that I was involved in when I was younger. One of the big ones called B a leader foundation. So you just get to meet different people, and it's an Arizona based non-profit focused on education for underprivileged youth broadly. So my, my dad and the founder have been best friends since they were they were born, so it was one of those when the foundation was created. He's like, You're getting in and I'm like, All right. So I got some early exposure there to kind of really just an exposure not funneling me into one thing or another, but just meet people, talk to them, ask them questions and learn. And finance was something that came up kind of over and over again. So something that I had heard enough about that when I got to Asu, I was like, OK, I need to do some exploration, but I'm not going to be an English major. I'm not going to be a physics major. I know I'm in the business school, but it's what am I doing within it, right? Am I leaning towards accounting and finance and more operations or am I getting, you know, getting into the world of consulting and advisory and all these things and we all come full circle?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:12] But now what about your family? Like, were they in finance or did?
Aaron: [00:04:16] Oh, no, I grew up the simplest way I summarize it is just a poor Hispanic kid in Arizona, so it's like it's just my mom was forced into early retirement when I was like in third or fourth grade, my dad was in manual labor like he would set tile and do this stuff. So very kind of humble beginnings in that way. So for me, it was very I mean, it was it was a reach, right? I made double my family's income, if not triple it. My first job out of college, you know, so it was a it was a big leap and a proud moment for mom and dad, for sure, but definitely a long run up.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:50] So you got there, you get school, you're kind of
Getting funneled, learning a lot. It sounds like early on. And then to tell me about these, I've heard about the program there before. I've interviewed other people from Arizona State before, but tell me a little bit about like just your path specifically around like. Was it freshman summer that you had some sort of do you actually learn anything, freshman summer or what was that like?
Aaron: [00:05:11] No. So my Ci I landed in college freshman summers. What I would say because the RSU four kind of community there, especially the investment banking
Group, very collaborative. You get the vault guides, you get shortcuts, you get liar's poker, you get PDFs of everything, right? Yeah. So it really freshman year was, I think, kind of exposure. It was just learn everything. See where I'm really pulled because I've been thinking banking this whole time. But if I even trading really a good thought or asset management or anything in between, right, because there's one hundred things in between. And what does it mean as far as phase two? Because even that I was starting to plan out, what do I want? On banking, because I know it's a grind. I know it's a lot of effort, I know that there's huge Rewards If you stay in it, there's obviously Massive rewards. If you do well and then leave it, and then there's everything in the middle, depending on what you do with it. So for me, it was kind of learn and grow in that way and then prepare because I knew that my sophomore year and my junior year, that's when internships, the ibis, the applications would be coming in. As a freshman, I didn't apply or anything. So I just kind of lived the first year, a little bit more free in that way and just focus on everything from getting to know the community at ASU and just exposure to actually just learning about the industry, reading books, reading the Wall Street Journal, understanding what the nice actually meant from a fundamental basis versus just ticker tape that I see.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:30] Did you ever hear or use leverage to programs like CEO or MLT or anything like that? Yeah.
Aaron: [00:06:36] So as CEO, I was involved with sponsors for educational opportunities. The one? Yeah, yeah. So I got my internship offer before I got into SEO. So I got in and then I connected with SEO and that was a perfect match up because I knew the different people, so they basically invited me into their program afterward.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:54] Right? Ok, great. So you're kind of freshman summer. Are you working a job or are you making money or what's going on?
Aaron: [00:06:59] You're learning freshman your summer. I am just kind of doing my thing. I'm not. There's no ro work. It's very much just kind of enjoy the summer because I knew the summers that were coming next. We're going to be pretty intense. Let's talk about
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:13] That. Let's talk about just going into sophomore year because I know we have limited time. I want to get to like the actual work, but I find it's super interesting the way people kind of go through.
Aaron: [00:07:22] I think there's a hundred ways to get there, for sure. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:24] So you're coming into sophomore year, you kind of you now have a pretty good understanding. Are you now set on investment banking or you're saying, Hey,
Aaron: [00:07:31] Now I'm firmly in investment banking, but I'm very much in the I'm an ASU guy who's non-target who doesn't have a 4.0, right? My grades aren't aren't Terrible, but they're not what you would write on a resume in big, bold, italicized font, right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:45] Three four three five ish.
Aaron: [00:07:47] Yeah, I was I graduated with a three six. But I think when I was applying for places, I think I had like a three, five, [00:07:53] Four or something like that, like very, very much like at the cusp in that way for like the mid good grades, right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:59] Got it. Yeah. Okay, so, yeah, tell me about that sophomore year and how did you end up with a sophomore summer? Yeah.
Aaron: [00:08:05] So I got in sophomore summer, so I was very lucky. And basically what I did was I was like, OK, well, the chances of me getting this are going to be so small, so I'm not going to bother anybody. I am just going to go. And I remember I was sitting in like the ASU library and I opened up Excel Classic Excel, where bankers
always turned and I was like, OK, I'm going to make a list of every bank I can think of. So I wrote down there was like 10 12 banks write all the bulge brackets, the lizards, the molasses, the Barclays, you know, all the boutiques, everybody. And I went, OK, now I'm going to google them and see who has sophomore programs that I might get into. And there were like five programs out there, and then I put the dates they were due and I hit reverse sort. And immediately, the first thing that popped up was Citigroup, and the second name that popped up was Barclays. And I was like, Well, good enough, let's get started. So then I applied. I typed up an application. I think I may be getting the applications where maybe do like that week or the week after. Like, I barely was able to catch it and it just because it was incidental because my thought was, of course, always, I'm going to push really hard my junior year and I'm going to get that big offer and things are going to be good. So sophomore year, I knew it was kind of hit or miss. So I apply and I got them both interviews. I got phone screenings and I was like, OK, that's pretty interesting. I got phone screenings. That doesn't even always happen. Why do you think
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:17] You got the phone screens? Do you feel like do you feel like your resume was decent?
Aaron: [00:09:21] I think my resume was. I think you could tell by looking at it because I put a lot of time and attention into it and it was a banker resume, even if this stuff on it wasn't blowing people out of the water. I was still active. I was involved. I was participating at school. I had a few leadership positions minor at that. But this freshman year, what can you really do? Right.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:39] So check those boxes.
Aaron: [00:09:40] Yeah, yeah, it was one of those. I did everything I could to turn molehills into mountains, which is all that we can do. So I did that. and I mean, if I look at my old resume, it's funny. I get contacts today from ASU. They go, Oh yeah, I know who you are. And I'm like, How and they go. Your resume is the template that we use, and I'm like, Oh God, you're just looking at this over and over again. How many amazing? That's.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:07] I would love to get that resume and share it on this podcast. If you're
Aaron: [00:10:10] To ask for the people to dig it up, we can,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:12] You know, I'd love to do, I'd love to link your yours. And then we have a Wall Street oasis and we send out for free the investment
Aaron: [00:10:19] Banking resume template.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:20] I'd love to look at them side by side and see how similar they are. I mean, they're pretty similar to each other.
Aaron: [00:10:25] I'm sure. I'm very sure.
Patrick (CEO of WSO):: [00:10:27] So very good. Very good. So you're kind of you let you land some sophomore summer, which is like half the battle.
Aaron: [00:10:35] Exactly. So I got the phone screenings. I did both phone screenings and they all said I patched both of them said that I passed. I did them like in the same week or back to back. And then there was a huge snowstorm in in New York and city shut. Down their Super Day. So the Super Day didn't happen, and I just got lost in the mess, totally ghosted and City was off my radar, just gone. Oh my god, overnight. And I was like, Well, I guess Barclays is. So then Barclays goes, Oh yeah, what's the fly out? So I was like, OK. So then I go down there and like December, it was like late December, early January. It was a very kind of fringe time. Yeah, it's snowing. It's muggy. I'm sitting at a diner. I don't have my sense of direction because I haven't lived in New York for years, so I don't know which way's north and south. And I go into the building. I end up interviewing all day long. I had to interview next to a woman from Harvard who was like the head of the finance group and like another woman from
Georgetown, who had like a four point out. And I'm like, It's over, it's over. What am I doing? But I somehow interviewed and I ended up getting the offer and I got my offer. I'll never forget it was the first day of classes, my second semester, sophomore year. It was it was very much Immediate, so three semesters of no internship and then immediately had it and I was like, OK, well, if I do this well and I don't mess it up, I will get I will have the sophomore internship that will transition to Junior. Junior will transition to full time. So if I don't mess this up, I'm good with. I've done college. I've checked the box of getting a job in college. Yeah, that's awesome.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:05] So you're I mean, that's a big deal where the interviews super technical since you were a sophomore, I assume they weren't that rough. Was it works like favorite? Yeah, it was. They still expected you to know some of the basics.
Aaron: [00:12:17] Oh, for sure. I'll never forget this. This is my favorite story of the whole interview process. So I interviewed with three different people and all three interviews I was late to and I wasn't late because I chose to be late, but because I went to the first interview and the first interviewer couldn't find the light switch. And that delayed us like three minutes. You could tell he had never been on that floor. So then we started talking and chatting, and he starts asking me questions, and then I look at the thing and it's like five to ten minutes after he goes, I didn't ask you all the questions, and I'm like. What do I do? He goes, go to the next interview, I guess. Ok. I go to the next interview and it was a managing director in consumer retail and she was wearing this big, bright colored scarf. And for me, I just walk in. I was like, Oh, I like your scarf. I wasn't even thinking because it's just one of those just natural things. The whole conversation was just fashion for like 30 minutes, and I'm like, Ok. And then I go to the next interview and it was with a really intense like economist. Now he comes in and is like, Tell me about the market. Tell me about the New York Stock Exchange. Tell me about your view on what's going on. Tell me about the flow through of depreciation. I got the very kind of classic questions. Yeah. And then my Favorite was the night before I called the head of our student investment banking
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:32] Program. First off, before you jump there, how did you do on that interview?
Aaron: [00:13:36] I did well. I mean, I did well. There was one question that I didn't know the answer to. And it's this part right here, but I answered it. I knew in the way they wanted me to answer it. So it was one of those. If you can't answer it right, you can at least answer it. Not wrong. One of
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:49] Those. Yeah, so tell me what was it for me?
Aaron: [00:13:52] It was deferred tax liability. Right? And that's it's an easy one. When you know the definition, right? They weren't asking me to calculate it. They weren't asking me to run through a bunch of things. I didn't have to do an elbow or anything, but it was, tell me about it, tell me what you think. And the night before I had called or the head of our student organization and I said, Hey, Brad, by the way, I'm at Barclays, I'm in New York and I have an interview tomorrow, a Super Day tomorrow, and he goes,
Are you kidding me? And I'm like, No. He goes, What are you? What the hell are you doing? And I'm like, I don't know, man. He goes, Well, let's prep. Because he was so upset he didn't get a chance to like prep me that he, like, walked out a family dinner. He was like on the phone with me, and I'm flipping through the vault guide. You know all those questions. And I remember one came up and I was like, deferred tax liability. That's interesting, he goes. There's no way they ask you about that. Just skip it. Oh my gosh. And 12 hours to the hour I get asked by the most intense person I had met that day. Why don't you walk me through what a deferred tax liability is? And it was the I don't know. But here's what I can tell you about taxes. Here's what I can tell you about deferred things. And then here's what I would love to follow up and, you know, let you know more about it. It's funny. I was looking at this just last night and he got like a little chuckle out of it, but it was one of those. Sometimes the test is, can you stay composed, right? Because so much of banking is, you know, being put in the in the melting pot and in The Nutcracker, and it's one of those, if you can, if you can sustain it and actually maintain your composure through those challenges, I think you get points in a big, big way,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:20] For sure. Yeah. The other advantage, instead of having to vault guys, I feel like you're talking about two thousand five right now. But the other way you can get access is if you have the IB interview course that you could have looked up. Barkley interview questions Oh yeah, I'm sure.
Aaron: [00:15:34] I'm sure I did read, Oh, I was ask you, we love. We love that. I mean, we were on your stuff all the time. We read interviews and
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:42] There's a better way. There's a better way.
Aaron: [00:15:44] But this was the this was the freshman year. They give you a handful of PDFs and an email and say, Good luck, kid,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:50] And we
Aaron: [00:15:50] Have ours floating around. Yeah, there's so many good resources out there. Of course there's
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:54] The there's the four hundred question guy. There's the I know a question.
Aaron: [00:15:58] I have that that's a classic.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:59] Yeah, even some of our old guys are floating around, too, but that's great. Yeah. And I think I don't know if it's you licenses some of our other stuff, but definitely a lot of a lot of the main universities do like Emory and some other ones. But I think that's really interesting. So you still survived. That's a good lesson. Like you realize, Oh, no, I don't know the answer to this, but you just start reasoning through it and trying to keep your cool.
Aaron: [00:16:25] I think the big thing for those interviews are you have to expect you're going to get asked something you don't know because chances are you will. But the stuff that you should know, the stuff that you can know. Know it like down pat and then let your personality come through. I know somebody and I won't say their name because, of course, out of respect. But I know they went through an interview in the feedback that they got was you just felt like a robot. Right? It felt like you were spitting out everything properly. But there was no character. There was no, we weren't passing the lunch test, which is what I want to actually sit and have lunch with you. And that can turn people off in a big way. So I think you want to make sure you're prepared, of course, as much as you can, but you also want to have some personality. And as silly as it is complimenting someone's scarf, not because I had to, But because I was like, Oh, that's genuinely cool. And it built an immediate connection and made the interview softer in that way.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:12] Yeah, yeah. The airport test, the launch test, whatever you want to call it, it's important. Yeah, just getting that, getting the sense of like, it should be fun to sit around this person and not for a few hours.
Aaron: [00:17:22] And you know, you're going to be with them at 2:00 in the morning at least once. So at some point you want to make sure, all right, they're all right.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:27] So tell me a little bit about so you ended up getting the offer right away. And then now that we've gone through that. Tell me about kind of leading up into that sophomore summer. Were you nervous? Did you feel like confident that you were going to survive? What was what was the anticipation and tell me about what it was actually like going through it, especially that first week?
Aaron: [00:17:47] Yeah, the anticipation. For me, it was because I had done so much preparation, I wasn't really nervous, I was more excited because I knew I was going to get training. I knew I was going to be expected to drink through a fire hose and it's more it's anxiety. It's nervousness about the action, but the action still stays the same. So in that way, I think I walked in feeling as confident as you can. For me, it was more I wasn't thinking about competing with the other students and other interns. It was more I just need to make sure that I show them that I really want this. Then I'm not here asking to leave as soon as I can. Then I'm also not sitting here till 4:00 in the morning when nobody asked me to write. It's finding the balance, but for me, it was very much Can I go with the right mentality to not come off as the try hard sophomore intern, which of course, nobody is a huge fan of, but also someone who really cares and wants to do a good job. I mean, they're giving me an opportunity. They're paying me crazy money. And no matter what, this internship looks great. Even if I was terrible at it, the least I can do is give it my best effort.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:47] Yeah, tell me about the pay. Was it what did they? I can't even remember. Is it like a sleep or something?
Aaron: [00:18:51] It was prorated off of the base salary, and I think the base salary was like seventy k or sixty day. Ok, yeah, back then. So it was just it was just very much like a pro-rated
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:02] College kid. You're making a lot of money. Yeah. Oh yeah. I think I walk here. Remember this Barclays pay overtime.
Aaron: [00:19:07] No, I don't think they pay. They did not pay overtime, but it was nice because my sophomore year, I interned in a group that was the natural resources group. Very nice group. One of the top groups at Barclays. They're a top performer on the street, but their culture is actually really good. So it wasn't as much of a sweatshop as so many other places obviously can unfortunately be. So if I would have had to take in an overtime, I probably would have not made as much money. So I'm actually quite pleased with the flat.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:32] That's great. So you were working, what would you say? Like 70 ish
Aaron: [00:19:35] 80. I think my my sophomore year, genuinely, I think I was working about 60 to 70 now. My junior, my junior year, I was working 70 to 90. Yeah. And that was equity capital markets, which we can talk about. But how funny, how different the scenarios can be,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:51] Depending on a group, very different group, a different culture. So yeah, let's talk about so you're kind of going into it. It sounded like you're really like the natural natural resources group. So why jump to a different group? Just get different exposure. Different part of the bank was that the thought process? Or was it something where they were like, Hey, we
Aaron: [00:20:06] Want you over here? Yeah, I mean, it was all kind of a good experience, but I knew I wanted both sides of the fence because Barclays offered it, you know, you could do one and the other, you could do ECM and then go natural resources. You could go natural resources and go ECM. So I wanted to try out different things. I ended up getting some great exposure in both groups, and from there it was one of those. Ok, now that I've seen markets play and I know what it's like to basically sit on half a trading desk and I've seen what it's like to work and grind and think through evaluations all day. Now I can actually make a decision for full time where I want to be because I know wherever I'm going to be, I'm going to be there day in and day out, and I'm going to be there for at least two to four years minimum right, as I graduate from through an analyst rotation or through an associate rotation. And when you're coming up
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:52] At the end of your sophomore year, did you feel like it was like the offer for junior summer was pretty much in the bag? Like you felt good about it kind of midway. They probably give you a review and say, you just keep doing what you're doing.
Aaron: [00:21:03] I did have a great sophomore year review where I walk into the room, and it was like a pretty senior MD that a lot of people were. He was a director at the time, became the head of the group later, but he was very intense and it was a woman and there was a woman from HR. And I go in and I sit down and he looks at me totally dead face, and he goes, So to begin, you're doing terribly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:25] He just paused.
Aaron: [00:21:27] And I was like and I was sitting there and I in my head, it was like a very quick conversation. It was like, well, if I'm going to lose, I'm going to go down
in style. So I just looked at him and I was like, Go on. And he immediately started laughing, and the woman from HR was like, You're going to give one of them a heart attack because I had seen, like three people walk out, just sweating, just sweating, because I guarantee he'd done that to them. But I didn't. I didn't break. And luckily he was like, Oh no, you're doing great. Your team likes you. They want you to do more of this or do a little bit of that. Or, Hey, keep your eyes out for more attention to detail when you're doing even the menial tasks, right? Sometimes it's so easy to get an ego, even when you don't deserve it, right? You're no, you're better than no task, right? You do not have the job yet. You do all the tasks. And I think and I think for me, it was less an arrogance thing, more of an attention to detail thing, making sure I could see forest and trees. But then I saw I survived the joke and the the and the scary man. It's scary. But oh, it was hilarious. It was hilarious. And then and then I got the offer, and then he was he. Basically it was. You're doing good. Don't mess it up. One of those.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:33] And then you get the offer to come back. Any thought of potentially going to a different bank or leveraging it or they wanted you to take it away? I looked
Aaron: [00:22:40] At it, I looked at it, but I had so many friends at other banks and it's
A controversial statement, but sometimes it's nice being near the top and not at the top because I've done a lot of deals with Goldman and then a lot of deals with Manuel and JP Morgan and all these different people and all my friends that work at those banks. And when you're constantly fighting for number one and two, what you end up chewing through all your people. Unfortunately, when you're in the top three or four or five, depending where you're at, you're still working really hard. You're still doing a lot, but you actually can kind of think a little bit more and focus more on client relationship versus just how do we beat that guy In the room? And of course, there is a lot of that energy that that comes along with it with some, some big, fancy deals.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:23] Yeah. So tell me a little bit about just. I guess you mentioned a little bit of the cultural difference, equity capital markets, the difference between that and so what were you doing specifically for them? What did you get to do over the summer? And then specifically, why go there? Yeah, full time
Aaron: [00:23:39] Where coverage was more of a thought and skill and knowledge play where it's how do I think about this problem? How can I grind out these pitch decks? How can I understand this valuation? Equity was much more of a process and execution and narrative and communication play. It's how do we balance what our traders are doing with the syndicate? How do we think about an IPO with this client? How do we manage a relationship where coverage would like them to do a deal because it helps them with something later, but the market wouldn't be receptive to a deal. So how do we balance these things? There was a lot of walking the fence and not because we didn't have an opinion, but because our kind of job was to walk the fence in that way. And I thought that really, really interested in me because of course, equity is what's left when everything is left over right. So debt has a great play. Equity is all narrative. It's what are we doing, where are we growing? What's happening? And that play now, especially now at my current work, is exactly what I needed, but it was something that I knew I liked in the beginning. Also the trader environment because Barclays, their Equity Capital Markets Group, sits on the banking side, but on a trading floor, our floor is private, but the energy, there's footballs, there's lacrosse balls, there's hockey sticks flying around, there's bottles of whiskey everywhere with deal things all over it, and your MD's desk is 15 feet from you. So I've gotten I used to get interrupted from client calls to go to order sandwiches from like a fancy place down the block. And it's like, All right, you know this culture? It's wild and energetic, but dead, smart and very focused when they need to be and that I can kind of tool with. It's an added is a person with AIDS best friend, I suppose.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:21] Because, yeah, the open, the open space, open structure, the offices can be tough, right, to get some work done sometimes, but very intense.
Aaron: [00:25:27] But you know what? I'll tell you a little story that shows how you can adjust. There was a group that sat across from me and they did convertibles, right? Convertible equity, super smart, super intense. All of them like math, just intense, intense people. And I see one of their lead analysts just type typing away, just typing and one of their MDS used to patrol wiith a lacrosse stick or with a, Oh God, what is it like in India where they play, where you swing? It's like a baseball, you know, cricket with a cricket bat on his shoulder and he just screams for and when he screams for the analyst without looking ducks his head and the bat goes right above it, right? That was because he just knew he could sense it. And then as soon as the bat went over, head popped up, continue typing. And I'm like, That is a team. And that is my sign to go home. And I left.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:19] Yeah, I love it. Hello, that's great. So tell me a little bit about just how what, you know, going from the internship then to full time. So like, I assume senior year, it's great because you have the offer in hand. It's a party for feeling good.
Aaron: [00:26:32] You get you get some energy, you get to feel confident going out there. You start looking at places and figuring out who you're going to live with and figuring out what the summer in the city is going to unlock. Because at that first summer is where people are the most. It's like the first day of school, right, where you have every reason to talk to everybody and the city is you can feel it, especially after you've been there for a few years. You can feel the interns, you can see the suits, you can see the pods. But guess what? We laugh because we're on the outside. But that was us two years ago, three years ago, and they're having a blast. They're checking out all these places and it's like that energy. It's a really fun time. It's a really some of my favorite memories are from just the social times that you get. Of course, the grind is fun. Sometimes the grind is hard, sometimes else. But plenty of times it's just being with a bunch of friends doing some wild, wild stuff in Manhattan, so it never hurts,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:24] Especially during training. But yeah, so you get there, you kind of start full time, you move to the city. Where do you live?
Aaron: [00:27:32] So I basically I lived in four places in three years. I just needed being comfortable, apparently. So I live near Bloomingdales on the East Side my first year. Then I ended up moving into Chelsea. I lived on twenty second and eighth, then forty second and 10th, so moved right into Times Square, basically. And then I lived on fifty fifth and eleventh, so I just hugged to the west side of Manhattan all the way. Just interesting. But my apartment's got a little bit nicer and I got a little bit more room every time. So it was fine.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:01] Very cool. Very cool. And so tell me about the two years, almost three years there and your progression and what the thought process was of kind of jumping when you did to do your own thing, it sounds like it looks like your own thing, correct?
Aaron: [00:28:14] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:15] So let's talk about that. And because I think that's interesting to a lot of people, you know, you know, how did you do it so soon and what the thought processes around setting that up and that the risks associated with it all that. But let's start a little bit more about. We got about 15 minutes. Talk a little bit about more, just the progression over the two years or three years rather than, yeah,
Aaron: [00:28:36] The progression over the three years was very much the first six to 12 months are the most fire hose that the fire hose is right. After that, it cranks down in a big way, depending on what you want to do. Some people start expanding. I know people that would do equity capital markets and debt capital markets. They would do hybrid deals like they would be all over, so their play was constantly full. I know other people that only did certain types of deals, and we're only interested in kind of doing the minimum and they got to get by a little bit easier. For me, it was I wanted exposure. I wanted to. As silly as it sounds, I wanted to be in the room because if I'm in the room, I get to hear how smart people think and what they talk about and what jokes they make. You know what I mean? What do they use to engage people, especially at this level and this weird, different mega large building with all this money? What do they talk about and what's that world look like? So for me, I was very busy, but because I wanted to be and I wanted to kind of stay engaged as much as I could and get that exposure. So it was learning how to communicate, learning how to manage processes. I think the biggest thing that banking taught me In a good and bad way, but I think it's paid dividends is self sufficiency. I guarantee if you go to Barclays now, somebody there is teaching the interns my rules, which is first. Did you read it? Did you really read what it was to? Did you Google it? Three Did you check for precedents? If you've done those three, you can ask me any question at any time, any day. You haven't done those. In turn, you've got to go back. So it's like those things you learn because you go through them the hard way. And I think that was really what those three years were was building that professional backbone, building that ability to communicate with clients where one day I'm doing fine and hanging out and the next day my. He's like, Hey, we the CEO, needs a quick market update, and I'm on another call, so you need to pick it up and don't mess it up. And I'm like, OK, so pick up the phone. And this CEO, whose business does one hundred million in revenue, is talking to me, right? And I have to relationship manage. And when there's when the call ends by and goes, What's our follow up?
Do we owe him anything? You got to walk me through it. I wasn't on the call. I trust you. You got to. You got to hook me up here. So that was so much stronger in equity capital markets because the teams are smaller. My team was four people at one point, right?
It grew to like six or seven, and then my managing director ended up taking over the tech team as well. So we had like an eight person team. But with that's small compared to coverage groups where there could be 15 analysts, right? If you're an industrial somewhere. So that self-sufficiency, that kind of market lead that ability to kind of learn because also my group, we were the fintech or we were the figg group. So we covered banks, insurance companies, mortgage rates, financial institutions, but we also covered Spacs and SPACs are multi industry. And then when my MD took over tech, we started covering tech and startups more. So I started seeing so many industries, so many different types of deals, so many different personalities. You don't I mean, you go through the bank through the industry. That is where I think I started to kind of get the hint, whether it was conscious or not like, Oh, this advisory, this kind of negotiating this building community and doing things with it in a very material way seems to interest me. I knew that in the back of my head, I didn't really know what to do with it. And then the three years passed and I went, OK, I have a choice. I'm either going to stay in banking and go to BMD and I could see myself doing it and doing well, hopefully. Or I have to leave soon because if I leave late, then I'm just, you know, you're an old infant, right? And nobody wants that. And it's not to say you can't leave later at any point because every rank has its own kind of viable exits, depending on which you what you're doing. But I knew if I wanted to leave early and do private equity or hedge funds or something, it had to be soon. Or if I wanted to leave early and do something myself now was going to be like the first chance because that 19 may be too hard. You know, first year out of banking, maybe too hard. But now I'm an associate. I've got some credibility. I've been promoted, so it's not like I was just existing there for two years. Right? What if I try now? What if I like venture forth and give it a go? So I have that thought. I was also just kind of gradually becoming more unsatisfied with the bank. And then in April or May of twenty nineteen, I quit and I walked out one day, took the classic photo that everybody takes, posted it to Instagram, and a new and new world began
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:00] To tell me. So let's talk about that. Was it was it planned in advance for a long time beforehand? Like had you thought of
Aaron: [00:33:08] It was building? But I didn't know of the business that I wanted to build in advance of quitting. I quit very much with that figure it out mentality.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:16] And so tell me about like in your second year, because it seems like you were there for almost three years. Yeah, you'd gotten the internal promote. Did you ever go through the private equity recruiting process hedge from process? Do you ever start dabbling there to try and figure it out? Or what was the?
Aaron: [00:33:29] So I did some kind of more independent studies. I read stuff on Wall Street Oasis. I did some interviews with friends that had gotten banking offers or private equity offers, you know, very early, like in their first or second year. So it was one of those I had started to have the conversations. But the more I learned and the more
Aaron: [00:33:45] I experienced it and the more I saw I got, I had a friend of mine who did very well. He actually got into aig, right? Right for very intense, but he grinded like he earned
Aaron: [00:33:55] Every single penny that he's ever made. And I was like, OK, this is a really smart guy, and he's working like, hell. You know what I mean? If I want this, I can't just half want it. You got to really want it and be willing to work for it. And do I really want it? And the truth was I didn't. I knew the truth was that I didn't. The money may have been good and may have looked sexy on the LinkedIn or the resume, but it wasn't for me and I knew that there was something else that I wanted to try, regardless of what it was, and I would regret not trying more than I would regret following just this linear path, just because it's there.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:26] Sure, you kind of had an entrepreneurial bug that you said, you're like, I know I need to do something on my own.
Aaron: [00:34:32] It was the realization that I like collaborating with people that I don't like a hierarchy. So it's some people are entrepreneurs because they want to be rich and famous. Some people are entrepreneurs because they have a great Idea, and some people are entrepreneurs because they have no other choice. And I fell into that bucket
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:50] Where tell me about like, like, you're kind of you're there for over two years. You're surviving, you're an associate. Theoretically, you're doing well that week leading up to when you're quitting. Like, when did when was the decision made versus when you went in and said, Hey, I'm done the decision.
Aaron: [00:35:04] I think in my head, it was done November of the year before, but I think the actual week that I did it, it was much more of a formality. Like, it's kind of the easiest example that I can think of is you ever get broken up? A girl six months before she actually dumps you back. You know what I mean, but intentionally in my head, I was like, Oh, I remember I was at Thanksgiving with a buddy of mine. And Thanksgiving is not big in my family, so I spend it with friends on the East Coast all the time. They come down for three days, eat with my family, you know, lay on the couch. I'm like, All right, I can do that. Yeah. So I go meet up with a buddy of mine and we're chatting and he goes, what do you think you want to do? And I just said, I just think we work way too hard and we're way too capable to continue doing what we're doing right now, given how we feel about it. And it's like, what we're doing is good. We've liked it, but we don't love it. And that's an important distinction. I mean, so for me, it was OK. I've verified in my head that this isn't something that I want for the rest of my life. So now, now that I've kind of flipped that switch, now it's a decision. Do I do? Do I do hedge funds? Do I start my own thing? So the decision, you know, to get out was, I think, very early. But the modality didn't become clear until after I had actually already moved to Miami, Florida, and really started.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:22] Why Miami here? Why Miami?
Aaron: [00:36:25] I am what I'd call strategically impulsive, which means I am impulsive,
But hopefully pretty good. I was on the phone with a buddy of mine and my lease was running out in New York and I was telling him I was like, Yeah, you know, I have some ideas on some business stuff that I want to do. I think it would either work in like a New York or a Phoenix or like Miami or these different places. And he lives in Miami and he goes, You know, I really think you like Miami. And I go, Oh, yeah. He goes, Yeah, looks like you're kind of spot. And I was like, All right, deal. And then I moved there
And you moved. I was and I was there like, forty five days later.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:58] Wow. Ok, so now let's talk about your, your businesses, what you've launched, what's going on there? I see one being at ASO is that how you say with your co-founder, there you have. You're also managing partner at a firm called Argent Strategies,
Aaron: [00:37:13] Correct, and
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:14] Your CFO
Aaron: [00:37:15] At a company called Hach. Yeah. So, so tell me
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:19] About all of these. And like when they started and what's the stage of each of them and are they funded? Are they bootstrapped? And I know we don't only have five minutes, but whatever you want to highlight now, you're good.
Aaron: [00:37:27] We got we got another 10 minutes. Ok? Ok. So for this, I when I left banking, I started dabbled with ARG. Argent was the name, but I didn't really know what it was going to become, so I just tried a couple of different things. It's like a lot of informational interviews. I did some digital marketing stuff for a while, like it was a whole exposure, but I ended up moving down to Miami. I had kind of a fresh start and I knew I had these skills right sounding like Liam Neeson, but it's like I knew finance. I knew I knew strategy. I knew I knew how to communicate. I knew that I was pretty good at building relationships and kind of business development. Broadly, I had been like a connector type all through college where I have a friend or I know somebody or I met
this guy like building kind of that skill of how do you build connection and community? And so I went down to Miami and I knew about startups because I had covered them in banking and I had some exposure and I knew about technology because I sat next to the tech group and I liked kind of all of that stuff. So I said, OK, I don't know a single person in Miami. I'm going to go to every single networking event that's around tech and startups and entrepreneurship, and I'm going to learn and see what the community is really like. And then I walked into and there's my the firm actually came together in one moment. I was at my second event and I was watching a pitch competition, and it was one of those like little tiny pitch competitions where there's no screen, even it's just people walking up and saying something and like the mic is fuzzy and I and a guy walks up and goes, Oh, this is my name, and this is what I do, and I went, If that guy fails, He's going to be worth billions. Why isn't anybody asking any questions? It was one of those like, am I in the wrong room? And then the pitch pitches ended after a few and I look
Over and he's eating a piece of pizza by himself and I walk up and I go, Hey, man, I just really like your pitch. I'd love to stay in touch. And he goes, Oh, I really appreciate it. And then about 12 months later, he raised around and then he raised. He broke like three or four records on Kickstarter and raised millions of dollars. And now he's he's going to be a giant. And I remember I was in that pitch room and I heard him pitch and I sent a long text to my buddy at the time And I said, This is what I'm going to do. These startups need help. They need advice. There's no one that's an advocate for them in this room. Why can't I? I know the finance and the business and the strategy and the pitch decks. I've been doing that stuff for years. I'm going to help these startups go from little tiny, cute companies to lean, mean machines. They can actually compete. And when they have time to go, negotiate with the financiers and the investment bankers, they're going to have one on their side and I'm going to be able to advocate for them in a way that nobody else can. So I said, Fine, I'm going to do you get how
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:15] Do you get paid because they have no cash flow?
Aaron: [00:40:18] Exactly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:19] So private equity. And so how are you doing that?
Aaron: [00:40:21] And it depends on the startup because the truth is most startups are not started with no money, you know what I mean? They don't have tons of money. They can't be paying you 30 and 40 and 50 thousand retainers. And obviously depends on where they are. So I started focusing on startups pre revenue to series a so kind of the early stages of startups, but you could still be making some good money doing them. And I basically just started networking with a little bit of everybody to kind of see where my best fit was, but it ended up kind of funneling itself to business planning, financial strategy. So all the projections and budgets and cap tables and everything and capital raising. So everything from documentation to process to outreach to investor relations, all that kind of good stuff
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:00] That makes sense.
Aaron: [00:41:01] Ended up meeting all of these different founders and started just providing value. It's part of our company motto is give first, always give first. So we started just building in the community, building decks, talking to people, giving advice, offering to host sessions, offering to be a mentor and slowly but surely, our name, our people. It was first it was just me out there riding a scooter in the Miami Heat, going from place to place. And then slowly but surely, I actually ended up hiring somebody from ASU. We hired our second guy last week, so it's like the the company has been been growing and slowly has taken lift.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:37] This is great. So this is this is your kind of consulting business, you’re your
Aaron: [00:41:40] Advisory firm, Argent.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:42] Yes. And so you're the goal here is just to build this out eventually to like what? What's the what's the vision of person 100 person?
Aaron: [00:41:50] So yeah, there's a couple of different things. So in addition to the consulting, it's like consulting is a great start because one, it's kind of where you start. But also clients aren't just clients, they're people. They're not like a bank where it's just a fee and they go away. Sometimes clients have ideas or new deals, or because I'm a banker, all the investors are more likely to talk to me because they're like, Oh, finally, somebody that actually can speak multiples. All right, this is what I'm looking for. This is what I want. This is this. So I became kind of this weird pin in the community where all the startups that I knew, they didn't know what they were talking about. I had my whole family's built on teachers and I had I helped build the the training program at Barclays for all their interns. So for so for me, it was education was my kind of backbone.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:34] So we should talk about corporate training because we need more guidance.
Aaron: [00:42:37] Absolutely. We can do all kinds of stuff. So it's very much a I started to educate and establish these people while also building the investor relationships and slowly piece them together. Well, as that started happening, clients would come to me first. It was a client like hatch where I ended up becoming their CFO. That company is in a very interesting spot and is already getting some early M&A discussions. Let me put it like that. I can't really say too much More, but it's like that company is doing really well. And I saw it pre product and in 12 months they are blowing up. And I guarantee if that thing goes the way that I want it to, it will be a front page story sometime someplace. It's great. It's exciting. Dean, it also is a company that I co-founded with a former client who approach me with this idea of and something I very closely relate to. Hispanics don't understand financial literacy, and not just because, not because They're dumb, but because there's no materials tailored for them, whether they be first generation, second
generation and new immigrant or whatever. And they're a big portion of the U.S. population. Why don't we cater something for them that's not just trying to sell them something, but they can educate in a big way? So we came together, we built this company called Dna Donoso, which provides financial literacy as its backbone, education and investment advice. And then on the other side, we offer products and solutions whether they want to invest capital with us and put money in the New York Stock Exchange, whether they want to engage with our products and services. It's a very kind of you can go. Here and find good Education and resources
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:07] And curated products, a NerdWallet for the. Exactly.
Aaron: [00:44:11] I think Credit Karma Nerdwallet But imagine if they offered more of an education basis as well, because a lot of times you go to like a NerdWallet because you want to see the best credit card. Well, if you're from Mexico moving here, you don't really understand how the U.S. credit system works and where you get you. Or do you
file for these things and what does it count for? So we start from block one. Why do you even want credit? Exactly. You know what I mean? What is it? What is the lease Actually mean and on all of these different things? So to that extent, it's really it's a good chance to start from square one and build up from there.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:43] Has that been I mean, it's only been super young still. So yeah, we're actually going.
Aaron: [00:44:46] We've been in development because we we've been in development most of this time, forming relationships, getting the back end built out to integrate all this technology. So that should actually be going live in the next couple of weeks, probably by the end of October.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:59] Awesome. What's like the format going to be? Is it like, is it like, what are the sections of the site so I can visualize, like an educational thing? But is it going to be like broken down by like investing in like stock market stuff versus credit and budgeting and stuff like that? Like, how should I think of it?
Aaron: [00:45:15] Yeah. So there's kind of like three pillars. There's the Education, which splits into topical like, I want to learn about interest rates or debt or loan, and then we're creating structured content. So it's like, Hey, I want to learn about banking broadly, OK? Start with lesson one. Here's lesson two. Here's a quiz. Here's this Here's that. So we're doing online education.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:45:33] Exactly. Obviously, yeah, one hundred percent.
Aaron: [00:45:35] So we're doing a hybrid there. We have the investment arm where you can come with us and we have a partner that's where robo advisor, a registered robo advisor as well, so we can take money and use our quant strategy to actually invest so people can start to build some income and build some kind of asset base early. And then the third layer is kind of the bundle of products and services, everything from insurance to credit, to connections, to banks, to loans. We want to make sure that we have a curated, safe list of resources that you can engage with and learn with when appropriate, right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:08] No, it sounds exciting, man. That's a we got to keep me up to date. Let me know how everything is going.
Aaron: [00:46:13] Yes, everything. There's so much stuff going on we actually partner with. We're hired to advise a venture studio as well, and that has 10 companies and 10 technologies in it. So that's something that, you know, is a whole nother thing. So argent is It's a true startup in the sense that It started from literally nothing and really in like the last, I would say, six to 12 months, we've started to hit the point where I'm kind of not done rowing, but now I'm more like steering. Where I am today have gotten probably forty five emails, right? And it's like, Oh, this is what inbound feels like. Yeah, this is what this stage and it's great because I am bringing my clients there and now. So to have am I getting there? So it's a great it's a
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:57] It's a good feeling. That's awesome. Yeah. Any final words of wisdom before we call the pod?
Aaron: [00:47:02] Yeah, I think I would say to all the students and all the people preparing for banking. The two things that I always think about is one, go in with kind of eyes wide, open and an honest intention to learn and do everything. Thinking that you're better than any task won't get you anywhere. It's something that you get a lot of points by being willing to do the work and have a good attitude about it. And the other thing I think is, while you're there, think about what you want to do. And if you want to stay in banking and you want to or switch groups or go to, you're going to hedge funds. Any decision is fine, but don't get don't just go with the flow because it's the flow. Go with the flow because that's the direction you want to go. And whether it's venture out into the world and try something new like me or go hedge funds or become a managing director. They're all equally valid. I just hope these students do kind of what I did at least and think for themselves and feel satisfied with the choices that they made.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:56] That's great. Can you give me any sort of idea you were making good money, I'm sure as an associate,
Aaron: [00:48:01] But I'm full transparency on all that stuff.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:03] So you were making
Aaron: [00:48:04] Probably, and I think it was like one twenty five, something like that. But then but then you're yeah. But then bonus what? I didn't get the full bonus because I left early after I got promoted, but it would have been at least another probably 60 to 90k.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:19] Yeah, so you're a two, you're the two hundreds. Sure. Obviously, now you're in a lower cost of living area. But do you feel like? You know, you're going to get back there soon you think you're on the road there because obviously it's very hard to build up to that as your own startup, right? So I'd say I'd like to hear what your thoughts are like. How long is it going to take to get for you to get there? What's your thought?
Aaron: [00:48:39] Yeah, yeah. Right now I'm making about 50 K, but it's because I'm pumping the rest of it into the business. I mean, it's one of those. I'd rather live cheap now and be rich later. That's definitely the way to do it. But the other thing is because I'm a startup and because I have a lot of equity positions for me, there's a non-zero possibility that I go from zero to five years from now worth 10, 20 million if things
Close out the way that I want. But in the meantime, constantly building the recurring
Revenue, establishing New clients and building out the firm, I should I imagine I'm back to banking salary within the next 12 to 18 months. That's awesome,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:49:16] Man. Well, thanks so much for sharing your story. It's different and I love it. We love different here. So absolutely that opens people's eyes. And hopefully some of the listeners really enjoyed it. Thanks so much. Absolutely a pleasure. And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis dot com. And till next time.
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