WSO Podcast | E81: Goldman - MD/MBA from Wharton - McKinsey - Healthcare Growth Equity

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In this episode, Adam shares his long and winding road from investment banking at Goldman Sachs, to medical school at UPenn and then to joining the MD/MBA program at Wharton. Learn why he ended up in McKinsey doing strategy consulting after one year of residency and listen to the end for one big warning as you set out to map your career.

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WSO Podcast (Episode 81) Transcript:

 

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis. Your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me as I talk to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, Adam shares his long and winding road from investment banking at Goldman Sachs to medical school at UPenn, and then to joining the MD MBA program at Wharton. Learn why he ended up in McKinsey doing strategy consulting after one year of residency and listen to the end for one big warning as you set out to map your career. Adam, thanks so much for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast.

Adam: [00:00:57] Sure, happy to be here.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:00:58] So be great if you could just give the listeners a short summary of your bio.

Adam: [00:01:02] Yep, so I'm a health care venture capital investor at Avidity Health Capital, we invest in late stage med tech, so med device diagnostics and some digital health. I'm a physician by training and I guess just starting from college, I was an economics major, so I guess you could say I came back full circle to the to the business world after college worked on Wall Street briefly and then decided I wanted to go to medical school and did all the things you have to do to get into medical school. I ended up pursuing a joint MD, MBA, doing a bit of residency in emergency medicine, but I also sort of never lost that interest in the business side of things and health care systems and ended up kind of going to McKinsey after my intern year of residency spent about four years there working across the value chain in health care, but doing a lot of work actually with hospitals and health systems, and then and then moved over to the investing side about almost five years ago.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:15] It's great. So back, let's go all the way back to undergrad. Sure. So while ago now a while ago, we graduated the same year I did. So I guess we're both old in terms of specific kind of game plan in undergrad. How much of a game plan was there kind of before you graduated? Were you thinking, I want to go? Finance for sure? Was medicine on the horizon?

Adam: [00:02:41] So, hey, I'm having some technical difficulties, I can't hear you. Ok, last question.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:47] Can you hear me now? No, let me see here.

Adam: [00:02:51] Sure. So I never thought in medical school or sorry in college, seriously about medical school. I don't have physicians in the family. I guess I grew up around the neighborhood, but you know, I figured I kind of work in. I sort of prepare myself for a career in finance. I worked internships in the finance department of a large company. Before my senior year. I did a investment banking internship and then took that offer and joined after college. So, you know, I didn't know a long term if I would be in that world, but I figured at least is sort of the initial path. After college, I would be doing the Wall Street thing I graduated. It was an interesting time. My summer was still sort of at the high point in summer of two thousand not quite summer ninety nine, the summer of two thousand and then going back in summer and fall of two thousand one obviously was a, you know, an interesting time to say the least challenging time to be to be working downtown. So I think that was part of what may have changed my path a bit.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:04:04] So tell me a little bit about so I graduated in 02. You were a one, right? That's right. So I remember when I was recruiting right after nine eleven, it was almost like everything went frozen and silent and just obviously recruiting, just like fell off a cliff. You were kind of had already hit the desk, right? Or you were.

Adam: [00:04:23] That's right. I had actually was staffed already on September 11th because I had been asking,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:33] Where were you working in midtown or

Adam: [00:04:35] Downtown? Yes. Down a broad street. More the east eastern tip. So I I was I was working and the recruiting. So it was a normal recruiting class, basically for my ear. And we were the cheap labor, so to speak. So although things changed and I think offers that, that was the era of, I guess a lot of Wall Street offers getting rescinded. We were the relatively cheap labor analysts. And look, I I like I thought I enjoyed what I was doing in terms of the responsibility in terms of the camaraderie, the like my colleagues, both my peers as well as the senior folks, you know, actually enjoyed all of that. I think for me, it just I wanted something more tangible. And that's how I kind of came upon medicine. But it was it was an odd time. I mean, it was, you're right. I think that they kind of right size of the following year, but it took them some time to do that. And so it was an odd time to be on Wall Street.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:37] And so you're there for about a year and then you kind of felt like you wanted to do something else. But it's a big it's a long path. Medicine's a long path. It's a big commitment. And so for other people in banking, they're considering going and getting their MD. Is this something you look back and you say, wow, I'm really happy I went in, put all those years and suffer through med school and cats and doing all that hard work. Do you feel like it's  helped you in your career or do you feel like you could have done it an easier way? Or do you feel like there's value to that to that grind?

Adam: [00:06:09] You know, it's hard to say no. You know, I regret doing it because as long as you say I was a long slog and at the time, as someone out of college, shortly out of college, what I knew was school. I always liked school. So to me, it was like, OK, I'm going back to do something that I was basically what I had done for my entire life, except for that year or so and some suburbs, right? So, you know, the reality of it, I could. It didn't set in, probably exactly what that entailed. I knew it kind of, theoretically.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:44] Was there something about working in investment banking specifically that kind of made you feel like this is not for me? Or was it more of just like a call? You felt like there was like going back to school is a good place to be given where the economy was and stuff like that. What was it? I guess what the impetus you said. You kind of felt like you need something more tangible, but I'm just curious your experience in banking. Was it something that you like looked upon fondly or like you just despise? What was

Adam: [00:07:09] The. Yeah. So I think now I look upon it fondly.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:12] Yeah.

Adam: [00:07:14] You know, I think it was a very good experience. I remember going out and meeting with a Fortune 500 CEO, and it was the managing director and myself, and we were presenting something which if you ask me to explain today, maybe even then I would have trouble doing some very complex financial strategy. But that was that was the kind of thing. And there were other times just sitting in the meeting with pretty senior folks and having my work being displayed and having, you know, a twenty three year old, I guess at the time, twenty three year old that that I liked and I liked the fact that you very quickly you worked in a number of different projects and very quickly to get up to speed. And I think the skill set I learned was very helpful. I think as I so I looked at it as more, it was not what I thought I wanted to be doing longer term. I mean, I think if I could have stopped time, it would have been nice to just maybe, do you know, at least a couple of years of it medicine? You could say it was a calling, you know, I didn't. I think it was something that I thought would be a more satisfying career for myself. And going back to your prior question. I think that what I do today, I could I do without a medical degree? Sure. But I think the experiences I've had, I've actually been very helpful. I don't think you should go to medical school just to go so you can be a health care investor. I think if that's what you end up wanting to do, that's great. But there are faster and cheaper ways to do it. And I think if you want to practice medicine, which was my intention when I made the move, then go to medical school is great. But I think the skill sets that I've learned through these different experiences actually positioned me well for the work that I do today.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:09:00] So you went to a liberal arts college Amherst. I went to Williams, so I probably had a similar experience where you kind of thrown to the wolves when you started banking or would you feel like the training program got you up to speed? Or were you still just like working crazy long hours trying to figure out what was going on when you first started?

Adam: [00:09:15] Yeah, no, absolutely. And you know, I had the summer as well, so at least it wasn't the same firm. So got a bit of the culture and the modeling. I thought the training was very helpful. I enjoy like school. So yeah, like I like the training and it was it was helpful, but nothing is the same as the on the job putting you into it. And it was working long hours, certainly. And actually at the end of training, I was working long hours because they took the summers and stashed them up, which makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I would say that the. The. Yeah, I definitely was working long hours, but I think at least and again, my knowledge of being an investment banking analyst is obviously dated. It's. Eighteen years since I left, it was almost 18 years, so its world has changed, but it's not. Crazy, crazy, crazy all the time. You know, that's my vision of what sales and trading is, but it's a shorter day, you know, banking is you kind of worked well, you know? I'm not I'm not an early riser and I don't like to go to bed early, so I go to bed late. So it worked out well. Everything was maybe stayed up a little later than I would ideally like to. But it's not as you sort of go in and a lot of the work actually happens kind of after normal business hours. But there's downtime. There's time to go have dinner with your often in the conference room, but dinner with your colleagues and so was a long hours. But it comes in spurts, I would say that's fair.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:53] I think that's still the case. So that's the same thing it is today. How do you compare your? Your hours as an analyst to kind of your darkest days as a resident or med school, would you say it's similar or how would you compare the two? It's funny.

Adam: [00:11:12] You know, when I when I was leaving banking and I think I hopefully I think I left on good terms, good relationships, you know, I try to be very open and communicative about my decision process and all of that. And one of the folks, I think maybe as a VP or so said to me, So you like the long hours, but you don't like the money. And that probably sums it up. Probably sums it up, right? I'd say that it is true, although I guess now I talked to bankers like bankers don't get paid it and still think they do pretty well. I think honestly, I worked more hours. If you count the hours in banking than in medicine. The residents, our resident hours are capped, it's scheduled. I think that's the big difference. So, so investment banking and similar client service fields. I do consulting for a while, too. It's a banking is a bit unpredictable. You're responding to a client,

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:12:12] You're on call.

Adam: [00:12:13] Yeah, always. A medicine in residency is, you know, when you might be on call, but you know, when you're on call, you know, when you're not on call. I was working shifts if I was in E.R. and you kind of know when you're working and you're not, you're going to be working overnights pull an all nighter, probably as an investment banking analyst, but you're going to be scheduled to work overnights in medicine. So it's it's different, but I felt like you kind of knew when you were there and when not, we're thinking it could be all set to do something. And then so

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:12:43] But so let's talk a little bit about the sacrifices you had to make because you didn't just go straight to medical school, you had to do some pre-med, it looks like. That's right. So you had to do two years of pre-med before you even ready for medical school? That's right. So is that typical or is it just because you're an econ major?

Adam: [00:13:02] Exactly. Yeah. So look, there are people who so in my medical school class, there were folks who did finance or consulting, but they were pre-med. And so maybe they were working in health care, investment banking or something and wanted that experience, but then decided then that those folks wouldn't need to do that. But I was not pre-med in college. I took some math and some your

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:28] Path was even longer.

Adam: [00:13:29] Then it was very long. Yeah, so I basically went almost eight years. Yeah, basically, I did. Well, yeah, I did, because you did the MBA. Yeah, yeah, two years of pre-med coursework. So it's like it's basically college without the fund because you just doing the coursework. But it also affords you you're not only taking pre-med classes, so then you volunteer in a hospital, you do research, you kind of do. As I said, it's kind of the things you have to do to to get into medical school. And also for me, just to kind of help solidify the decision that medical school is the right decision. Doing all the due diligence you can do before you're in it. Mm hmm. So I did two years of that and then I actually applied.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:08] So did you go? Did you know you were going to go MBA as well? Was that

Adam: [00:14:11] Always? I thought about it. I mean, I thought it was. And when I got into Penn, they have a great program for that and actually had a mentor who had done that program, who I was working for in that year when I was applying. And so I you don't apply until you're in medical school, but it's definitely a possibility for me because because I always had that interest in the in sort of the health systems and the health economics and business. So it was happy I did that. And the yeah, so it's a long road. Some post back programs, which are those pre-med programs, are just a year of coursework, a full calendar year. And then you apply. Sometimes there are these linkage programs, but kind of do it the traditional way, your pre-med classes, then you're effectively like a senior in college. So, you know, my pre-med friends did all their work by junior year, took the MCAT apply, but they were in college still and then had the year. So I ended up for that year, was working and I think I took a few classes, but that's kind of the path. So it's long. And so that was three years or two years of coursework the year. And then I did the joint degree program in five years. So yeah, it's a long, long path.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:20] So when you're when you're getting your when you're in school, in medical school, the first one, do you have to kind of apply for the MBA program?

Adam: [00:15:28] So every school is a bit different. The. Typically, you do three years of. So just to back into it, you typically do three years of medical school, then a year of business school and then that last year it's a semester each. And if you know anything about medical school or business school, the last year of each of those schools is not particularly academically challenging. So they're you're able to shorten those. And so I think I applied my second year and then deferred for a year because it gave it gives you an extra chance if you didn't get in the first year, but you either apply your second, typically your second or your third year, and then go after your third year. Some schools, you actually may apply concurrently or before you get, but typically you'll be probably at least do your first year of medical school and then apply

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:22] What percentage of like MD MBAs do you think at the top schools end up not practicing medicine.

Adam: [00:16:28] So my ear was we had six joint degree. There were other MDS in the business school program, but of this ones, we were kind of doing the dual degree and there were six of us. Two did not do any training after and then I now don't practice, but the other three always practice. So it's 50 50 is not that. I don't think that's atypical if I look at the other classes. I think that maybe the class behind me, there are a couple people who are not up in a half.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:08] Maybe it's 70 20 to 30 percent, 20 to 50 percent, something like that.

Adam: [00:17:13] Yeah, yeah, something like that.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:16] Ok, fair. Just curious. And so when did you kind of know, Hey, I'm not going to practice? Was it as soon as you did an internship with McKinsey? Like, this is my calling?

Adam: [00:17:27] Yeah, no. So yeah, I did my so I did my internship summer associate after my MBA. And one thing I always encourage the dual degree students to do is if you're in business school, take advantage of being a business school and part of business school is doing a summer internship. I just think that's part of the experience. Some of my classmates didn't do that and it's fine, but I actually really think it was a regardless of if you're going to practice medicine, not practice. I think it's just I think it's a part of the experience. I'm happy I did it, but I part of the reason I did it was versus trying to do something very niche was I thought I was in a practice medicine. So doing it, consulting internship at a big firm was going to give me nice exposure was an established program. I was going to learn a little bit on the method for a few months, get on a project and have a good experience. But my intention was to go back and practice medicine. So was not, Oh, I did this. This was I had a great experience at the firm ended up spending a lot of time there, but I didn't leave that summer saying, Oh, I must be back and all of that.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:32] So what led to that decision? Yeah, tell me how.

Adam: [00:18:36] Yeah, so it's going to sound very similar to my leaving banking where I actually enjoyed my intern year. I signed up for a full residency, but I enjoyed my my. I only did the first year call that the interior. I enjoyed my my ear, and for me, it was actually a really good capstone to medical school because I actually had real responsibility taking care of patients where med school, you kind of see things that you're not in it as much. And obviously there's still a hierarchy of senior residents and attendings. But I had primary patient care duties and as an emergency medicine resident, I actually rotated through the whole hospital. So I was delivering babies. I was on medicine for a surgical ICU, so I got to actually kind of see the whole system again. So I enjoyed it. I think what that but I also realized that I wanted to be working on a more macro issues in health care. And as much as it would be nice to solve those kind of micro patient interaction to solve those individual patient cases and help patients individually. I want it to be focused more on the larger health care systems issues. And if I could have we've been through the long path. If I could have stop time, I would love to then the doctor for that, and I just couldn't justify that. Investing would have been then another three years to finish residency and then pay my dues in the business world. So that's why I ultimately decided to leave after that first year and I thought, go back to McKinsey. That would be kind of like doing an internship or a fellowship or a residency, but in the business world. And even though I had some business experience and resume with some, some other institutions, this would, I thought, give me credibility to go out and work in the

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:20:31] Business or finance. Absolutely. I mean, you guys at McKinsey, name it. Huge, so just tell me a little bit about the risk you were taking in terms of leaving your residency, is it easy to get back? Let's say you were like, No, just kidding. After one year, Mackenzie actually wanted to finish my residency. Would you have been able to get back?

Adam: [00:20:46] So, you know, look, I thought about it at times because the grass, as you can tell, the grass is always greener and. And, you know, I think that there are aspects of medicine, clinical medicine that I certainly missed. Mm hmm. And even to this day, and it's been a while now, I guess it's been almost nine years since I've been out. So, you know, I miss it at times. And my wife, I was actually we met in medical school. She reminds me, Well, I'm not a real doctor. You know, she's like, I have the M.D.. I actually got a license, but I'm really not practicing and it's different. So I do miss things at times. You know, if I wanted to go back right away shortly after, I might have been able to, you know, I would have required some, some important strong negotiation skills and the right storytelling for why it made sense to go back. I think now it would be next to impossible. That could if I really chose to be starting from scratch again and just would be a very difficult move to make sure. And I will say people do go. It's I did have colleagues who at McKinsey, for example, who did McKinsey for a few years and then actually went to residency. So it's possible.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:00] It's  not unheard of, in other words. So you can you can kind of reset again if you if

Adam: [00:22:06] You like that. They hadn't started residency to begin with, but they had decided to do that for a few years and then go back. And it is possible.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:13] I really find the grass is greener syndrome. It's very prevalent. Yes, especially, you know, I think a lot of doctors even looking at finance and vice versa. You know, the finance people probably see the doctors are so stable, so nice. You know, they can just go in and you're dealing, you're helping people. You have more. There's a more altruistic sense in the in the reverse of it is the the doctor replied, saying, Yeah, but you know, there's a grind here and you guys get paid a lot more or at least used to, depending on the specialty. But it's really fascinating to me, you know, looking at your background where there's a few kind of quick jumps. It struck me as like, I wonder if there was a little bit of that, but it sounds like you had you had given it some good thought.

Adam: [00:22:57] Yeah, no. Look, I mean, the grass is greener. Syndrome certainly plays a plays a role in it. You sort of vision in a certain way and you can justify the decisions. But you know, I tried to be very thoughtful about each of those moves because it is a pivot and there are other people involved in terms of, you know, I had made commitments to different places and I had to be very thoughtful about that and not leave folks in the lurch. And that was very important to me as I was making the moves. But but I also learned through that process that if you want to do something else and you, you're thoughtful about it, go do it. I mean, and people will be supportive. I was always supported by that, you know, and it's your it's your life. You need to do what works for you. And I think everyone recognized that again, just you have to be thoughtful and communicate, communicate and be open about it because otherwise, then you can put people in a bad position. But if you don't do that, I think you'll find people I work. You worry a lot about these decisions, and I understand I did. I worried a lot about some of these decisions. And then, you know, and now you sort of they fill the spots and everything else.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:12] So in terms of your run at McKinsey, it was almost four years. Mm hmm. And so tell me a little bit about kind of as you're thinking of your next move, where are you? Are you thinking potentially stay long term in management, consulting or strategy? And I see, were you doing strategy work for them or it was?

Adam: [00:24:30] Yeah. So most of what I was doing in McKinsey, particularly my second half sort of as an engagement manager, was sort of providers. So hospital health system strategy on scale growth, M&A partnerships, that kind of work, although I did a lot of other kinds of things as well. So like most people who work at McKinsey or most of the other consulting firms, you only intend to be there two years, they're double that. And I'm really I'm really glad I stayed beyond those two years. But again, there's no you have to do what works for you.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:09] Why do you think it was good for you?

Adam: [00:25:10] Yeah. So again, I kind of alluded to it that second half as an engagement manager, I just I enjoyed it more. I sort of developed my level, my expertise in that, in that sort of functional and industry area felt the network within the firm. And I think that that part of it was nice. It just takes a little bit of time to do that. And I I don't think I was going to stay forever at McKinsey. I no one. Maybe I would have stayed a little bit longer. The opportunity that I have now came about. I took it, but I think that I wanted to get out of McKinsey a few things, and I got most of that out by the time I left. So first. I wanted to learn problem solving. It's a very consultant esque word, but it's how do you take a problem amorphous situation and try to break it down? And I like that emergency. I did emergency medicine clinically and that also has that element to it. So that part was interesting, but I wanted to take that piece of it too. There was sort of that business communication. So in medicine, it's all about building up to the answer. So here are all the facts. And here let me build a kind of lawyer building the facts and then client is not guilty. Or they may be. And then in in in the business world, and I'm using that term like sad like a doctor now using the term very generically. Yeah. In the business world, it's top down communication.So we went to the same business school and there you may just say, I think it's this and you may not. It may not. Back in business school students may be a little bit right. Mckinsey, they teach, actually lead with the answer. You know, you should expand into this market. And these are the reasons why X, Y and Z. And I thought that was actually a very helpful lesson that I learned starting in business school. I was kind of half jokingly starting a business school, but then in particularly in in consulting. And then the third area, I thought was helpful was just a bit on sort of managing work streams and people and managing a McKinsey team or any one of these consulting firms teams is one of the easiest things to do because you're working with a lot of motivated people, but kind of managing that, managing my work from owning that and learning a bit about certain areas within health care. I want to do now. I was still learning across those different dimensions when I left, but it was starting to flatten out, certainly. And I think the next step for me would have been for selling work or. And that piece of it, which has exciting elements to it, but it's not exactly what I want it to be doing. Yeah, investing it always intrigued me, and I actually think the stage of investing in which I invest actually is well suited to someone with a consulting skill set.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:28:06] And so you how did you come across this opportunity? Was it through a McKinsey alum? Was a

Adam: [00:28:12] Yeah. So actually the firm I work at, my two colleagues are two former McKinsey partners. We're part of a broader asset manager, but we manage our fund and there's three of us. And one of the people who I work with actually interviewed me for my summer and then we work together on a project. We didn't work together very much, but we work together on a project at the firm and did some work and we were in the same office, so we worked together on some office initiatives. So I knew him for years, you know, get some experience working together and reached out. And that's the rest is history, as they say.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:53] And so you've been it's mostly growth equity.

Adam: [00:28:56] Right? Yeah. So in late stage venture capital growth equity, so it's generally commercial stage companies, but early commercial stage companies, sometimes earlier. And so that requires a level of analysis that the consulting skill set certainly helps with in terms of what our growth drivers interviewing, doing research, whether it's interviewing experts or and then synthesizing those findings or doing secondary research, building some sort of analytic model. Certainly, the banking experience helps from what I can remember about building different companies.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:36] Yeah, when you're early stage, the financial modeling isn't as useful as probably the consulting frameworks that allow you to kind of analyze industries, right?

Adam: [00:29:44] Exactly. And I mean, we're building in a revenue building kind of basic P&L models and layering and cap table analysis and returns analysis. So doing that on the diligence side, so a lot of that, those skills kind of pull right from consulting and analyzing a growth story. And then on the I spent a lot of my time managing the portfolio. So a typical investor, it's part time on fundraising, part time sourcing, a diligence, part time on portfolio management and then sort of administrative work, you know? Yes, of course. And portfolio management, especially the small firm, the administrative side. But portfolio management is very much what you do. In particular, as a senior consultant, we have a little bit more skin in the game now, of course. So we're not just providing recommendations, but we serve at the board level. So it's that kind of influence model and and thinking about that kind of influence the management team. So a lot of very similar skill sets, whereas if you're very early stage investing, there are some other skills you need to bring to bear. Then maybe less of this. And if you're later, it's much more of the financial. Whole side of it, which might if I had done banking a long time, be better suited for that side.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:00] So tell me a little bit about just in terms of the transition, would you say when you were at McKinsey before you jump to the growth of growth equity, did you make it known that you wanted to move? How was that? Or was this just like you were approached? Had you been looking? Was it something you were? Kind of.

Adam: [00:31:16] Yeah, I was looking passively. Yeah, look, look passively and kind of because I was working full time. It was hard to be as. Structured and deliberate as I would as sort of my tendency. So, you know, yes, of course, I've built a spreadsheet eventually that like categorize the opportunities. But I was looking across a number of different kinds of opportunities from larger company kind of more in strategy roles, kind of a very typical post consulting experience, start up type companies in a variety of roles, investing both the public side and the private equity VC side. And, you know, I guess, considering, you know, hospital administration as well, so I wasn't exactly sure

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:10] That was a lot. Yeah, it's a lot of different.

Adam: [00:32:12] It's a lot of different, you know, again, it's more passive. So as things more inbounds responding to that. But I think investing was always something that that really intrigued me.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:21] How did you how did you think about that? Because they're so they're so different. Were you in your spreadsheet? Was obviously you have certain things like location, pay and, yeah, obvious things. But in terms of how you would rank like with the investing job or those given like extra bonus points and the administration jobs given less or how would you how were you thinking about it based on what you would see?

Adam: [00:32:40] Yeah, I mean, I think I was trying to find the perfect storm between interesting work life style and I guess, lifestyle and logistics, if you can kind of combine that to get it all together. And so, yeah, I think that investing was I had an interest in it for a while. And so it was definitely intriguing. And I thought a big company probably will always be there. Maybe not the same opportunity, but that will be there. Investing opportunities a little bit can be harder to come by smaller world. And I thought about the public side and the private side, and certainly it was intrigued by the public equities, the hedge fund side. You know, it's a remuneration is very nice and that in that world, it's that kind of instant gratification because you see, I mean, that's also, I think, very stressful for folks. But a lot of it's more on the sort of the biotech life sciences side. And there's just, you know, typically if those are your listeners within health care investing, you know, traditionally most of the money has been made. It's sort of in the biopharma space where medtech, there's a lot more activity. There is actually a lot of excitement around med tech and performance and which is the diagnostics and device. And then then a lot of money poured into it.Some, some not so good, some better. And I think it's starting to be some refinement around what's the investment case within the health idea of digital health. But I never. A biotech, I just I don't feel like my skill set was as. Be careful what I say because one day I'll be investing, but I think it was it was less of a natural fit for me to do that. Although I interviewed and got far along, and I think at that point I was probably more of a pluripotent stem cell than maybe today, right? Because know coming from those backgrounds and closer to medical school, closer the consulting experience and what it could have done it, but I think I got less excited about it. Medtech is a more. It ties more closely to the experience I had particularly advising hospital systems because they're the customers of these products. And so thinking about reimbursement and clinical value proposition and all of that and just the stage at which it is just it was more of that clinical side of things was helpful. So it sort of became a good opportunity that came across. I think the lifestyle like I think the hard part about consulting is the travel. To be honest, now I like to travel a little bit. It's nice a break.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:19] You got it back, you got the desire back. Now that you're

Adam: [00:35:21] Exactly doing it once a month or whatever is fine. But every week it's hard. And I think that the lifestyle part of it was important, certainly staying at big consulting firm, staying in a big bank for a long time is a nice proposition in terms of the pay, and there is a and I'll use the word prestige, not in any sort of elitist manner. I mean, this I mean, just in terms of sort of what the big name places afford in terms of opportunities, just the opportunities to serve different kinds of clients opportunities just to sort of you get exposure to things. And I think there's that piece of being at a large institution and especially as you grow with it, that just is offers a lot of nice benefits. Absolutely. So that was a trade off, I thought through.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:36:15] Are you comfortable sharing kind of the pay? I mean, I think it's pretty standard at McKinsey in terms of what's known. Did you have to take a pay cut to go by side?

Adam: [00:36:25] No, I basically stayed of that whole, but the increases are not the same.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:31] Does that make sense? That makes perfect sense. Yeah. It's not like you're jumping to partner in a few years. It's just a couple of fun cycles, probably to start getting.

Adam: [00:36:39] There's obviously a lot there's upside in this world, but the in the professional services world, there are large increases every year. And so that's why that's another reason I think a lot of people sort of leave at the engagement manager level or or senior associate because there's sort of less of that gap.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:59] Fair anything before we call it anything, you'd kind of look back at your career or your academic, both academic and professional that you would kind of give yourself advice. Are the younger or the younger listeners kind of anything,

Adam: [00:37:15] Just looking back? I think there's I think it's it is. You need to do what you enjoy doing. There's I know a lot of pressure to sort of follow the path of least resistance, which is easier said than done right. You know, going to work at marquee institutions is not so easy, right? But you know, I look back and I don't want to take that for granted. I mean, I worked at some amazing institutions and had good experiences in that great people there, and it's hard to get those jobs. But you know, those places often come to campus, throw it in. And so you know it in some ways, it's a path of least resistance. It also can create a lot of undue stress because you kind of get in this herd mentality. And I think I would just encourage folks to do what you want to do. There are lots of ways to make a living. There are lots of ways to live comfortably and not just one path. And if you are on one path and you want to choose another path, it's OK. Your life is life as long, hopefully, and it's totally OK. You know, that's on the other hand, I will just say, you know, don't just jump from place to place. I mean, I think I kind of, you know, I look back, maybe I wish I stuck with something a little longer at times. I think now it's things have settled down, and I'm really happy for the experiences I've had. But I think there's value to spending time in a place and actually getting a lot of good experience and growing and doing that. But you know, no hesitation if it's not what you want to do as long as you're thoughtful about it to.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:53] Yeah, I think that's great advice, I think a lot of people feel like if they're not on a certain path, the stress starts building and people don't realize how many, especially MBAs, how many times they reset in their in their career. And so don't be afraid to reset if you're not kind of you're not happy, not fulfilled. Just try to avoid the grass is greener. Exactly. And really, really

Adam: [00:39:16] Good business school for that, because part of the reason for business school, I mean, there's a number of reasons for it. But part of the reason is to actually think through career changing. And it's a great use of business school, honestly. So but yeah, the grass is greener. Syndrome can be detrimental. A little bit of it's OK. Do some explorations. It can actually help you feel more satisfied in your current job. And I've gotten advice there. It's like every I try not to do every six months because I had the problem before. But, you know, call it every year on a regular basis to go and reassess and even look, it's nothing wrong with that because one, you may find something really interesting, but it can actually help reaffirm what you're doing and so you don't get stuck in a rut. I definitely heard that advice from folks, and I take it to heart times as well.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:03] It's great. I think we'll leave it at that. Adam, thank you so much for taking the time today.

Adam: [00:40:07] I appreciate it. Thanks for everything you're doing with. We really appreciate it.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:12] Thank you. And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.