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WSO Podcast | E192: Non-target University to BB Investment Banking Analyst to Private Equity Associate

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In this episode, Cocrew shares his path from a non-target university to a bulge bracket investment banking analyst role. We learn how he was able to land multiple relevant internships and how his networking emails yielded such a high response rate. Listen to hear how his first foray into private equity recruiting was a train wreck and how he turned it around only 4 months later.

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Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and Chief Monkey. And this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me as I talk to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, CO Cruz shares his path from a non-target university to a bulge bracket investment banking analyst role. We learn how he was able to land multiple relevant internships and how his networking emails yielded such a high response rate. Listen to hear how his first foray into private equity recruiting was a train wreck and how he turned it around only four months later. Enjoy. Okay. Co crew, thanks so much for joining the Wall Street Oasis podcast.

Cocrew: [00:00:57] Yeah, very happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:59] So it'd be awesome if you could just give the listeners a short summary of your bio.

Cocrew: [00:01:03] Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up not on the East Coast, pretty much very far away from the world of banking, private equity. Any of that kind of stumbled into it during my undergraduate years. Was initially gunning for medical school, took a sharp left turn. I kind of had a few people that I went to school with that were going into finance, thought it was super interesting, was also dabbling in some kind of like business school related courses. So for a lot of soul searching and talking to a lot of different people, I decided to give it a shot at a few kind of banking and finance related internships pretty early on. So it gave me like a flavor for what I was stepping into. I was lucky enough to kind of recruit into a kind of bulge bracket bank for a junior internship that I guess went well, they want to be back. So I did kind of a two year analyst stint there, graduated from that program, went to kind of a more traditional middle market private equity firm, and since then have transitioned into another private equity firm that does kind of earlier stage technology investing, but they're also flexible mandate. And I kind of have pretty broad exposure there.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:26] That's awesome. Awesome. So let's go all the way back to undergrad. And you said you were kind of like pre-med or is your family like my dad was a doctor? Is your family in medicine?

Cocrew: [00:02:34] No. You know what's funny about that? Like they didn't steer me any which way. It was just kind of something that as I looked at kind of what my options were as a kid, I was always like pretty competitive, I guess. And I knew I wanted something, like, kind of intense, something that would be stimulating. And I guess Doctor was just kind of the natural profile for something that I was looking for.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:59] Just wanted to, you know, work hundred hour weeks or, you know, do go through residency or whatever. Yeah.

Cocrew: [00:03:04] So exactly.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:07] Now.

Cocrew: [00:03:09] Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:10] You're kind of okay. So you're kind of going into freshman year with that in mind, but you kind of get a little bit exposed. You said you had landed some internships early on. Was it freshman summer? Was it sophomore summer that you had kind of your first finance internship? Or tell me about how that worked?

Cocrew: [00:03:25] Yeah. So like I think by the end of my freshman year, I was fully kind of in the camp of not wanting to be a doctor anymore. And after that I started looking for some internships and I didn't really have like a finance internship after my freshman year, but it was more like a business development role, like a large company in like the capital of, like where I'm from, like the downtown area where I'm from. And so it just kind of got my feet wet in terms of what like business corporate role might look like. Yeah, but then my sophomore year, sophomore summer, that's when I was able to land like a middle market banking sort of internship and it was pretty local near my hometown and so I guess smaller market but.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:16] Was able to do even but were you are like at that point taking a be declaring a major probably like saying okay I would do it finance but how did you even land that middle market role? Even the local regional one has a sophomore summer because I think that's from looking at your background, it seems like that probably was kind of the key internship that kind of set you up for the junior summer, right?

Cocrew: [00:04:39] Yeah. You know, I never thought about it that way just because it's been so long, but you're probably 100% right.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:44] Yeah. So, like, how did you get that sophomore summer internship? Was it networking? Was it friends of a friend? Like, how did that work?

Cocrew: [00:04:50] Yeah, it was 100% networking. Like I mentioned, it's like a much smaller market. So it was an easier task to just go on Google and figure out like what firms did investment banking in like this. Again, small market.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:06] It was like four firms.

Cocrew: [00:05:08] Yeah, yeah. Or like for firms that seemed even like legit enough to kind of reach out to and have like a meaningful experience. And so at that point I just like looked on the team page and fired off a few cold emails. And surprisingly, like, I got pretty high yield on all of those emails. Like, a lot of people were just willing to talk to me just because they weren't used to getting those types of inbounds. So I guess.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:32] What do you mean? So like, yeah, let's break that down a little bit. I think that's pretty interesting because oftentimes people will do like spray and pray approach, right? Were you kind of doing that like out looking outside the region or did you have to stay in the area?

Cocrew: [00:05:46] I think I just had a preference for staying in my hometown. Because I didn't really know how many more opportunities I'd have to, like, spend a summer at home again. Yeah, if I was gunning for, like, New York or San Francisco or whatever else. My junior year internship. Right. And so you already.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:05] Knew you wanted to go to, like, the big city for junior summer, and you were or you just thought that that was going to be needed. So you figured out, let's stay local?

Cocrew: [00:06:14] Yeah. I mean, I think ultimately I just kind of looked at the landscape and I did the same math I think everyone else does, which is like you go to a big bank, like the best that you can get that'll position you really well for like your next thing and so on. Yeah. And so, I mean, I think that's just how I thought about it as well, where, you know, everything leading up to that point was just positioning me really well for my recruiting process, my junior summer. Got it.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:42] Okay. So you sent out some cold emails. You said you pretty good yield. So how many emails did you actually send out to, like, bankers in the area?

Cocrew: [00:06:50] Yeah, I was I was kind of parallel processing that with kind of like the networking I was doing for my junior recruiting process as well.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:01] Because everything's so accelerated, right?

Cocrew: [00:07:03] Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. I would say I had like a networking process on the more aggressive side. I think in total I spoke to like over 100 people. You got on the phone with 100 people? Yeah. Or like near 100 people. It was definitely near 180 to 100. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I think, an accurate range.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:23] And so how many people did you have to reach out to? Either cold email or LinkedIn or whatever to get that many people on the phone?

Cocrew: [00:07:29] If it was like someone in the big cities like Bulge Bracket or Elite Boutique, those kinds of banks, all of those people included, it was probably like 506 hundred emails. It was a lot of emails.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:43] That's a pretty good yield, like over 10% yield.

Cocrew: [00:07:46] Yeah. Yeah, no, I.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:48] Think to an actual phone call, not even a response. That's really good. So how are how are you positioning yourself? Seems like you were getting a really good or were you making them like super tailored these emails?

Cocrew: [00:07:58] Yeah, somewhat. Like to the extent that I could, I think I also had a pretty early head start. So I think it was just a combination of like, you know, making it very clear that I wasn't there to waste anyone's time, that I had done some homework. And putting that all somewhat succinctly into an email asking for a 30 minute conversation, I think just made my profile kind of stand out.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:23] So you went ahead for you asked a specific set time, didn't say like ten, 15 minutes. You said 30 minutes.

Cocrew: [00:08:30] Like. Yeah, like a 20 minute conversation. Wait a minute.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:33] Yeah, I'm just curious. I'm always curious because like, that yield is really good. So I'm like, okay, what's the secret? You know? Yeah, I usually tell people, don't expect more than a 5% yield on like, even a response.

Cocrew: [00:08:43] Yeah. I mean, that's definitely what the base case should be, I think.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:46] So your GPA must been really high.

Cocrew: [00:08:49] That's that. That's partly why I hit the networking grind so hard. I think I took a bit of a hit coming off of, like my first year taking a bunch of STEM classes.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:01] So you had a lot of STEM, a lot of biology, a lot of pre-med. So your GPA wasn't great.

Cocrew: [00:09:06] It was not great. So did you lead with that at all or.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:09] Did you leave it out completely or was it in your resume?

Cocrew: [00:09:12] It was in my resume, usually not something that I volunteered, to be completely honest. But I think like what usually ended up happening was that I think I presented well enough on the phone to the point where by the time they got my resume, they didn't have as much like sticker shock when they saw the GPA.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:33] Got it. So you weren't actually leading, you weren't sending the resume. It was just purely like, hey, let's just chat. I've learned, you know, I know about blah, blah, blah, x, y, z bank. Like, how did you how did you draw connections or parallels or what when you said you did your homework and you demonstrated that, can you give an example like let's say you were emailing an elite boutique somewhere in New York, how would you show that you've done your homework?

Cocrew: [00:09:53] A lot of that is just kind of like whatever I could read off of Wall Street, Oasis or whatever other resources. Mm hmm. I think while I did go to what people would consider like a non-target, we had enough of an alumni presence for me to be able to, like, engage with people, get impressions of different banks, different groups and kind of lean on that. And I think a combination of just like literally going through any channel that I could, I had enough of like a surface level understanding of the landscape to be able to sound smart on it.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:25] Well, especially on the phone calls. But I mean, like the initial emails where you were, you were you actually writing something like that, saying something like, Hey, I've seen you guys recently did this deal, congrats. Or we're like, were you saying something like, Hey, I've heard your group is really strong and this doing a lot of blah blah or was it like that kind of tailored stuff?

Cocrew: [00:10:42] Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was like, for example, if it was like an elite boutique, I'd be sure to mention that like the really lean teams that I keep hearing about is something that's really interesting to me. It sounds like that's where you get a really strong junior experience, like deals that they've done. I'd mentioned that like this deal seemed cool, so it'd be interesting to hear your perspective on it, or if you know anyone that you can put me in touch with that can speak to it, that'd be great. Yeah. I think really just in terms of like overall networking approach, it's really just about like you got to do the work like it's like a volume game of like sending out as many emails as you can, getting the yield. But then it's also just not just using that conversation as that error, but to actually like learn something and aggregate kind of data points from these conversations to actually seem more informed going from one phone call to the next.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:42] Yeah, it's almost like whatever you learn on the first one, you can kind of leverage for the next person you speak with from that same firm is very easy to be like, Oh yeah, I spoke with Bob over whatever, blah blah. He mentioned this and get their perspective and then it seems like you're more part of the in-group, right?

Cocrew: [00:11:57] Yeah, 100%. And like, the one other thing that I'd mentioned is like being on the other side of this, it's very clear when someone either is uninterested or like they seem like they're going through the motions.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:09] They're going through the motions. Yeah.

Cocrew: [00:12:11] Yeah. And I'd much rather have, like, a conversation with someone who's trying to recruit and is actually being thoughtful about what their experience is going to be like. Because at that point, I know that they're actually interested and they want a very clear picture of what to expect before they actually start the job. And that's just a better conversation for both sides.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:31] Got it. Got it. So you kind of where basically you're able to land this this sophomore summer role, but you are also parallel kind of networking and recruiting for junior summer. So did you get like. With offers back to back, or how did that work?

Cocrew: [00:12:48] Oh, that would have been pretty cool. No, no, I didn't.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:52] You had to go into junior year with no offer for junior summer yet.

Cocrew: [00:12:56] Yeah, that's.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:57] Right. But now you had a banking internship on your resume. Did you actually get a good experience at that boutique or now?

Cocrew: [00:13:03] Yeah, it was decent considering that it was like a sophomore kind of internship. I think I got a pretty decent level of exposure and I got very lucky because they actually had somewhat of a formalized program for interns. And so I was, you know, very kind of lucky local type of situation where I was able to go through that program. But yeah, I went through that summer, was doing all the networking, was doing all the recruiting stuff, and I actually didn't get an offer for junior summer until like a few months after school had started. So I think it was like, which.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:43] Is how it used to be.

Cocrew: [00:13:45] Yeah, that used to be normal. Now I hear about the timelines now and I'm just like, it blows me away. I don't think I would have been prepared if I was working. A lot of.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:55] People aren't prepared. That's the thing is it's like they're not prepared. Like they're kind of prepared on the surface. Then you dig and you realize there's like, no actual knowledge there. So. So you're kind of going into your junior year. Are you nervous at this point? Are you thinking, okay, at least I have a good internship, I'm going to be fine. What's the thought process? And then how did you end up landing this internship at a bracket bank? Did you. Was it a resume drop on campus recruiting? Did you have to or is it just sort of like a because your school I won't say the school, but your school is. Yeah, it's not like a super target or anything, but there are a decent amount of alums. Right. So did you was it through alums? How did it how did end up going? And then tell me a little bit about the actual interviews.

Cocrew: [00:14:35] Yeah, for sure. If I was nervous, like absolutely. 100%. My school isn't one that just churns out like guaranteed 50 kids a year onto Wall Street. So there's a little bit of friction that I have to fight. And it was like pretty palpable going through the recruiting process. It very much felt like I had to make my own luck. And like if target recruiting takes place, after all the kind of core school recruiting is over, it's kind of ambiguous timing on top of all of that. So yeah, there's definitely a little bit of like nervousness, but I did feel like I had a strong profile. Yeah, I thought I had good experience and that I could talk to it. So in that aspect I felt prepared and I think my internship offer came together. After I had a few conversations with an alum at the bank, I ended up interning out for my junior year, not like a massive group of alumni, but he somehow miraculously remembered me being like someone he talked to very early on. And I guess he like me enough to ask for my resume and he pretty explicitly like. I remember the email that I got pretty explicitly said, Just send me your resume, I will make sure you get an interview. And so that was a vote of confidence. And I think as far as like my interview process went, I think this just kind of speaks to coming from a non-target school again, sorry.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:07] Can I interrupt you really quickly? So that groundwork you had put in from sophomore year just ended up paying off. It's like he liked he or she liked you and put in the good word. Fine, like saying, yeah, I'll get you an interview without you having to reach out again. Or you had reached out you reached out again early kind of junior year to get that.

Cocrew: [00:16:25] Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. A good point that's probably worth digging into. I, I had like an initial conversation with him early my sophomore year. Yeah. And have like maybe two more follow up calls over the course of the next 12 months.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:41] Oh, wow. So it's a lot every three or four every four months or so. You had kind of checked in and done some other calls. He was he trying to kind of help you along?

Cocrew: [00:16:48] Yeah, for sure. He was helpful at every point, and I think he just wanted to help kids from my school and he was just an engaged alum. Cool was also very aware of like how difficult the recruiting processes. Yeah. So he wanted to be helpful. And then finally what kind of the catalyst was. I had taken a trip to New York, kind of like on my own dime to go meet people that I'd been speaking on the phone with and him and I had a scheduled, like, coffee that he couldn't make and he felt bad about it. And so finally, just like, send me your resume and I'll make sure you're set up for an interview now. Yeah, that's kind of the series of events that.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:29] You're like, Hey, the coffee. It's easier on me, right? Not having to do the coffee here. Like, Yeah, that's fine. Just give me the interview.

Cocrew: [00:17:34] Oh, yeah. Sigh of relief for sure.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:36] Yeah. So, okay, so you're kind of, you know, you have at least this interview at a bulge bracket bank. Was it your only shot? Did you have any middle market bank in? Interviews kind of lined up. Any other build brackets?

Cocrew: [00:17:49] Yeah, I had a few other processes. I think by the time that process kicked up, I was near final round for like another middle market kind of banking gig in New York. Had a few other processes that were like early.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:07] Do you mind saying what bank the middle market was?

Cocrew: [00:18:10] I'd rather not.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:12] That's fine. Yeah.

Cocrew: [00:18:13] But, you know, I had that offer in hand, had a few others that were, like, early, but like first, second round, you can never tell where they're going to shake out. So it's not like I could really go in thinking that it was. I didn't take it very lightheartedly. You know, the process with Bracket Bank. But as far as the actual interview process, I would say like it was a reflection of just coming from like a non target. Again, like I think what I've heard from my friends who went through the same process of their kind of target schools was like they did like 30 minutes with an MD and they were like they had like an offer and like that was it. And it was like light on technicals, whatever. I had three rounds, the first of which was transaction walk through from my sophomore summer internship, which looking back on it seems a bit rigorous. And then second round was like 45 minute technical session with a VP. And then last round was a super day, which I think a few more steps involved there than like just having a 30 minute conversation.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:27] How many how many interviews do you have on your super day? I'm usually super days, even for target kids, I think is four to 4 to 10 interviews, something like that.

Cocrew: [00:19:36] Was it? Yeah, I didn't have that, thankfully.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:39] Yeah, no. And usually it's not that high, but anywhere from like 3 to 5 is pretty typical I think.

Cocrew: [00:19:44] Yeah, I would say the super day was pretty typical where I got in for like an hour and a half, I was out and it was pretty standardized.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:52] Okay. So you ended up getting the internship offer, accepting it. Was it for specific group? Was it did you feel like or is it a generalist? And then they were going to place you at the end of the summer. Like, what was the what did they communicate?

Cocrew: [00:20:07] Yeah, I think my offer was pretty typical of what you'd see from that bank and a lot of other bulge bracket banks, which is that I was a generalist and I basically had this call it like eight month window to network into a group for my internship. Basically the way that it works is like and it's well documented on so but the way that it worked for me was I had all this lag time out of my internship starting have. Conversations and the firm provided a full book of contacts by group. So I was able to reach out to people and analysts and associates generally know that this process happens just because they went through it themselves in some way. And so kind of similar to getting like networking calls in for recruiting, you basically repeat that same process for replacement. But I think the difference here is like the conversations are a bit more targeted. You're asking more about like the summer internship, about the culture at the group, about what you'll probably be working on, and just try to get a sense of what the group is like.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:22] Do you feel like you're actually able to accurately assess that from those conversations? Is it actually is it helpful or is it like more trying to get a feel like the personalities in the group.

Cocrew: [00:21:31] I think.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:34] Or is it more just like this popularity? It seems like a weird matching process. Like how come? How much can you are they? Or I guess better. Question Were the analysts forthcoming about like realities of the group?

Cocrew: [00:21:45] Like if it was like a Sweaty group depended on the group, like very much depended on.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:49] It. So some people but you didn't you were able to get gather some information that was helpful.

Cocrew: [00:21:54] Yeah, definitely. I think like at the end of the day, those conversations will give you like a very high level perspective on what the group is like, both in terms of culture and busyness. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:07] So like you also got to be careful what you're asking, right? You don't want to be like, hey, is it a lot of work hours and like you don't want it to reflect poorly on you either?

Cocrew: [00:22:14] Yeah, for sure.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:15] Because like, you're trying to get a full time offer. You want to be seen as like this intern who's like, just trying to figure out the weakest or the slowest group.

Cocrew: [00:22:23] Yeah, exactly. Try to game it. Yeah. No, not at all. Yeah. Again, I think it's just approaching it as if you are going through the recruiting process. Right. Very much have to approach it as if you are interviewing for the group that you're going to get placed into. I think that's just like the kind of rigor you need to have, especially when you're gunning for like some of the top groups out of bulge bracket bag. Because I think. Across the bulge bracket banks, you get a level deeper and there's a lot of variation amongst groups in terms of how strong they are, what deals they do, the culture you get. So to avoid some of that bad luck with within that variability, it it's a good idea to kind of have as many conversations as you can.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:11] Like avoid the bad luck of being placed with a group that has low deal flow and long hours.

Cocrew: [00:23:16] Yeah, yeah. We're just like, it's not a fit for you for any sort of reason.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:19] Okay, so you actually took the time to do all those. Like what would happen to you? I mean, is it expected of you to like I mean, how many people do you actually talk to through that whole process? Well, in those eight months and then when and then when do they actually when do they actually match it?

Cocrew: [00:23:35] Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't 80 to 100. So that's good news.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:39] Yeah. I hope not.

Cocrew: [00:23:40] Yeah. No, I think it was closer to like 20 to 25.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:44] That's a lot. That's still a lot.

Cocrew: [00:23:46] Yeah. But again, I think I started pretty early just because I was conscious of how competitive it might get. And I think ultimately I ended up at like my number three or four choice and most of that. Process is pretty concentrated in like the last month or two leading into the internship. Got it right before the summer.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:12] Like May nine.

Cocrew: [00:24:14] Yeah, exactly.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:15] And so how many did you have to rank? How many groups?

Cocrew: [00:24:20] I don't know if I can even remember, but.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:22] Ten or.

Cocrew: [00:24:23] 1505.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:25] So you ended up with like three or four. So it wasn't like.

Cocrew: [00:24:29] Yeah. No. So I rank them. The groups rank us as like an intern pool. And then it kind of goes through this HR black box where they match you. And I say in black box, because there have been plenty of situations where a group ranks someone first and vice versa, yet they end up in like a completely random group. There are some horror stories. That's amazing. Yeah, I got the black box.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:57] That's why we get some angry HR threads from time to time on TV. So for various.

Cocrew: [00:25:03] Reasons.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:04] Maybe that's why. So great. That's actually really helpful. Just to get a sense of like how it all how it all works. But so you get matched, you hear about it, you start kind of going in. What's your thought process in terms of kind of prepping for the summer or anything you did to get ready? Any kind of advice for the listeners that are kind of entering here in a similar boat?

Cocrew: [00:25:25] Yeah. I mean, I can only speak to like the experience that I had going into my group. I think I'm conscious that not every group kind of has this approach, but I joke that my group is very like intern friendly. Like there wasn't, you know, extremely high expectations for interns to be able to, like, whip out like an elbow model, like first day on the desk or you didn't get like tested or anything throughout. But with that being said, I don't think it hurts to just stay as sharp as you can on the technical stuff. Keep speaking to people to get a sense of what best practices are and to just be as effective as you can for like the nine weeks that you are on the desk. But I would very much I'm very much in the camp of recommending that you enjoy the lag time between school and the internship starting just because it's like almost all of the job you learn on the job.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:29] To the hour. The hours are tough for that summer.

Cocrew: [00:26:32] Oh, yeah. Brutal.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:34] Yeah. So were you working over 90 average hours or over 100?

Cocrew: [00:26:38] I would say on average it was probably 90. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:42] It was like my two years at Rothchild. Yeah.

Cocrew: [00:26:44] Yeah. There you go. But, yeah, I mean, obviously dipped below and above, depending on the week, but I would say I probably averaged out to 90.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:55] And as you kind of approach that, I guess you're going in, you're ready for it, right? You kind of knew what to expect. Any surprises like throughout through the summer? Anything where you had to turn it around, like to get an offer or were you like a pretty high performer throughout the summer?

Cocrew: [00:27:13] I think I generally got decent feedback, so I don't think there was any like point.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:20] Like stumbles out of the gate like where you just didn't know what to expect because it's hard. It's kind of your first real I guess you had had the internship prior, but like it's your first large internship, you can get lost. You know what I mean? Or like put with some random Oh.

Cocrew: [00:27:35] I made plenty of mistakes to be clear. Like, but like looking back on it and I probably made mistakes I would have drove me crazy was like the analyst checking network. But I think as an intern, what's important is like honestly, I think the most important quality is just like social awareness, a little bit like don't be a burden where you're like constantly pestering full time analysts and associates about your work, just recognizing that you're there for your own development. But like you also have to push Workstreams forward and you kind of have to be very conscious of like the most efficient and effective way to do that without, again, being annoying.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:18] Give an example of that. Like. So, like, let's say you get stuck somewhere. You're like, it might not be the best time to, like, approach straight if he's like in a fire drill.

Cocrew: [00:28:26] But like exactly.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:27] But tell me a little bit about like yeah, do you have an example of like how is an intern you would like manage that?

Cocrew: [00:28:35] Yeah, I think it's very visually apparent when someone's going through a fire drill, like, yeah, know, they're like tapping their foot, they're like locked into the screen. They're frantically typing. Like you can just kind of get a sense. Yeah, I always just kind of emailed before I walked over to anyone or like gave them a quick buzz. If it went to voicemail, then I'd give it like 30 minutes before walking over there. Yeah, it's just stuff like that. It's like really not rocket science, but, you know, a shocking number of kids, I think they get wrapped up in like this high kind of stress culture and they kind of lose sight of like this other person might very much be dealing with their own work, even though their intern is very focused on, like, the small piece of the project.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:22] Yeah, they're like, like, I can't deal with you right now. Like, they're like, you don't matter right now. Please, just, like, leave.

Cocrew: [00:29:28] Yeah, for sure. Like, in.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:29] Other ways is the best thing you could do right now.

Cocrew: [00:29:32] Yeah, exactly. I mean, look, I've worked with really great interns that were, like massive helps to me during my analyst years. But at the end of the day, like, they're college students and you know, the expectation isn't that they're just, again, handling the most critical pieces of work on any given deal. So it's just a little bit of it is just understanding like where you are in the entire workflow. And besides that, just having a really good attitude. Those two things just can go really far in your nine weeks, right?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:01] So you get the offer. It's party time all senior year. You're like, Wow, but I'm going to go back to that pretty intense work life situation. Right? So what's your thought process kind of knowing what's coming, given that you had a pretty rough summer, were you thinking, okay, I'm just gonna have a really great senior year and then just lock, walk down and look for exits? What was the thought process?

Cocrew: [00:30:25] Yeah, very much like a fun senior year. Definitely prioritize. Like seeing my friends. For like the last time in a while together. And, you know, just like going out into the local city that our campus was based in, like really, really took advantage of, like. Free time and personal time that I had in college, just because I knew that those days were quickly coming to an end. And I definitely did think about what I was going to do after banking. I think as you're kind of softly alluding to, after you go through it, it kind of gives you a realistic look inside. And it's not as cool maybe as what you thought it was when you were, like, recruiting.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:10] It wasn't. Wolf of Wall Street, what was it?

Cocrew: [00:31:13] Unfortunately, I have terrible news for podcast listeners. Yeah, yeah, I know. So I started thinking about what I wanted to do after, and I just didn't know it for a while. I didn't know if it was going to be like continuing to stay in banking or moving to private equity or whatever. And I struggled with it a lot and I actually sought out like a local private equity firm, like close to our campus actually, and did like a small kind of internship there, like part time for like 20 hours a week.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:44] And your senior year?

Cocrew: [00:31:45] My senior year, yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:46] So you really didn't slow down. Okay, you're because you're trying you're still searching a little bit like, hey, do I really want to go back and do this?

Cocrew: [00:31:52] Yeah, to be honest with you, I was so bored, like I just had I just had way too much time, and I was taking a pretty light course load, so I thought I might as well get, like, an answer to what I'm thinking about. Yeah. So I ended up doing that and that was actually like a phenomenal experience and I think it validated a lot of how I was thinking about my, my progression after banking so that.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:16] You think that that internship helped you and then recruiting later on.

Cocrew: [00:32:22] Honestly.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:22] No, no. Like it's thing you could talk to during, they'd be like, well, I always look towards private equity.

Cocrew: [00:32:28] Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think we're getting there. But like the private equity recruiting experience, at least for me, was just so hyper focused on like two or three big things. And like, if you couldn't speak to those big things, then you're done. Or if you didn't hit certain criteria that they use as like immediate filters, you're done.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:49] Can we talk about that? Absolutely. So, yeah, let's talk about. So you're basically you know, you start your job, you're working probably crazy hours again and you kind of approaching. I'm trying to think when 2018 you started. So I'm trying to think of like when PE recruiting kicked off it was at the year was like insanely early like.

Cocrew: [00:33:06] November yeah it was Halloween my year. I remember.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:10] So Halloween's even worse, right? So Halloween. So it's almost a full two years before you would start. So where did you get any looks? Were you I mean, you're at a bulge bracket bank. You're you had probably not even done a AACo's a deal yet. Did you get any looks.

Cocrew: [00:33:27] Yeah. So you know there's that first on second period right there where, you know, the bigger private equity firms kick off the recruiting and they try to hire, like, half their class in two weeks. Yeah. So I got a call the first night, 2 a.m., saying that I had an interview with one of the large megaphones. They wanted me in 6 hours after that call, like 8 a.m. and I'm like, No, it's going to have to be later. And then I guess they were accommodating enough to like, let me come in like at noon. But I did that interview, got smoked, realized that I wasn't ready, and then pretty much sat out for the rest of that recruiting process.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:09] Oh, I love that. Let's talk about that. It's so interesting.

Cocrew: [00:34:13] You get to.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:13] Call it 2:00 AM. So had you before going to bed, did you know that it had kicked off?

Cocrew: [00:34:18] I did, yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:19] And you had you been talking to recruiters prior to that?

Cocrew: [00:34:22] I had been, yeah. I have been talking to head hunters who are pretty much gatekeepers.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:28] Yeah, but did you had you, like, reached out to them or they. Had they been reaching out to you?

Cocrew: [00:34:31] Getting they've been reaching out to me. I think I think, like, if you're a bracket analyst, you generally have the benefit of having, like, all these head hunters reach out to you and set up meetings pretty proactively. Yeah. And so your.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:44] Goal was you were like, I'm going to try it.

Cocrew: [00:34:47] Yeah. I knew, generally speaking, that I didn't want to go to a megaphone, just it seemed like very much focused on like the financial engineering side of things. I knew I wanted to get a little bit closer to the operations of the business and just have a little bit more of a broader skill set than an extension of the one that I was going to be picking up in banking. So that was my thought process in terms of what I wanted.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:14] Did you communicate that to them?

Cocrew: [00:35:16] I did. I think I was pretty firm.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:18] But they still but a megaphone still ended up calling you at 2 a.m..

Cocrew: [00:35:21] Yeah, I think that's just a reflection of the process. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:26] So you get called there, like get in at 8 a.m., you're like, no, I'll. And then how did that conversation go? How do you even say no? Isn't it like they tell you when to jump and you say How high? And you just go as soon as like they're ready or we'll give you the confidence to say no, they're.

Cocrew: [00:35:41] Well, it was just like it's not necessarily something that I was excited about. I mean, great opportunity, but I don't know if it was the right fit for me, so I didn't feel very compelled to.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:52] Yeah, you were just like, Look, I'll do it. But I don't, you know.

Cocrew: [00:35:56] Yeah. And part of part of the logistical weirdness here is like, I want to squeeze in, like, a model test that morning before I actually did the real thing.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:06] To be very candid, you knew you were going to get a modelling test. Yeah. And so.

Cocrew: [00:36:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:12] What about. So. So you said they're hyper focused on 2 to 3 things. Can you. So let's actually. No, let's go keep this story going. So you're basically like you get up that morning, you run through a modelling test. You this is like a one hour, three hour modelling test. What were you doing?

Cocrew: [00:36:29] I think to our mobile. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:32] So somewhat detailed, but not insane. You get through that. Are you feeling good at this point?

Cocrew: [00:36:39] No, I thought the modelling test was hard. I think like I hadn't really done like an M&A deal at that point yet. And this particular model had like a really detailed revenue build. Like the rest of the model is super easy. Well, like just really weird like source files where you have to run like a bunch of like crazy index matches and like some ifs, which like now it's like in everyday cadence that I do these things. But you know, sitting as like a recently graduated 22 year old without having any real deal modeling experience, you know, I knew that it didn't go very well just because, like, I looked at my revenue numbers and they didn't make sense.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:18] Right. Okay. So that you basically went in thinking, okay, I'll give it a shot. So you went in was the format of this of this mega fund kind of interview you went in and they like was it behavioural at first. Did they just immediately threw you to the modelling test.

Cocrew: [00:37:30] Oh yeah, not at all. They sat me in like a waiting room, they put me in like a room with five other computers and people. They timed us all at the same time. We went back to the waiting room and then they came in and told me that I was done and I left. And that was the entire interview.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:48] That was it. It was basically like you didn't do the modeling test or was it the modeling test similar to the one you had practiced on that morning?

Cocrew: [00:37:56] Yeah. I mean, it was really just like this very specific part of the model that I just I didn't know how to do. Like Balbo stuff was fine, like that's what I'd been practicing, but it was literally just like this weird source file that you had to scrub to get your revenue numbers, and that kind of drove the rest of the model.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:14] There's more data. Data analytics or data kind of source sorting.

Cocrew: [00:38:19] Exactly.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:20] Got it. And then the rest of the parts was easy because like, once you get the revenue numbers, it just flows and sources and usage and all that good stuff. So that kind of probably left a certain taste in your mouth. That's your first impression of Welcome to private equity recruiting. So you kind of go back, you said, okay, I'm bowing out. You tell the recruiters, not this year kind of thing.

Cocrew: [00:38:42] I basically tell them that I'm open, but I at that point start getting a lot more strict with myself in terms of the interviews that I take, because ultimately I didn't want that experience to go down again where I just kind of show up or model to get dinged and then I'm out. And I think at that point.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:08] What was your what was your fear like? Because you could think, oh, it's great reps, but your fear was like, okay, I'm going to burn through my opportunities kind of thing.

Cocrew: [00:39:14] Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like if these headhunters keep getting negative feedback on my modeling tests, then that's just a bridge I burn, right?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:22] Right. They're going to suddenly not see you as playable.

Cocrew: [00:39:26] Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that was the fear, I would say. But I also had had confidence in myself as a candidate. So I told them like, look, this is all I'll take in terms of like the kinds of opportunities. So being strict in that regard. And then just at the same time I had actually got put on my first major deal and that was extremely busy.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:49] Yeah, you're just like, forget that.

Cocrew: [00:39:51] Yeah, exactly. I can't even stay awake. Exactly. So I started sprinting on, like, real work for like the next two months or so. And then once I started being able to get my head out of water, started taking a few more interviews.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:09] Got it. Okay. And had you done more reps like with the modeling and all that stuff.

Cocrew: [00:40:13] At that point? Yeah, I guess like in the background I'd been practicing, like we.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:17] Should have put you through one of our boot camps. You would find.

Cocrew: [00:40:19] Yeah, I probably would have gotten an offer sooner. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:23] It'll plug in there. So, yeah, it's funny, we had these interview boot camps. We do like 8 hours of insane, intense, like cases and modeling. It will be modeling.

Cocrew: [00:40:34] Probably super.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:34] Helpful. It is. I guess it gets them kind of like a taste of like, oh, I need to go study a lot more. People realize like, you've got to be able to do this or you're not going to make it to the other side. So you're kind of you're it sounds like you kind of start it back up. Even though it was off cycle, it wasn't like you didn't wait a whole year.

Cocrew: [00:40:54] No. Just because I didn't feel like I was at that big of a disadvantage. Like I was pretty conscious that it was like one bad model test and like right in the time between, like, I had gotten some pretty meaningful deal experience. Yeah, it was like a pretty brutal first deal and like, I didn't feel like I was ill prepared to go through the process again.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:15] Okay, great. So you kind of started talking to recruiters say I'm ready again, even though a lot had already hired, there are still middle market funds out there and whatnot. And so then tell me about that. Did you go through a lot of other processes or what's it like one and done on the next one?

Cocrew: [00:41:29] Oh, I wish it was one and done. That would have saved me a lot of stress. No, I think I had gone through maybe eight more additional.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:37] Interviews, more processes.

Cocrew: [00:41:39] Yeah, but not like full processes. Like I'd gotten dinged for some reason or another, or like I got the model wrong or whatever other reason. I think it just finally took me to like four or five months after that period to actually find something that worked.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:58] Yeah. And so tell me a little bit about like the, the mix of like those eight or so kind of interviews where like we're half did half a modeling test, did most have modeling tests or.

Cocrew: [00:42:08] Did I think all of them? Did all of them?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:10] That's surprising because how about cases like specific cases? Was it like where they did you have to have anything where you had to go in and defend. You're like, is this a good deal, bad deal kind of thing after the test?

Cocrew: [00:42:21] Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's actually a good distinction. It was either a model or a case study or case.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:25] But it was some sort of like work product here but now.

Cocrew: [00:42:28] Yeah, exactly. But it was very rarely the case where like. I would have a case study without some sort of model supplementing that. And I think it just comes down to like the nature of what I was interviewing for. Like, I was pretty focused on LBO buyout, and I think that just tends to have more kind of quantitative checks during that interview process.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:52] Yeah, fair enough. So you're basically going through this and tell me, like, biggest surprise because like, were you getting better as you went through it? Were you having more time to study? And is that why you landed one or was it just the right fit came along and you hit the modeling. You got the modeling test. Right. And what do you feel like was the final kind of reason?

Cocrew: [00:43:13] I think I think it's a combination of all of those things and I think all of those things compound on each other. Yeah, I think honestly, though, the biggest driver for me was that I was getting very real deal experience at my bank and so you could.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:28] Talk to it in interviews. Make your interviews stronger.

Cocrew: [00:43:31] Yeah, for sure. Like it was getting to a point where, like, I just knew this deal, like, stone cold and I could speak to, like, very small details of it, the nuances in the model. And I think, like, when it came down to interviews, I sort of. I'd like understood what were kind of the repeating questions and like the questions that I should expect. And so even if I got dinged somewhere, I would go back through, make sure that I could answer the question that didn't go so well for like the next process. But I will say, like, I honestly, I don't feel as though I got dinged for any particular reason sometimes. I think often these processes are like so competitive, they just kind of take who they like or they take who they think will accept the offer.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:23] Or they take kids from the target schools that they went to.

Cocrew: [00:44:26] A little bit. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:27] Honestly, there's a little bit of that still because it's like you can choose from whomever. There's so many good candidates.

Cocrew: [00:44:33] Like, yeah, for sure.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:36] There's a little bit of that. And by the way, was your GPA higher by the time you graduated?

Cocrew: [00:44:39] Yeah, thank God. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:42] That to say the another uphill battle is probably still look at it. So you're kind of you get the offer, you kind of finish out your second year, right. To get to get the bonus and kind of finish your two years. Is that is that how it went? Yep, that's right. And then how was the transition to be for you? Was it was it tough? Was it was it to a much smaller group or team? And how was that transition? Was it something that was easy for you or hard for me? It was hard.

Cocrew: [00:45:10] Yeah. I mean, the rampant P is a lot larger, I would say then the one in banking where I think especially coming from a bulge bracket bank, you have to get used to the lean deal team and understand that you are entirely accountable for like work product. So that was like a huge adjustment. And just like the level of intensity where I worked at a fund after my banking program where it wasn't flat per se, but like everyone on the deal team was expected to contribute and be vocal and learning to have an opinion and then voicing it is actually not like a natural skill.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:45:54] Yeah. Especially out of like a bank where you're told like when you go to the bathroom, basically, like going from like that happened to me. I mean, I went from like a place where I literally was working 9800 hour weeks and was just like I was a machine right in like a cog. And then you go out and then you're completely like, just here, like, go, go work with these portfolio companies, go get this deal process done. And you're just like, Wait a second, what am I doing?

Cocrew: [00:46:19] Yeah. And I think that speaks to kind of the training programs that a lot of like private equity firms or lack thereof.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:26] And like they're starting they're starting to roll them out. We're actually going to we're going to be selling them we this summer coming up. We're already have one close to being done. It's private equity associate trainee. Oh, that's huge. Yeah. Yeah. It's just such a big need right now, especially since they're like they're getting they're getting associates. Number one, they're complaining that the associates are worse than they've ever been just because they're like hiring to hire people so early in the process.

Cocrew: [00:46:51] But then they're hiring like a bunch of covert analysts. They're, you know, just like kids who have never seen the inside of an office building. Exactly. Exactly, like gritted through.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:01] And a lot of them are starting analyst programs where the kids have no experience, no professional experience.

Cocrew: [00:47:06] Yeah, yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:08] Yeah. There's a need there. So. Yeah, but interesting. So you're there. You're at your first place for you didn't stay like a full two years or anything. Is there a reason you decided to move in your new place or in particular?

Cocrew: [00:47:21] Yeah, for sure. I think ultimately so. A little bit of context for the prior role. I was in a non New York City location for that first gig.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:30] Yeah. Just so you don't feel any like I'm putting pressure. I got fired from my first private equity kick within four months. So, yeah, let's say you got fired. I don't know what happened in your thing. I mean, I ended up finding out later on that it was, you know, it went from like 20 to down to four investment professionals. And I think I was just the last in first out kind of thing like.

Cocrew: [00:47:49] Yeah, yeah thing.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:52] But yeah, a lot of people think p you reach the, the, the whole, the Holy Grail or you're, you're the grass is, the grass is greener type of thing where you're celebrating, yeah, you've reached like this great thing and it's not always like that. It can be pretty tough places to work. And not always the most stable either.

Cocrew: [00:48:12] Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think there are a few drivers for my decision, the first of which would be I was in a non New York City location and then I think after giving it like an honest try for like six months or so, I knew that I wanted to be back in New York. That was, I think by far the biggest driver. And then career wise, I was at a sector focused fund and I thought the sector was fine and I did it because that's where I was placed in banking. And then that lent itself to recruiting into this group. Private equity? Well, I think ultimately I wanted to transition into like an industry or a vertical that I could see myself in for a longer period of time than just two years. And so I think a combination of those two things made me kind of take back up the recruiting train again. And truth be told, I was actually pretty open to like non finance roles as well. So thinking about startups and cool kind of strategy kind of roles and stuff like that, but ultimately didn't really find a fit there. And then with very good timing, this opportunity with my current fund came out and I had some very, very long conversations with the team here. I felt like I really did my diligence more so than when I went through the private equity recruiting process the first time, just because I didn't want to repeat a second time. If you. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:49:47] You don't want to jump, jump, jump. Yeah, that's the thing is like if you move quickly once you can't do it again, you're kind of stuck for a while, for at least a couple of years.

Cocrew: [00:49:56] Exactly. So I was I really took my time, really made sure that this was potentially a team that I'd be happy working with. And ultimately moved into what I would call a flexible mandate technology fund. And so far, it's been fantastic. I've been here for nearly a year now and yeah, so far so good.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:50:16] Awesome, man. That's great. I love this story. It's a happy ending.

Cocrew: [00:50:20] Yes. Yeah, it took a while to get there, but you got that? Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:50:24] No, that's great. So I think for I mean, some good lessons here. Any any kind of before we call it, any final words of wisdom, you'd you'd kind of share with some of the listeners in terms of looking back at your story or kind of your path.

Cocrew: [00:50:37] Yeah, I'd call it like underrated advice, which is at the end of the day, you've got to do what you want, not what you think you have to do. I feel like, especially in finance, like there's tremendous pressure from kind of every angle to kind of get the next job or go into a certain group or whatever else. I think most people find is that not only are they unhappy doing that, but it reduces their longevity in in those roles and they either burn out quicker or like, you know, they just don't have the motivation that they had before they started that process. And I think ultimately the reason why I've been able to keep up a lot of my energy is because, like, you know, I've generally been lucky enough to be in places where I've thought I've had a good fit, and whenever I felt otherwise, I left. And I'm very conscious that there's a lot of luck involved with that progression. But I think, again, like in terms of like playing the long game, that's just sort of what you have to do.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:47] It's great. I love it. We'll end it there. Thanks so much for sharing your story.

Cocrew: [00:51:50] Yeah, no problem. Thank you for having me.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:51] And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street, Oasis. And till next time.

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