WSO Podcast | E189: UK Target to Singapore in DCM in Investment Banking to Treasury in Hong Kong
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In this episode, CapM shares his path from a top target in the UK to working in debt capital markets for an investment bank in Singapore. We learn why he moved to the UK for school, why he ended up back in Singapore and why he made the jump to Treasury for a large corporation in Hong Kong.
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WSO Podcast (Episode 189) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me! As I talked to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, Cap shares his path from a top target in the UK to working in debt capital markets for an investment bank in Singapore. We learn why he moved to the UK for school, Why he ended up back in Singapore, and why he made the jump to Treasury for a large corporation in Hong Kong. Enjoy. Right, captain, welcome to the Wall Street Oasis podcast.
CapM: [00:00:51] Hey, thanks, Patrick. Nice to be here and thanks for having me.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:56] Be great if you could just give the listeners a short summary of your bio.
CapM: [00:01:01] So, yeah, so I studied in one of the target UK universities in London, and I after graduation, I went back to Asia to start my first job in investment banking, so specifically in the debt capital markets industry. I was in DCM that capital markets for about four years. Then I joined one of my clients, actually in the Treasury Department. So I would say that you could consider that, as you know, the exit opportunities and then since then, I've always been in Treasury and sort of leveraging. the knowledge and experience from my days in corporate treasury,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:16] That's who we are now, so let's go all the way back to undergrad at this target university in the UK. Why go to the UK? What was the thought process where you're thinking, I'm going to stay there? Did you always know you wanted to debt, capital markets or DCM?
CapM: [00:02:33] Yeah, so going back to the decision of studying in the Uk, I always wanted to study overseas and gain sort of a different sort of exposure.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:47] And where were you from originally, if you don't mind?
CapM: [00:02:49] Yeah, yeah. I grew up in Asia, specifically in Singapore. Mm hmm.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:57] Okay. So you kind of knew early on, how did you know this, that you wanted to be in the UK? Or was it or get that exposure? Was it parents saying you should go? Was it just you thinking it yourself or what kind of encouraged you?
CapM: [00:03:12] Well, yeah, it was basically all me just wanting to live and experience a different, you know, the other side of the world. Yeah, it was definitely the best, the best decision ever. I would always tell my parents the person who left. Is different from the person who came back.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:39] For sure, and so you don't regret at all going to the UK for your study. Where do you what do you think it helped you in the most for other listeners that are maybe thinking of making some of it? What were they like the biggest pros of studying somewhere outside your home country? Outside of Singapore.
CapM: [00:03:58] It appeals to people who are always in search of going out of their comfort zone. Just I didn't expect anything. I just win, and I loved it. I like being independent, I like the sort of independent life. The thing that really.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:25] So were you just doing this as like an adventure or did you think, Hey, it's going to be good for my career?
CapM: [00:04:30] Both, Yeah, I think definitely the school I went to was pretty good. Yeah. And in sort of the target zone for finance. But I also think that on top of getting an education, it was good to see. What it was like outside of Asia? Yeah, I didn't really have a lot of that growing up, so that was just my chance to figure out how it is. I think it's similar to how maybe Westerners or anybody else who wants to understand Asia. I think it's similar.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:20] Yeah. Studying abroad programs and all that stuff. Yeah. So, OK, so you're there. You're kind of. Tell me a little bit about the recruiting for investment banking kind of going through that program. Was it something where, like my sophomore year, you had to figure it out or back then when your recruiting was a little bit more relaxed? Can I know it's competitive coming out of the school you're at? So how did you kind of treat it and how did you end up back, you know, back in your home country?
CapM: [00:05:48] Sure, I didn't really take it as seriously as I expected it to be. I came into the school back then. I was just. So grateful and happy to be able to land in the school that I was in. Then it was only after arriving in the UK, and then I got bombarded with all the internship cycles and the job applications, and it all start way before the actual
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:33] Wait for the actual job.
CapM: [00:06:34] Yeah, yeah. So I. But that was just like the culture of the university or the undergraduate.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:46] Were you applying mostly to like UK based banks then or did you were you ready for the interviews or did you like you knew what was coming? Or was it a surprise to you?
CapM: [00:06:56] Hmm. It was a surprise at a start, but I just kept applying, I applied to all banks. Then. In London, in Singapore, in Hong Kong, actually, basically anywhere I. The thing that I kept quite fixed was that I wanted to do finance specifically in front of his cell site finance. The thing that I wanted to say was. I graduated in the year or the year after the Eurozone crisis. So in Europe or in London, it was definitely a lot harder. So my feeling back then was that. The. The hiring was they would look at a situation back then and they would decide the hiring plans for the next year, so if they were in a crisis this year, they would. That would affect the hiring in that year or the year after. So I was in that zone. Yeah. And I found it really difficult then to find something in London. I would have stayed in London if I had a job, but unfortunately, I didn't, and I managed to score an offer back home
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:34] And the offer back home was in the Debt Capital Markets Group. Yes. Specifically, was it something more like you were interviewed for that and you had to know specifically about capital markets before the interview? Or did you get a job with the bank and then they placed you in that group later on?
CapM: [00:08:55] Um, it was. Make of both, to be specific, it was a management associate program where they allowed you to rotate. Oh, cool. It's common in some of the banks. Yeah, but the main difference in between some of these programs is that they allowed you to some of them. Some of the banks allow you to choose your eventual department, and some didn't. So. I actually had to office from banks back in Singapore. One didn't allow you to choose, so you would rotate. You would do rotations for one to two years
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:47] And you're rotating through like corporate banking credit risk. What else like what types of departments do rotating through?
CapM: [00:09:53] Yeah, I'll comment on that. So. the structure of those rotations were that you would just you would rotate, sometimes you have a choice, sometimes you don't. And for the program that didn't allow you to choose your eventual department, they would not. Your rotations are basically also not fixed. I didn't go, I didn't go for that, I went for another one where I was allowed to choose my eventual department. Well, obviously they had to pick me for the eventual department. But so anyway, I chose that capital markets front office department and my eventual home department. And because of that, they were able to structure my rotations around what I needed to know for my eventual job. So. Or front office. Capital markets, I was rotated to credit risk syndicate desk. Even corporate banking, where I got to know the arms that I work with closely. A short stint in the ops department, in the trading department.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:29] Why would you even choose that department? Why that one with our other ones you were considering? Or did you feel like that was the most interesting for specific reason? Because I think that could help a lot of people say, you know, anyone interviewing and they ask you why debt, capital markets or why capital markets, what was what were your thoughts? Why did you choose that group?
CapM: [00:11:48] Yeah, I think a lot of the sort of information that undergraduates can get quite heavily focused on equities and, you know, M&A in the market. But I've always been more of a. That person. I don't. I think back then I chose DCM because I thought that it was the bonds were a bigger market. And I've also tried to read as much as possible that it was a fast-paced, I guess, job compared to many or where you can spend nine months on a project. I don't have that kind of stamina, really. So DCM was the right choice. And it turned up well.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:01] I wouldn't say that, I wouldn't say that in the interview for anyone listening that you don't have the stamina for this. But no, I get what you're saying. You're saying that you didn't want to be on a long term engagements. You wanted shorter term engagements.
CapM: [00:13:14] Yeah, that's right, and closer to the market as well,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:17] Closer to the market. Cool. So how did things progress? You did your rotations where you learning a lot or was it did you know the first few months since you were kind of finance, you know, you had a little bit of finance background economics? Was it pretty easy for you or was it really hard? Talk to me about the hours the pay anything you can share for the listeners. For the rotations,
CapM: [00:13:41] It was it wasn't that fulfilling, really, in terms of the technical knowledge that you can get. I think I'll just be honest here because some of these rotations were for three months where the receiving department that would take you in for the three months didn't see you as somebody who could contribute to the work. So. Then they would probably entertain you, teach you for the first month and then they would pay attention to it, you would drop off. Yeah, that would be. I don't know about other companies that have mentioned associate programs for years. I think then they may have a culture of having management associates on rotations all over. But some of the banks, maybe not. So I think maybe at this point, my advice would be if you had a say in the rotations. I think it would be good to have them really short or really long. So the receiving department can either just. It's easier for them to decide if you are here really for a really short time, then your focus will be to build your network with them, you know?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:11] Yeah, like one month or six months, not three, because at three months it's like you're like, they can kind of use you, but not you can't do any long term projects. And then, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. That's interesting. So they had you kind of this in between, so you didn't get as much value. You probably got to see a lot of difference. The bank, which was useful, but it could have been shorter. You're saying they need you and you?
CapM: [00:15:35] That's right. I think, Ben, back then I realized that and my focus wasn't on building the technical knowledge back then. It was just for a. Decided to focus on having a high level view of the things that this department would do and also. Most importantly, get to know the people that are there.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:04] So I forgot to ask you, this bank in Singapore started to go back on you, but did you ever do a summer internship there or anywhere else? No, you just, you know? Yeah.
CapM: [00:16:16] So going back to the whole job applications in university, I was really. I think I missed. I missed the whole. Was the
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:29] Resume drops?
CapM: [00:16:30] Yeah, the one before the internships. The first year on.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:35] Oh, the spring. The spring
CapM: [00:16:37] One. Yeah, I missed that. I missed the internships. I yeah. So in a way, I kind of fell short, I guess, of some of the job requirements. I think even back then, a first class honours wasn't enough. You had to have quite a few internships in the same.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:00] Yeah, it's competitive, especially back then if the economy was weaker and they weren't hiring as many.
CapM: [00:17:05] Yeah, that's right.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:06] So OK, but you still landed a job that was kind of what during your last year in university, you were kind of just started applying when you got back onto campus.
CapM: [00:17:16] Yeah. In my final year, I decided to focus more on job applications and securing that job even before graduation. I think that was pretty much the strategy. Yeah, I definitely studied way more than I should have. So I was good on securing a good
CapM: [00:17:38] Honest. Great.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:40] Yeah, that's cool. And then how about pay for this bank? And I have no idea about pay in Singapore. I'd love some insight. Is it similar to other front office roles in other countries in terms of like, you know, the overall pay in terms of like base and bonus?
CapM:: [00:17:57] Yeah, no, it wasn't. It wasn't going to be the same as, I guess what the numbers were.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:04] I know, like New York pays higher than UK typically.
CapM: [00:18:08] Oh yeah, in Asia definitely pays less and pays less.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:12] So do you mind sharing like a range? You don't have to give us the exact numbers, but do you remember around?
CapM: [00:18:20] Let me just quickly. Oh, it was like 3000 U.S. dollars per month.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:30] My story got it first starting for starting base. Ok, and then any bonus or mostly a rotation program. So there's like minimal bonus or no bonus.
CapM: [00:18:38] Yeah, the rotation. Yeah, it was like minimal.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:40] Yeah, OK. And so you kind of go through these rotation, it's like a full two year, you know, two years. Is that right or?
CapM: [00:18:48] A minus one and one
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:50] Half years and then kind of then you get to your group and you're there for a little while and then what's your thought process like? I'm going to be here long term. You start looking right away for a different job. What's your thought process in terms of, like, like you said, exits?
CapM: [00:19:03] You mean you mean doing the rotation or after
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:06] Both, either. Like, did you start thinking right away like, I need a look at a different firm? Or did you think of, you know, hey, you know, this would be a really good exit? Did you start applying to, you know, jobs in other countries? Or do you think, Hey, I'm going to stay here?
CapM: [00:19:22] Did all that?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:24] So you're looking at everything you were just, but you knew you wanted to move.
CapM: [00:19:28] Yeah, I think when I was in in the rotations, I was not I wasn't super happy. But that was just me back then thinking that, Oh, I'm in rotations, I'm not getting the technical knowledge that I should be. And also, that was one and I started to look elsewhere. Back then I was thinking that, Oh, OK, I just started working for in my first year, so I could maybe try and apply again back to some of these fresh graduate programs. That was number one. Number two, I was thinking because I graduated in the, you know, doing, you know, during the Eurozone crisis, I was hoping to learn something again when the economy was better.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:28] Yeah. And so how did that? How did that go? How were the applications? Were you able to kind of get into any of the businesses?
CapM: [00:20:34] Yeah, I didn't get
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:35] Anything at all. It's probably when you look at you because you weren't in school still.
CapM: [00:20:39] No. Yeah, this was in my first or second year working in Singapore.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:45] Yeah. But you said you tried to apply back into the graduate program for school? They would they? Did you get any interviews from that? No. So where did you get some success and did you not work at all talking to people? What's that like in terms of over there or how did you end up at your next role?
CapM: [00:21:04] Uh, yeah, I think the job applications didn't really. Didn't really have any success. I just I guess it just started working, and I think in my second or third year, yeah, I then I got a call from a recruiter that represented a bank, also in Singapore, that wanted to start up their Dcm desk. So I went over it was for a Chinese bank that wanted to do more ECM deals, so I think back then the deals that I did were very focused on. In Singapore. Southeast Asia. So I wanted to do something more closely related to China
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:03] Mm hmm. Ok. And so this was an opportunity for that. So you did you interview for it? What were the interviews like for that kind of role? You just talked about the deals you had already done kind of thing.
CapM: [00:22:13] Yeah, that's right. I think the bank, it was more like an experience higher interview. So there wasn't a lot of all the basic stuff with all the assessments and stuff. So they just basically looked at my Cv, the deals I've done and they were like, OK, yeah, I think you're good to go.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:32] Awesome. So you made that move. And then how was that? You're still in Singapore, but how is that working for a Chinese bank?
CapM: [00:22:41] Yeah, I think it was moving from a mature decision platform where everybody knew what they were doing. It was like. The deal came in and came out smoothly, so it wasn't that was the first role. The second one was, as I said, before they were trying to set up the DCM desk. So it was a bit of trying to get the deals and also building up the business almost from scratch.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:15] Now, so a little more entrepreneurial.
CapM: [00:23:18] Yeah, I quite liked it. I think I quite liked that whole entrepreneurial start-up.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:27] Was it a big pay bump, at least because you kind of took more of a leadership role there as an experienced hire or?
CapM: [00:23:32] Not really. Not really, I think. I definitely did take a pay rise, but it was. It was more of the case where they didn't have a budget to hire somebody more senior. So they kind of settle for somebody who had two to three years of experience. Got it rolled with It and they roll
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:58] With it and fingers crossed that it wouldn't backfire. So how did it go? How what was that like? And then why make the movie did you? And eventually you went to? I mean, we can talk about it just in terms of whether to work in Hong Kong or Singapore or just Asia in general for career development. I'd love to just hear your opinion and for the listeners out there that are kind of in a similar boat. If you could just give them advice, since you have a lot, you have a lot of experience kind of in both markets, so. Yeah, I.
CapM: [00:24:32] I've always. Ok, so before going into all the specific experiences, I just wanted to state my guiding principle when it comes to my career and my experiences, I've always wanted to diversify my experience. And always diving in something. I almost completely knew, so I would say I'm quite happy to. To say that in my relatively short career, I have. What in Chinese banks look for? You know, Chinese companies worked in Hong Kong, Singapore, even a short stint in Jakarta. That was one of my rotations. So. Um. And I've done, you know, front office sort of cell site and banking, I've done some of the rotations. I've even crossed over to the client issue, a client site. so in a way, I definitely would. That's sort of the guiding principle that I had for my career. Just diversifying, I guess, branching out, you know, getting a bigger picture of the entire situation rather than. Uh, sort of drilling down into one. Sector and being like 20 years in the sector and becoming M.D., that's not really my. So I wanted to do it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:24] And what are your thoughts on language? She said, You know, we could talk about whether learning Chinese is worth it or not.
CapM: [00:26:31] Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest things that I wanted to talk about. I'm not, I'm not going to. Discourage anybody from learning the language, for sure. It's definitely quite difficult, and I've seen people, I mean, non-Chinese people who wanted to learn the language and they have done it quite well and they are definitely really hardworking. They can speak it well. But the main thing that I wanted to say is when it comes to the finance world. I don't think the hiring companies will take. Any sort of. Language proficiency, any candidates, no matter what your proficiency is. So even for me, I'm of Chinese and ethnicity from Singapore. My Chinese is pretty OK looking in a Chinese bank and then another chinese organization after. I didn't feel like they would consider my Chinese as up to their standard. And I've also heard, you know, what's it called? Anecdotes of hiring managers who only hire native Chinese people and even got to the point where they would hire somebody. They would prefer somebody from their own home province.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:25] So you see that in the United States, too, I mean, hey, I'm going to hire somebody only from the south where I'm going to hire somebody only from the West Coast, right? Yeah, it's not too anecdotal.
CapM: [00:28:36] Yeah, that's right. That's right. And it's kind of the whole thing where they just so many candidates out there they are. They don't have to pick you, really.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:49] There's no reason to pay you if you're not a native speaker. like there's just, yeah,
CapM: [00:28:54] Yeah, I mean, it Sounds It would sound impressive that you can speak it, but in terms of really getting down? Yeah, yeah. converting it or monetizing it the language skills for your career in Asia? Not really. Yeah, I'm definitely like first hand.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:14] Very hard to do. Yeah, no. I've spoken with some guests on the pod that have been able to do that, and they've expressed that it was incredibly difficult. And that they felt doors were always close to them, even if they were completely, you know, you know, almost native fluency. Yeah. So yeah, that doesn't surprise me. So, yeah, tell us, I guess in terms of exits and Treasury, I'd love to learn more about that. What does that even mean? So I understand DCM, you're working on bond issuance, you know, bond issuances, all this stuff. Sell-side, right? And then you move to. Um, the Chinese bank in Singapore doing similar type of work just a little bit more entrepreneurial. But then what was your next move? And let's talk about let's wrap it up and just tell me about like why you move there and then specifically, why you made the latest jump and what
CapM: [00:30:11] What that entails. Sure. Yeah, I think the next role after this two design rules was with a sort of a non-bank, just corporate, basically. Mm hmm. And how I landed that role was because they were my client in DCM, So I had worked with them closely for their bond issuance. They knew my working style and they were very comfortable with me. So they were like, you know, they were just extended this sort of. They basically asked, You know, do you want to come over to Hong Kong to join us and help us issue bonds? And fundraise. Well, for the company, so I yeah, I decided it was a good move. Moving from it was a whole like a holistic consideration. So I decided that generally, it was a move from Singapore to Hong Kong. That was definitely something I looked it was a plus point to me because I've never worked in Hong Kong and it was a move from banking Southside banking to now, I guess the corporate treasury side. So, so I'll explain a bit more on that. Why I made that move. I think in front of office sell-side and you're always trying to get your deals. So that's a bit of a sales element to it where you're trying to jam in your client's deals, then treasury on that front is not much of a sale to your mall, the client now. And it's more strategic for sure in a way. How do you decide between different funding options? You issue debt. Do you take loans? Do you raise more equity? So, so it's definitely a choice between doing front office sales job versus a strategic role. That was definitely the consideration back then. And I, yeah, I quite like this Treasury. A job,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:51] Yeah. And so tell me, tell me more about like work going in and working inside a corporation, the Treasury Department, obviously these are big corporations in order to have, like have a Treasury Department that's meaningful. And so tell me a little bit about like, what's your how your day to day switched from sell-side DCM banking like you'd be spending most of your days doing what like looking at new deals for your clients when you're in DCM versus? How did it change modelling emphasis, what so like people could get a perspective, but what Treasury is like?
CapM: [00:33:27] Yeah, I think in Asia, DCM, there wasn't a lot of modelling for sure. I was between DCM and Treasury. The hours were definitely a lot more intense in DCM than in Treasury. I think Treasury, you can pretty much assume you get off on time.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:49] So like 60, 70 hour weeks and DCM down to 50 or 80 hour weeks average.
CapM: [00:33:57] I don't know what you call it but at nine to six nine seven
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:00] Nine two six four DCM.
CapM: [00:34:03] No, no, no, I mean, for Treasury,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:04] For Treasury, yes or no. So like, yeah, so in a normal like 40 to 50 hour week. Yeah, that's right. And in banking and banking, it was like an extra 10 to 20 hours on top of that.
CapM: [00:34:16] Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's pretty. And then doing crunch time, it can be like 9:00 to midnight, nine to two. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:28] Sounds familiar.
CapM: [00:34:30] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think I think the thing about DCM is that it's kind of like a constant sprint rather than a marathon. Yeah. B there will be some times where, you know, there'll be some more like minor downtime. But when the deals come, they just you just got to rush man, you know? I quite like that. Yeah, and I think I think in a way, it was a good first career for me to jump into something that intense and then moving to something that is less intense after that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:05] Yeah, that makes it hard to go the other way.
CapM: [00:35:08] Definitely, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you get your grounding first. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:13] So tell me, what's your thought process, any kind of final words of wisdom before we call it in terms of like the path you went on? You're thinking of staying in Treasury long-term and any thoughts for the listeners who want to follow in your footsteps?
CapM: [00:35:27] Yeah, I think it was definitely a tragedy, something that I would like to pursue long, long term, but I don't. I don't know if I would have landed in this if I didn't go through the DXM route that I did. Yeah. And suddenly, things would have been a lot different if I had actually landed something in London anyway. Yeah. Yeah. But I think in general, if you are thinking of finance as a first. First career, first job. I think it's pretty good in terms of the grind that you get. I don't think subsequent everything else would probably seem easier.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:23] I'd agree with that is my experience, from banking to even the private equity, which was it was not the easiest transition, but. Well, listen cap and really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your wisdom and your experience with the listeners. And yeah, let's stay in touch. And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis, if you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis Dot. And till next time.
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