WSO Podcast | E56: LMM Private Equity from a Non-target + Commercial Banking
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Member @coder32 shares his path from a non-target background to a lower middle-market (LMM) private equity shop in the south. Learn how commercial lenders are getting very aggressive with pricing and covenants to win deals and when he knew it was time to make his jump to private equity.
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WSO Podcast (Episode 56) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis. Your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me! As I talked to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, member Coder32 shares his path from a non-target university background to a lower middle market private equity shop in the South. Learn how commercial lenders are getting very aggressive with pricing and covenants to win deals and when this specific user knew it was time to make his jump to private equity. Enjoy. Coder322, thanks so much for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast.
Coder32: [00:00:57] Yeah, thanks for having me.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:58] So it'd be great if you could just give the listeners a quick bio.
Coder32: [00:01:03] Yeah, so I went to kind of the epitome of a non-target school for undergrad and a south private liberal arts school. I didn't really know kind of what I wanted to do first. So I kind of went broad brush, got my basics and kind of fell in love with, you know, economics and finance. Mm hmm. So I mean, it's not a big business school, given that it's about twelve hundred kids and there's about 40 people in the whole finance program or business school small. Yeah. Yeah. So it was kind of tough figuring out what I wanted to do career wise, you know, even though I knew that I wanted to do something in finance. Mm hmm. So, you know, one of the things that you know, I really tried to focus on was, you know, leveraging any kind of connections that we had through the alumni base. And one of the alumni was a former.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:10] So before we before we jump in and before we jump into that, just give broad brush strokes of like what kind of where you been and then we'll dive into that stuff.
Coder32: [00:02:18] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So upon graduation, you know, I got an offer at a kind of a super-regional bank, credit focused commercial bank in the South. Perfect. You know, working on, you know, small business transactions like credit and also, you know, kind of middle market leveraged loans. Yeah, I worked there for about a year and a half and decided I wanted to go over to the buy side. So with a lot of grit, you know, I kind of made my way into the buy side and the lower middle market. So currently I'm at a boutique private equity firm focusing in the lower middle market kind of two million to 10 million EBITA firm sizes. Awesome.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:13] And that's where you're at today, right?
Coder32: [00:03:15] And that's where I'm at second year here.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:18] Perfect. So going back, like let's go back to undergrad. And so you were saying you fall in love with economics, finance and you, but you're not really sure what you want to do. So tell me about the thought process. Were you getting internships and like your sophomore year or your junior year? Or were you just kind of lost?
Coder32: [00:03:36] Yeah. So I mean, like I said, like not to hate on the school. It's a great school learning a lot there. It's just not a good business program. It's fair. There's not really a career services center that's set up to give you internships, right? You know, one time, one time decided that I wanted to go into finance. And the closest summer analyst program that I found was my dad's best friend, CEO of a GPO company. And so I went to work for him over the summer.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:07] What's? What's a GPO company?
Coder32: [00:04:10] Oh yeah. Group purchasing organization for health care. Got it. So they consolidate like, you know, office gloves for acute care, you know, large hospital systems. They just they buy it all together. So you get a lower.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:25] Makes sense. Ok.
Coder32: [00:04:27] Yeah. So I did that and. Wasn't really big fan on health care. But now I want to do something more financing while I was there. My mentor told me that I really need to focus on looking for investment banking. And this was my junior year, right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:47] They were telling you that in your junior year,
Coder32: [00:04:50] They're telling me that in my junior year. Yeah, OK, look. Looking back, obviously you can laugh at it, but no green
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:58] At the time. Who was this meant? No, it's OK. I mean, I barely knew what banking was when I was a junior, although I got to say, you know, I'm much older than you. So two thousand one is when I was my junior year and I was like, What is this? What is this banking thing? And luckily, it wasn't too late for me, but it's much more competitive nowadays, so I'm surprised. So you hear about banking junior year. Who's this mentor of yours?
Coder32: [00:05:22] Yes, he's a CFO of the company, he did. He did two years, some analyst program at a bulge bracket. Got it. And, you know, he kind of told me he's like, you know, listen, like, you know, you know, investment banking analysts like, sucks, right? Like, you're going to be working 100 hours a week, all this kind of stuff. And like, you're a little late to the party. But if you can get in at, you know, kind of a, you know, not a bulge bracket firm. You know, you might have a shot.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:55] Right, right. And so kind of what did you do with that information? What and when in your junior, when in your junior year was this like at the beginning? I hope
Coder32: [00:06:05] So Yeah, this was the beginning. But cool. So yeah, so sophomore going into junior year that summer was when I did the internship. Got it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:17] And that's when he told you, like, Hey, this is what you need to do.
Coder32: [00:06:21] You're late, but try again.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:23] Ok, so then what? What did you do? You wanted to career services?
Coder32: [00:06:27] Yeah, I went back to career services, asked them about it. And you know, the best thing that they could come up with was, Hey, there's a there's an alarm that works at Goldman. You may be able to, you know, see if he can do something. So I called him, you know, he's in wealth management. He tried to connect me, and everybody I talked to kind of said, Hey, you're a little late to the party. But um, you know, basically better luck next time you can apply, but don't expect anything, right? So, you know, I kind of gave up on the investment banking dream. And so next best thing that I could think of was commercial banking. Mm hmm. And the reason I wanted to go in commercial banking was just because like, Hey, I'll get, you know, broad industry experience. I'll be able to look at companies with a credit lens to where eventually I can come. You know, maybe, you know, I'm not going to get a lot of underwriting experience in commercial banking.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:28] So tell me how I should even think about commercial banking. That's a pretty broad term. So like just for the listeners, and I'm not very familiar with it as well. So maybe you can educate me when I say commercial. When you say commercial banking, do you mean? I mean, because so you were in the credit side, right? So you were looking at potentially the bank lending out to, you know, middle sized businesses that needed a loan for XYZ project or whatever. But is that typically what's referred to when we say commercial banking or is there kind of other things?
Coder32: [00:07:57] Yeah, this is so this is the senior side on the capital stack for it can be elbows, but got it terminated in half. My job,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:07] Term loans and all that stuff. Lower, lower yield. Less of the sexy stuff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the safer capital. Ok.
Coder32: [00:08:15] We want all the securitization. No risk.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:20] Got it. Ok.
Coder32: [00:08:21] So yeah. So that's where I kind of learned about more about private equity was when I was working on these, you know, middle market elbows and doing the term sheets for it. And you know, everybody in commercial banking was, hey, like, you know, private equity is so sexy. Like this awesome.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:41] Is it hard to work on those deals? Is it hard to work on those specific deals like or is it just because you were at a good commercial bank that had a lot of private equity clients?
Coder32: [00:08:52] Yes, so like if you're going to be, you know, large commercial banks and we were the smaller size of the large, you're going to get a lot of, you know, looks at elbows. Just because these private equity firms issue term sheets or they try to get as many term sheets as possible to get the lowest price right for the most flexibility.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:13] Mm hmm. And so were you guys pressured to like, loosen your covenants and drive your price to the ground? Like that's an interesting question. Is like what were the standards and did it deteriorate? Or are they are they crazy right now? Do you want to give some just color on that? Because I think that's interesting right now
Coder32: [00:09:30] Where we're at in the cycle. So, yeah, so right now, it's a hot market. I can kind of give you a little buy side in the credit side perspective of it. Yeah, we're we at the commercial bank, you know, you kind of know the market and issuing, you know, two times leverage on a, you know, an EBITDA of, you know, two million plus you can you can kind of go it prime, right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:04] And where is prime right now? You know, I don't even know where it's right for
Coder32: [00:10:09] Five or five. Ok.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:11] Ok, go ahead.
Coder32: [00:10:14] So yeah, so you can go around prime and you know, we even had some people, some competing banks that would issue, you know, you know, senior debt below prime, you know, 50 bits below, which is getting aggressive and they're just trying to win on price. And one of the flexibility standpoints that you can have is like a credit guy is, you know, lowering the excess cash flow sleep out of the gate.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:44] Mm hmm.
Coder32: [00:10:45] So, you know, most of these guys are trying to get, you know, a minimum of 25 percent of that starting in like the second quarter of the transaction.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:56] And how much do they typically sweep? Excess cash flow? How much do you 50 percent of it, 20 percent of it.
Coder32: [00:11:02] Yes, it's it steps up, you know, it can go like start to, you know, 25 percent and 50 percent. Yeah. It really depends on the riskiness of higher risk, obviously higher sweet excess cash flow. Sweet.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:16] Yep, OK.
Coder32: [00:11:18] So one of the ways to be competitive is just to lower that or mitigate it for the first year. Yep. And that's really what we saw on the credit side on being competitive was the more you can move around or lower that sweep, the more likelihood you would get of winning that. That makes sense.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:40] That makes sense. Ok, so sorry, I just a little tangent there because I found it interesting. And so specifically, you're so you're at that you break into. Let's talk about before that you did a master's, correct?
Coder32: [00:11:55] Yeah, so, you know, part of I did part time and I started it after I had joined the commercial bank and I did it once we started working on elbows because I wanted to learn more about the process. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:12] So do you feel like that was helpful? I mean, it's still I mean, people will tell you even an MBA from a top school, if you don't have pre MBA private equity experience, it's almost impossible to get in post MBA. Did you know any of this going in? Had you done research? It sounds like you had your sights on PE, even though you were at a commercial bank. Is that accurate, right? Yeah. Ok. So, yeah, so
Coder32: [00:12:35] Yeah, go ahead. So, yeah, so kind of kind of the thought process was, you know, when I when I was looking at where I'm at, you know, I'm at a commercial bank, I'm trying to get over to the buy side. What can I do to better my resume, my skill set to move over? Given that I don't have a traditional background, so you know, one of the things that I thought would help me stand out is getting a, you know, a master of science and finance degree, not from a, you know, a top university, but from a decent university. Still not a target school, but it was local. Mm hmm. So, you know, that's kind of the reason I did the master's program and I did a part time during commercial banking, and then I also started studying for the CFA, just really trying to broaden my skill set so that I would stand out as candidate for a new job.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:30] Ok, so you're let's talk a little bit about first. Before we jump there, let's go back to like when you were applying for these commercial banking, so you thought, OK, commercial banking and then tell me, was it still a struggle to get the commercial banking role? And what were those interviews like that that process?
Coder32: [00:13:46] No, no. Anybody can get in commercial banking. I think that,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:51] Like, where did you even apply? Was it was there any on campus like it was? It just resume drops online somewhere? And how did you even find opportunities?
Coder32: [00:13:59] So, yeah, so at grad school, I saw I definitely saw like them coming on campus and they go around the Texas region on the campus, but they didn't come onto my undergrad. I found them just job searching through, I think. Indeed.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:21] Ok, OK. So you got it actually worked. You did a resume job, you did a resume drop there and it worked. You got it. You got an interview. Was your job? Was your GPA pretty high at your undergrad?
Coder32: [00:14:32] Yeah. I mean, three, seven, three seven. Ok. Extremely well.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:37] And then the interviews was mostly like fit like this. This guy seemed sharp and
Coder32: [00:14:42] You know, yeah. So you know, you have your recruiter call and you kind of walk through like very minor, minor technical, like how do you calculate, you know, quick ratio? And if you pass that you go to there, I guess it's their version of a Super Day, which is you meet with four people, one's a technical interview and then three are mostly fit, OK? And you know, it's a high attrition, you know, pool of analysts. So they're always looking for somebody. If you're confident and know the basics, you know it's a shoo in.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:23] So where are most people going from commercial banking? Like, where are they jumping to next? Because I know you, you ended up going to lower middle market private equity. But to me, that seems pretty rare where most of those people just think, he said. The attrition is pretty high or low. Patricians low. Yeah, yeah. So.
Coder32: [00:15:38] Well, yeah, attrition. Yeah. So out of the 25 people that were in my analyst class, there is one other guy that went to a boutique investment bank. I went over to the buy side and everybody else went to another commercial bank in our junior lenders.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:57] Now, OK? Got it so pretty small. Pretty impressive what you did. So let's talk about it. So you kind of were thinking, I'm going to rebrand myself, you know, I'm going to get a master's in finance. I have a little bit more of the hard knowledge, you know, a little bit more with the LBO process is your thought process, but you're also sitting for the CFA at the same time, which is a little more like, I guess, a little more biased, but it's not really relevant to the P, is it? I mean, so it's kind of surprised me that you would spend so much time. Setting for the CFA, did you end up taking it or passing?
Coder32: [00:16:30] Neatly. Yes, so I took it and going to level two, but you know, the real reason I took it is, you know, just more financial knowledge and know it's more like your asset managers, right? You know, being in a traditional fund setting, it does help. Yeah. So there is that argument and it's really just, you know what? What else is there to do? Get your PhD in finance? Yeah. So it's really just my differentiation tool with it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:02] They got it. So it makes sense. Just it just helps you a little bit more shows that you're a hard worker. You're doing all these things, you're doing the masters kind of part time and you're doing to CFA as well. And did you stack that right after you got the Masters? So you're doing did you jump into the CFA right after? What was the timing looking like?
Coder32: [00:17:19] So, yeah, yeah, right after, right after.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:21] Ok. And so during this whole time when you're getting the master's working, you know, part time and you're working also full time. It's I guess the hours weren't crazy. Was it 40 ish hours a week for the.
Coder32: [00:17:34] Uh, at the commercial bank, yeah. Yes, it's your traditional show, five.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:41] Got it. So 40 shower, you're probably doing another what? 10 to 20 hours a week on the Masters. And then and then OK. So you finish that. You're like, I have more free time again. I can do the CFA. And so at what point do you say I'm ready, I'm branded, I'm going to start networking? Or were you doing it all along?
Coder32: [00:18:01] Yeah, so once I got, you know, a year into the program, the credit analyst program, I got a promotion to senior analyst and you know, the writing was on the wall within six months. You know, the program ends and you'd become a junior lender. If promoted and I knew I didn't want to do that. So, you know, kind of right, when I got my promotion, I started looking to leave.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:28] Got it. And so when that was, how many years that was a year in or so
Coder32: [00:18:32] A year in? Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:34] And so you're worried if you stayed too long, you were going to get kind of pigeonholed and you didn't even want to get to the junior lender position, even though look good if you got promoted fast, because then it's kind of like you're stuck there. Was that the thought process?
Coder32: [00:18:48] Yeah, and it is just, you know, there's a lot of cold calling and the junior lender
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:54] Must process not
Coder32: [00:18:55] Something that I wanted to do. Yeah, and it's, you know, I wanted something that I was more value add than cold calling.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:01] So how did you start? So you get the promotion. How do you start the whole process? You're like, OK, private equity's. My dream, my goal. You wait.
Coder32: [00:19:09] What do you do? The way that I got into commercial banking. So I kind of did a resume drop as you call it, and utilized all my contacts. And, you know, everybody was kind of saying the same thing like, Hey, you don't have, you know, traditional experience, but we like you as a person. Let me introduce you to this person, this person. So I kind of, you know, went around and funny enough, I never had any, you know, private equity connections at all. And so I thought that it was kind of a mystical like you couldn't get in right? So I just, you know, look out, you know, analysts associate level jobs for the buy side. And I found one. I applied and had a few interviews and I was in.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:03] And so what do you think made you stand out? I mean, it seems like weren't there a bunch of bankers going for that same job?
Coder32: [00:20:10] There were, you know, what makes me stand
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:14] Out, no, because no, I mean, it's kind of a generic question, but it just seems surprising to me that they took a risk on a guy from a non target with credit analysts experience at a commercial bank over, say, some kids at. You know, a top middle market bank or something in the region, you know what I mean? It's something from the initial was it something from the initial networking that you feel like you're just good at connecting with people?
Coder32: [00:20:36] Well, I'll just I mean, I'll be candid with you, it's also a compensation issue with lower middle market. It's basically a startup. It's been around for five years. Got it. And you know, they're not going to pay, you know, analysts, you know, investment banking analysts salaries got it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:54] So they're not necessarily looking for the traditional candidate. So it's a way for you to get into the buy side. Got it. Ok.
Coder32: [00:21:00] Yep, yep, exactly. And so I think that's one thing to focus on is, you know, there's actually a lot of these same kind of like very boutique private equity firms around the nation that, you know, have a couple of partners that are spin offs that need some junior guys. And you know, they can train, you know, you up like you don't need necessarily like full like, you know, valuation techniques and everything. Though I had it from my master's degree, I'm just, you know, a cheaper alternative.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:40] No. Yeah, for sure. It's funny. We're working on a role right now, similar very small, smaller, lower or middle market fund out in California. And they even said, like, I don't think we can afford a banker. They're like, we're just looking for, you know, seventy thousand to 90000 all in. And for the Bay Area, that's not making very much. But they understand they're like but I thought it was interesting because for someone super junior, it's actually very it's smart to me to be able to get that experience and take the pay, even maybe a pay cut for some of these people. If you are a banker and you do want to get to the buy side, you want to have that interesting, that type of work and taste it once you have that experience for like a couple of years, and let's say you get promoted at the smaller fund, like there's nothing stopping you from going out and applying that larger funds. Right. So I think it's relevant, you know, and I assume that's what you're doing or are you thinking long term, stay at this fund?
Coder32: [00:22:37] Yeah, that was my rationale going forward, it's like, hey, like none of the men like the elite boutiques are going to like, Take me, right? Yeah, just given my I mean, you can charm them as much as you want, but it's just black and white that they're not going to. So, you know, you just start at the smaller firm and kind of, you know, get your deal experience, work for a few years, you know, maybe get a promotion kind of, you know, prove yourself that you have the capabilities to work in private equity and then you can move forward from there.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:08] And how are your hours there?
Coder32: [00:23:12] So they're usually 70 to 80 hours, oh, so
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:16] Pretty, that's a lot.
Coder32: [00:23:18] Yeah, it's not crazy, but they're not good hours, necessarily.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:22] And do you mind sharing your pay or a range of pay? Is it, doesn't it, to be exact?
Coder32: [00:23:28] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So they give me like, right at six figures.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:32] Ok, so it's not, I assume. Was it a pay jump, though, for you or after the promotion you were making more than that, as the senior credit is?
Coder32: [00:23:42] Yeah. So analyst, you're making like a 65 base with up to a $5000 bonus. That's not really. So you do much.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:52] So it was a page, it was a page out for you.
Coder32: [00:23:55] But it's definitely
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:57] Hourly. Probably not.
Coder32: [00:24:00] Yes.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:01] So basically, you're making about the same hourly, but you're going from about 70 to a hundred thousand, but you're putting in the hours for it, but getting great experience. Let's think of it
Coder32: [00:24:09] As a job anymore. Exactly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:12] And you're not. Yeah, are you? I assume you're not doing the CFA now what these hours you went to level two? No, no. Yeah. So. So it's interesting to me because I feel like there are a lot of these types of opportunities out there for people who don't have the traditional background who are willing to go to the smaller funds that do the deals and the two to 10 million dollar range. And there's a lot of upside in those types of deals, too. Absolutely. It's also hard to get deals done, though, to be fair at that range, because the professionalism of the management teams can be nonexistent and you're doing a lot of hand-holding and it can be a lot of emotions. So it's, you know, it's not for everybody, but if you're if the guys and gals that kind of lead that leave that fund have come from a good place and seem to have good traction, then I think it can be worth the risk for sure.
Coder32: [00:25:05] So yeah, it's also you get a lot of operational experience, you know, working with limited management teams like you're the one in there helping them out also.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:14] So what would you say in terms of I'm still, you know, it sounds like you got in because it wasn't. It was a small fund. It was a startup fund. There was a lot of kind of it wasn't your traditional thing where, like all these bankers were hammering there, would you have any advice in terms of other people who come from, let's say, commercial banking that are looking for these opportunities besides, like just looking online, can they create their own opportunities where it just LinkedIn networking, that type of thing? What would you suggest?
Coder32: [00:25:44] Yeah, I think that, you know, most of these kind of lower middle market firms are they're very networking heavy, so they're in all the major groups, you know, like, you know, we're really big on ACG then. So if you can get like a list from ACG or, you know, go and see websites who are in their upcoming things, ah, and you know, just, you know, find some email addresses. You know, it's it wouldn't be that hard to find all these lower middle market, you know, firms that are looking to hire junior level guys.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:18] I need to go to ACG and just become a speaker there and tell everyone about our new talent choices, our recruiting arm, because it's ridiculous that
Coder32: [00:26:27] No, you yeah, you really do.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:28] I really do. It's just ridiculous to me that they're not all coming to us. It's like we're the perfect match for them. But yeah, I'm not the best at business dev, but I do enjoy these conversations.
Coder32: [00:26:42] Yeah, we're actually looking for another or we will be looking for another junior guy.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:46] There you go. Perfect. Yeah, we'll I'll send you the right after this call. But. So anything else before we call it, you know, you're obviously a little more junior. You haven't gone through many, you know, 10 years of a career yet. But anything you'd look back that you would change. Would you go on to a different undergrad school or did you enjoy your time there? Would you have changed anything along the way so far? Or do you feel confident that you're on the right path?
Coder32: [00:27:13] Yeah, I mean, you know, looking forward, I think that I'm in the, you know, I don't have the pedigree of going to a target school, going to, you know, a good bank and then jumping over to an elite boutique. But I think in, you know, four to five years I can get to the same place that all the guys did. So it's, you know, looking back, no, I don't think I would change it. And it's just kind of, you know, recognition that you don't need to do the typical background to get here.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:48] And is your plan to stay in private equity or the buy side? Or are you thinking potentially maybe go to sell side, go to the bank, go to like a like a boutique, you said.
Coder32: [00:27:57] No, I'm enjoying the cushy lifestyle with the buy side Kush.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:02] I don't know, 70 80 hours. It's not too cushy. That's pretty banking. Junior level. It's true. It's true. Fair enough, man. Well, hey, man, I really appreciate you taking the time for us to kind of share your knowledge and share your path with everybody who's enjoyable. So thank you.
Coder32: [00:28:18] I appreciate it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:19] And to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.
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