Got Game Or Got Games?

Lets face it, the majority of people currently going into investment banking are male (sorry bankerella!), early 20s, above average intelligence and probably quite averse to serious sports.

You know what else fits that category well? Gamers.

I am going to publicly admit to being a fairly avid gamer and I’m willing to bet a lot of you other monkeys are as well. Yes, I’ve played my fair share of World of Warcraft in my younger days (world top 10 guild ftw) as well as Call of Duty and Starcraft.

Many ‘senior’ people (read: anyone above the age of 30) is likely to have a pretty dim view of us ‘young gamers’ and probably imagine us to be living in a dark basement, eating Doritos and staying up for weeks on end for a Red Bull-fuelled nerd binge. However, consider the following points for a resumé:

  • Led a team of 24 people from various cultural and geographic backgrounds
  • Organised and ran activities requiring a high degree of co-ordination from all team members
  • Delegated different roles to each team member depending on their own strengths and characteristics
  • Overcame new problems which required different techniques and adapting to rapidly-changing situations to solve

Pretty good for a fit interview no? That is basically a summary of what I spent several hours a day doing on World of Warcraft in my late teens but I would never even dream of putting it on my resumé due to the stigma attached.

I would argue that todays youth and those aiming at high finance probably learnt some of their best skills through gaming. You learn multitasking, teamwork, adaptation and the ability to sit almost perfectly still in a chair staring at a screen for several hours at a time while communicating on a headset – ideal skills for an incoming analyst.

So let me hear your views! Who here is courageous enough to admit to their gaming past / present and also do you think in this modern digital age that playing video games can actually enhance your personal skills? Should gaming at the very top level be just as respected as college sports?

 

I don't have anything against online games, but I think it's a pretty big stretch to say that leading a group of 24 people in online dungeons & dragons will make you a better banker. The average person doing the hiring is likely to agree with me on this, and I think if you talked about this during an interview it would almost certainly backfire on you. Online gaming will never be as respected as college sports.

FWIW, I would have the same reaction to someone trying to convince me they are a value investor because they won last year's fantasy football pool (which is dungeons & dragons for jocks).

Edit: On second thought, this can't be a real post. You got me. I'm trolled.

 
Best Response
Ravenous:
I don't have anything against online games, but I think it's a pretty big stretch to say that leading a group of 24 people in online dungeons & dragons will make you a better banker. The average person doing the hiring is likely to agree with me on this, and I think if you talked about this during an interview it would almost certainly backfire on you. Online gaming will never be as respected as college sports.

FWIW, I would have the same reaction to someone trying to convince me they are a value investor because they won last year's fantasy football pool (which is dungeons & dragons for jocks).

Edit: On second thought, this can't be a real post. You got me. I'm trolled.

It's definitely a real post! I'm not for one second saying people SHOULD use this stuff, I'm just asking the question as to why it's so frowned upon and why is leading 24 other people (even if its in a fantasy game) any less reputable than being captain of some sports team (if they are both done to the same level).

I would say that a lot of it is because people who have no knowledge of either top-end gaming or top-end sport would automatically assume that the sports captain is a better leader and that gaming is just something easy that any kid can do if they put in enough time and effort.

Ravenous has clearly never played any of the games the OP mentioned.

As for me, old time lurker, first time poster because this is such an epic thread. 2-3yr WoW gamer, quit senior year high school, got back last month after I ended my college junior year internship. Also played SC with southkorean classmates (u can imagine how competitive that was), AoE and many others in the good old days.

One of 10 best guild worldwide, that is impressive. Coordinating 40 people (now 25) to show up every day and motivating them to do what's best for the guild, attend meetings, ascend in rank, etc. is all very impressive and applicable to careers in business. I actually think my current guild master is a better leader than my old boss, lol!

The problem with mentioning this in a resume / internship is that most people with hiring power in Wall Street are like Ravenous, they have never played such games at a competitive level, so they don't know what it takes. Maybe if more ppl like us make it up the ranks in a few years this might change.

 
monkeyoasis:
Ravenous has clearly never played any of the games the OP mentioned.

As for me, old time lurker, first time poster because this is such an epic thread. 2-3yr WoW gamer, quit senior year high school, got back last month after I ended my college junior year internship. Also played SC with southkorean classmates (u can imagine how competitive that was), AoE and many others in the good old days.

One of 10 best guild worldwide, that is impressive. Coordinating 40 people (now 25) to show up every day and motivating them to do what's best for the guild, attend meetings, ascend in rank, etc. is all very impressive and applicable to careers in business. I actually think my current guild master is a better leader than my old boss, lol!

The problem with mentioning this in a resume / internship is that most people with hiring power in Wall Street are like Ravenous, they have never played such games at a competitive level, so they don't know what it takes. Maybe if more ppl like us make it up the ranks in a few years this might change.

Like I said, I'm neutral. I have never played these games and admit that I don't know. But I can assure you that most people are negative, and you will shoot yourself in the foot if you try to pitch that during an interview.

 

Yes, it's because people have no knowledge, are not creative / are risk averse, and because people put an excessively high premium on sports experience because it is highly socially regarded. That said, I can't think of even one really good investor who was a star college athlete, and my bias is against athletes in general when I am hiring (there's zero chance a lax bro even gets an interview). Maybe it's different in banking though.

I played a lot of chess when I was younger at a very high level and that is probably THE reason that I ended up at a top hedge fund. I assume some games are similar. But games are much harder to sell. People are dumb. You have to communicate in well understood narratives.

 
Ravenous:
That said, I can't think of even one really good investor who was a star college athlete, and my bias is against athletes in general when I am hiring (there's zero chance a lax bro even gets an interview). Maybe it's different in banking though.

Mark Holowesko, protégé of Sir John Templeton is an Olympic Athlete.

I don't play, but I recognize the rigor of international competition, and the diligence required by elite gamers. If you're an elite player it is not going to hurt you dropping a title/achievement under 'Interests.' I've met extremely successful people who are vocal about their quirky interests in WOW/comic books/Magic (card game). And, if you connect with them...that definitely makes you stand out.

DELETED_ACCOUNT
 

Actually went semi-pro e-gaming for Counter Strike 1.6 back in the day, those were seriously the days....nothing to worry about except upcoming scrims and matches.

I've always wanted to put this under my Interests section on my resume.

 
oowij:
Actually went semi-pro e-gaming for Counter Strike 1.6 back in the day, those were seriously the days....nothing to worry about except upcoming scrims and matches.

I've always wanted to put this under my Interests section on my resume.

I played a few seasons of CAL-main (before P existed). Lots of lan tournaments, for CS and other games. I seriously think it helped me become competitive and provided a valuable skillset.

I dont have time to type out a huge post, but yes, I do think it is a positive for some people, but no you could never put it on a resume for an IB job.

 
neilol:
oowij:
Actually went semi-pro e-gaming for Counter Strike 1.6 back in the day, those were seriously the days....nothing to worry about except upcoming scrims and matches.

I've always wanted to put this under my Interests section on my resume.

I played a few seasons of CAL-main (before P existed). Lots of lan tournaments, for CS and other games. I seriously think it helped me become competitive and provided a valuable skillset.

I dont have time to type out a huge post, but yes, I do think it is a positive for some people, but no you could never put it on a resume for an IB job.

Same here, sorta! Played 2 seasons of cal-M and a handful on IM. Went to a bunch of lan tourneys and our team even had some small sponsorship's. It was def a great experience and taught me a lot, despite the fact that it was a video game.

 

Just FYI, people in their 30s played video games as well.

LAN party anyone? BBS dial ups RTS games? Or Final Fantasy when it was still a fantasy game instead of a SciFi thriller starting at FF7?

Nothing wrong being a gamer, but its going to be a hard sell as a story/competitive advantage, unless you were fighting for the ZNGA deal. Didn't that MD has a very high level Farmville toon or something, probably farmed out by a poor associate?

 

For what it's worth, I had this on my resume (it's legit) and I was told that this was one of the biggest things that one of my final round interviewers liked about me:

Gaming Club Name Co-founder, President, Video - United gaming community on campus and spearheaded the establishment of an intercollegiate league - Successfully solicited several media outlets for club promotion and publicity, including the New York Times - Secured alumni sponsorship and funding by effectively communicating vision and long-term strategy for club’s sustenance

It's not that they don't understand that gaming can be legit, it's that they want to see more than just that you play it a lot. Kind of like in sports, they're looking for team captains (or at least they should be, I totally agree that the bias is usually overblown on the sell-side), not just players.

But also, they like students who achieve at high levels in sports. I think this is unfair. I was ranked internationally for a bit in Guitar Hero and played Super Smash Bros. competitively, but I didn't dare put that on my resume aside from "competitive/professional gaming" in my "Interests & Activities" section.

 

Ok, read what you wrote again with an open mind.

Asatar:
  • Led a team of 24 people from various cultural and geographic backgrounds
  • Organised and ran activities requiring a high degree of co-ordination from all team members
  • Delegated different roles to each team member depending on their own strengths and characteristics
  • Overcame new problems which required different techniques and adapting to rapidly-changing situations to solve

Pretty good for a fit interview no? That is basically a summary of what I spent several hours a day doing

This could also describe the activities of someone who directed an epic porno. The difference being that this guy would have made a lot of money.
 
SirTradesaLot:
Ok, read what you wrote again with an open mind.
Asatar:
  • Led a team of 24 people from various cultural and geographic backgrounds
  • Organised and ran activities requiring a high degree of co-ordination from all team members
  • Delegated different roles to each team member depending on their own strengths and characteristics
  • Overcame new problems which required different techniques and adapting to rapidly-changing situations to solve

Pretty good for a fit interview no? That is basically a summary of what I spent several hours a day doing

This could also describe the activities of someone who directed an epic porno. The difference being that this guy would have made a lot of money.

Haha point taken! However, professional gamers DO make some good money. StarCraft players can take several hundred thousand dollars a year in sponsorships and tournament prize money, same with Call of Duty / Halo. Even top World of Warcraft guilds get sponsorship deals!

I love this post. I'm sure there are a lot of gamers on here. I was never into anything real hardcore except way back in elementary and a little of middle school I loved Runescape... In college it was all Halo. But I can relate and agree with the leadership aspect. It is a serious time commitment and requires a lot of problem solving and critical thinking to progress in games like WoW.

Blue horseshoe loves Anacott Steel
 

Umm 1) As previously said, never try to use this in a resume or interview. The stigma alone will kill you.

2) Why has nobody brought up the 'personality' difference. Say your role as a gamer has you leading 24 people. And I have no experience with this, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you actually are learning real leadership skills from this. But they're skills in leading gamers. Do you think your colleagues in Finance are going to have personalities at all similar to those gamers? Of course not, finance attracts like masculine, almost 'bro' types. This is why leaders in athletics can make good hires. They have experience leading the personalities found in finance

 

I'm guilty of the gamer-to-finance conversion. I don't play anymore, but spent a lot of time in a WoW-like game throughout the end of highschool and first 3 years of college. Led my own pretty successful guild, but would never dare mention it to anyone in the workplace, lol.

I have definitely thought about everything OP mentioned, but office politics are a scary thing...

Array
 

I am a level 83 hunter, I have one previous MM guild stint but was let go for "fit" reasons. My only other relevant experience was at a neutral AH small-cap alchemy firm. Im on a semi-target realm (Think windrunner, eldre'thalas, whisperwind) and the competition is fierce, basically im wondering what my chances are of breaking into a BB Raiding Guild. I dont have much raid experience but i bought one of the training courses online. Also would I be better off starting in PVP and making a lateral move at the Officer level? Thanks in advance guys.

 

Just to say this is complete rubish. It won't backfire if you know how to phrase it. I was playing Wow too and CounterStrike to a very high level.

I didn't put it on my CV because too much stereotypes associated with it.

But when i was asked about leadership skills, i spoke about it and we basically ended up talking about it for 15 min.

Leading a top guild correctly is by no mean "easy". You have to deal with : - General coordination - Expectation management with regards to loots - Recruiting to avoid "mercenaries" that just want to loot a specific item and leave - Dealing with authority problems as a sub/early 20 to lead random geeks of all ages that might have your dad's age. - Dealing with all the "harsh" aspect of online gaming since people there don't really have inhibitors to behave in a "socially acceptable" way. Jerks are all around the place even more than in a trading floor.

And a lot of other stuff, you deal with more human nature problems than with actual gaming.

So my advice is Don't put it on resume, but DO talk about it on interviews. Work hard on how you want to speak about it to avoid looking like a basement retarded nerd. It WILL set you apart from all the "finance club passionate with finance since age 8" clones crowd.

Be confident, argue well without going into absurd nerdy details, and it will help you.

 

People do have a negative (for lack of a better term) view of gaming, which is weird because there are a lot of casual gamers out there playing Halo, Call of Duty, Counter-strike, FIFA, Madden, etc. The negative view is usually toward the hardcore gamers who compete or people who take it seriously. Games like WoW do take a level of coordination and skill at certain levels because a lot of shit happens during boss fights or competitive matches. Same goes for games like Halo or Counter-strike. Executing game plans, strategy and adapting to split second situations can take a high level of skill. I can't say it should be just as respected as physicals sports only because of the physical aspects involved, which is an inherent difference. But if you are familiar with South Korean culture, then you'll know how professional gamers are viewed.

Do certain games develop leadership skills? Definitely. I remember the CEO of Starbucks mentioned how games like World of Warcraft can develop leadership. God knows how much leadership skills it takes to get a group of ADHD kids to follow directions.

 

I definitely fall into the 30ish age range that has never really been into gaming. I played Halo once in a while in college and have played sports games here and there, but nothing like what you guys are talking about.

My thoughts are exactly the same as Ravenous. I don't hold it against anyone if they're real serious into gaming, but it isn't really a plus in my book. I'd even admit that leading a big group of gamers to success is probably challenging.

However, bottom line is this is normally going to be neutral in my book. Also, if you come off as a guy who'd rather spend his days/nights in the dark parent's basement vs. going out and having fun with live people it would definitely be a negative in my book. Overall, I'd avoid the gaming discussion altogether.

For what it's worth I am not in banking, but I am probably one of the 5% of people on this forum that actually interviews people and participates in hiring decisions.

twitter: @CorpFin_Guy
 

Another game that could get love in finance (but never does) is Magic: the Gathering. It's EXTREMELY skill-intensive at the highest levels of play, and many pro Magic players went on to professional poker and some continued to finance. Jon Finkel, for example, arguably the greatest Magic player in history, hustled underground poker rooms and flew to Vegas during the weekends to count BlackJack while a student at Rutgers and rolled in 6 figures when he was 19 -- he now manages a small(ish) hedge fund in NYC.

And with regards to poker, I played semi-professionally for a few years and DEFINITELY have it on my resume. I get asked about it a lot, and people are really interested (in banking interviews).

 

I have more than a few thoughts on this subject, most stemming from personal experience. My younger brother played, and still plays, lots of video games. I played, and still play (recreationally), lots of sports. It's not to say I never played video games, but it was always with friends and usually something quick and competitive (think Halo or Madden), whereas my brother was more into the single player computer games like WoW, Assassin's Creed, what have you. And no, just because you are wearing a headset or typing to your guild mates doesn't mean you are with other people.

There certainly is a degree of merit involved in being an avid gamer. My brother is extremely intelligent--probably more so than me on a standardized testing basis--and picks things up very quickly. He's historically performed better than me in school, and has almost OCD like tidiness and organization, despite being introduced to medical weed late in high school. He's a member of all sorts of Starcraft clans and COD groups, and admittedly, I can't name a single one.

There are several reasons why a senior level person might not regard this type person with the same respect as the captain of the football or lax team. I'm playing devil's advocate here, because as I said, I think both categories of people deserve merit. So relax before you jump down my throat or hack my computer or something.

-These guys weren't around when video games became as developed and involved as they are now. Even if everything you say is true about "leading 24 people into Mordoor," they literally have zero concept of this. Doesn't register.

-There is zero face-to-face interaction. The best salesmen are in your face, bloodthirsty, testosterone driven people who aren't fazed by hearing "no." There is a difference between leading a team of consultants into a F100 meeting with top management and clicking a few mouse buttons so your goblin dodges the elf's flaming arrow of doom. This may not apply at the analyst level, but standing up straight, giving firm handshakes, and looking your seniors in the eye shows a basic level of respect that isn't taught in videogames. People appreciate that. Ravenous won't hire a person because they played lacrosse; I won't hire a person because they happily forego human interaction to live virtually. If you don't shake my hand firmly, I immediately judge your character.

-Sports represent discipline, especially to older folks. Can't emphasize that enough. Why did almost every single one of my best friend's lacrosse team end up on wall street this year (UVA)? Because in spite of the douchery, drunken behavior, and molestation of strippers (see: Duke), they were up at 5:30 am every single morning--weekends included--running sprints, lifting, in study hall, and watching tape. Literally spent a minimum of seven hours every single day with the sole purpose of trying to win a national championship. People know and understand this.

Do video games require hard work and dedication? Absolutely. No question about it. But most folks outside our generation can't relate to it. Millions of Americans congregate every Monday to watch the NFL. No one that I'm aware of congregates to watch others play video games. At least I hope not. Granted, millions of gamers themselves get online to play every day, so in a way, it's not too much different. I'm not saying sports are better than videogames, athletes better than videogamers; just that it's very, very difficult to justify the latter.

Ravenous--I too played a lot of chess. Still do on my phone all the time, and I would posit that it's still the best game in existence on this Earth. So many variations and strategies, every match is quite literally a war. Unlike most video games, though, it isn't about instant gratification, which I believe puts it in a different category. Also, I think you grossly underestimate how many athletes are on WS.

$.02

 

I can see strategy games being similar to chess. But chess is more widely understood and accepted as a smart person's game. The game has been around since like the 6th century or something. That doesn't mean other games aren't, they're just not recognized.

I don't care how many athletes are on WS. Sports are great for a lot of things. Becoming a successful financier is not one of those things. To the extent that athletes have been pampered their entire lives, that provides a significant disadvantage in the stock market. Maybe it's an advantage in banking and other relationship driven areas. I want people who can sit still for long periods of time, think strategically, and who have no expectations of being treated specially. Athletes can look elsewhere. Are there exceptions? Sure. But mostly an athlete brings nothing to the table except high expectations.

 

I played lots of axis and allies, risk 2210, and chess while growing up and I honestly think that was responsible for the majority of my cognitive development. Learning proper decision making, strategic thought, and how to manipulate people are all skills that you'll learn through these games. I would never put down "board game enthusiast" or anything similar to that on my resume; however, that does not mean that it won't benefit you.

Making money is art and working is art and good business is the best art - Andy Warhol
 

I almost made a living out of competitive gaming before, and I regret it hardcore.

Playing games for fun is OK, like any hobby. Asides from that, not so much.

Some very negative views:

WoW is useless. It rewards you too much for wasted time. It teaches you how to be innefective. Games that have tournaments (SC, FPS, old fighting games, poker) reward you for skill - WoW maybe does that a little bit, but not really.

Games are a waste of life. When we play games we're not helping the world at all, which is true of most hobbies, but games often take a huge amount of time - not cool for an adult.

I couldn't admit it at the time, but it's really not that hard to be pretty good at games. Any idiot spending the whole day playing, researching and developing strategies and doing all that waste-of-life hardcore stuff can get relatively closer to the top, as long as the person has access to good competition - true to some extent on real life, but nowhere near as fast. The main appeal of professional gaming isn't that gaming is fun (it really isn't when you're practicing 12 or more hours a day and your rent depends on some tournament win) - the main appeal is that it is relatively easy to be a top dog. In some games, if you have some talent, you can be among the best in the country/world in a couple years or less - you become worshipped by a lot of unemployed, and you start feeling really good about yourself - try to be a top real life anything (HF manager?) and you'll see the difference. The competition is really weak. The smartest people and the hardest workers are doing better things with their lives for the most part. Kinda harsh, but mostly true in my experience.

The macho-like culture kinda happens though - fighting game tournaments sound a lot like sports competitions (and I don't mean tennis), except that most players look like they never carried a heavy bag or have run a mile. Still, fights break up all the time.

Sports suck almost as much - some barely have any mental strategy at all - the plus from sports is that it shows physical resilience/discipline - a minor positive point I guess.

I don't have anything against light gaming, or watching daytime TV if you like - my issue is that anything competitive/time demanding is a waste, and it looks worse the older you get. If I could replace the thousands of hours I played with some real world knowledge, be it derivatives math, political science, psychology, building houses or anything, I'd feel smarter and more accomplished today.

The older guys got it better cause they just played Pac Man or Super Mario and went on with their lives. None of that sucks-up-all-my-time online BS

 

MMORPGs are a waste of time, for sure. I get addicted to games really easily and have spent far too much time on them. I see some of my friends currently who are still sitting at home playing games all day, grinding til 6am every night, and I thank myself I have more control than they do.

 

Raising my hand.

I used to play MMO's pretty intensively back in the day, was an admin/mod for a server (Ragnarok Online). Nowadays Starcraft is my poison of choice. I would never bring up either in an interview or place them on my resume, simply because of the stereotype/stigma associated with them. However, on a personal level, I think that both experiences have been an interesting learning experience. I'm not the type who would sit for days on end grinding, etc. (except for when D3 came out...) but I would say I play more than the casual gamer.

In terms of being an mod for an MMO server, you learn conflict resolution like nothing else. Especially since I moderated a server whose playerbase was a majority international (Phillipines, Brazil, Europe, etc.), it is a huge lesson in 1) patience, 2) communication, and 3) dealing with lack of sleep (my assigned "working" hours were 10pm to 3am, so I learned very quickly in high school how to get by on 3 hours of sleep, which I think we can all agree is useful for those i-banking all-nighters).

In terms of Starcraft: I've always been an extremely risk-averse person, and playing an MMO is still an environment that allows for risk-averseness (I always played support classes or casting characters, never melee or even sniper-types). Jumping into an RTS game, though, you -can't- be risk-averse; you have to make your own decisions and make them FAST. It doesn't directly translate into the business world, but I think playing the game over and over has eventually upped my decision-making skills. Not to mention my crisis management skills have skyrocketed. Oh, and I've met quite a huge network of individuals, thanks to SC.

Obviously neither experience is directly applicable to my career, but I think that they have helped me develop somewhat on a personal level, which then carries over into my everyday life. For example: if you had asked freshman-year me to be competitive/confrontational with anyone, I would have been terrified and overemotional. Nowadays? No big deal. And as lame as it sounds, I swear that meeting fellow SC fans literally taught me how to network. As for other games that I only dabble with on an occasional basis: huge fan of Tetris (decision-making to the max, not to mention that hand-eye coordination might help with when you're spreading comps on a tight schedule...?) and any type of bullet-hell games (see: Touhou)

On a somewhat related note: always looking for SC2 practice partners/team game partners. PM me if interested :P

/rant

Currently: future neurologist, current psychotherapist Previously: investor relations (top consulting firm), M&A consulting (Big 4), M&A banking (MM)
 

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