Mod Note (Andy): Best of Eddie, this was originally posted on 7/30/12. To see all of our top content from the past, click here.
I think you guys will get a kick out of this because I sure did. My boys are home for summer vacation. They're 7 and 9 years old, and they're about to enter second and fourth grade, respectively. We were walking home from lunch today when, out of the blue, my 9-year old asks me, "Dad, did you go to college?"
Now, I suspect he knew the answer because I'm sure we've talked about it at some point, but maybe he couldn't get his head around it. So I answered, "No, I didn't go to college." After a moment of silence, my 7-year old speaks up:
"So you're a dirtbag?"
He was completely sincere, and I really had to fight to stifle a laugh. Then his brother piles on:
"Yeah, dad. You're a dirtbag if you didn't go to college."
Back to the 7-year old:
"People who don't go to college have to pick up trash and be a garbage man." he pauses, "How come you're not a garbage man?" Again, he's completely sincere, but this time, his tone is not one of "How did you beat the system?" but more of "Garbage man's a pretty cool gig, how did you fuck that up?".
By this time, I can't help myself and I'm chuckling. I ask them, "Who told you that if you don't go to college you're a dirtbag?" My early suspicion rests on my wife, just because that's the kind of thing you probably tell your kid if you want them to stay in school. Still, it doesn't really sound like her, and in a lot of ways, she's perversely proud of the things my uneducated ass has accomplished.
Neither one of them would immediately admit to where they heard it, so I pressed them. Finally, the 9-year old gives it up:
"That's what the teachers say in school."
A-ha.
I have to admit I was kinda surprised that they're being indoctrinated so young. I don't necessarily object because I do place a lot of value on education, but I'm not sure I agree with the not so thinly veiled elitism that goes into using garbage men as a cautionary tale.
I generally view academia outside the STEM disciplines as the world's largest (and costliest) circle jerk. It's designed to keep people paying tuition for as long as humanly possible, and we're starting to see the deleterious economic impact of that practice in the burgeoning student loan crisis.
If that weren't bad enough, however, now my kids think I'm a dirtbag (which was inevitable at some point, of course, just not this soon). And for that, I'm paying out the ass. I got the bill for their next year's tuition a couple weeks ago and I'm not exaggerating when I say that I'm paying more for my 7-year old to attend second grade than was spent on the entirety of my own education.
Guess I shoulda been a teacher (at least when garbage man didn't work out).
I learned more from Khan Academy in a week than I did in a semester worth of schooling. Traditional schooling needs a complete overhaul.
This. Love Khan Academy!
I think it goes both ways. I chose my professors carefully at a school where I effectively paid basically nothing and have had the fortune to have been taught by some truly caring professors. Funnily enough, these professors were not in any of the STEM disciplines but in liberal arts classes. I can honestly say that even though I love open source education, I received some invaluable education - especially in business and writing - that's vastly improves my functionality. Then again, I did go to (some) of my classes to learn and didn't waste my time. In defense of the liberal arts I would say that even thought you should have some type of business or STEM degree, a minor in liberal arts does a good job of helping you be well-rounded. It's really what you make of it, I guess. But in no way should it give someone a sense of elitism. I'm sure most garbage men are more respectable people than a majority of the students at my college.
That is obnoxious, I'd call your kids' teachers out on that shit. You know the spineless pricks will piss themselves.
Just fax a copy of your w2 over to their teacher and ask them if they could find such an awesome garbage man gig.
As an aside I find the best judge of character at work to be seeing who says hi to and thanks the cleaning lady
respec.
i majored in Klingon at Goucher and the sense of entitlement it gave me was worth every penny.
I did Ebonics, it has certainly helped my street cred
wiggity wiggity
Keep in mind teachers have every incentive to keep stuffing the idea of school = money + success.
It's like accountants lobbying to increase financial regulation of all businesses..
Ever tried to explain conflict of interest and moral hazard to a 7-year old?
PS- If Notorious is a legit source, the garbage man is making more than your kids' teacher
School is the single biggest waste of one's time. Unfortunately, like most things, everyone has a misconception about its benefits and here we are stuck having to endure it for the first 25% of our lives. I think it's pathetic that we're prisoners to it, and the longer you stay in the system the more fucked up you come out the other side. There's a reason so many people run back to academia once they get a taste of the real world, and it's not because they wanted to "enrich themselves" intellectually. It's because they couldn't fucking handle being a real human being.
i completely agree with the last sentence blackhat
+1. So true. It's amazing how much time we waste and shit we swallow just because it's "what we're supposed to do." And it school is just the start. Take a look at http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2011/09/ten-scams-you-encounter-every-day/ for a few more.
The problem is, if you choose to eschew the established life script, you're in for a lonely ride.
Negative attitude. I embrace it.
School is also the primary bastion of liberalism. At least people like Scott Walker know what to do with these unions/teachers who almost always turn out to be hypocrites.
I heard that garbage men in NYC can make 100k. Not sure if that's true, but if it was I wouldn't be that surprised.
It's true. Although it used to be worse way back when they were still run by the mob.
Personally, I'd find out what teacher said that and go tell them that you're paying their salary with your dirtbag ass. If you find them offensive, ask them why their sorry college educated ass depends on your paycheck, but that part is optional. I definitely would inform them that not having a college degree and being a degenerate are a correlated relationship more than a causal relationship.
LOL hilarious. Two jobs ago, I worked with a guy that majored in alchemy. True story.before you kids get yourselves in a lather, realize that mr. eddie is an outlier. most of you will not be able to succeed without finishing college and slaving away for 25 years to sock away retirement wealth. the days of gut trading are over and even if you wanted to be a trader like him, you'd need crack programming skills to start and most of those guys at least drop OUT of MIT or caltech, which means they were IN at some point.
having worked with both bankers and traders of the modern school, i know that bankers are actually a hugely anti-intellectual bunch, but once you put enough time between getting through your first IBD job (for which you had such raging hard-ons) and when your life really begins, the parts of college where people in the tweed coats were telling you about stuff will have a lot more meaning.
It depends what you mean by succeed. If by succeed you mean enjoy life, earn a decent living, have a family, etc, million of Americans do that every day without going to college. Just because you're earning 50k instead of 350k doesn't mean you cant lead a good life.
Not going to college doesn't make you a dirtbag or worthless. These supposed teachers need to have that shit rammed down their throat. Blue collar workers built this country, not white collar. Respec.
the only billionaire i knew personally is an old greek guy who died with a 1.4BB net worth. he dropped out of school at 16 and worked his way up in the world without a degree, so i am already well convinced that college is not necessary for everyone.
however, most of us aren't going to be billionaires. having a few mil in the bank and living a low key retirement like mr. eddie is plenty for 99% of us here. that's what i mean by success.
his kids' teachers are being stupid twats, but life is bayesian, and the formula for my old datsun-driving billionaire and trader eddie was always a long shot and is more so now. for most of you monkeys, college is the way to go.
Nabooru also had a great post about which majors students should be able to choose when it comes to student loans a couple weeks ago. I think if that were to happen, we'd see a huge shift in the culture of education.
"My education was only interrupted by my schooling..."
althought this is changing with TFA and such, most teachers are still the bottom bunch. If your highschool bio teacher actually knew what he was doing he would've gone into clinical research, grad school, etc..
...methamphetamine production...
Some people go into teaching because they want to. There are those who look at things besides salary when making career choices.
Teaching is a skill that not everyone has. In a lof of cases these elite TFAer's are far worse than the teachers they replace because of inexperience, naivety, and a level of commitment that lasts only until they get their law/med school acceptance letter.
Yes, This Point/Counterpoint by the Onion skewers TFA incredibly well.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/my-year-volunteering-as-a-teacher-help…
I knew plenty of teachers that were dumb as rocks and graduated from state universities. They might have loved teaching, but that doesn't mean I have any form of intellectual respect for them.
I see what you're saying, that's legit. I think most people on here are probably following your train of thought anyways. My point is just that those teachers are twats for saying people who didn't go to college are dirtbags.
Never let school get in the way of your education.
This is great. SB
Eddie, in a few years watch out for the Keynesians in Middle School Econ 101
The problem is that everyone these days has a college education - whether it be from HYP or some random state school and so you basically have to go to college for any job paying 30k+ unless you go the entrepreneurial route which obviously carries a lot more risk
College is a joke. Everyone does it because A) it's a delay to entering the real world, and B) it is quite possibly the most basic "check in the box" for any half-decent non-labor job (idc how much relevant shit you know, good luck landing a financial interview when you're 23 with just a GED to your name). I'd figure it's less rampant at "targets", but I'd say somewhere around 60% of my entire class had no reason to be there. Funny actually, because 100% of my friends that fit that description stuck around for their MSA.... purely to nourish their passion for accounting OBVIOUSLY, not at all because they weren't ready for the party to stop. Now on "paper" they're even more qualified than me, when in reality they only did it because pissing your bed on a Tuesday night in the "real world" is frowned upon. Point is, shit is a complete joke.
I highly reccomend watching this debate where Peter Thiel destroys the 'you must go to college' racket.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/7VTQ-dBYSlQ
[quote=Amphipathic]I highly reccomend watching this debate where Peter Thiel destroys the 'you must go to college' racket.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/7VTQ-dBYSlQ
]
this from the guy who got two degrees from stanford.
as america goes back to becoming a who-you-know not what-you-know economy, the value re-arrangers will prosper big time by taking it away from the value producers.
so go and become a government contractor, or get your MD and learn how to bill medicare/medicaid to its premature death. in both cases, college degrees are necessary.
Personally, I think a higher education is for most citizens except some outliers learn better by self-studying or first-hand experience.
I see in the future some people use open courses and completely skip the 4 year college.
This is better than going to a community college or any c**k-sucking school and save you money and time.
Just my 2 cents.
Is this at NPV when adjusted for the time value of money? And considering actual cost price, not what you actually paid for it - ie even if you didn't pay for it, chances are someone (whether taxpayer's or a scholorship program or some other third party) did.
Not trolling, just curious why you'd pay so much for your son's second grade and what extra value you see that would convince you it's worth the extra investment, compared to your own studies.
I agree with this, not from a maths perspective (though I spent my yr 6-7 classes picking errors in my textbook and my maths teachers work), but from the perspective of finding teachers who cared and who were motivated by students learning. I had a few, particularly in Business, Law, Accounting, and its amazing what a difference it made, compared to someone like my English teacher, or some of my Maths teacher who just didn't care. Probably why I went into the studies I did.
Though we can be too harsh on teachers though, not all are deadbeats. I had some awful ones, sure, and some friends who were trying to be teachers who I had to lecture in long division because they just didn't have a clue, but then some of my teachers gave up careers as successful accountants, consultants, bankers, financiers, entrepreneurs, etc because they believed in teaching. I have a lot of respect for those teachers, and will continue too.
@Aimez:
I just did the calculation adjusted for inflation and yeah, he's got me beat. By a lot. I'd post the actual figures but they kinda make me sick. The value I'm paying for is that he isn't in the French school system. But he'd better come away from this a fucking billionaire rocket scientist, because this shit is ridiculous.
From what I gather, up until now, rocket scientists didn't become billionaires. BUT NOW RICHARD MOFKIN Branson IS POPULATING SPACE. Your kids gonna be a billionaire bro
I agree with most of the comments posted above, however, I think a lot of the college-bashing is unnecessary because college (should) cultivate a way of thinking instead of simply being a place to collect knowledge. By engaging in undergraduate research, participating in class, learning from peers and professors etc etc not only is pure knowledge gained but problem solving techniques and methodologies are acquired. It is this, I believe, that makes college useful, instead of the things you actually learn.
I feel like the kids who spent all their time doing these things weren't the ones who learned the most during their time in college. Not to say the party people are any better - they're worse - but the kids that bought into the importance of being engrossed in "participation" and "academic research" never really came out with a better understanding of the world around them, in my experience. There's a happy medium in there somewhere.
If you are not planning to attend college, I would advise at least try to get into a college and then dropout. Most employers view school as a credibility stamp and the fact that you were "IN" signals that you got the intellect and dropping out only shows your passion to do something more important( such as a startup) . Even after so many years, people associate Harvard with Bill Gates and Zuckerberg though they dropped out. My employer(big software co) unintentionally values a Phd dropout almost the same as a Phd.
I agree with many comments above regarding usefulness or not of the school system, but don't forget that is another form of socialization, both basic and higher education. It's like a club, but more expensive...
For example, Eddie's kids hang out with other kids raised in families with a similar status, I'm not judging if it is better or worse (some kids may be good influence, some others may not). But all in all, he is sorrounded by an environment that may give him more opportunities in the future.
The same happens with higher education, you pay the cost to network, inside and outside of college. I don't see any other reason why someone would get in college/master given that nowadays many good classes are available online.
EDIT : It further pisses me off that every half decent sales/marketing job now either requires or prefers an MBA. Do I really need an MBA to learn how to talk to a distributor/whoever for 5 mins?
You obviously haven't studied much math (the "M" in "STEM") if you don't think it's a circle jerk. Believe me, I WOULD KNOW. Now, I'm not talking about the very elementary stuff such as Calculus I - Calculus III sequence that all students have to take to graduate (and actually have real-world applications in engineering and other disciplines), I'm talking about topics in mathematics such as algebraic topology, algebraic geometry, commutative algebra, number theory, etc.
Don't get me wrong, it's an excellent mental exercise and it can be really interesting to think deeply about these problems, but the only reason "Math" gets bundled in with "STEM" is because the people who haphazardly throw around the term "STEM" are liberal arts majors (politicians, etc.) who don't have the background or intellectual capability to understand that pure mathematics is basically mental masturbation and has dubious (Read: practically zero) real-world applications.
Of course, a person who comes from a "pure" math major (e.g. NOT a double major or joint major in applied math & economics) is probably going to be perceived by companies as being more intelligent than someone who studied sociology, but in terms of what they studied in school being relevant to their job... honestly, there really isn't that much difference.
That is because a person who studied pure math, and graduated with good grades from the program, is more intelligent than someone who graduated from some liberal arts program, as a rule of thumb. For me, the the hardest degrees out there are pure math and physics. Not everyone can go through those programs and get a nice GPA. This is coming from someone who studied engineering, but worked as a math tutor among many math and physics major friends. What I studied was challenging, but compared to them it was basic stuff.
Of course there are smart people in all the areas of study. But it is easier to filter out who is smart by just looking at a math/physics degree with a 3.5+ GPA. On the other hand, a high GPA in liberal arts does not means you are smart. And yes, the real world applications of pure math might be almost null, but the way you approach those pure math problems are applicable to pretty much everything. It is about following logical rules after all. And since most jobs train you anyways, this is really a non issue. Heck, I studied engineering and still had to take training during my first couple of months because none of what I was doing was taught to me on undergraduate. For some jobs, you just need an applicant who can get up to speed with the tasks you need them to do, and bring also something new on the table.
Totam eligendi dolorum praesentium est est quo dignissimos voluptatem. Quidem deserunt aut sint aut vel dignissimos consectetur. Voluptatem perspiciatis iste alias odio dolor.
Alias rerum qui cupiditate nihil. Eos perspiciatis laborum sapiente et. Eos commodi sit neque repellendus. Eum alias adipisci nihil.
Exercitationem vel iure itaque quisquam. Maxime dolorem voluptas praesentium doloremque omnis sit fugit esse. Asperiores non accusantium at est cum.
Eveniet soluta velit qui nam aut quas et. Consequatur ut aut id illo. Nobis nihil alias voluptas consequatur. Harum doloremque dolor dolor dolor quia laudantium recusandae.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Totam in facere incidunt voluptas. Fuga dolor reiciendis occaecati ipsum maxime. Recusandae dolor neque omnis quia omnis velit voluptatem.
Libero consequatur dolores perferendis et qui dolor optio. Voluptate aperiam modi odio autem consequuntur ab et. Voluptatem qui ipsum repudiandae minus quo consequatur. Cumque veniam ab et nulla enim molestiae. Et optio illum beatae nihil incidunt minus. Molestiae quibusdam doloribus vero et sit. Dolor eos consequatur in at voluptas excepturi id ea.
Suscipit ab voluptatem eum quaerat. Qui veniam aliquam occaecati odit omnis accusantium. Modi non animi exercitationem dolorum.
Aut quia odit aperiam hic. Aut hic dolorem et pariatur consequatur aut.
Soluta quia harum aut. Nostrum non qui ex dolores placeat ipsam. Quasi vel sunt mollitia sunt a nihil. Quae minima illum est.
Inventore et eaque non ut sunt sed quod. Sint dolorem sapiente optio nihil accusantium et odio eos. Minima aliquam accusamus voluptas quas omnis eos porro.