WSO Podcast | E170: Director at Citi in ECM London and his 14 Year Run
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In this episode Chris shares his path from the University of Zurich to working in Citi's London office for 14 years. Listen to hear his recruiting advice, what it was like when the Great Financial Crisis hit when he was an analyst in 2008, what that meant for his future, how his roles and pay shifted as he got promoted as well as some Dos and Don'ts while networking.
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WSO Podcast (Episode 170) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me! As I talked to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, Chris shares his path from the University of Zurich to working in cities in London office for 14 years. Listen to hear his recruiting advice what it was like when the Great Financial crisis hit, when he was an analyst in 2008. What that meant to his future, how his roles in pay shifted as he got promoted, as well as some do's and don'ts while networking. Enjoy.
Chris, thanks so much for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast. I. Patrick, good to speak to you today to be awesome if you could give the listeners a short summary bio. Sure. My name is Christopher Whitley. I was a director at City after 14 years of experience at citigroup.
Chris: [00:01:15] In equity capital markets covering northern Europe. Prior to that, I also worked and studied. At the same time, I finished my degrees at the University of Zurich in Switzerland in two thousand seven, joined directly city in the in the grad program and next to my studies, I was working at a firm called Kepler Equities, which came out of Julius Baer, the Swiss private bank in the brokerage division and in brokerage and equity research. So basically, to this day today, I just left City an opportunity to speak a bit about the industry for you guys and maybe give some insights into what a career in investment banking means.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:02] For sure, I really appreciate you taking the time. So let's go all the way back to the University of Zurich and are you from or you're from Zurich or from the area? And did you always was finance ever on the radar? Because I know you were a political science history or archaeology major, which is very different. So tell me how you ended up at City first and kind of just a little bit more about your background growing up? Sure.
Chris: [00:02:25] Look, Patrick, I think it's yes, I think so. I am Swiss, but spent a number of years abroad growing up. That's why most probably won't discern much of an accent in my English but international. It was always quite important for me. And the second thing for me, I think also important was, you know, I grew up at home. My dad was a banker for a number of years internationally to the bank in Switzerland. So I was very familiar through friends, family, surroundings with the financial world. Obviously, as a Swiss, private banking is a big industry and definitely felt that that was the way it was going to head at some point. My first experience was at Julius Baer back in two thousand two thousand one, where I finished my high school called gymnasium, did my maturity or mature and headed to work at Julius Baer, first in payments and transaction services, then working on a cash desk again, all organized directly with Julius Baer. And then I was transferred into one of the private banking teams to work on their desks and assist all three studies. A great overview. I felt this is the way to go and love that I love the financial industry because of the nationality. Clients are all Asia far eastern U.S. clients back then. And yeah, there was there was some good experiences there that also showed to me that I did enjoy the world. And you know, private banking is a lot and I know there's an investment banking podcast, but just to
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:14] Touch on it, we talk about all finance. Oh, very well. Private banking
Chris: [00:04:20] Service obviously is such a long tradition, but there's a big service mentality behind it and
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:26] Tell me about that. We don't. We haven't had a podcast, you know, talking about private banking. I don't think we know a lot. Obviously, I don't know much about Julius Baer. I'd love to hear more about that. And just specifically, it sounds like you were doing kind of internships after high school
or during high school, after high school, before university. Correct.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:43] So, yeah, can you tell me about that? And was it just your family connections that you landed it or how did you get that?
Chris: [00:04:49] No, no. That was purely applied directly into different into different HR departments. I was always just very interested in getting ones to work, obviously. 18. You finish your high school, you want to do something. And banking was definitely going to be a way I felt I need to test and look what it's about. You despair is was a family owned back then. Private bank know about 20 employees. Very traditional, very though. Very close. So people are very close to each other. But they knew everybody within departments. It was actually quite a good place to get to learn the industry a bit, meet people, learn the terminology, the words and all that, but is also a place where I learned that private banking was not going to be my future. It was. It was fun. It was interesting. Again, I enjoy the client interactions. And let's not forget this is why Swiss private banking at its at its peak. So we're talking. Full discretion, you know, secrecy, etc. So you have to have a super level of maturity and professionalism from begin on. And I learned the ropes there very well. I started off as in the payments department. So that's, you know, just to set the baseline there, right? This is not day one. Here's a client. You deal with them. You know, my first deal, first few days were spent entering payments into the system, but also what it did was ultimately. And that's for all of you out there who are worrying, you know, should I do a middle office back office job to get to know the industry? Do it because what you learn is a lot about how a bank works. You know, just being able to understand what a swift is, what a what a, you know, how payment system works, how matching works, you know, all these kind of elements.
These are very, very useful skills that help you understand the broader context. Always. And then as I work through the cash desk, there's a first payments and then the payments. People put me for a month at the main office, the main shopping street, their bottom drawer, sit on the cash desk. So literally, you know, access to a treasure getting cash ready. All these kind of jobs, but also menial stuff, you know, like filling up the cash machines, you know? But it's all stuff that has to happen. And it was all great experiences to learn and do and learn a lot about processes. But and then from there, I was moved into for three months as a kind of a backup assistant to
To the North American far eastern team dealing with a high net worth.
Individuals there that were that were banking offshore, which obviously now has ended in Switzerland due to a significant pushback on that. But it was an interesting experience because again, there we were, ultimately operating
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:43] People who are familiar. What's happened? Can you give a little bit of a history? Sure. Sure.
Chris: [00:07:48] Sure. Sure, sure. Switzerland's always been a tax haven, obviously in as far as tax avoidance, not tax dodging avoidance was seen as you know, really a, you know, a bad thing to do or definitely not something criminal. And some banks offer specialized or were able to help people or would put this very delicately looked away from potentially some, how clients made their money. And again, how they were treated with the tax with the tax system. So all that came to more or less a fall in the mid to thousands and has that progressed into a completely different Swiss banking system, which is much more cautious about that? A lot more clarity around individuals, beneficial owners. So it's not too easy, for example, to just bring up a trust and say, we're not going to tell you who's behind to trust. You actually have to give beneficial owners out there. So when I started,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:54] This was just because people, initially people were just using it as a tax haven, a way to avoid taxes here in the U.S., everywhere, abroad, everywhere.
Chris: [00:09:00] Well, again, it's the tax haven story, right? So people would have a number to count, put the money into Switzerland, not declare it anywhere. Right? And again, the banks in Switzerland were just cautious of not thinking too much into that right? But it didn't
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:15] Pay them not to look too much into it for a long time, right? It's good. It's good to have that balance, right?
Chris: [00:09:20] It's changed a lot, and I think a lot of that also has to do, obviously with the developments of the 2000s, right? Money streams, obviously.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:28] Was there a certain kind of like? For that dropped at
a certain date that was like that was it, that was the death of
Chris: [00:09:35] Obviously now we're talking about banking history and Switzerland better than my career. But that was that was in those days, and I think I wouldn't say any of that was an impact, but I just realized what I dealt with individuals ultimately, right? So people kind of wondering because it's one person's money, maybe your family's money. And it was personal. So I realized, you know, I don't want to be part of that. I preferred the professional services that you offer when working in investment banking, when you work with, with, with institutional clients.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:11] Did you know that? Did you know that when you were doing kind of when you were working with the individuals where you immediately like, Oh, this, working with individuals is not so good? Let me go to investment banking or equity capital. Did you know that at the time,
Chris: [00:10:21] I didn't really realize that too much? I think it was a sense for me that I didn't want to work necessarily with individuals. And so I progressed with my career, so I did. My military service came back to university. I was dabbling a bit with economics and business, and then started off my first job in brokerage and again in brokerage. I ended up in the middle office as a student job, you know, 40 50 percent after after uni. And again, Switzerland's a bit different maybe than the U.S., but maybe closer to Germany or the U.K., where you can actually do other jobs next to it because you can you can organize your time a bit better. So it's been three or four hours a day entering trades into the databases, into the systems, because back then, not everything was electronic yet. So the salespeople would still fill in individual buy, sell sheets and into the middle office. And we've obviously processed the trades and get everything set up for settlement. And again, there you learn a lot about the settlement system. You learn about the trading system, you have interaction with the middle offices and other trading houses, banks, etc. So a lot of good experience collected over the years. And then I Did that for an ear and that team said, Look at Julius Baer again in the brokerage team. You're great, you should move into research. And then I transferred into research where I spent the next four years really, you know, working from, you know, writing sections of Reports, definitely working On all of the models, doing research for the analysts.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:57] This is all while you're still in uni, though, this is
Chris: [00:11:59] All that's all. I'm on duty, which is obviously
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:01] 10 hours a week, 20 hours. What are we talking here to do?
Chris: [00:12:04] All the talking? Well, it depended, obviously in the summer breaks. That would be a full time job or great direction, 50 60 hours a week. Yeah. And during the busy phases, obviously was back down to, you know, two three hours a day or two days a week, something like that. So I was paid 40 percent and that was working around that level.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:25] So you were paid. Oh, paid 40 percent
Chris: [00:12:28] Or 40 percent. So full time. Not, not a full time job. Got it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:32] And so this was is this typical to be at a firm kind of throughout your university? I mean, for four years, right? And I know you got a master's
and stuff, but yeah, well,
Chris: [00:12:43] It Isn't a very typical Thing. And obviously, everything changes depending on Bologna and other, you know, on the curricula you have. But I think the big question, I think maybe this is the kind of the take away from this because everybody's experience is different, but there is no merit in just pushing through directly with three years of university or four years of university. You have the opportunity to do other stuff on the side. So if you're doing, let's say, 20 points a semester and somebody else is 30 points a semester, but you can do 20 points and work on the side, that's not necessarily a bad thing to do. At some point, people don't care how long you studied. At some point, people don't count up those years and say, hey, you should have done it three and a half or four years or whatever, you know. So you know you, you yourself need to sort out What works for you In that context. And for me, the practical experience is good. I ended up also switching my major. I moved into political sciences. I was struggling a bit with the exams in business and finance, which has a shocking that that obviously now today at work in this field. And to this day, obviously people still ask me, you know, you know, how did you end up as an archaeologist, you know, in The business, but one way or the other, I think What you can't forget is, again, Uni is a great experience. It's an opportunity to learn something different. The Anglo-Saxon world always allows dabbling with different topics, doesn't have to be business in finance and allows yet still enough chances to be studying across different subjects. So you. Ultimate mechanics, for example, history with economics and do something in economic history or something like that to build up.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:37] Was this partly a financial consideration as well, because you're earning 40 percent of a full time and helping fund it, fund your university? Because I mean, you're there. You had the I know in Europe it's different, but the master's, right? So it's typically done in four or five years, right?
Chris: [00:14:52] That's right. Five years into master
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:53] And you were there about seven, right?
Chris: [00:14:56] Yeah, exactly. So I started on that was working. I started off with business economics almost a year and a half on that one, I lost half a year doing my military service in Switzerland, which is compulsory. So you kind of add up all that together and there you go. Yeah, of course. There you go. In 70 years is not a bad thing. I think the difference is clearly once you're finished, you come to your first job, your most probably a bit older than your average grad, both in the US or in Europe. And again, banks have a wide range of acceptance when it comes to age. So twenty five, twenty six is not an uncommon age for most of the European society. So most of the guys who were in my analyst class were, I'd say, from the European side, where on average twenty five. Whereas the U.K. or U.S. grads or obviously close to twenty two twenty three. Right. And that's that was a clear distinction at the start.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:53] But tell me kind of the whole process of so you're as you're approaching, you had this equity research position or research assistant position for so many years. Tell me a little bit about as you're approaching finally approaching graduation, you're finally approaching the point of credits to be done.
Chris: [00:16:10] Yeah. You're a triple major. Tell me a little bit about just the recruiting process. Was it where you're thinking,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:15] Hey, I'm going to go full time in equity research?
Chris:[00:16:18] Yeah, that that was that was definitely one thing I was obviously thinking. My employer would give me a full time job. I had a famous chat with the boss there, and I said, listen, so what are we going to do with me? And I'm done with my university, my the guy turned around and said to me, what do you mean with that? And I was like, Oh, so you're not thinking about hiring me full time? And the answer was something along the lines of what were you thinking?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:47] And so I would like, why would we do that? Kind of what would we do that correct?
Chris: [00:16:53] I was shocked about that. Obviously, you know, you spend so much time and all of that. But it was a good life lesson, and I'll never forget my my boss back then the analyst who covered health care, and I'll never forget her, her words. But she said, you know what? That could be a Blessing in disguise because you do not have to take a decision here. Somebody has taken the decision for you. You know where you are. That means you can move on, right? Yeah. And I'll never forget that because obviously disappointment was big and so I started going into the interview process. The interview process was interesting because obviously in Germany, Switzerland, typically we don't have a business or finance degree. A lot of people question why they don't look necessarily at the job experience and vice versa.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:36] How did you even get the interview? I guess that that internship did help, obviously very well.
Chris: [00:17:41] Exactly. People were looking at and saying, look, you were full or partial part time employee, so you definitely built up some knowledge base. But then decisions were taken and typically went for grads with a finance Degree, but maybe less experience. My experience, though, with the London, New York banks, you know, was much more positive. So I interviewed or put forward, I think, I think January. So I wasn't even fully aware about the interview cycles. You know, Patrick, your website didn't exist yet, so there was no chance to really dig into.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:15] I think we just started. I think it was 15. It was like, Oh, we were tiny.
Chris: [00:18:20] Yeah, the point in time where it was Hard, where nobody really knew what to look for. Because definitely, I heard about you guys the first time when I actually thought to the analyst the training and we were checking out some of the forum At that point. But look, No, I didn't see much information. They understand the whole hiring cycles and all that. And then they were looking off cycle for a analyst and the equity capital markets team with German language skills. I fit them all perfectly at city. It was literally my first, I think, application and interview. And at the same time, Deutsche was looking also for, I think, a big analyst, and I applied for that one as well. I was invited to interview for both, but I had the City one, I think, a week before the other. And so I did my telephone interviews with the head of Germany back then and then into invited for the Super Day and individual interviews, also with the head of Ecm and the co-head of Northern Europe, et cetera. So that happened relatively. So he got to the point where I was offered a job by city before I had a chance even to go to the Deutsch interview, at which point I just said, Look, I got an American bank, I've got an offer. I'm happy with it. It's an equity capital markets which have all done all of my career basically in equity, so it's a place I feel comfortable in.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:51] Now that was in the London
Chris: [00:19:52] Office, correct? That was in the London Office, correct? Yeah. And then hired directly to start in the Atlas class of 2007, which was an interesting experience. And to come to that again, being an off cycle means you weren't in the previous intern class. That means you didn't know the people from the previous internship class. You know, the summer analysts of 2006. You didn't know the institution, you didn't know anybody there, apart from the people you interviewed with. So getting into the class really was that great icebreaker day one know you are a hundred other analysts and we were one hundred twenty seven. Yeah, in City's summer,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:31] Where
Chris: [00:20:31] Everything cratered.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:32] But yeah. Correct. Correct.
Chris: [00:20:35] And they get got to meet, you know, a bunch of people from all over the world. And that was, I think, One of the really, truly most inspiring experiences of my life. You know, a lot of people say that. But it was it made a big Impact because suddenly there are a hundred people with you five six weeks, all of you starting at the same time. Everybody else is starting in London, everybody embarking basically on their careers. Yes, there's lots of partying going on the first few weeks, which is obviously good. And but there's also some true social bonding that and that that that these are people that you will see repeatedly through your careers and which if you
Patrick (CEO of WSO):[00:21:19] Got a lot of training. So you guys are stuck in the classroom together, but then
Chris:[00:21:23] You go out there? Yeah, exactly. And listen, you have a project in the last week where you spend your first all nighter at work, which is which is really fun and weird. But if you've never done it before, and obviously it's summer, analysts from the previous year did so, but it was a great experience. Obviously start realizing okay and part of this now, now we work all together. And you know what? You're not the only one there at four o'clock in the morning finishing a book. So all that things came together in the first in the first week and it was it was a great experience.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:53] So did you know you're sorry to interrupt? You were going ECM, right? Did they? Yes.
Chris: [00:21:57] Yeah, that was a direct hire freeze. Yeah, that's
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:01] Typical. Is that typical or so?
Chris: [00:22:04] It was unique, I think because they were looking for something specific, they were typically looking for roughly five or six analysts per year back then. And in this case, there was a clear request for a German speaking analyst to join the team, and I was lucky enough to fall into that. I would say today's practice is more city change law after that. So they merged the ECM, DCM left and teams into capital markets, capital markets, origination and then from about 2009 onwards until about well until about now. To be honest, I'm not too sure exactly what the latest developments are, but until now, everything was hired, you know, for Capital markets directly and then you rotated within capital markets. So that was definitely a change in hiring.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:56] So you're hired, you didn't have the summer internship before, but you still felt like you Bonded with a lot of your
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:01] Fellow and new analysts. Tell me a little bit about those first few months on the job in terms of was it immediate ramp up of long hours or was it you feel like giving you a little more seasoned? You could handle it or tell me a little bit about that, whole transition for you because you were a little older than some of them?
Chris: [00:23:19] Yeah. Well, yes, I'd say so. Yeah, I'd say slightly. One of the older ones in the class, but not the oldest. Definitely so. But I think there are two elements I think that come out of it. Number one was I used to working late. Yes, from university. Definitely. You know, that's the thing I thrived at. Excel at that, that pushing through the night and working on a on a on a report, on a paper or something like that for universities. And to be honest, I'm a bit of a last minute person, so it would be most of my fault for that. But that's a separate debate. Number two, I think the ramp up or the shock I expected it, you know, And I think the key message there is you're coming into this industry, there is automatically kind of an expectation of long hours long work and not necessarily because something's inefficient, just because it's the way we work together. So you have multiple teams on transaction, multiple teams on pitches. Everybody needs to go through their own cycles, finish paperwork, multiple hierarchies to go through the people who sign off on the elements, and it just takes its time. And I think in reality, as would be great if we're all done at midnight, typically that's not always the case. And I think, you know, my first week, clearly until it Worked, I was out by seven. And I think for my second week on, I was pushing past dinner into the midnight hours, grabbing a cab around midnight, 12 30 on average and then the first few already, you know, two three o'clock in the morning that that came around soon afterwards. But again, I think the one factor that that changes that is, you know, the band to the camaraderie of everybody being there at the same time, which is clearly an experience people don't have in today's world, Right? We're all in you. Some people call it bullpen basically the best. So they are for the analysts. You know, you'd see other people are there. You don't feel alone. And I think today's world where obviously everybody is stuck at home on Zoom or not or just emails, you feel much more isolated from all that. So every time you do see seniors in Wall Street kind of getting back people back to work. Yeah, there's clearly an element there of that
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:54] Recent work from home or from home be pretty dramatic, dramatic negative impact on everyone's psyche, including the analysts and associates. There's the survey conducted, I Think, a month ago or to, you know, kind of piggybacking off what the 13 analysts did at Goldman illustrated that it was it was bad, especially for first year is not even not as much for second year because they had that relationship. Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see how this summer Goes and what the what the difference is based on, like some that are still virtual versus not. But exactly so you're kind of you're ramped up quickly. Tell me a little bit about how things progress through your first few years and then did you know you're going to stay on after working so many hours in your analyst years? It was, it was like a pretty rigorous team. Are you guys doing? I assume you're super Busy, but just give me a little bit about great financial crisis happened. So like, yeah, that's scary at certain point.
Chris: [00:26:51] That was, I think that was definitely a surprise. So, you know, looking back, I think admittedly, I didn't really get what was coming in back in twenty. You would you would look at some strategy reports. People are talking about credit crunch tightening of credit. And then in the beginning of 2008, Bear Stearns collapsed and was sold to, I think JP back then for it was initially first a dollar and then it went for six dollars. And I think there was quite a big shock. People know people would say, oh my God, that's the start of, you know, proper Crisis. And as a first Round, you just look at and you're like, Really? I mean, you know, is it a bad? Everything seems to be still working. And then through the summer, it became clear something serious was going on. Something serious is going on. And I do remember, obviously, I think it was September 15 in 2008, looking across the street to Lehman, seeing people come out, you know, people and meet. Rooms across the street that were in our own meeting room talking about what this means and clearly the message was, you know, be there for Your clients, be smart, learn a lot and share that information. And so during that time, you know, was much more of a sponge rather than doing a lot. Clearly, the IPO market was closed, markets were partially in free fall, and we were starting to already look at what the impact would be for a lot of the banks in Europe and covering Germany, Switzerland, Austria. You know, it was a big focus on clearly what was happening in Germany, what was impacting the Swiss banks and just really try to keep up with some of the latest news around that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:40] Did you think that There would be cuts coming through to that, the analyst level at all? Or were there customers? There were some cuts or no?
Chris: [00:28:47] Yeah. So I think back in September, it was I think people were still Unclear. You know, and I think there were some weekends you felt not sure if the bank itself would be impacted or not. So a lot of use happened on the weekends, clearly because that was the only time markets were closed and a lot of decision makers could just really work through that. Yeah. And then at some point, clearly the news came through. Cuts were going to happen and then back in, I think it was about November. The rumour mill turned into redundancies will happen. And then I think it was a beginning of December when these were announced. And that was that was some really dark days there because they were, I think, twenty five or thirty percent of the tax cut. Huge cuts and really significant really impact on the floor and people being Just called on the desk said come to the meeting room and know, sorry to let you go kind of situations. Our Christmas party was relatively. Dark then, and I Remember
Clearly there was nothing done externally, and it was organized by one of the senior MDS in his place, which was actually very nice touch just to make a point about, you know, this is about holding together and being part of a family almost rather Than, you know, just constantly, completely. So but Then, you know, dark days also mean sometimes opportunities. The team structure changed. I was basically now working directly with an M.D.. Hmm. And that obviously gave me a lot of opportunity to because now between me And the M.D., there were no people in between. Yeah, I had to be associates, BP and director, as well as out of this at the same time,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:41] Like, we were a little bit older. You were ready for it. Yeah, I was always ready for it. So you're only a year in right when this all happened.
Chris:[00:30:49] I was I was in the year end, and that was obviously around one and a half years and now when everything changed a bit. Right. But that Still meant, you know, put your sleeves up and start working and
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:01] Bonuses just completely just zeros across the board.
Chris: [00:31:04] No, no, no, no. They were they were there, obviously, and analysts are always taken care of. You know, it's not something at the end Of the day, you know, it's a small amount for analysts to worry about. So they weren't really affected. Yes, of
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:17] Course. You remember around what it was?
Chris: [00:31:20] Oh yeah, I do. I do. I think in my first year it was. But then again, the bases were also much, much lower. So your listeners should
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:29] Look at numbers. Yeah. What was the yeah, I mean if inflation to right? But what were the what was the baseline?
Chris: [00:31:36] So I think the base was I started with thirty six pounds, thirty six thousand pounds. Yeah. And I think I made thirty five or thirty six bonus in the first year. So about seventy two or something, almost like a hundred percent bonus
Chris: [00:31:49] 2%. So that was that was that was a top performer first year. Second year was a top performer and I think it went up from thirty six to like Forty or forty five and then Made, I think it was about twenty five or twenty eight, something like that. Yeah, so it went down,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:06] Even though it
Chris: [00:32:07] Went down. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So it was definitely a fraction of the.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:14] But the fact that you didn't get you kept your job and you now have all this opportunity. It's not necessarily. Was it necessarily a direct personal hit to you?
Chris: [00:32:22] Exactly. I think. And you're, you know, as an analyst, let's be honest, you know, the money you're getting is good. You know, you can't fault it. It is. You got a flat, you're going to God, you've got a job, you're feeding yourself, you've got your dinners at work anyway. Yeah, you don't have much overhead. So it's not it's not a big problem. And I think that's the other thing to remember about is it's, you know, at the beginning, It's not it's not the money same. At the beginning, of course, always look to the later years and yes, the opportunity was there. So if somebody asked me, would you want to change at that point in time or because everything had changed? No. And now is the opportunity. Grab a chance to be much more beyond what I was working at know I was an analyst to. And now it could be in an associate or VP kind of character, lead executions directly. And I grabbed that opportunity and we
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:17] Started doing that right away,
Chris: [00:33:19] Correct. And my MD was supportive there as well, mentoring, helping me clearly. He also had to roll up his sleeves. But then again, we're in the middle of one of the worst crises ever. So he was in was probably a very similar mode, you know, happy he was still there. Everything was working out. He pushed on. So, you know, it was it was just a kind of get it done kind of attitude, which was which was great.
Patrick (CEO of WSO) :[00:33:45] Did your hours kind of go up after those cuts or do you think? Yeah, definitely.
Chris: [00:33:48] Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, there was an element of clearly less business in equity capital markets because initially the IPO came to a complete standstill. But then in Europe, we do it a lot of rights issue work, recap, work for all of the banks, recap work for some of the bigger corporates
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:07] Who would be explained. What can you explain? Why recap work as
Chris: [00:34:11] Well recaps or recapitalization? So you're basically re-establishing the equity base, raising equity capital in big size? So one of the large transactions we did was actually Proposal one. Be back then,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:27] You know, what are you talking about, like secondary offerings and stuff like
Chris: [00:34:30] That we offer? That's correct. So it typically in Europe, there are two ways to do it. You do an accelerated overnight offering and you do it in a quick, accelerated book build. One of the first transactions I worked on was actually that one was a one and a half billion M&A financing done for Conti Continental, the German alpha supplier. When they bought Siemens video business, they raised one and a half billion euros in. About 30, 40 minutes, which back in 2007 was obviously a great transaction at the right point in time. Yeah, later we did a lot more work around rights issues. The rights issues are basically very typical structure in Europe, where you were. Every existing shareholder has a pre-emptive right to purchase a new share at a cheap price. These are obviously great arbitrage opportunities for hedge funds, so that's why they love and go short and then cover yourself with the rights issue, either with cheap rights or actually new shares. So these transactions have kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy work out extremely well. And then also some more funky structure. So in 2010, as mentioned, we were helping Volkswagen rival the Volkswagen Porsche structure. Back then, your listeners will be more familiar with the short squeeze On GameStop. But back then 2010, that's the original short squeeze when Volkswagen was one of the most valuable companies in the world when Porsche attempted to do a takeover that that didn't really work out with. I'm looking for the correct word. I mean, it's basic contracts for differences, but total return swaps tsar's so derivative Structure that gave them Porsche nearly 30 percent of the shares in Volkswagen that had to be unravelled. So that required a special structure, a rights issue. Volkswagen was also restructuring themselves to both shoulder, you know, the attempt to take over, as well as a new strategy, a multi-brand strategy. Basically, the Volkswagen of today that we're very Familiar with Audi and Lamborghini and Porsche in between the mix that was basically founded in those days when they had to really kind of reconfigure the business So. Um, yeah, so a lot of the work in the years afterwards was recaps and then twenty ten twenty eleven also did a big cap increase for Commerzbank, did a lot of work and buys them also obviously on an associate analyst level. I'm not trying to take here any thunder. So a lot of it, my work is predominantly actually preparing the pitch books and advisory books rather than actually talking. But clearly a lots of opportunity to meet clients, learn about the clients and especially on the working level, also connect with them. So from there you learn a lot. And look, I
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:37] Think a lot of things shift. I mean, that's the year for your five. Are you still just the only one working with the same exact person?
Chris: [00:37:44] Correct? Yeah. So obviously, now there's analysts below me, there's interns below me, and obviously you start training them up and getting them going. And it's the magic element. You know, the better you train up your interns and analyst, the quicker you can focus on all this stuff than basically, you know, checking spreadsheets and market reports, et cetera. So that's a big part. And that's actually also kind of why I’m doing this, Patrick, right? Because I do want to I think, you know, I've always enjoyed doing Recruiting, doing the Talking about the job, highlighting some of the realities rather than just the marketing speak because I think it is an extremely fulfilling career. It makes it's an absolutely fun job as so much diversity in it and, you know, change every single day. But it's not all like written On all of our recruitment posters because There are there are some hours you are two o'clock, three o'clock in the morning and you need to kick yourself and say the book needs to be done in an hour, fight through the tiredness, fatigue. Get there and get it done with. And sometimes you get called in on a Saturday or Sunday to work. And back then there were no such thing like protected weekends. And you know, you you'd be there on a Saturday afternoon after somebody said, Listen, could you take care of a market update for me, the next two or Three hours? And that was just natural and normal.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:16] So it became a little bit better. So you're going 80 plus 90 plus hour weeks.
Chris: [00:39:21] Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, it was starting some analysts under you better, but it still would be some very long nights, obviously, because you're still there. And I always took the approach that if analysis the Office, and it's not. And, you know, there's some supervision, support guidance need it's better from there than if it's Just sitting at home, you know, working on a BlackBerry because it's more direct, it's more immediate than, you know, you know, priority was there.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:48] So that was essentially you became director. That's right. So tell me about the progression in terms of, yeah, I'd love to hear progression in terms of just like years, it took for each for title change. Not that it necessarily changed what you were doing day to day right away, but then also specifically how managing people became because it was like you said, it sounds like you're pretty hands on like you were there with them in the trenches, which is great. And then specifically, tell me a little bit about if you can share a ranges of pay doesn't to be Exact, but just in terms of like where things where you saw the big jumps. Yeah, sure.
Chris: [00:40:25] Look, I think the so I Started 2007, I got promoted to a two analyst sorry to associate in 2010. In the summer. Back then, we had a summer two summer cycle for the analyst classes and then you'd get promoted to associate go to New York for training for a week, which was an absolute, you know, brilliant week. Clearly because all of the US from London were typically three years into the job veterans and we get into these auditoriums filled with fresh grass or business schools coming in with MBAs. But first job, you know, being associate and there was a different, definitely changed mentality. A lot of us saw it as a as a week of holidays, and for a lot of the MBAs, there was a chance of, you know, kicking off the first job. Great experience. So let's just say, let's just say the London. The London kids were typically one. We were in the back row and the ones that the air was trying to make sure that we showed up in the morning in a more or less presentable state. I'll never I'll never forget one of my guys in the class ran out of ran out of fresh T-shirts and ended up walking around the last few days with a big fat know. I love New York tourist t shirt. And yeah, no, that was. There was some really good days. Yeah. So promotion after that half year, you're kind of a stubby year and then you move into the kind of year end January to January cycle. I think the biggest jump for me was definitely a social level where you have a real big jump, you have to cash payments basically of the summer bonus, which you get for working hard in your third year. Yeah, exactly. And then you get paid a stub, which was about 30000 pounds for the next half year, for the next half year with absolutely, you know, kind of no kind of performance kind of thing around it. And then you moved on to to analyst at a social progression. And again, I think there you go from, let's say, about 100 to 150 relatively quickly pounds again. T comp. Yeah. So yeah, I can roughly. And again, these numbers might be slightly different in today's world
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:44] or Higher now, but not. Yeah, but. And so and then from there, the VP was there another big it? Probably not as big a jump in base, necessarily, but potentially bonus.
Chris: [00:42:56] But again, both start progressing up continuously. And VP definitely were some of the clear better years. Also, because in your career, that's basically when you have a lot of skills, but a lot less focus on P&L and delivery. And you're in a in a stage where obviously very focused on retention as in progress towards director level and then director, I guess you're a lot more in competition with the other directors directly. So once you had direct, it is no more kind of director one to three four in a pay grade perspective because you're basically competing with the potential next and be as a director and therefore, you know, you're being compared like that. Yeah, which is which is kind of kind of a good thing, but that that obviously is the most significant step. And I'll say when I also all switches between the levels were relatively straightforward, almost Mechanic until I got to director. That's where I really now. I think it used to be and where it was, you know, when I Started people, said analysts to associate and director $2m to complicated ones, everything in between his mechanic. Yeah, I think it's changed in as far as it's now a lot more under review. People are much more mobile. There's a lot more looking. Is there potential really good talent that you want to move quicker through the ranks and vice versa
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:30] Or not as structured? Now there's they're actually looking at the. John saying, Hey, should we accelerate this process, we don't lose them or
Chris: [00:44:37] Vice versa, shall we? Should we hold somebody back? Because maybe, maybe something's missing there, which is an interesting difference Because I think some of us still have the mentality. You have to move on. You know, otherwise it doesn't really work out. And at the same time, it just doesn't happen at the same pace like it used to be.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:55] So you mentioned pal. Tell me about in terms of like equity capital markets. What is that? Obviously, it means like bringing in your own business. But how did you? Were you starting that a little bit as a VP? I mean, obviously you're getting a ton of client interaction at that point, right? Are the MDS like letting you handle some of that? Or is it more like, hey, you have to go drum up your own business? And how do you even do that?
Chris: [00:45:15] Yeah, yeah, no, no. I think I think it's obviously at a larger Institution, the bulge bracket like Citi, you're not looking at something where a VP is forced to step out every single day and say, you know, what did you do with your clients? You're building up long term relationships. If you execute a deal for a private equity house, you will know the people there. You'll be the principal or potentially the partner. If you're lucky, be have enough interaction and they will remember you. So in the next pitch
Comes around and you're on the Page, somebody will say, Oh, look, I know that person. I remember that was a great execution at the end worked out very nicely for us. That's how it comes together. And yes, obviously, you know, the request Is be out there, think about it. What kind of business can be you're expected today as a CBP associate to start being smart and start thinking about originating deals as well. It doesn't mean necessarily. You know, you have the link to the senior partner because realistically, you won't have it. It's more a question of are you part of the origination effort or you're keeping up to speed? Are you asking your MD, VP director, whoever is above you? Hey, have you actually checked out the situation recently or does this news flow? Send it around a team, guys. Should we do something here? Or, you
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:36] Know, but you're not actually like, they're not giving you a team or any resources to actually do anything until you're as a director, maybe as a director. Correct. Yeah, yeah. But as a VP, It's less it's less common that they're giving you any sort of analyst or resources or anything.
Chris: [00:46:49] I would I would do the Dallas resources there, but you're kind of more in an interaction of we're working together on something rather than a reporting line, almost kind of kind of situation. Yeah, yeah, sure.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:02] Ok, so you're and then pay up into director. I assume the bonuses get really big, which is great. So, yeah, I'd love to just care about that kind of final stage for you. How was it? Was it difficult for you? I mean, because you sounded like you were pretty hands on and like the operational aspect? Yeah.
Chris: [00:47:21] Well, I think I think that that everybody has their own style and everybody should develop their own, their own style. You need to know what you like. I I always tried to be very hands on with down to the analysts, you know, trying to understand what's going on. Other people are more, you know, some of my other peers are much more, you know, handed off to a VP or associate, potentially not there. I think there's always a benefit in a team understanding what's going on. You know, every, every down to every junior understanding, what are we trying to achieve? It's not always possible because everybody's super busy and people are sometimes extremely under water. But the ultimately that is the goal that. Every last person and team should understand what their role is. And yeah, you're not making me not picking up the phone to CEO, Cfo and I'm not doing it either. But, you know, and even as an analyst, you're valuable input in getting Something done no matter what, because you are a resource, you're supporting an overall effort and making sure, for example, pitch book is still putting thoughts on the piece of paper, right? It is a salesman. Here is the product of the analysts to produce a pitch book, and that is such an important element of the marketing effort of a bulge bracket bank.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:46] I don't want to keep you around too much longer, but one thing that kind of strikes me is just it's super rare nowadays to see a run like yours of over a decade at one firm. Do you feel like things are changing? That's going to be much more rare, even more rare going forward? Or do you feel like there's still going to be people like you that kind of come up through the ranks and any specific thoughts of why you stick around so much? I mean, maybe it was timing in it. That kind of middle ranks kind of opened up because of the great financial crisis. Now is the perfect kind of runway, but I would love to just hear your perspective on that.
Chris: [00:49:20] Sure. Do I think? Do I think it's more uncommon? I don't think so, necessarily. I know a number of people across the organization have been there. Yeah, I would say from the people who started off the hundred people in my first analyst class, the 70 in my social class, there aren't many there. But one of the guys that are ahead of us indicate that city right now in Europe is was my analyst class. We started off together. So, you know, five percent, six percent, maybe 10 percent still within the organization somewhere. And that has lots of reasons, right? Personal reasons. Some people leave the industry just because they've had it or they have a different opportunity, or they would like to move into something completely different. Some do it consciously on health reasons, clearly right, which is something you people just do nowadays. It's fine. We had people leaving year after one year just saying it's just not my thing. And to be honest, it's great to see that kind of honesty, self-honest and just saying, Look, it just I don't want to do it. It's not what I want. If feel happy with others, obviously take exit opportunities, be it, you know, into the hedge fund or private equity world. I don't think this is one path through it. And I think, you know, sometimes what's dangerous is a kind of an expectation. There is no, you know, you do two years of this, two years of that and then you end up afterwards at Blackstone or KKR or something like that. They're, you know, they're not waiting for you, right? So ultimately, it's about doing the right things for yourself as you progress with it. For me, one of the things was I never felt urged or in too much. To strongly to about moving ship, right, because it would be a different place, more or less the same people, we deal with slightly more pain, maybe you're quicker, but up the ranks, but at the end of the day? I felt comfortable, and I like the organization I love City, I mean, it's a great place. Got a great career out of it and met a lot of people, and that's ultimately what was important for me. So it
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:34] Actually takes a lot of confidence to do that because oftentimes people will jump, but you can end up rocking the boat and actually, you know, you think it's better over in the other area in that specific group, you go there and then suddenly you're your boss and ends up being worse or whatnot. Or, you know, you get more demand, it becomes more demanding or worse. They don't they don't view you as positively and you don't know what the dynamics are going to be like.
Chris: [00:52:00] The policy can go in all different directions, right? I think the most important thing is and the other thing is obviously had a great mentor with the idea that I was working with. He's now the head of ECM at one of the European banks. I didn't follow him, but I had an immense amount. I learned from it super great for what he did. And ultimately, you know, I felt really comfortable and I just thought I can change that, right? So that was awesome. Was the move for you.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:52:31] And if you don't have to share, if you're not comfortable, there's the you don't say where you're going, but with a move for you kind of start the process of kind of starting to look. Was it more around losing that mentor a bit?
Chris: [00:52:41] No, not necessarily. I think it's also just getting on my own feet. There's a number of person issues to moving, moving geographically. So it all comes together. And again, it was the right thing to do for me to, you know, to start to change my position and move on. So from that perspective, really, yeah, A conscious decision and looking forward to the future. So that's what
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:53:11] That's a similar role. It's just going to be a similar role somewhere else.
Chris: [00:53:14] It's going to be a similar role. Exactly. Very cool. So you want more to follow on my on my LinkedIn at some point, for sure.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:53:22] For sure. Now we appreciate that. Anything else before we call it anything else, any other words of wisdom you'd like to share for the younger audience kind of looking at there?
Chris: [00:53:30] So I typically I have I have two or three things do's and don'ts, maybe that I've picked up over the years and it starts off with, you know, the whole topic of how do you reach out on LinkedIn to people and ask questions, which is, by the way, not a bad thing, but I wouldn't expect too much of a positive reaction to that because. A lot of people just ignore it or just don't respond, so you feel bad about it. Number two, sometimes the approaches are so badly fumbled. I mean, people just reach out, send me a CV and say, please review is like. That's not my job. I've got a day job, it's I need to do
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:54:12] Banking business, I get that. I get that a lot. Sometimes people. Please review. Yeah, give me some feedback. And sometimes, you know, if it's if there's a certain message along with it, that makes sense, I will. I agree. But just consider I mean,
Chris: [00:54:25] All we all have real jobs out there and as much as we are approachable, maybe unlinked, and it seems so that's not networking. Networking, really. What makes the difference is go to the recruitment event because if I go somewhere, I've taken out half a day or day to spend time with students and potential recruits make an impact. Don't talk about, you know, First question should not be how
can I shortcut? Can I become an associate tomorrow? No. You know, it's you know, there are set there are set targets by the by the by the banks. The recruitment process are relatively, you know, firm in that sense, if you're an undergrad, you're going to end up an analyst. If you've got an MBA, you become an associate. It is what it is. You know what? Your two years of three years of hard work and you'll be at the same position without a business school or a debt or anything like that. So that's something positive to look forward to, at least, at least in Europe. I'm aware of us slightly different. Yeah.
Then prepare yourself for referring to views, right? There's nothing worse than having people come in. Not a hundred percent sure what City does, for example, or potentially even say, up into 20 other banks. That's great. I know you're going to interview a lot of banks. That's fine, but at least give me the illusion that you've just come for this one here today. Well, it's very important is as interviewer, I don't spend much time obviously looking at the CVS because I've been working. So make sure you have a one minute pitch. When you start, you should be able to talk immediately, who you are, why you're here, what your what's the key things and we can dive into all, all the other things be interesting. I think that's Important to, you know, I got hired at Citi on the Basis of being able to talk about my archaeology degree so the extracurricular can be a way to connect with your interview. An extremely good way, which means please don't come up with crazy stuff, but everybody is the chairman or chairwoman at their finance club. And then if you talk to me about the finance club investing in Apple or Tesla, You know, that's two standard, you know, talk about some really interesting and show while you're brilliant and all that. And last but not least, you know, don't take don't take rejection as a disappointing point or anything. Move on. You know what? In the business, you have lots of times you're going to lose a pitch and you're going to have to just. Create the next pitch book for the next day, because that's how the business works, so if you're struggling to deal with rejection at the start, you're never going to be a good banker.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:57:10] For sure. I love that, Chris. Thanks so much for your time and sharing all of your wisdom, and good luck with your with your next step. Thank you so much. Patrick Dirisu and thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.
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