E211: Targeting Smaller Firms in Recruiting | Weekly Intern Meetup #11
Another interesting chat with our intern group.
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WSO Podcast Episode 211 Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief Monkey. And this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me as I talk to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. Another interesting chat with the interns. If you're interested in applying to the internship, please check out the show notes. There's a link right there. Enjoy.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:38] Welcome to, I.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:39] Think the 12th or 11th or so. W So Weekly Intern chat. It is July 8th, 2022. So are. Firmly in the summer. Planted right in the middle. Wanted it to open it up as usual for the group to ask any questions they have about specifically the internship. And then we'll move on to specific career related interview networking type of questions. Hey, Harvey. Hi, Tony. Good to see you again. And so I guess we can start off with just the internship based questions we got about a group of 20 right now. So it's a little light. Usually we're up to around 40, but. Welcome to everybody. So any questions to start off about the internship, any I don't know if some of you have started or are going to be starting soon. Any any questions that any of you have around how to get started or you started and you have questions around the specific articles you're working on or anything like that. No. Is that the first time in 11 weeks? Are we doing a better job, Nabil, at explaining.
Nabil: [00:01:50] Explaining things? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. If you guys have any questions, go ahead.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:01] And that that can be for the editors as well. I know you're doing a great job keeping up on the editors. Thank you for that. Yeah. Anything else. So let's talk about career oriented stuff. Anybody have questions around challenges they're facing in recruiting? I'll try to be as helpful as I can for geographies outside the US and Nabil will be try to be helpful for regions he knows better. But anything that you guys are struggling with, Amy anything are being a. I know in the past we've done resume reviews. Do you want us to bring that back for next week so we can kind of do more of those and definitely. You like that, Paul?
Intern 1: [00:02:46] Okay. Yep.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:47] All right. We'll do that for for next week, then. Today. Always enthusiastic, but the resume reviews. So, question, has anybody. Oh, cold emails. You want to talk about that part? Okay. How to do cold emails for smaller firms. So you mean when you're emailing a smaller firm how to message them? So I.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:11] Think.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:12] The size of the firm shouldn't matter too much. I think it's more around the level of the person that's that you're emailing. So if you're doing a cold email, usually what I like to do is try and find some commonalities. So when you're doing a filter or let's say on LinkedIn and you're trying to figure out what you want to say to somebody, usually you're doing a filter based on some sort of commonality that you have. So I'll give you an example. So let's say you are into cricket. Maybe you could find other people who played cricket during during uni and you want to make that connection. You can say, Hey, I noticed that you played here. I played here. You know, I was wondering if we could hop on a phone for 5 minutes to just understand a little bit more about XYZ firm and how you guys do business. And he says how to find an email of recruiters of small firms and boutique as some of their some some of their own employees in the head know recruiters or HR are. Um. It's a good question, Annie. I think. Oftentimes there aren't even recruiters for these small firms. Sometimes they just post the jobs directly to LinkedIn jobs. I still would recommend not just applying to the jobs on LinkedIn. I would recommend reaching out to the analysts and the associates and letting them know that you apply and. Or even prior.
Intern 2: [00:04:41] Like you want to apply. There is no such links or anything upon the website or even on LinkedIn. Usually if it's on LinkedIn, they just put in the head people. And there sometimes in the BIOS profiles, they don't even get their emails or anything. So usually the first step for me is I go for LinkedIn, but if there's like nothing else, then you have to sort of skip the firm also.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:08] Yeah, I would recommend using the company database for email format because I think email is much more powerful if you can get it into what I call like an email reminder cycle. So I use an extension called Right Inbox. Have you heard of Write Inbox or like Boomerang?
Intern 2: [00:05:25] No.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:26] So that's an extension for Gmail, which allows you to easily set reminders for yourself. So if there's no response, it just bumps to the back to top of your inbox again. And it sounds simple and easy, but it's actually an amazing tool to help make sure nothing falls through the cracks. So although I'm not inbox zero, I do not. I don't let things fall through the cracks very often because if things aren't done or if things are yet to be followed up on, or if I've sent an email hoping for a response back, I'm always putting a reminder on it for for it to pop back up in my inbox if I have a response back. And so for networking, this is super valuable because you can put like a three week reminder on it, a six week reminder on and a two week reminder on it. You can set emails to be sent out at certain times. I think Outlook has some of these features, but you can send it instead of like, let's say you're working at 1 a.m., you need to send an email, then you can send it out the next morning, say at like 6 a.m. to make it. One of the first things they see in their inbox and potentially you can be a little bit more strategic around the delivery time of your emails to their inbox to hopefully get it increase your response rate.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:38] Usually I think early mornings are good or even later after after the workday is over. That's what I usually recommend. But I would say that. You try to find the email format. And so like we have over 5000 firms in the company database, you can go in there and look for the email format and then try to find their emails. You'll get a lot of bounce backs, but you can also use a type typist hunter, use a company 100 to try and find emails and see if it's a valid email. So if you have like, say, the name John Smith, you know, when I say email form, I mean, is it Jay Smith? Is it John Smith? Is it Smith, Jay? Who knows? Sometimes it's odd, but knowing that will get you pretty far. We're getting more people, more stragglers coming in late. I'm happy to see that I'm almost up to 30. But yeah, the question was around specifically cold emails and how do you get in touch with find the recruiters or the emails or the contacts of people at small firms, because oftentimes that is hard to find. So, Andy, when you said you're using LinkedIn, I assume you're using like emails or you just connect your requesting them with a little message in their email.
Intern 2: [00:07:58] I would sometimes send in emails. Sometimes they just don't care.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:05] Oh, most of the time they won't care. Yeah. Most of the time they don't care. I don't take that personally. I think 80 if you're getting more than like a 10% response rate, that's really good. I think if you're getting less than a 5% response rate, you might want to look at like how your how you're targeting.
Intern 2: [00:08:23] It becomes like you went to their websites the most just don't have their emails down. And I go directly to LinkedIn. Yeah, so that's it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:36] Have you done connection requests?
Intern 2: [00:08:38] Oh, yeah. I just send it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:42] You send an email, but to have you try to connect your request because once you're connected to them, you can get their email, right?
Intern 2: [00:08:47] Yeah, I do. Most of their emails are actually personal. It's it's a bit. I laughed. I laughed a bit like I looked at him. It's a Gmail account.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:00] But that's okay. If that's what they had up on their LinkedIn, I wouldn't be afraid to to email that.
Intern 2: [00:09:06] Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:07] Because oftentimes I'll say, Hey, don't email me here. They'll correct you.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:10] If they're not.
Intern 2: [00:09:11] But yeah.
Intern 2: [00:09:12] I actually emailed them on their personal as well. Good. I like it. Really? Find out about the form. I would just say, you know, maybe try personal. Who knows.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:27] Yeah. And so has that worked for you at all? And can you give a little more background about your your year school or situation so we can.
Intern 2: [00:09:35] Give it context? I'm a rising sophomore majoring in finance, Upper college 2025.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:44] Awesome. Awesome. Your timing is great. Rising sophomore. It's like, good time for you. Have you heard of Monkey Dominion's my podcast.
Intern 2: [00:09:55] No.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:56] You should go to YouTube and watch all the advice I gave to Grace. It's all recorded. Grace is at Fordham, so right near you. And she started doing all the networking and stuff freshman year, late freshman year through sophomore year, and you'll be able to see all the dividends it paid.
Intern 2: [00:10:14] I yeah, I just now I'm looking at it. I'm more of a now realizing I'm networking a bit. I mean, I'm networking mostly correct but I just more of how do I explain like I feeling lazy. Oh, I just put it in the personal email. That's it. I should hurry up and like, number it. Like,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:31] What do you mean by the number?
Intern 2: [00:10:38] Like the emails you sent as much as possible. Oh.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:42] You mean, Increasing it.
Intern 2: Yeah. Yeah. Basically I would just say yeah, it's one and done you've got is is where her personal email that's I mean Yeah yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:53] I mean it should be in terms of volume if you think, if you think of LinkedIn as a connection request if you're if you do like a filter on LinkedIn specifically around let's say a specific for a school like alumni, So you put in Baruch, look at anybody who's worked in finance at.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:11] Baruch.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:11] And you just start connection request all of them like, Hey, I'm a rising sophomore at Baruch, I'd love to connect and maybe touch base sometime in the future, some time to just learn more about your career. Something as simple as that. It'd be great to chat. You do that for number one for.
Intern 2: [00:11:30] All of them. However, don't allow emails. That's a bad part.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:34] The connection requests send that message in the connection request.
Intern 2: [00:11:36] Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't send the whole I couldn't really send the whole thing there, the character like it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:43] Should it be longer than that. That's literally what I just said. That that's all you need to get the connection request. It should be like. Hi, my name is Annie. I'm a rising sophomore at Baruch. I love to connect with you and potentially hop on the phone sometime in the future to learn more about more about your career. Either way. Wishing you the best. Annie. It's all you have to say. Like literally that little tiny paragraph just to get the connection. And then. When you send that in, then if they connect with you, then you have their email, then you move it to email. You have a right inbox or boomerang to help remind you if they don't follow up. So in three or four weeks or six weeks, you're following up with them to show persistence, to show respect. You're waiting enough time to give them respect and time to respond back. But then again, I would be cautious to give them a full book in bio of yourself. It should be really short. They don't really care, to be honest. Unless they see something in themselves.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:42] See you and themselves. So it's like you should try to just make a quick tie to them. Give them the little intro of like, who you are. Sophomore Majoring in finance at Baruch. I noticed that you work at debt in this thing and I'd love to learn more. Is there sometime in the next few weeks that we might be able to hop on the phone for 5 to 10 minutes or 10 to 15 minutes to so I can ask you a few questions? Question Mark, thanks so much either way. Annie And then three weeks later, you fill up, maybe like just following up on this. I'm not sure if you're super. I understand if you're super busy, can't. But just wanted to make sure you didn't slip through the cracks. Something that casual shows your normal person, show that you're relatable, but you're confident enough to ask for the call and get on those phone calls, Start establishing those relationships, I think is really important. Does that make sense? And it's hard. You're like, just not even a sophomore.
Intern 2: [00:13:37] You know I'm going to suck more.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:39] You're going to suffer here. It's very hard to do that with professionals. But the people who are able to do it and get good at those phone calls, number one, get the phone calls because they reach out to 500 people. So they get the 10 to 20 foot phone calls. Number two, be comfortable enough on the phone calls eventually, like you're going to be bad in the first few phone calls because you're going be super nervous. But you need to have them, right? Better to have them. It's actually going to make you a better interviewer to all these calls.
Intern 2: [00:14:06] Yeah. So hopefully I. I mean, for a network though, now, I mean, I've got about a bit over 500 connections on LinkedIn overall for almost everything. That's all I have as of now. But like, all I can say is. Yeah. In terms of big firms. That's the number of small firms. I have no idea.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:34] Yeah. Yeah, I would. I would start filtering by, like, things that are relevant to you. So Baruch is one. Right. Then I would look at other small maybe look at Fordham alum because there's kind of a connection. Baruch Fordham. Like you're both in New York, right? You can look for any sort of kind of even if it's a semi weak connection to make a connection with that person. I don't know what your hobbies are. I don't know if there's a way to find out. Let's say you.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:56] Loved.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:59] Making this up, curling like some weird random Olympic sport. You could find people who are in finance that happen to be former Olympic curlers or whatever, you know, it's like a total random example. But like that, those types of connections where if you're able to kind of show that you're passionate. Say you love fishing, you know, that type of stuff, I think can go a lot further in terms of developing a real friendship and a real connection with somebody and then pulling for you to get you an interview.
Intern 1: [00:15:27] Good luck. Yeah. Quick question.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:29] Paul, go ahead.
Intern 1: [00:15:31] Sorry. One of them. The first one is like, do you think it really matters or fears? Linkedin is not super updated, like I have nothing online. So when I just outreached people, I just attach my resume instead and send a note. But yeah, I just feel like I don't like having all my experience and all my stuff on there for everyone to see.
Intern 1: [00:15:58] I just think it's kind of weird.
Intern 1: [00:15:59] Like, I'd.
Intern 1: [00:15:59] Rather just keep my head down, you know, that.
Intern 1: [00:16:01] Type of thing. So do you think it's like a disadvantage to not have.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:06] Yeah, I think it's a disadvantage.
Intern 1: [00:16:08] Just to not have all your stuff.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:11] People can't learn about you, and people are going to want to stalk you if you're reaching out to them. Cold, especially. Before you decide whether to actually have a conversation with you, it doesn't mean you need to go crazy on it and be like, Oh, I want to thank everyone in my.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:24] Mother for helping me to.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:25] Get this to eat to this weekend.
Intern 1: [00:16:28] I'm more than excited.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:29] Yeah, you don't have to do that. You can literally not even have bullets on there, but at least have some like school. This maybe show that you join a few of the associations that are relevant. Whatever. It doesn't have to be crazy, but an important one is a smiling, smiling face. A friendly, smiling face on there I think is important to show. Somewhat professional shots you're not like. So they look like you're presentable because that matters. One of these jobs. So yeah, I do think it's a disadvantage.
Intern 1: [00:16:58] Yeah. Pretty much all I have is the profile picture. Or like, I would have a little.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:04] More like, I think you should, you know, have your school.
Intern 1: [00:17:05] There. No.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:07] No. Internships, nothing.
Intern 1: [00:17:09] No, it's all on the resume.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:12] I would take the hour it takes to get it up there. Yeah, especially now you have the internship up there.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:20] To help you, and.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:21] Then it's going to help you.
Intern 1: [00:17:23] And then also, like, I got super lucky with an outreach. Like, I talked to a managing director at a hedge fund today, but I feel like it was just one of the more awkward networking calls I've had. I wasn't necessarily nervous. It's just like.
Intern 1: [00:17:43] Take like three calls.
Intern 1: [00:17:44] In the middle of it and I'll just lose my flow. So, I mean.
Intern 1: [00:17:49] I just don't think I.
Intern 1: [00:17:50] Want that Well, and I don't even know if I should be sending like the follow up email. I don't know. What do you think? Or like the follow up text?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:01] Yeah, I would just say thanks so much for taking the time out of your busy day. I really appreciate you sharing some perspective on X, Y, Z. I think just that's the courteous thing to do, just.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:09] A short.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:10] Because you never know. You may think you bombed it, you're horrible, but like they may give you a lot more slack than you think knowing how young you are.
Intern 1: [00:18:17] Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:18] So don't think like, oh my gosh, that was horrible. So awkward. And it like that's also on the professional to make it less awkward. So who knows, maybe they're awkward. You know what I mean?
Intern 1: [00:18:29] No, I don't think so.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:32] But it's okay. And the other thing is, like, you're still in a learning phase. Maybe you're just weren't ready for that level of call.
Intern 1: [00:18:38] Yeah, probably.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:39] Like even bankers, even bankers who've been doing two years of banking can, like flub on those calls and like, not know what to ask or they ask stupid questions.
Intern 1: [00:18:46] Yeah, that's really dumb questions. So like when I'm on a call on an analyst, like it's always it's just like laughing the whole time. Super easy. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:56] And so that's good. One thing I'll caution you about the laughing super easy is they the analysts may enjoy talking to you, but they may be less confident about referring to you if you're too much of a joker. So just be careful.
Intern 1: [00:19:07] Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:09] Especially if you're not from a target school already. And then like, if you're sharing laughs about, like, something's good, that's that's cool. Like in terms of, like, shared stuff and all that. Yeah, go for it. Just be careful about that because, like, even, like when I take if I've taken networking pills, like, you may laugh with somebody, but then you're like, Oh, I don't know if I want to put them in front of my MD. Are they going to make me look bad? Yeah, I tried.
Intern 1: [00:19:30] Yeah, I tried. To test the waters first, like I was talking to someone on the credit trading desk for my internship next year on the investment grade side, and then we bonded pretty well. And he's going to connect me with like a director on the desk and an analyst on high yield and stuff. So yeah, I'm pretty excited.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:49] So, I mean, it sounds like you're you're going to win some, you're going to lose some, you're going to be awkward and some some are just not going to connect with them. That's okay. So just don't feel don't feel bad about that. Just keep going, man. Like, it's just one call. Just one person.
Intern 1: [00:20:02] It would have been super dope, though, if you like. I could have asked for like a spring internship or something at the hedge fund.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:11] Yeah. So, I mean, it's just it's just a good lesson of just trying to be a knowledgeable as possible. I think that's where like a lot of the free resources on show in terms of just reading and knowledge and knowing the right types of questions to ask. So like you understand the difference between like a macro hedge fund versus like a pod structure versus this structure and being able to kind of ask those more nuanced questions.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:32] Will.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:33] Kind of impress them more. But that takes time. You got to, like, have time to read and learn.
Intern 1: [00:20:39] I'm still learning a lot about bonds and investment grade versus high yield and stuff like that, so I'm definitely asking some dumb questions for now. It's okay.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:50] That's okay. Cool, man, I wouldn't let it get to you. So I think you had your hand up.
Intern 3: [00:20:57] I've asked. How are you?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:58] How you. Been?
Intern 3: [00:20:58] Good to see you again. I've been good. It's been a long week at work, but it's good to see. See through to the weekend. Yeah. So I had one question about Big for Deal advisory. So that might work. The opposite size. We've been doing a lot of deed with KPMG, and I was also looking at emerging market tables. So I'm from Ireland and so normally our group would be the top advisor in our country, but the last two years Deloitte and KPMG have been topping it. So I was I was kind of looking into it and then I was asking some of my colleagues together, but we're not really sure about that because how much of that is transaction services and how much does our actual corporate finance team actually execute deals? So I had a look at their deal advisory pages on their websites, GWC, Big Four, etc. and I couldn't really kind of work out what did what exactly is they do. Like, it seems like half of what they do is corporate finance. Half of it is kind of. Services like, but I couldn't really find a resource that could break it down. Would you have any kind of experience with that? Would you have any insights?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:24] I never worked with the Big Four, but I know like I know at least when I was in private equity and banking, like I think they they have bigger practices in due diligence, transaction advisory services. So oftentimes they're doing like quality of earnings reports, stuff like that. That's a lot bigger practice for them. Then then like the strict investment banking where they're actually like pure advisor on a business like, like on the banking side that makes sense, like M&A advisory, for example. Okay. That's usually a much smaller piece of the business then. They're like, audit is like the monster, right? Tax is pretty big. And then like corporate finance and advisory and all this stuff, transaction advisory service to us, it's still it's a big business, but it's just it's not as big as the other two monsters. I mean, they're huge, right? It's hard for me to say because I don't have any experience. I don't know if you have an opinion on this. But yeah, I think from my perspective, like it's a little skewed because I, I saw all the work I saw them do was like quality of earnings reports. I do like tax stuff on all the deals you're doing. So yeah, much less origination and more of like.
Nabil: [00:23:35] Yeah, they'd like that kind of work. But I think that's like a big focus, especially in emerging markets. It's like pretty big compared to even audit. At least like in the Middle East. It is not sure about Ireland. But yeah, it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:49] Is probably no more than us. I'm honestly I'm basically saying.
Intern 3: [00:23:54] Well, I'm just starting. So to be honest, I'm still on the learning curve.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:59] So what's your concern? I guess what's the source of the question? What are you trying to get to?
Intern 3: [00:24:02] I guess I'm just trying to decipher because for the last few weeks, well, it's kind of last week, you know, a few internships are starting to open their application portals. Some will be coming up the next few weeks. So it's kind of going emerging market tables and kind of breaking down the sector. I want to get into the geography that I want to go to. I kind of seeing, which are the kind of targets beyond just bulge brackets and big names, which are the firms that are really going to be good for your career and what you want to do. So I went on looked at kind of deal volume and who's all big four at the top, but they're not known for investment banking. So that's kind of, yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:44] Get into transaction advisory services at one of the big four. It's a well known feeder into the banks, into investment banking after like that, I know for sure. And more so now than ever, or at least in the past several years, because they're so desperate for analyst talent and all the analysts are leaving early. So the banks are desperate for talent and junior talent. Qualified junior talent is losing them to banks, and the banks are losing them to private equity and other by side and another corporate finance role. So there's kind of like is a great place to be for if you do want to eventually be an investment banking or buy side.
Intern 3: [00:25:22] Yeah, no, I guess I was just trying to break down what are the differences and what the investment banks do over finance and what the advisory.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:31] What task does what transaction advisory services.
Intern 3: [00:25:33] Does. Yeah, I mean, I mean the resources I looked up online, they seem to kind of group tasks and maybe one or two other, maybe a bit of corporate finance under the deal. Advisory umbrella. Yeah. Yes, I guess I was just trying to write.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:53] I mean, there's overlap. Each each fund, each big four has different regional offices, too. So, like, they may have a bigger practice that's like pure investment banking and like Chicago, like the U.S. has a bigger Chicago. I wouldn't know that offhand and at the like. Dig. That's and that you might be able to search for in the forums or ask a question more like a more specific like, hey, what's the biggest. Who has the biggest tax group in the US or in Ireland or the most successful task group. You'll probably get some opinions.
Intern 3: [00:26:29] Sure I can ask friends, but yeah, thanks for that. And I had one other follow up question just based on some of the comments on posting on LinkedIn and LinkedIn thoughts, etc.. So there seems to be trend or I'm certainly seeing a big trend and I'm sure you're noticing it as well of a lot of students posting online big long essays of how they, you know, they've worked their whole life and now they're into their dream job and stuff like that, but also just more similar ones of, you know, I've I've got my dream job at a bulge brackets, you know, very brief gloss thanking everybody. I'm wondering because I'm personally I'm not really a social media person at all. I only really use LinkedIn for kind of professional for services. I don't have like Instagram or Facebook just because it's a time drain. And yeah, I'm interested, but I guess I just wanted to get your opinion like, do h.r. Do professionals, do they take note of that? Is there anything that they see in that or is it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:37] I've heard i've heard some of the banks will encourage people to do it because they want there to be like that buzz associated with the firm.
Intern 3: [00:27:45] Yeah, I know. When I did my spring internship last year, they did send us a logo out to attach if we wanted to put out a post. I didn't oblige, but I saw the exact same logo put out on a lot of my peers who are on the same program.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:59] I think you don't need to do that. I think definitely put it on your LinkedIn the firm, right? Yeah, I think that's all you need to do. I wouldn't. I'd actually think it can hurt you if you go overboard with some people like thinking in the world like as if they've, they've like overcome everything and they haven't even started full time. It kind of makes some of the people in the industry chuckle and laugh. There's a lot of memes on it and people laughing about it just because it's like, Thank you, I've made my dream job and they've never actually worked in it. And they don't realize like how hard it is like.
Intern 3: [00:28:35] And all the horror stories that come out of your dream job and you've never done it before.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:39] I'm looking at your I'm looking at your profile. I think the amount you're sharing. So like the opposite of what Paul is saying, like, I don't want anything that's bad, but oversharing, going the other direction of being like being overly active. Oh, and this is this is really important. It's not just about what you like posting something like over glamorizing your struggle to get to where you are and like tagging your whole family and all your friends and your and different firms. It's not just that that kind of seems a little bit it's a little bit too much of a sharing. It's also your activity. Linkedin shows me like what you've liked.
Intern 3: [00:29:15] Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:16] So imagine if you were like super, super right wing or super left wing, conservative or liberal, and you were just liking all this super right wing stuff or all the super left wing stuff. Right? Great. Your views. Awesome. In a professional setting, it's usually going to hurt you. It's usually better to keep your political political stuff to yourself because all you're doing by broadcasting that is usually pissing off 30 to 40% of the population.
Intern 3: [00:29:47] Hmm. Yeah. I guess there's nothing to gain unless your recruiter is very, very radical. And.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:56] There's very little to gain. And plus you're like, you know, it's just very little to gain. It's my point. So as a as a way to actually help your ability to just lie in interviews and not get not get ghosted for whatever reason to somebody checked your post activity. So people should look at that. You guys should all look at your LinkedIn's. Be cognizant of careful well what you like what you comment on. Now, I don't get in arguments. They're there forever. This includes Facebook and Instagram, too, and especially LinkedIn. So expect to be a lot more professional. All of your Facebook and Instagram should all be set to private. I don't think there's much upside to showing them your social, showing your future employer, your social life. Your broadcasting, your social life. Now, some people will disagree with me, like, let's see your personality and all that stuff. And sure, maybe. I just think it's usually going to do it's much more likely to do harm than good.
Intern 3: [00:30:56] So that's all. Thanks for your Thanks for that. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:01] No, I think yours is fine. I think what you have is fine.
Intern 3: [00:31:04] Yeah, I actually. I tried to keep it. Like, if I accidentally like something, I tried to on, like, as quickly as possible, but it's okay.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:11] It's not like. It's not that crazy. It's not that crazy. It's just like you don't want to be like, if there's a pattern, You know what I mean?
Intern 3: [00:31:16] Yeah, but even for kind of just, you know, sort of social media sites, the amount of analytics they get, I'm just like, No, you're not getting anything from me. Just from that perspective. Yeah. But yeah, no, thanks so much for that insight.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:31] It was Madhav, You had your hand up for a while. Sorry about the delay.
Intern 4: [00:31:37] Yeah. Hi, Patrick. I was just wondering, since you obviously worked in the investment banking industry, like, how hard are the hours? Actually, because I've seen people say that, Oh, it's like 60 hours. It's pretty tough, but you can get through it. And some people say it's like 90 hours. So, like.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:54] Yeah. It's really going to depend on the group in the bank. I'll say even 70 hours sounds like not that hard. But when you do it week after week after week after week, it's pretty grinding. So like. Um. It's not letting me. I was going to try to share my screen, but there's a there's a report under our. Let me see if I can pull this over in the company database. There's a report on banking hours. So you can get a sense of like what firms specifically. Kind of work, their work, their analysts, the.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:32] Most.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:34] Interns the most. And so there's definitely some some firms that really do grind their kids 90 plus hour weeks.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:43] For.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:44] Two years. So they can be that's that's usually the worst, I'd say real working 90 hours a week. You'll have some people saying, oh, I worked 110 hours a week for two years straight. It's like, No, you did it. But 80 to 90 hours a week is pretty brutal consistently. And it's just because the marginal cost of each incremental hour, once you hit like 70, 80 starts going up exponentially, it's just brutal. You start not just losing sleep, but you can't even do your laundry. You can't even like meet up with friends at any time.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:14] And.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:14] Stuff like that. So that's what makes it really hard. Why are you concerned about, like. Like, do you really want to do it?
Intern 4: [00:33:21] Yeah, like, I don't know, because I'm. I'm a double major in CSS and finance, so, like, I have, I don't know, like, obviously the tech side hours are amazing and everything, but like, I feel like I'd be better for it for making, like, I don't know.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:35] It's tough, man. It's a tough decision because you have the SES background. I think you've got to think about the day to day. Do you like being in front of the computer coding more or eventually? Because I think, well, it's not necessarily true because you can see like as you move up, you're probably be managing more engineers, right?
Intern 4: [00:33:52] Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:52] So it becomes a little bit more of a people thing, but it won't be it won't be a sales job, right.
Intern 4: [00:33:57] Thing about SES I feel like is that like moving up in the ladder is tougher than it is for Ivy because like I've been like a three year analyst program and then hopefully you get promoted like she's going to be working like.
Intern 4: [00:34:06] Ten years in the same position.
Intern 4: [00:34:07] And it's kind of tough to move up.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:10] It is tough. The competition in terms of like, it's hard to kind of like differentiate yourself, I guess. I'd assume, based on my friends at our Google, I've had a friend there for like 14 years. He just got promoted and it was but it was like a long time, right?
Intern 4: [00:34:26] Oh, yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:29] And so, I mean, he made it to staff, right? Which is like considered super, super high.
Intern 4: [00:34:32] Yeah. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:34] But like that's, it's a long road, right? But in the meantime he loved his job. It's like, great. The perks are awesome. So, I mean, they kind of like I try to think of it as like in both careers, you're going to have your head down staring at the computer and working long hours, like, regardless, cause probably a little bit less. I assume it's probably around 60 ish hours there.
Intern 4: [00:34:56] Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:59] So yeah, I might push you towards the US because you have the background.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:05] Simply because.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:08] Just I think the demand.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:10] Is just it's always.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:12] It's a little bit, it's a little bit more recession proof I feel like than banking, which can be a little bit more volatile. What year are you.
Intern 4: [00:35:23] I haven't started college. I'm going into freshman year. So got time because like, we have like the handshake app or whatever, It's like an internship like app and like you're supposed to apply for internships, like as you go in. But I don't know if I should go this side or that side when I apply because I don't want to have like deferring internships. And then when you apply for a job, it's like, Oh, I have a message making energy about your kid.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:47] And so, yeah, I think given that you're so young, I think freshman year, I think it's fair to explore.
Intern 4: [00:35:53] Okay.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:54] But then after sophomore I'd say, yeah, like make a decision.
Intern 4: [00:35:57] You got to pick one. So is it possible, say, like you get an internship freshman year, is it possible to go to IB or sophomore year?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:05] Yeah. I don't see why not.
Intern 4: [00:36:07] Okay. Yeah. Yo, shameless plug to sales and trading. You can do CSS and finance at the same time, so you should probably do trading and you get the same promotions as bank and same pay even better depending on the desk. So.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:25] It's true. But then again, Paul, it does become a little bit more of sales eventually.
Intern 4: [00:36:30] Yeah. Well, isn't being an MD just a sales job? Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:36] Oh, no. Yeah. No, I'm not comparing saying yes versus S&P.
Intern 4: [00:36:40] Oh yeah. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:41] Course you'd be managing people, but it's not really like you're not selling out external clients typically, unless you're like doing your own startup or something.
Intern 4: [00:36:50] Yeah, but that's more like project management work, right? Yeah. You get higher up.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:57] Yeah, absolutely. So I don't know if that was helpful, man. But like, you're young, I would try to at least get one internship at. To do a banking internship, do a do a season internship before kind of making that decision because you'll just get a feel for it to.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:14] You.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:14] May be like, Oh my gosh, no way I'm going, Yes. Or you may just be like, Hey, actually this finance stuff is cool.
Intern 4: [00:37:19] Yeah, okay. So is it even possible to get an idea for freshman year? Because I heard it's like.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:27] Very hard.You can do it.
Intern 4: [00:37:29] You're going like Wharton. Like. I don't know.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:32] Well, I mean, we're not talking like you're going to get an internship at Goldman Sachs. Like you.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:36] Can.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:37] Get a ship in a small, small bank, but they're probably like your a freshman come back to me in two years. Even that can be tough. But like, you don't have to say, hey, I'm an incoming freshman. I would leave that out. But like, hey, I'm currently attending X, Y, Z, You know what I mean? Just try to like, not feature that. The news I'm interested in is banking. I was wondering if there's if you need any help, even unpaid, something like that. I think that'd be a good way to go about it. Try to even get something during the year. Maybe near your school.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:11] Possible.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:13] Assuming your grades wouldn't suffer from it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:16] So. Is that helpful?
Intern 4: [00:38:18] Yeah. Thank you. That is helpful.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:21] Thanks for the question. Any other questions? It is. Let's see. 1249 340. We're only 40 minutes in. It's been a very quiet call. Everyone's being shy today.
Nabil: [00:38:36] There are quite a few in the.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:37] Chat, though. Oh, there are. In my blind. Let me see here. Oday says I have a question. I am going to be in my senior year in the fall of 2020 and I'm struggling with finding interests in finance. So I'm in Lebanon. Those recruiters require experience even for internship positions. Any advice I use to work in machine learning sector before? Have you been applying with this internship on your resume?
Intern 5: [00:39:03] A little bad for you. Yeah. He actually used to apply for many, many internships here in Lebanon, but unfortunately, most of them, I told you, they require experience and I don't know what's going on. I have my CV. I can share it with you if you want.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:21] Yeah, maybe. Is it one.Page?
Intern 5: [00:39:22] Page? Yeah, it's one page. It's just like the. Just like the format that you told us about.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:28] Did you. Is the machine learning stuff, is it featured there or is it more finance featured?
Intern 5: [00:39:33] No, it's actually only finance. Oh, good. That's because I'm not majoring in computer science and I'm majoring in finance. But I learned machine learning and programming by myself. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:46] Are you only applying to places in Lebanon? Lebanon?
Intern 5: [00:39:49] The thing is, I tried to apply for places outside of Lebanon. They didn't accept because most companies, actually all of them, they require a work authorization so or residency or things like that. So I got rejected because of this. Actually, these problems are becoming really tough on me. And, you know, it's kind of demotivating. So any advice regarding this issue?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:17] Yeah. So first off, when did you put the Wall Street Oasis internship on your resume?
Intern 5: [00:40:22] I didn't apply when it wasn't my resume. So recently I stopped applying for anything because I had a lot of commitments. Yeah. And also, I'm having a summer semester too. That's the thing.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:36] And how many how many applications have you submitted or how many connections have you made?
Intern 5: [00:40:42] I can tell like it's above 30 applications above even more like more than 50, I believe. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:50] Mostly just to resume drops and stuff.
Intern 5: [00:40:54] Actually, you can tell like 15% of them. I received a call, only a call without an interview. They ask me not technical questions, things about me, about my experience, and they never reply back. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:10] But how many? How are you applying? How are you applying mostly? Are you applying through resume drops or are you applying through other ways?
Intern 5: [00:41:18] On the applications, portals, portals and LinkedIn. And I have one thing to mention. Also, I tried to apply for BCG in Qatar, so I was surprised that me like I had a lot of experience in programming and things like that. And also I had some experience in business sector. I got rejected. I didn't even want I wasn't even invited for an interview. And some of my friends who I know they don't even have, you know, they didn't even do any internship if they get accepted as junior associate there. So I don't know what's wrong. Maybe something with my CV. I don't TV or.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:57] Yeah, you should have somebody review your CV. Um.
Intern 5: [00:42:01] Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:02] Because there may be something on there that's glaring that you don't even realize.
Intern 5: [00:42:06] Okay.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:08] Yeah. And then. 30 to 50 applications. Honestly, isn't that much to get demotivated. Um. Some people have applied to 1000 places before getting that one offer. But I'll say. You're probably going to have more. Do you think he'll have more success? Applying to places that are open, like virtual internships or like, what should he do now that since he's in Lebanon, it's a smaller market? Like. Should he?
Nabil: [00:42:38] I mean, you got to search because I think the Lebanese community, they like move outside. They're not like very heavily based in Lebanon. So you'd have a lot of contact you could make in places like Qatar, UAE, for instance. I know in UAE, like in finance is quite a few Lebanese people here. So you can just talk to them probably. I don't know if you've been talking to people. That's probably the best way to go about it. Yeah.
Intern 5: [00:42:47] Yeah.So advise me just to reach out. People from Lebanon is working in this sector and then maybe seek their help.
Nabil: [00:42:54] Yeah, exactly. They'd be able to help you out. They'd be able to advise you, like, what do you.
Nabil: [00:43:14] Need to do before you.
Nabil: [00:43:15] I mean, before you come here or like, or anywhere, really. Yeah. Yeah. They have big communities. Yeah. So you could leverage their help for sure. We haven't done that already. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't do this over the air. Yeah. Thank you.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:31] Yeah, I would do that again. We go. We go back to, like, just relationships is going to make so much. It's going to get you so many more interviews, then dropping your resume cold. Marco. Marco.Nina.
Intern 6: [00:43:44] How are you guys?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:49] Hey, Marco. How are you doing?
Intern 6: [00:43:50] Excellent. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you very much. This is my first week here with you guys.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:56] Awesome. Where are you? Where are you calling from?
Intern 6: [00:43:58] Well, I'm from Bolivia, but now I'm living in Toronto. In Canada? Oh, cool. Yes, I work in the oil and gas industry for eight years. I got a master's in business administration. I got a masters in the UK in engineering. Cool. And because of the pandemic, I lost my job there. So I have to go back, visit my family. And now I'm here. I'm studying machine learning and data analyst and everything related to programming and stuff because I want to be like a business analyst. I love finance, but I need know the tools to how to predict, how to analyze. So that's basically me. And I've been watching you guys and you are you are doing really, really good.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:52] Thank you. Welcome. Great to have you. Any question you have specifically around I'm looking at your LinkedIn, so I have a good idea of your background now. So you're not in Toronto now you're back in Bolivia?
Intern 6: [00:45:01] No, I am in Toronto now. In Toronto. Yes. Yes. I just want to say, you know, the reasoning I think is correct me if I'm wrong, the guy from Lebanon. Yes. Dirty application is not I mean, you need to try more just on advice and maybe go try to some volunteering, meet people. You know, the most important stuff, in my opinion, in every kind of of a job or or lawyer, you you are involved in people. So the most important part is people. And and that's why, for instance, me, I was a university professor. I was an English teacher for orphans in South America. I always trying to to involve and I am here with you now. You see, I just came here two months ago. I had this experience and it's just trying and meeting people and, you know, being out of your comfort zone. I think that's that's that's what make the difference.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:06] I love it. Yeah. It's great advice I think. Marco your your.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:12] Linkedin.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:13] Looks. If I look great, the only thing I notice is your lack of connection requests. You've got to up that.
Intern 6: [00:46:20] Yeah, I mean, the thing is, my, my, my LinkedIn privacy was with my whole experience because I work as a data engineer for three years in oil and gas. Eight years in oil and gas. And my last position was a head of drilling service service. And so it was too much university professor. I was volunteering. So then I say, okay, I'm doing here in Toronto is just going to be focused in data analysis in the business sector. So I had to remove everything. Now I'm starting again and I appreciate if you have some advice though, because, you know.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:55] How do you start a tableau as well, like in terms of business, like different tools in terms.
Intern 6: [00:46:59] Of. Yes, Yes. That's we we were doing S.W. in exercises and at a colleague with some friends and now this week I'm going to to do Power BI, which is really valuable. Yes, yes.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:12] Good. You're on the right track. There'll be jobs. If you get those skills, they'll be jobs.
Intern 6: [00:47:18] Yes. Yes. Again, I just want to contribute with you guys. I mean, if you if you need something about writing. I'm really good at writing. I love writing and researching because before the pandemic, I, I go to offers to do research in the UK. So I went there. I was working in England and then the COVID, you know, So we, we, we lost the funds. Yeah, I had to come back here. So yeah, so basically that's, that's, that's me and yeah, so.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:51] Love it. Love it. Yeah. Well, we'll keep you in mind as we go. I think it's nice to have somebody with a little more experience and give the wisdom to the young, younger interns here. Is is your hand up again? Or Madhav, did you raise again? Do you guys have another question or not?
Intern 7: [00:48:09] I think someone was ahead of me, so I'll let them go ahead to the question. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:13] Did you have another question, madhav? I think he needed.
Intern 7: [00:48:19] My mind was on the whole time I was.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:24] Um, I think. I think it's you. Then. I think there was other question.
Intern 7: [00:48:28] Perfect. Yes, I had one that. Ah, kind of question that just kind of came to mind. So I'm just thinking so know, I feel like normally when you're applying for kind of internships, the kind of summer ones, the grad ones, etc., they're not obviously specific to any desk in an IBD team or an S&P team or whatever. How do you ensure that, let's say you are interested in a certain sector or coverage or product team? How do you ensure that you get on one of those desk? Do you say it in the interview and then they kind of allocate you to that on the internship or do you do rotation across the desk? Usually you do rotate.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:49:12] Usually you do rotations. It depends how big the firm is, right? But usually there's rotations. You've got to be a little careful about like being really picky early. Like, I think getting the job is like oftentimes they'll do the assignments, whatever desk after you can. Like there's like a matching process where you rank them. Sometimes it's just a general pool, though, where you have to just get in, pass everybody else. And so. It could be good if you're interviewing with somebody, a specific desk and you say you want to be on their desk and they could backfire on you. If you do somebody else and you say you want to be on another desk. Um, with H.R., I think you'd be a little more open. But you don't want to be like, I'm not going to take it unless you give me this coverage group or whatever.
Intern 7: [00:50:00] You can just say, I guess kind of people please and choose your audiences as long as you get their turn it off or that's the frie.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:50:07] I get the return offer first. And then the other thing is if let's say you get the return offer and you you let them let air you let you rank specific groups and they don't give you any of your top choices and they put you in a group you really don't like. As far as I'm concerned, you should be shopping that offer.
Intern 7: [00:50:26] Okay.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:50:26] And you should be like, you should have much easier time actually getting looks and interviews, too, because you can just say to the other group through the, Hey, I'm in this, I'm going to this group. I really would prefer to be in this coverage group you're in. I don't know if there's any additional slots for a lateral intern or for a full time role, but that's that's what I would do then. But I wouldn't risk your return offer with with being overly demanding too early.
Intern 7: [00:50:51] Okay. And that kind of return offer on a certain desk. How is that determined? Is that just how you got on with that certain team formed or how you got along, how you got on?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:02] Yeah, usually I'll say it's not always, but usually it's like, Oh, do they like hanging out with you? Can you take a joke?
Intern 7: [00:51:12] Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense, I guess.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:14] And like, your work, obviously, like, are you sloppy or are you making mistakes or are you doing a good job with the lunch orders?
Intern 7: [00:51:22] Okay. Essentially, do they want you back? Does that specific team want you back?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:27] Exactly. Yeah. And sometimes they'll rank there. I think that they have their own internal ranking process that we really want. We don't want X, Y, Z person, that type of thing. But if everyone's gone in for you like we all want it, then you may not end up the place you want to be, but then it's helpful if the team that wants you and you say you want that team, the air will take care of that.
Intern 7: [00:51:48] Give you the one you want. Okay. So if there's a lot of demand for if you're lucky enough to be in that position and there's so much demand, you might even not even get a say in the offer. It's just. Yeah. Who has the most pull amongst the managers? Yes. Interesting. Yeah. Thanks for that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:52:10] Yeah, there's an all firms do this differently. But the the basic rules of what I said typically go like usually there's this, this big powwow internally where they're all like around a table and they're like putting everyone's name and everyone's like deciding who gets the offers. But then also there's a little bit of that matching going on, or sometimes it's done in a separate second meeting. So once everybody is like given the general offer, they figure out who is accepted and then they start the matching. Sometimes it's done all at once. Sometimes it's done in two separate meetings.
Intern 7: [00:52:43] Awesome. Thanks, Patrick.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:52:45] Yep. Yep. No worries. I always say like be careful not to over overstep. Your your your leverage. I think you have more leverage than you do. They have tens of thousands of thousands of applicants for every seat they fill.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:53:03] So.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:53:06] Let's be careful. Some more questions here in the chat that I had missed. Let me see. Max is a high school graduate without college experiences. How should I jumpstart my career in finance or business? Are there any internships or programs designed for my educational background? Hey Max.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:53:26] There is.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:53:28] So without college experience, it's tough to get into any sort of traditional recruiting channels, and it's going to be tough to network too, because people are going to be like, okay, what year are you? What's your degree? Because it's such a like. How do I say, risk averse industry. So it's going to be very hard. I think the best if you don't want to go to college, even if it's community college and transferring to like in-state where the tuition low. Your best bet is really just like developing specific skills around a specific niche. For example, let's say you're into real estate. You become really good at real estate modeling and then you offer your services for free to a guy doing like development and small acquisitions, real estate in your region. Suddenly you've worked on three or four deals, you've done all the underwriting for him or her, and then suddenly you have that expensive resume. People aren't going to care as much about the college, but it's going to make things a lot harder to get that first kind of shot. So again. You don't need to go to college to get a good role. I think there's a lot of mature maturing that happens during college and you understand how how to learn better going through that experience, but it doesn't mean it can't be done.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:54:37] The other thing I'd say specifically is like. You've got to learn how to network either way. You've got to learn how to talk to people either way. So the sooner you get good at that, the faster you'll be able to start getting opportunities to for real work. For real apprenticeship type work where you know very little, no matter how much, how many online courses you do and things like real, when you get thrown into the real world and you're actually thrown into the messiness of the real world. That's the type of work you eventually need to get on your resume to be looked at seriously. So you need to stack internships basically right now. This is a good place to start. Let's see. What else did I miss? Pathos. I'm a rising junior at Virginia Tech. Should I just go for a middle or small firm first, then go for a big firm after Hey, Path? That's a little vague, but I would say go for all firms. Now, why are you going to Doesn't take. It's not that hard to apply to a place. I think you'd be.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:55:39] It would be a big.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:55:39] Mistake if you're only going for the big firms and the big names. That's a big mistake that a lot of people make, thinking I have a high GPA, like I'm going to get lots of looks, I'm going to get interviews, and then everyone's shocked when they don't even get an interview. So that would be a mistake. But you should still apply to your reaches. It's just like any college application. You're going to have safeties, you're going to have your course and you're going have reaches apply to your reaches. You never know. Maybe you'll get an interview and you'll wow them and boom, you're in. To save yourself three years. Let's see here.
Intern 8: [00:56:14] I have a quick question. I don't know if you answered this last week, but at a big bank like Bank of America or Citi with a huge balance sheet. What desks would you recommend in trading? I know you're not the most knowledgeable in trading, but do you think it would be like a high yield or credit desk? Then instead of like obviously equities or equity derivatives would probably be like Delta one would be the lowest on the totem pole.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:56:47] Honestly, Yeah. I would be speaking out of my ass if I gave you.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:56:51] Advice on that. My God, you just don't.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:56:53] I don't know enough about the dynamics of city, especially at specific banks, to be not to be knowledgeable. I would ask that I would go to the trading community to ask that exact question. Yeah, I think it's a good question. It's totally fair.
Intern 8: [00:57:08] And then another question. I reached out to this guy at Goldman Investment Banking, and he said he's happy to chat. He said, it's been a crazy week. He hasn't gone back to me, but Wednesday to Friday works. And then I said, Yeah, that works for me. And then he hasn't responded back. Should I just send him a quick ping if today still works? Saying. Um.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:57:33] It's Friday, right? Yeah. As long as it's more like soft, like a short one line. Just wondering if you had any time later tonight. If not, no worries. I'll follow up in a few weeks. Something like that.
Intern 8: [00:57:48] Got it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:57:49] Yeah. So I just keep it soft and casual. Don't be like you, too. We had scheduled the time from Wednesday to Friday. Not as long as you're not doing that. I think you're fine.
Intern 8: [00:57:58] Yeah, You're blocked from my number.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:58:00] Yeah, exactly. I will not talk to you anymore. You stood me up. Mohammed, you have a question? And then think you're muted still. And then if Muhammad doesn't have a question, I will pull up another one.
Intern 9: [00:58:22] Yeah, sure. So. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:58:24] Yeah. Hey, how are you? Sorry. Did you say you had a question?
Intern 9: [00:58:29] So, yeah, basically, I just want to ask. It's been. It's been a busy week and I couldn't really I couldn't really contribute a lot of work for the internship this week because we have the holiday and this weekend. So, you know, it's been a really busy week. So is it okay that this week wasn't a productive one?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:58:50] That's fine. I think as long as you're averaging out over the internship, I think it's fine. Yeah.
Intern 9: [00:58:57] Okay. Usher. So next week I will try to catch up on things, but I finalized my first article both ways.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:59:06] Awesome. Awesome. Thank you for that.
Intern 9: [00:59:09] Thank you.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:59:12] Then let me see what else here, Tony said. I'm really bad at networking. I realize that is extremely important. Any tips on how I could code message random people on LinkedIn and get a conversation started? I love the self reflection and the introspection to know that you're bad at networking. It's something you need to get better at. So I think the cold messages and LinkedIn stuff, probably the easiest part, the hardest part is actually picking up the phone and getting and talking to people. That's when people who are shy or don't feel like they're good enough, that's where they really get nervous. In terms of who you should be. Cold messaging. I would really cold message anybody you could have any connection to. Relatively speaking. So I'm looking at your see if I can pull up your profile here. Here you are, sir. You're in Dubai. Amu, are you in Plattsburgh? New York. I don't know if you're still on tonight. Is. I'll ask you to unmute if you're still listening. But in general, I think.
Intern 10: [01:00:22] Sorry for that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:00:22] No, it's okay. So are you are you in Plattsburgh right now?
Intern 10: [01:00:26] Not right now, but I'll be going there in like a month.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:00:28] A month? Yeah. You're going back for your last semester?
Intern 10: [01:00:31] Yep.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:00:32] Um. So I think the best thing you can do is. You have 200 connections, 230 connections. I think anybody that's. At another non target school, maybe in that area in the New York area. Be a good person to reach out to. And it could be like, hey, just wanted to reach out and hope to get time to chat. I mean, the issue is you're graduating soon, right?
Intern 10: [01:00:59] Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:01:01] And you don't have anything lined up for January.
Intern 10: [01:01:04] Not as of yet.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:01:06] So. To me at this point, it's that's takes precedence over everything, over even classes at this point, assuming you did. So, like, what I would say is like. You should be hitting anybody in everybody up as many connection requests as you can. Probably about 100 a day.
Intern 10: [01:01:31] We got it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:01:32] With a short you just do a quick filter. Like just look at schools near Plattsburgh. So look at anybody. I mean, even if it's like Fordham, Baruch just like, make that connection. Like, hey, I'm also at a non target and you're in New York. You know, I was hoping we could have a couple of minutes of talk notice you work that edited out, but you have that template you use copy, paste, copy paste, send connect connection, request connection, request connection requests. Each one probably take you about 30 seconds to a minute to do once you have that list searched. So you do that, you'll probably get about 10 to 5 10 to 20% of the people accepting your connection request. From there you pull those emails, you get them into into your right inbox, and then you start the follow up, Hey, try to set times for calls for phone calls.
Intern 10: [01:02:14] Got it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:02:16] That's the best thing you could do. That's going to be the most It's it sounds like a pain. It is a pain. It's a nightmare. It's but that's the best thing you do is get on the phone call again on phone calls right now and not be just dropping your resume in. I'd also get this this internship on your LinkedIn. Got it as you're doing that because it'll make it'll make you more relatable to people in finance to be like, oh, I know. Wall Street Oasis.
Intern 10: [01:02:45] Got it. Perfect.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:02:48] Okay. Because the other stuff like you are a random marketing intern employee. Yeah, not bad. Like, I don't know. Is your GPA decent?
Intern 10: [01:02:57] Yeah, it's a 3.9.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:02:58] Yeah. So that's great. So, like, you just need to get yourself out there.
Intern 10: [01:03:02] Got it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:03:03] But it's going to be tough, man. Like, I think you should keep your keep your net pretty wide at this point because it's six months away.
Intern 10: [01:03:11] Yeah. Yeah. Good luck. Thank you.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:03:15] Keep us up to date.
Intern 10: [01:03:17] Of course.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:03:19] And then let's see here. And by the way, everyone's bad at networking when they start. It's not something you're bad at permanently. It's just going to be awkward and weird. The first ten calls you do, and then you'll be like, This is so bad. Marco is laughing. Amos How and when should I follow up with people I have networked with? Amy It's a great question. So a lot of people are like, it's awkward when I follow up. So I think right, right after your initial call, you should thank them for taking the time out of their busy schedules to chat with you. Then I typically say anywhere from 3 to 6 weeks, even three months depending. So if like, for example, let's say you land an internship somewhere or you spoke with somebody that had that knew them, or let's say you spoke to somebody that they had referenced to you, that's another opportunity to reach out and thank them. Hey, I spoke with Julie that you recommended speaking with, and she was super helpful. I just wanted to send them a quick thank you to you for introducing us. That's that's a good way. So like I'd say, there's several times you can reach out. One is like when things change on your recruiting path. So like, you landed an internship, you just started applying. You got something, an award, not to brag about it, but just check in with them. If it's like three months just to give, it gives you an opportunity to reach out and update your whole network. So there's like big milestones like landing an internship, keeping them up to days, thanking them again for their time, that type of stuff. So yeah, I would usually say don't do like every other week or every three weeks. I'd say usually try to stretch it out a little bit so you can say something to them that's relevant.
Intern 11: [01:04:58] Thank you for answering. It's the thing that my first time, like not working with them. I didn't ask for anything but some of my friends that, like at the end of our conversation, I should ask for a referral, which I didn't. So, like, I was wondering, like. Like, even after months. Like, can I still ask for a referral or or should I ask for like, a second time, like coffee chat and then asks for a referral?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:05:28] I don't think I need to do another coffee chat, but I think in email just updating them saying, Hey, I just wanted to thank you again. I was wondering if there's anyone else. Don't call it a referral, but I'm saying I was wondering if you think it'd be helpful if you could say, I'm wondering if there's anyone else you think I could speak with that would be helpful, that might be able to give me some insight into the path that I'm looking for? I don't know. I don't know if you're what you're targeting, but you could reference that, so.
Intern 11: [01:05:53] Oh, it's consulting.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:05:54] Yeah. So I don't know if there's anyone else. Do you think I should? Is it management consulting?
Intern 11: [01:06:00] Yes.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:06:00] So I don't know if there's anyone else you feel like I could chat with and greatly appreciate an introduction, but I understand if you're too busy. Either way, Thanks again for chatting with me. A few months ago It was very insightful. Nothing like that.
Intern 11: [01:06:11] Oh, okay. And should I be reaching out to them through email or LinkedIn.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:06:17] If you have their email. Email.
Intern 11: [01:06:19] Oh, okay. Yeah. That's helpful. Thank you so much.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:06:23] Yeah, no worries. Thank you.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:06:25] Good luck.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:06:27] Um, let me see what else I think we'll do one more. It's been a long call. Guys. Started off slow and then picked up steam. Um. Maybe. Here we go. How do you target? How do you target small banks? Are there certain firms that have a recruitment quota for certain schools? And kind of answer both of those. So certain firms have recruitment quota for certain schools. It's not really a quota per se, but they they're definitely our firms that have certain relationships with certain schools, and they try to keep that relationship in good standing by, at least taking usually 1 to 3 candidates from that school. So it's rare to see, let's say it's rare to see like huge swings where like they'll take eight analysts from a school and then the next year they'll take zero. Usually you'll see like a pretty steady stream and it can go up or down in a given year depending on the applicant quality pool. But. Much more, at least in terms of domestic banking recruiting. There's there's much larger bucket for the non target group, which is good for a lot of you who are at Target school. So that is good. So yeah, there's definitely relationships at the Target and the semi target schools with these firms, but I don't think it's relevant anyways whether they have a target, whether they have a relationship or not. It's not changing kind of what you need to do. To put yourself in.
Intern 12: [01:07:58] Any examples of any relationships. You know, I.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:08:05] You know, I was at Williams College. I know we had a pretty good relationship with like, we're a tiny little liberal arts college. I know we had a pretty good relationship with like. Mike Rothschild, where I ended up in Goldman Sachs. We would usually place a few candidates there every year for a tiny school. Pretty good. So that's an example. But like if you go to again, the company database has a section, a tab called university stats. You can see that there are certain banks that lean a little bit more on certain schools in terms of who they interview and who they bring in. So you can see there's like sometimes it's weird, sometimes like a bulge bracket. We'll like, recruit it all the top schools except for one or something like that, except for a couple. And then like, it's the flip side. Brothers. So you see there's like that's typically a function of like the senior professionals, the partners having come from those schools and they want to pull more.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:09:03] From those.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:09:04] Schools for obvious reasons. And then the last one, how do you target small banks? Sharma asked this in Sharma I think it's going to be again, the same answer is going to be talking to the actual employees, the analysts and the associates that the banks at those funds and trying to get a relationship. Show them that you're you're eager to work in the industry, show them that you understand what they do. Try to learn more about the specific bank itself. Looking in the news at the potential deals they've done, being more knowledgeable around that so you can show that there actually is a lot of interest there. That's typically the best way about it. Anything else I think that's going to call it. Nabil Is that good? Is that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:09:46] Enough?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:09:48] That's a long call, guys. I'm going to call it before my voice goes. But thanks so much to everybody for joining. This will.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:09:53] Be up.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:09:54] We'll get it up next week or next week or the week after up in the in the chat so everyone can see it. Thanks so much, everybody. Thank you.
Intern: [01:10:04] Weekend. Thank you so much.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:10:06] Thanks, guys. Thank you. And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.
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