WSO Podcast | E77: Late to Recruit for IB -- Jump to Internal Strategy at a BB
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In this episode, @Mentor2020 shares his path to working in investment banking even though he was super late to start recruiting and waiting until his junior year before trying to land a summer internship. How he was able to survive layoffs at his first bank by lateraling to another and why he eventually jumped over to an internal strategy role at a bulge bracket investment bank. Listen to hear the one piece of advice he'd give his younger self...I think we all need a reminder like this every once in a while.
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WSO Podcast (Episode 77) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis. Your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me as I talk to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, Mentor2020 shares his path to working in investment banking, even though he was super late to start recruiting, waiting until his junior year before trying to land a summer internship. How he was able to survive layoffs at his first bank bi lateral link to another and why he eventually jumped over to an internal strategy role at a bulge bracket investment bank. Listen to here the one piece of advice he'd give his younger self. I think we all need to remember a reminder like this every once in a while. Right, mentor, 20, 20, thanks so much for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast.
Mentor2020: [00:01:05] Thanks for having me.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:06] It'd be great if you could just give the listeners a quick summary of your bio.
Mentor2020: [00:01:10] Sure, so I went to a target business school, undergrad business school graduate in 2012. And the reason why I kind of went to a business school is because, like I knew I wanted to do something in business. And I think one of my inspirations was this guy named Muhammad Yunus. I don't know if you've heard of him. He's this pioneer of microfinance in India. And he won a Nobel Peace Prize for that. And so, you know, he really inspired me to really see that you can do a lot of good through business. And so that's why I kind of went that route, and I remember my dad was asking around, you know, his people that he would drive around in the back who were like, you know, Wall Street bankers and whatnot. And he was asking, What's the best school for business? And that's when he found out, you know, these are the list of schools. So that's why I applied to one of them.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:12] Great. Ok, then what happened?
Mentor2020: [00:02:15] And then I was just trying to figure out my where in the world, you know, just figuring out in this vast, well, the business is so many things you can do in there like. What should I do? Right? And I just talked to a bunch of people and, you know, there was a person who was like, my quote unquote sponsor, he's like, he paid for my tuition more or less. And he told me, like, Hey, you know, I was in your shoes like 20 years ago, you know, like what I did in college. If you don't know what you want to do is do investment banking. And so that's kind of why I chose investment banking. How?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:58] And then walk me through that, like what your career was like. You know, don't go into the details, but then did you just stay in banking or let the listeners know kind of how you how you progressed?
Mentor2020: [00:03:08] Yeah. So, you know, taking my sponsors advice, I went to banking. You know, I started kind of late in the process, to be honest. I kind of, you know, didn't really know until I spoke to him, which was already like junior year. And so I didn't really have much prepared. I didn't really like get all my technicals down or all that. So I because I was starting from the back. So, you know, try to brush up as much as I could. And then, you know, got two offers. One was in, you know, not New York and was in New York. And so I decided, you know what? I want to stay close to the of finance, and I went for the New York offer great.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:50] And so then you were there and then keep going and then you eventually train. Yes, I was there.
Mentor2020: [00:03:55] It's a mid-size firm, I would say. And then but then there were some kind of special situations going on with the firm. And so that's why I left and then went to a boutique investment bank, did it for two years. And it was really during that time where I kind of started reflecting on like, you know, really what I want to do. And then during that two years, you know, and really looking at the life that my directors and MDS were having and just asking myself, Is this kind of the life I want it, you know? And really like the way I say my life is really in three buckets. So one is wealth going to the other one's health and the other one's relationships.. I see I see them all is like three different like glass balls, you know, that I'm trying to juggle, right? And if I drop one of them, it'll shatter. And so I was kind of. Feeling like I was, you know, having the wealth quote unquote the wealth piece kind of down, at least the track was kind of there, but then my other two glass balls were starting to wobble quite a bit. And so I realized I wanted a little bit more of a balance and being able to juggle all three of those balls, so to speak. And so that's why I started looking for different types of roles that allowed me to juggle all three of those.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:23] And so you ended up where?
Mentor2020: [00:05:26] So I ended up doing strategy instead strategy.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:29] Ok.
Mentor2020: [00:05:30] Yeah, so I, you know, was looking around at different roles. And when I spoke to a few folks that were doing strategy related roles, it really kind of appeal to what I was looking for because like in terms of the work it was, I think, more of a long term oriented kind of role instead of the way I see, like investment banking. Yes, obviously, like you're trying to build a long term relationship with your client and try to have repeat business. But the way I kind of see is that it's very transaction oriented. You're just trying to get your fee and then move on to the next transaction. While I think for strategy, you allow the projects for like a year or two long a two years long process. And so you really have to be really deep into the weeds and really understand that particular business. And then you don't really see the fruits of your labor until, like, you know, years later. And so,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:28] You know, in this strategy, are you comfortable sharing like what specific part of the strategy it is or the fact that it's a larger firm?
Mentor2020: [00:06:36] Yeah, it's wealth manager strategy, part of a, you know, one of the big warehouses.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:42] Great. Ok, so let's start back. Thanks for that. Can we start now back going? Let's rewind and go back to undergrad? So we got that kind of broad overview, that quick overview. So you're at a top undergrad B school, and almost all your peers probably knew they wanted to invest in banking since birth or a lot of them. So you're coming through here and you're what is it your junior year and you're thinking, Oh, now I want to do investment banking because somebody mentioned it to you as your mentor? Or do you feel like this is impossible? Or do you feel like you're still just because you had the name of a strong, strong school that you could kind of get in? I mean, it obviously worked out for you. You got two offers, but tell me a little bit about that process of why do you think you were so late to kind of warm up to investment banking? Or was it something that you were kind of just weren't sure where else to go? It sounds like.
Mentor2020: [00:07:35] So I think partly I my background is a little bit different from, I would say, the average student body is at my school. I would definitely say most of the average students at my school were more of an upper middle class background. I more grew up in a working class. So, you know, investment banking was something no one ever heard of in my family.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:01] So you mentioned you had a sponsor. Tell me about that, was it? What do you mean by that? Like, you weren't paying? Your family wasn't paying most of the tuition? Were you at like eight? Or was it more like a scholarship?
Mentor2020: [00:08:15] It's a it's a combination of both those that merit because it's more of a need based scholarship. And so usually they would pair you up with a sponsor who would sponsor multiple students who are in need based.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:30] Got it! Ok. And so you had this sponsor who is paying for most, if not all, of your tuition. Tell me how. So this person is he kind of guided you or he
Mentor2020: [00:08:42] He kind of. Yeah. So I I just like to see him once a year, really. And during that, you know, time that I see him, I would just ask him for advice, you know, and I remember the first two times I was supposed to meet him. He didn't show up because very busy guy. Yeah, high up in the finance world. And so it wasn't really until junior year that I really met him for the first time. And so I was like, You know what, this guy, you know, obviously it's very successful. He knows a lot of things, so I only ask him for advice. And so that's why he gave me. You know,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:18] He basically said, if you're not really sure what to do, banking is kind of a great place to start.
Mentor2020: [00:09:23] Exactly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:24] So you after that meeting, you immediately started prepping for investment banking. Did you have a plan before that in terms of what you wanted to do after graduating?
Mentor2020: [00:09:33] I mean, I had kind of an idea that I wanted to do, maybe corporate lawyer, because I kind of I majored in both finance and legal studies at the time. But I was still not. I wasn't sure if I wanted to go that route. So I was still like talking to folks and really understanding like what that entails going in the corporate finance or the corporate law side. And I realized that I liked learning about law, but I don't necessarily think I like the lifestyle per say of becoming a corporate lawyer.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:16] Well, the lifestyle of a corporate lawyer is probably pretty similar to that of an investment banker. So, you know, it's not like you chose an easy path, secondary path. With this advice from this, this really what was sounds like a mentor. Your sponsor was really a mentor to you, even though you only met them. Once you kind of you pushed you and made a big difference in your life in terms of just giving that suggestion. So, yeah, do you feel like it's just so interesting that happens so much when I talk to all the guests? It's so frequent that one conversation kind of changes your life.
Mentor2020: [00:10:49] Yeah. How do I look back? Yeah, quite profound.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:54] I guess it's dramatic. Yeah. And so you kind of switched gears. You said, OK, I'm going to get into this race of investment banking recruiting. And did you feel like lost like you had no chance because it was late and people had already done summer internships? So it was in your junior year, which I assume people had already recruited for their junior summer?
Mentor2020: [00:11:10] Yeah. So I did feel a little bit behind for sure. But then and also it didn't help that I remember distinctly like that year all the kind of bullish brackets and pop firms were saying like, Oh, we don't we're not going to hire anyone more anyone else beyond our summer class. So I'm like, OK, this is going to be tougher than I expected. Yeah. But you know, I didn't like I set my expectations so that I even like, just lock myself only New York at like a top fund. I was like open to just get my foot in the door.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:45] So you apply it. You applied to a lot of different places. You ended up getting some interviews. Tell me about those first few interviews. Did you did you get like, So how were you applying? Was it all through still on campus drops? Was it because obviously your school gets a lot of companies visiting because there's a lot of top students there? But tell me, where is it just where most of your interviews through that process?
Mentor2020: [00:12:08] Yeah, it was mostly through on campus recruiting.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:10] And what would you say your hit rate was given that you didn't have that track record of chasing banking since you were a freshman?
Mentor2020: [00:12:19] It was quite low, I'd say. Maybe like, I don't know if I had to make in a while, but I think if I say like maybe of one hundred jobs, that would get like, maybe like. Aid, I would say that. Like, like eight that were like
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:34] You were you were able to drop one hundred times to different jobs.
Mentor2020: [00:12:39] Well, again, it's not just on campus, I also like right include like LinkedIn or any job postings site.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:47] Would your GPA decent or was it was it lower than some of your competition?
Mentor2020: [00:12:53] I would say my perception was that mine was a little lower, but really I think I was just average for less.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:01] That's just giving some context for the listeners. So you're basically applying your you're getting an occasional interview. Tell me a little bit about the progression, like your first few interviews and how you improved or were you already ready kind of going in?
Mentor2020: [00:13:16] The first few were just bad. I remember, like even though like I read through the guidebooks and just like practice, it still is different doing it the first time in front of a person and you're just nervous as hell, you know? And was, you know, I just bombed like at least the first two or three and like, just learn from each one and just remember, like telling myself to breathe. And just like, you know, these are the questions that I didn't get right or I have difficulty and just like go back to the drawing board and just like redo it and just like repeat it and just rehearse over and over again.
Patrick (CEO of WSO):00:13:54] Did you feel like the or the behavior were harder for you?
Mentor2020: [00:13:59] I think in the beginning it was both, to be honest, it's hard for me to say like both. One was, yeah, a little bit of both.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:08] Ok, that's fair. So you kind of get through this, your your the first few interviews are pretty painful, but then you start getting a little bit better, you start rehearsing and you start grilling more. Are you doing this with friends or you? Do you have a mentor that you can kind of do mock interviews with? Or is it just mostly?
Mentor2020: [00:14:22] Yeah, I had roommates that were willing to do some mock interviews graciously.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:28] Ok, cool. So you did a few with them, got a little more polished and then tell me about like the you started it. Was it later in the process the the offer you ended up getting in terms of?
Mentor2020: [00:14:38] Yeah, it wasn't until like. I think April, yeah, April of junior year that I got an offer
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:47] For a summer internship that that summer.
Mentor2020: [00:14:52] Uh, yes.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:54] So, yeah, that's in today's timelines, that's super late, but so you luckily got something, though, so that's great. So was the idea that this this summer internship would lead to a full time offer? Is that standard? Was that standard at that bank? That's slightly smaller, but it wasn't a bulge bracket bank. But you know, it was it was it standard that they typically give a lot of offers?
Mentor2020: 00:15:12] No, it was not standard. They were just like I said, it was just for me to get in the door. And so no, no, I don't.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:18] I don't blame you for doing it. I'm just curious. So at the end of that summer, what was the what was the offer rate for that firm?
Mentor2020: [00:15:25] There was no offers for anybody. No offers. Ok.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:28] Yeah. You knew that going in. I knew that going at Yeah. But you now had you at least now had a fighting chance going into your senior year?
Mentor2020: [00:15:35] Exactly. That's how I thought about it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:37] Okay, cool. And so tell me about that. Your thought process of while you're working there in the summer, knowing that you're probably not going to get a full time offer? What were you doing over the summer? Besides just working long hours, this was
Mentor2020: [00:15:51] That it surviving, just surviving again the way I set my expectation. So I knew going in is going to be tough for me, for someone who didn't leave, live or breathe this, you know, from the beginning, like a lot of my classmates were. They knew a lot of this before I did. So I just had a lot to catch up on. And so even after work, I would just like try my best to just read up as much as I could and just like, learn about the industry, just hone the skills that they need it. Got it. So you prepare for for time, you know, recruiting.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:29] You're basically like practicing financial modeling, you're reading up on whatever you can even interview courses. I assume you're still practicing your interviews or no.
Mentor2020: [00:16:37] Yes, I was still like because I remember the guidebook I was looking at. There was both the more basic and the advanced stuff. And so I focused more on the basic stuff in the beginning just to, like, get all down just to,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:49] You know, good enough, right? So of course, we we break it into basic intermediate advanced. Yeah, you have to exactly. You have to know the basics.
Mentor2020: [00:16:57] Exactly. So I just got that basically down pat before I even progressed to the next one. Just be enough to, like, get my foot in the door and once I got my front door to spend work on the more advanced stuff.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:08] Do you feel like? Ok, well, I'll we'll go there later, so you basically started you kind of took this internship, so the end of the summer comes along. There's no offers given. When do you start kind of doing your reachout or your networking or your resume drops as soon as you get back on campus or during the summer once you finished?
Mentor2020: [00:17:29] I think I started a little bit right after I was done with my internship because the internship ended around. Early August, and so I have
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:38] It's interesting because a lot of the bulge brackets, like you said, would not even take. They will, even though you went to a target school, they had already kind of had their internship class filled. They're hiring almost everybody from the internship class to filter out their full time class. So what's your game plan or is it just kind of like, Hey, I'm just going to. Spray my resume everywhere and pray.
Mentor2020: [00:18:02] It was kind of that and also like because I knew now that I have an internship under my belt. It should be a little bit easier to get some looks. Yup. And so and also now that I've already, you know, home the basics and know a little bit more of the advance, it should be easier this time, right? Granted, yes, there was the, you know, the secular problems with the bulge brackets at the time.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:30] But you get did you get interviews at like middle markets, banks and stuff like that still?
Mentor2020: [00:18:37] Yeah. So that's where I started. Go from getting, you know, originally from my junior year, just small banks to now more regional size banks. Mm hmm.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:47] Ok, and then so tell me, you ended up getting an offer at a well respected firm and was that surprising or did you feel like you, you were much better at the interviews by this time around?
Mentor2020: [00:19:02] I don't think it was surprising, given I think the work I put into it, so. You know, you get you get what you work for, right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:11] Got it. Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes you need a little luck too. So you're starting there. What's it like when you? Was is it everything you expected in more?
Mentor2020: [00:19:24] Yes, it was definitely more than what I expected. I mean, I hear stories from folks who were older than me and gone through that path. Yeah. And you know, I definitely knew more or less what to expect. But there's definitely like things that you just you never really. Believe it until you see with your own eyes, so to speak.
Patrick (CEO of WSO):00:19:48] You know, yeah, you don't know how painful the sleep deprivation is until you actually go through it.
Mentor2020: [00:19:52] Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like it's easier said than done for yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:56] So you're kind of at this new firm, you're. Obviously, going through training or you're working long hours, what would you say is your average? So this first firm you're at? You were there for a little over a year. Tell me a little bit about what your average workweek is looking like. Is it 70 hours, 80 hours, 90? What would you say or.
Mentor2020: [00:20:17] Was it? I would say, obviously at range, maybe it was maybe like a range was obvious, depending on the season, but I would say, you know, sixty five, seventy hours. So it's not like the worst on the street, but it's definitely like not like fifty hours for sure.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:37] Got it. Ok, so you're working long hours, you're you're basically going through here. Why? Why such a short stint at the first one? It wasn't too short, but you know, a little over a year. What made you kind of start looking to lateral because you lateral to a boutique bank, correct?
Mentor2020: [00:20:56] Yeah. So for this middle market firm, there was some special situation going on with them at the time, whether they were being acquired, so to speak. And so there was a lot of, let's say, layoffs across the board from MDL down. And so morale was very low and people do not want to be there.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:17] And so it was like, were you told that like, Hey, your job may not be here when they come? And so that's why you started looking or was it more like, Hey, the morale is really low, so I should start looking.
Mentor2020: [00:21:29] So when I first started looking at the morale, I thought it was because of morale. But then midway through that was when I was, you know, put on notice, so to speak. Ok, now I really got to push myself to look for something.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:44] And how much time did they give you?
Mentor2020: [00:21:47] To get me to two to three months to remember correctly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:50] Ok, so not bad. It wasn't like they kicked you out that day.
Mentor2020: [00:21:54] No, no, no, no.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:56] So you started looking for other investment banking analyst jobs. So it's tough because you're a year into your year who graduated and you're working long hours. I assume you were doing OK. Did the reviews were OK? The bonus was mediocre, but something right?
Mentor2020: [00:22:13] Yeah, it was okay. Yeah. Relative to my class.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:18] Ok. And so you all of a sudden are back in the market. How are you going about your search right now?
Mentor2020: [00:22:25] So this time I definitely wasn't as spread out geographically, I definitely wanted to stay in New York, and so I focus more on New York firms. I wasn't quite. Peacekeepers say about the size of the firm, but I felt like. One of the problems I was frustrated with that I'm in the middle market firm was that there was so much hierarchy in between. Like I report to an associate before it, to a VP, BP to a director or director me, it was just so hierarchical. And there are just a lot of times where like, I felt like, you know, people in the middle between me and analysts, like there's just a lot of quote unquote value add. And then later on, you find out that the MD didn't want any of that. So I was kind of frustrated with that. And I wanted to work more directly than MD and do more associate type work and be more in the room when there's quiet meetings and all that. So that's why I I was more biased towards like boutique firms to get that kind of experience.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:32] Ok, so you started interviewing and tell me that experience? Was it? Was it hard? Were they still as a lateral? Were they still pushing you on like technicals and asking you, I guess you had a good story as to why you were leaving? I mean, it's pretty, pretty obvious stuff was going down at the other firm. So yeah, that's an easy story to beat. That's believable. But tell me, like how is that process?
Mentor2020: [00:23:56] Yeah, so the process compared to like my junior or my senior year was definitely, I would say easier because when I already had one year of analyst experience, so it's not like I'm fresh out of college with absolutely no experience, and I've never had a few deals under my belt. So they were looking for someone more experienced. And so there was a few firms that, you know, were more open to laterals like me. Ok. And there are definitely, obviously technical tasks all that you know.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:27] But tell me about the test. What was the test like?
Mentor2020: [00:24:31] Well, just like, you know, like a modeling test where, you know, it depends on the firm, some firms did it on a piece of paper or some did it on a computer. You know, it's like a mixture of like that kind of technical questions. Plus, you know, face to face kind of technical questions like, you know, tell me, what's the DCF was a waste of value, a company, all that stuff.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:54] The modeling tests where they would lock you in the room, whatever and give you a spreadsheet was like prompts like almost like an elbow modeling test. Or was it prompts like you're building a three statement model, like a very simple model and you're doing like an M&A transaction and rolling them up?
Mentor2020: [00:25:09] There will be some firms gave me the simplest sailing model, and some did like an LBO type of test, so it kind of varies.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:18] It varied. Ok. There wasn't like any one type of thing, but I'm curious because I haven't heard too many modeling tests for like analysts. So that's interesting to me. I hadn't heard of that. Definitely for private equity. On the LBO, all the other side. Ok, so you're anyways, you're at this boutique for a couple of years or a little under two years. So you're now kind of three years into your almost three years into your analyst tenure as an investment banking analyst. And tell me why. When did you start thinking, Hey, this isn't for me? You had mentioned it a little bit in your intro that you were looking at your, your senior colleagues and saying, Not sure this is for me. Who did you talk to? What? What kind of guided you toward strategy and strategy at a large, large firm?
Mentor2020: [00:26:06] Yeah, so as I alluded to, just the, you know, go a little bit deeper on to what I meant by just looking at my directors and movies or really just my MDS like their lifestyle. So more or less from what I observed, even though, yes, they're out of the office by like five or six. So a lot of times after at work, they're really still working know going to client meetings, going to these conferences and all. So like, it's still really like long hours that they're putting in, you know, it's not like a cakewalk once you're hit empty, you know? So like, that's one thing that that I had, I guess maybe a misconception about that part of once you hit more senior level, that would get easier. But no, it would just be different. It's more of a salesman type job. And so when I look at my personality and just thinking about is this is my personality fit for more of a salesman type of role. Yeah, I realize like this may not be for me because I don't particularly I would say I'm more of an introvert. And so it would be a little bit hard for me to be in an environment where I always am surrounded by folks and I have to be always be energized to speak to people and just be like pumped up. I'm just not the kind of person, you know, you're relaxed.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:25] You're relaxed, like me.
Mentor2020: [00:27:27] Yeah, I'm not that kind of person that feed energy off of other people. I like to be alone sometimes, you know. So, OK, so what?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:34] What brought you to? How did you start in thinking of this? Ok, this isn't long term. This isn't for me. How did you start kind of doing the whole career exploration? Obviously, you're on Wall Street Oasis all day, every day, and I'm just kidding. But like what? Seriously, what? What kind of guided you toward that like? You talk a little bit about your personality, but with strategy, a good kind of match for somebody that's a little more introverted, you think?
Mentor2020: [00:27:59] Um, I think, relatively speaking to a salesman type job strategy is more of a. Obviously there's still you have to talk with management, folks, and still like, you know, deal with
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:13] Clients
Mentor2020: [00:28:13] That worked. It was like clients, if you're working with an external type of consulting type of job. But what I work, what I ended up going to is more of an internal consulting. So it's less definitely not client facing. But you know, your clients are more management executives, so to speak. So it's less salesy from what I see. It's more just like, how do you steer the ship in the right direction so
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:43] Your PowerPoint skills aren't? There's not a premium placed on PowerPoint skills, whereas like if you're in management consulting, doing strategy, you better make it look really pretty for the client.
Mentor2020: [00:28:54] There's still a there's still you still need to produce by your slides because a lot of my colleagues are coming from management consulting backgrounds and so they definitely don't
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:05] Want to make yours look ugly, head.
Mentor2020: [00:29:07] Exactly. I don't want to be the black sheep, so to speak, you know.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:11] Fair. Ok, so you're but that's interesting. Tell me a little bit more. What's the difference between like an internal consulting role like you have in this? So you're doing strategy and you're in a specific division, let's say? Wealth management at a large bank. What's the? Like, what's the difference between that and then going to like a McKinsey or Bain BCG, do you have an opinion of what's different or do you have enough? Like, I going have kind of friends in both where you kind of have an educated viewpoint on that.
Mentor2020: [00:29:40] Yeah. So I personally, you know, never been in a management consulting firm like Bain BCG, but my direct manager used to work at one of those top three consulting firms. And so he's share stories about his experience and also have friends that are also from those firms as well. And so it sounds to me that the difference once you're hitting more of a senior level is you definitely have to be more of a sales oriented type of kind of relationship building type of role. Once you're a senior management levels
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:16] So similar to thinking similar to banking.
Mentor2020: [00:30:18] So yeah, it sounded very similar to banking to me. And so again, going back to what I said about my personality, it just it didn't sound like an appealing thing for me. And so. But when I hear about internal strategy, it's sound a lot less salesy once you hit senior management, and I think that's partly why also my direct manager decided to go from kind of one of the top three consulting firms to more of an internal strategy role as well.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:49] Now I can totally see that where internally you're not kind of put on the spot with clients as much so you're not expecting. It's not all about like wining and dining these clients and making them like you as a person. It's more kind of like, OK, what's the actual value you're bringing strategically internally? But don't you feel like there's a lot of like politics that still go on internally that you need to be good like that, make it harder for an introvert to like, get promoted and all that stuff? You don't. You feel like that's still the case.
Mentor2020: [00:31:17] That is definitely still the case, especially at a large warehouse for there's a lot of. Galore of, you know, egos, so to speak, and so, you know, some people perceive concessions about how to run a business. And even if you show you show the data that proves that this should be the way we should run the business, they still hold on to their beliefs. And so, you know, there's definitely politics.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:46] Yeah, and I think that's probably tougher for introverts, right to navigate.
Mentor2020: [00:31:53] It's kind of the way I say is like, you know, which are the lesser of two evils kind of thing in my head, you know? And like, if I have to choose, you're
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:00] Always going to have to deal with politics, no matter where you are. Right, exactly. At least you don't have to deal with the clients, too.
Mentor2020: [00:32:06] Exactly. That's how I see it, you know?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:08] Ok, that's fair. I was just I was just curious because, you know, it's funny to me because part of me thinks, Do you put as a young person if you feel like you're an introvert? Do you take a path that's a little bit less? That's a little more comfortable for you? Or do you push yourself to become more of that salesperson? Do you work on your presentation skills? You do work on your fear of presenting in front of others in that public speaking and try to become more exuberant. Maybe people feel like, Well, if it's not you, it's not you. And I get it. But I think some of those skills are just so important for a long term career success that sometimes a little discomfort is good for growth.
Mentor2020: [00:32:48] Oh, they're going to be around. I definitely am a big proponent of like pushing past your comfort zone. And definitely I'm not. I think just to be clear on what I define as an introvert. So I don't mean someone who is antisocial, you know? Like, you know, you could be an introvert, you know, in a room full of people and still be the life of the party. But then after the party ends, you don't want to be with more people after that, you know, you just want to be, you know, reading, reading a book and just like watching YouTube videos or just being having your own time, you know? But like, the way I kind of see a sales role is that you're always kind of on just like talking to folks like the majority of your day, which to me is just a little bit too excessive. You know, like I don't mind like being in a room full of people like in like, you know, small enough doses for me just to, like, still be like social, like get to know folks and like feel like I know, be friends, you know? Well, like beyond that, it just becomes overwhelming for me.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:54] Got it. So you've been there for now in the strategy and the strategy kind of role for a good for almost five years now, over five years now. Tell me a little bit about kind of the path for like an internal strategy. Position in like, are these is the group pretty small, even in a large firm and like, what's the what's the career trajectory for somebody like that wants to go? And this is this like a lifetime career where you can work within one warehouse within one large bank in strategy for like a 20 year career? Or is it something where this leads to some other strategy work somewhere else?
Mentor2020: [00:34:32] So I say, generally speaking, strategy teams are quite lean as a whole.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:39] How big is how big is your team
Mentor2020: [00:34:41] Like 20 people? Now it's like 15 15.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:45] Ok, yeah. Pretty small. Small, yeah, OK.
Mentor2020: [00:34:47] Yeah. So why don't we run quite lean and so. The way I see it is that a lot of folks, if they really like the industry and really like the role they can stay for, you know, fifteen, twenty, twenty five years, you know? And so you definitely see more of those types of folks and an internal strategy role not just in wealth management, but just throughout other industries as well. Their internal strategy, folks. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:21] Ok, and in terms of like the actual work. Can you give me an example of like a strategy is kind of a very big overarching example of like what kind of projects you're working on internally like so you're dealing with pretty senior executives who want to like figure something out, I assume, about the business. And so they'll task you with like a project like go figure this out and then you're tasked with like getting all the data together, putting a presentation together. Is that is that fair?
Mentor2020: [00:35:49] Yeah, that's fair. So if the S£ expound on that, so you know, like usually an executive would come to my manager and say, Hey, you know, there's some problem with this business. Can you take a look at it? You know, sometimes this could be as broad as that. You know, that kind of open ended question like
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:10] Problem revenues down year over year or something like the margins look low or the profitability, something like that.
Mentor2020: [00:36:15] Yeah, something like that, right? So figure out what's driving those problems, right? And then like you said, you know, we gather all the data kind of look at it from multiple angles and really try to understand what's causing the problems, right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:30] Gathering that data through like surveys through like, do you have enough data internally typically? Or are you often like on a wild goose chase? And are you and are you doing that? Are you where on your level you're you've been promoted now, but at your level, are you doing some of that work or do you have people underneath you?
Mentor2020: [00:36:51] So generally speaking, at my firm, there's usually enough resources and kind of infrastructure in place to have enough data to analyse , OK. There are occasions where like. You know, like there's just not enough data, because it's just maybe the programs too new or something like that. And so that's when you have to do a little bit more primary research, so to speak. But those are far, far and few between usually is mostly already had the data and just have to slice and dice it and bring transparency to those numbers.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:26] Are you using stuff like Tableau? I mean, are you using like data analytic tools or are there skills or programs or something that people could kind of get good at that would make you better at this job?
Mentor2020: [00:37:38] I would say that Pablo is definitely a useful tool that I need to better utilize. I use
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:44] It.
Mentor2020: [00:37:45] Definitely. Yeah, I definitely think it's. I have seen some groups use it and I think they're starting to adopt it. But I think still we're still the bread and butter. Still excel.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:58] Excel now. Cool. Ok. It doesn't surprise me that a large bank uses excel
Mentor2020: [00:38:08] So slow to slow to sort what's
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:11] Fair. I mean. So I guess, you know, you're in this seat. What's next for you, think you're going to be here for a while, you think? Is there a certain exit opportunities that are typical for this type of role? I know you said like people can be here for a long time, but is it standard for that or some people jump to management consulting from this role?
Mentor2020: [00:38:32] Yeah, I mean, I have seen some folks who have jumped back into management consulting, you know, to work with clients. But I've also seen folks who go into other roles, you know, altogether, they might want to do asset management. They might want to do more like investments, market related type roles. Because wealth management, you kind of work with the asset managers to distribute their products more or less. And so you have to understand that business as well. And so it's not too hard to lateral to that to that side of the industry.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:08] Fair. Ok. And so what's next with you? What are you? What are your thoughts in terms of you think you've been there for a while now? Is it something you obviously got promoted and you're doing well? Is it something where you see a good path there for several more years or?
Mentor2020: [00:39:25] Yeah, so right now, I'm kind of in an interesting kind of like a mindset of of this role. So I I do see that there's room for growth and like there's definitely room for me to like learn more of like what senior managers do that I'm still not at that level is actually, for example, like more of executive presence or like kind of structuring a project where you anticipate what the manager, what the executives want, even before they even ask it, you know, the right thing, all that kind of much more high level managerial type of thinking, you know? But at the same time, I am a bit cognizant that that. That a lot of what I do is really data driven, and so eventually like things of like things like machine learning or like I like, I feel, you know, at least from what I've read is like, they're progressing, you know, quite fast and they're able to like just analyze just vast troves of data that Excel definitely cannot do. And so I feel like. You know, I'm a bit handicapped with my current tools, and so. I'm kind of torn between like, should I continue just where I am and just like go up on the kind of the ladder? Or should I kind of equip myself more with the latest and greatest kind of cutting edge tools and data aggregation and mining and just analytics start
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:05] Being able to write queries and learning a SQL and python?
Mentor2020: [00:41:09] And yeah, exactly. That's kind of where.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:11] Why not? Why can't you do both? Why can't you on the side do that? It's just too much. It's like the hours are too long.
Mentor2020: 00:41:17] I feel like. I may be able to do both, but I'm not so sure right now, I'm kind of a kind of a crossroads that I'm trying to feel it out as I go.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:30] Fair enough. Ok, so then looking back before we end the pod, anything else you'd kind of any advice you'd give to your younger self or to the young listeners out there that are maybe still in college or the first few years out of school?
Mentor2020: [00:41:42] When I look back and, you know, if I talk to my 20 year old self or twenty two year old self, I think. I definitely had a lot of kind of anxiety and uncertainty about whether it was right and whether, you know. What I you know, being late to the game and whether it's like, oh, you know, should I just give up altogether or whatnot? But like I think. Anything in life is, you know, I've read like biographies of very successful people who've, you know, later in life, they do totally different things. And so it just tells me, like it's never too late to really pursue anything, especially now that the life expectancy just keeps getting higher and higher. We can just keep, you know, we're
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:32] Going to one hundred and two hundred and twenty minutes. Okay? You never know. You never know.
Mentor2020: [00:42:38] So, you know, I just feel like age, you know, back then when your life expectancy was just like 40 or 50. Yeah, it matters when you're like 30. Get your shit together. But like, you know, now that you're living so much longer, like. You can have opportunities to do totally different things that you never expected.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:00] So, yeah, several times in your
Mentor2020: [00:43:02] Career, you know, I shouldn't. I would tell my twenty two year old self just not to be so I guess anxious about, you know, trying to optimize like, you know, the right path because there's just no right path. Everybody's just trying to figure it out as they go along.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:21] I think that's great. I'm hopeful with this, this podcast. We don't give more anxiety, and I hope that what it's doing is actually opening people's eyes, that there are a lot of different paths to success, not just the investment banking for two years to private equity. So that's the goal here. And I think if if listen to this podcast is giving you stress or anxiety, you should stop and realize that where as long as you work hard, as long as you're kind of enjoying what you're doing, there are many, many, many passive success. And the road is very long, like you said. So not to stress out if you're not exactly where you want to be. I mean, this moment, so thanks for that mentor. Twenty 20. Really appreciate you taking the time to come on the pod. And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.
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