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Q&A with Flake, “Don’t waste your time and energy in a back office role.”
 

M Friedman's picture
(King Kong, 1,007
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 8:56pm
Screen shot 2012-04-17 at 8.51.17 PM.png

How do I even begin to introduce Flake? More than anything else, Flake is really here for our enjoyment. Sure, maybe Flake is not as helpful as the legendary CompBanker, but that does not mean he is undeserving a Q&A. Within our interview, there are some real, solid lessons about the realities of networking from the back office to score an elusive FO role. Give the man props, because the BO-to-FO move is the epitome of doing the non-target hustle.

Although Flake has previously done an equity research focused Q&A, I wanted to sit down with him to discuss his back-office transition and his feelings about his current ER role. In this Q&A, Flake discusses his background, how to internally network from the back office, and the qualities of a successfully ER associate.

Please, enjoy, and make sure to look out for more of my Q&A’s with our more experienced users.

---

MF: Let's talk about your background, education, etc. - where did you come from? How did you get your initial Back Office job? What makes you special?

Flake: I went to a non-target state school, and graduated in 2009. How non-target? Well, a few weeks ago I had a meeting with a CEO of one of the companies under my coverage and he asked what school I attended (he was a Wharton UG and MBA man himself). I had to look at the floor, kick around a bit, and mutter the name under my breath.

Where did I come from? Russia, over a decade ago.

I had two summer analyst interviews for my junior year, one was an operations position at the BB that I currently work at, and the other was Blackrock PAG. Looking back, I realize neither of those was great, but I was ecstatic to receive the offers. Given that I was clueless back then, I made my decision based on brand name (I didn’t even know what in the world Blackrock was, seriously).

I thought I was the shit. I thought, “This is it, this is that Finance job that everyone keeps talking about.” I was proud of myself for not even trying and getting those. At $55,000 a year and $10,000 bonus at signing I figured I was well on my way of hitting that $100,000 by 30 goal (seriously, again). If I knew myself back then, I would have slapped the sh*t out of that kid.

What makes me special? The helmet, I guess.

-

MF: How did you know you wanted to work in equity research, if anything?

Flake: I didn’t know I wanted ER until I received my full-time offer at the end of my BB ops summer gig. After doing mindless shit for 10 weeks straight, it finally hit me that there are different divisions within the bank. I realized that operations was not what I wanted and it was definitely not “it”. I still signed the offer given the circumstances.

It was Fall ’08, I believe, and firms were cancelling OCR interviews at the time. I picked up the pace a bit during my senior year and came up with a master plan: 1) work in my BO job at 25% capacity, 2) spend the other 75% learning everything there is to learn about ER and IBD (my passion for both was a result of taking a couple of corporate finance classes during senior year), 3)???, and finally, 4) transition to ER or IB. More on this later…

After reading maybe 4-5 different books on investment banking, becoming addicted to WSJ and Barron’s, and speaking briefly to an ER associate who I met randomly- I knew what I wanted to do.

-

MF: Are you an analyst or associate?

Flake: As you may know, an analyst is more senior than an associate in a sell-side ER hierarchy. This is an external structure that we use for clients, reports, etc. Internally, we still follow the whole Analyst>Associate>VP>Director>MD structure. So my corporate/internal title is a 1st year Associate. Previously, I was an analyst for 2 years (split evenly between ER and BO).

-

MF: You mentioned that you networked your way to an FO associate job (granted some of it was sheer luck)... how would you recommend going about internally networking? What did you learn from your experience of almost getting the boot from networking a little too hard?

Flake: With networking, just be normal. I didn’t want to come off as some try-hard desperate brown-noser, and at the same time I didn’t want to come off self-entitled and cocky. Just be modest, be curious (bi-curious if that’s your thing), ask good questions, let the person talk about himself or herself, and just be able to shoot the sh*t with the person if it comes to that.

Despite my short career and my inexperience, I am still contacted by random people who want to “network” with me. Sure, I meet them. We talk, or try to. Some of them try so hard you can smell their bullshit from a mile away. The others say shit like “so my main concern is that ER is all about writing and modeling, I just don’t want to be stuck looking at an excel sheet all day”. Yes, valid question, but you don’t have to sound like a dick when phrasing it.

You can find my detailed BO to FO story in that Q&A thread I started in December. What I learned: if you want something, you go and get it. All good things require sacrifices; otherwise they are called hand-outs (occupy my ass). If I could go back to the BO, I would do the exact same thing.

-

MF: Talk to us about how to use a company directory?

Flake: Using the directory should be easy. I don’t know how it works at other firms, but I can filter mine by division, title, team, etc, which made it relatively easy to find the people you wanted. The one thing I fucked up on was cold emailing a tech analyst in SF, asking him to grab lunch/coffee. I’m in New York. So just pay attention. When you’re excited to email someone you can make a dumb mistake like that.

Lastly, if ER is your thing, you should have access to your bank’s research reports. Form your questions around those notes when emailing an analyst or an associate. Don’t ask obvious sh*t either; get a little creative with it to show that you are knowledgeable and interested in that sector. Otherwise, I will just attach a copy of my report and tell you to “look on page 3.”

-

MF: What is more important, a superior technical knowledge or superior amicable personality?

Flake: I would never isolate one of those and say that’s the most important. It is a mix of both…also sex appeal helps. For example, I would attribute 90% of my ER transition to my handsomeness. But seriously, you do need both though.

Technical:

1) Helps instill confidence in your clients and establish your credibility as a reliable source of information
2) Having something like the CFA charter should help with your potential move to the buy side
3) Knowing your sh*t will also make your analyst more comfortable with giving you greater responsibility. Your analyst has to be confident in your analysis and at some point the analyst shouldn’t feel like he or she needs to hold your hand.

Amicable personality:

1) ER analysts are not anti-social and they are not geeks or nerds or whatever I’ve seen thrown around occasionally
2) you need be personable when interacting with big institutional accounts and c-level executives of the industry that you cover.

-

MF: What grinds your gears the most when it comes to daily interaction with people (be it supervisors or subordinates)?

Flake: I don’t like people who act self-entitled. I don’t like anyone who constantly argues and tries to convince you they are right, even though they have been wrong the previous 10 times in a row. I don’t like people who get offended easily or can’t handle constructive criticism. I like modesty. I like someone I can grab a drink with and talk about anything, including WORK. Yes, work. Just because you hate your job doesn’t mean I hate mine and should shy away from discussing it in a social setting.

I have one subordinate, if you will; he is a “research assistant”. The thing I hate about him is his lack of attention to detail and his inability to take ownership of what I tell him to do. I feel like he does shit just to finish it, he doesn’t care about the end result and everything he hands over to me is sloppy.

My boss on the other hand, is exactly the type of person I just described. I can talk to him about anything and everything. He is easy-going but he can be strict and he can be a dick if the timing is right and shit needs to get done. That’s what I usually look for in a man.

-

MF: You're one of the people that transitioned from Operations to the Front Office, what advice would you give someone who is trying to do the same thing?

Flake: I may be biased, but don’t waste your time and energy on excelling in your back office or middle office role if your goal is to move as soon as possible. If you are one of those people that thinks your current boss in BO/MO will “refer” you to that banking MD if you work your ass off, you are kind of wrong. That shit doesn’t happen.

Focus on networking and studying (be it for the CFA, GMAT, or just reading relevant books/news). Don’t spend too much time working there. If you are still in a back office role two years after you graduated it is time to pack your stuff and go to business school…that’s just my opinion of course.

What I do now is not related to my BO position at all.

-

MF: What is the most positive part of ER and what is the most negative?

Flake: I discussed most of this in my Q&A thread as well.

My favorite part is that it’s not all grunt work. Even when a client uses me for informational purposes and doesn’t really care about my Buy/Sell/Hold rating (no one does really), I still feel like my opinion is valued and sought after. Every time I hear “Thanks for your time and insight, Flake, very helpful” I get a kick out of that.

When was the last time someone who’s twice your age, who is making probably 15-20x of what you make a year, and who is managing billions of dollars, thanked you for your “insight” or your “time?”

What’s the most negative thing about my job? They could pay me more money.

-

MF: What are some basic qualities specifically needed to be successful at an ER job?

Flake: Confidence. Attention to detail. You must have a passion for your sector and the markets (otherwise you’re just bored). Have the ability to write well, and being selectively direct and concise (not my best quality).

-

MF: Will you be attending the WSO conference?

Flake: I have my ticket to the WSO conference. I don’t know what I’m doing yet, I might dedicate that Saturday to a catnap.

-

MF: Why do you feel like it is important to give back in the realm of solid advice to the WSO community?

Flake: I didn’t even know WSO existed before I started in ER… so I really don’t have anyone here to thank for anything. I never even thought of going on an Internet forum to seek advice on my career or networking, but I sure wish I did. It would have made my transition a lot easier, and more importantly; I would not have felt like I was the only one trying to take that leap. Also, I would like to give back occasionally in return for Patrick letting me troll WSO 90% of the time.

-

MF: I usually open up the end of the Q&A to say anything you may wish (just be nice).

Flake: I just want to give a few shout outs to the people who keep me entertained on WSO:

Nouveau Richie, shorttheworld, heister, Determined, Whiskey5, duffmt6, ekimlacks, WellPlayed, Midas Mulligan Magoo (RIP), swagon, TonyPerkis, malvvar, rothyman, and ah. If I forgot someone, I’m not sorry.

---

Check my past Q&A’s:

Heister (HF)- My Total Worth is North of $50 Million

Patrick Curtis (PE, WSO Founder) Part 1
Patrick Curtis (PE, WSO Founder) Part 2

CompBanker (PE) Part 1
CompBanker (PE) Part 2

See my WSO blogs here.
Tags:

Comments

A Fellow Linguist's picture

Great Q&A. Thanks for doing

 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 9:05pm

Great Q&A. Thanks for doing this.

personofcolour's picture

What was your major, what did

O
(Monkey, 33
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 9:08pm

What was your major, what did you do to demonstrate to employers your interest and aptitude in your various positions (especially your internships), and you mentioned something about handsomeness playing a factor in all of this... what can you say about girth? Is that thrown into the mix?

Also, thanks for the Q&A.

Nouveau Richie's picture

M Friedman: Flake: I just

IB
(Neanderthal, 2,785
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 3:40pm
M Friedman:

Flake: I just want to give a few shout outs to the people who keep me entertained on WSO:

Nouveau Richie, shorttheworld, heister, Determined, Whiskey5, duffmt6, ekimlacks, WellPlayed, Midas Mulligan Magoo (RIP), swagon, TonyPerkis, malvvar, rothyman, and ah. If I forgot someone, I’m not sorry.

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

melvvvar's picture

well done, monsieur flake. i

(King Kong, 1,693
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 9:10pm

well done, monsieur flake.

i myself don't give more than 25% in ANY aspect of my life.

Determined's picture

Solid insight Flake, if I

 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 9:13pm

Solid insight Flake, if I didn't have negative WSO credits I'd throw an SB at ya.

Loved the shout out section at the end as well, namely because I'm in it.

Talent is hitting a target no one can hit.
Genius is hitting a target no one can see.

Febreeze's picture

Flake: That’s what I usually

(King Kong, 1,151
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 9:30pm

Flake: That’s what I usually look for in a man.

RIP WSO Chat.

mongoose's picture

1. How important is

O
(King Kong, 1,029
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 9:57pm

1. How important is quantitative ability in ER? Do you have to have high level of a mathematical knowledge? Is modelling important in ER?

2. Would you recommend non-targets trying to break into ER to take the CFA L1. We all know what M&I has to say about the CFA for people trying to break into IB, but how helpful is it for ER?

3. How are Liberal Arts colleges represented at your firm and department?

4. The dreaded exit option question. Where can you go from sell side ER?

5. What can someone, who is not as handsome or charming as you, do to get an edge in that area. Obviously no one can be like you, but how can people step it up a notch?

Finally, I did not listen to you when you first told me this, but I definitely agree with you about the BO thing. I did not realize it until I did it on my own. I am currently doing an off-cycle BO internship at a bank reconciling trades all day. I can not tell you how much I hate my job. This is the most mind numbing shit I have ever done; I feel like my intelligence in decreasing every day I am doing this job. (I like it though when I look at the trade details and find out the little firm where I work raped a large BB on a derivative trade).

I am going to do everything in my power to break into a FO job by the time I graduate (I'm a Soph now).

Chocobo's picture

Very nice interview! :)

 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 9:56pm

Very nice interview! :) Thanks for taking the time to do it!

leveRAGE.'s picture

"Every time I hear “Thanks

ST
(King Kong, 1,161
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 10:01pm

"Every time I hear “Thanks for your time and insight, Flake, very helpful” I get a kick out of that.

When was the last time someone who’s twice your age, who is making probably 15-20x of what you make a year, and who is managing billions of dollars, thanked you for your “insight” or your “time?”"

Weird that your clients call you flake as well.

swagon's picture

+1 for a dude who respects

EN
(Neanderthal, 2,973
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 10:01pm

+1 for a dude who respects humor on WSO. Good Q&A though I haven't had the chance to read all of it yet.

shorttheworld's picture

midas isnt dead lol

EN
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 10:12pm

midas isnt dead lol

I need a crib, a big estate, I need a boat and that need a lake, I need some salmon that need a plate, that need a chef so I feed my safe

From trading equities to slanging wine in Latin America

A ship is safe in harbor, but that is not what a ship i

swagon's picture

shorttheworld: midas isnt

EN
(Neanderthal, 2,973
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 10:15pm
shorttheworld:

midas isnt dead lol

"Ideas can never die!"

that's probably a V for Vendetta quote or some shit, right?

OMS's picture

M Friedman: I just want to

PE
(King Kong, 1,886
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 10:47pm
M Friedman:

I just want to give a few shout outs to the people who keep me entertained on WSO:

Nouveau Richie, shorttheworld, heister, Determined, Whiskey5, duffmt6, ekimlacks, WellPlayed, Midas Mulligan Magoo (RIP), swagon, TonyPerkis, malvvar, rothyman, and ah. If I forgot someone, I’m not sorry.

ah's picture

I'm not sure how i feel about

ST
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 11:19pm

I'm not sure how i feel about being mentioned last...

I don't accept sacrifices and I don't make them. ... If ever the pleasure of one has to be bought by the pain of the other, there better be no trade at all. A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud.

Angus Macgyver's picture

oldmansacks: M Friedman: I

IB
(Gorilla, 716
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 11:22pm
oldmansacks:
M Friedman:

I just want to give a few shout outs to the people who keep me entertained on WSO:

Nouveau Richie, shorttheworld, heister, Determined, Whiskey5, duffmt6, ekimlacks, WellPlayed, Midas Mulligan Magoo (RIP), swagon, TonyPerkis, malvvar, rothyman, and ah. If I forgot someone, I’m not sorry.

EDIT: Noobfags can't triforce, apparently.

EDIT again: Nope. Sigh. Something up with img HTML tags?

OMS's picture

ah: I'm not sure how i feel

PE
(King Kong, 1,886
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 11:51pm
OMS's picture

Angus

PE
(King Kong, 1,886
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 11:55pm
ah's picture

oldmansacks: ah: I'm not

ST
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 11:58pm

I don't accept sacrifices and I don't make them. ... If ever the pleasure of one has to be bought by the pain of the other, there better be no trade at all. A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud.

OMS's picture

ah: oldmansacks: ah: I'm

PE
(King Kong, 1,886
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 12:00am
Febreeze's picture

yeah it was me. sryz.

(King Kong, 1,151
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 12:11am

RIP WSO Chat.

Human's picture

Kudos to our Russian comrade,

PE
(King Kong, 1,891
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 12:30am

"I am the hero of the story. I don't need to be saved."

valleybandar's picture

Flake, Good thread, 2

O
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 12:31am
aempirei's picture

JamesHetfield: 2. Would you

IB
(Gorilla, 726
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 12:50am

My name is Nicky, but you can call me Dre.

Aragorn's picture

Thanks for your time and

(Orangutan, 335
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 2:21am

"Rage, rage against the dying of the light." - DT

Angus Macgyver's picture

oldmansacks: Angus

IB
(Gorilla, 716
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 3:53am
ai215's picture

Good stuff flake, solid

(Baboon, 117
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 4:36am
zenaku's picture

dick. i know you love me

 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 5:10am
nmartell's picture

Sometimes the back-office can

(Chimp, 8
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 7:08am
Flake's picture

nmartell: Sometimes the

ER
(Neanderthal, 3,595
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 7:29am

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

TonyPerkis's picture

Flake: nmartell: Sometimes

AM
(King Kong, 1,577
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 8:23am

I eat success for breakfast...with skim milk

AndyLouis's picture

that picture is creepy, hey

 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 8:33am

WSO's COO (Chief Operating Orangutan) | My story | Connect with me on Linkedin.

2013 WSO Conference

Nefarious-'s picture

First of all, who gives a

CF
(Neanderthal, 2,216
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 9:48am

You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.

BCbanker's picture

Flake, what are you pulling

IB
(Gorilla, 633
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 11:05am
Flake's picture

BCbanker: Flake, what are you

ER
(Neanderthal, 3,595
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 11:35am

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

TonyPerkis's picture

Flake: BCbanker: Flake, what

AM
(King Kong, 1,577
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 11:55am

I eat success for breakfast...with skim milk

go.with.the.flow's picture

+1 Friedman..although I would

EN
(King Kong, 1,109
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 12:17pm

|| But feeling good and enjoying life are prerequisites to success, not by products of it- Midas Mulligan Magoo ||

Flake's picture

TonyPerkis: Flake: BCbanker

ER
(Neanderthal, 3,595
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 12:20pm

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

swagon's picture

Flake, how have you handled

EN
(Neanderthal, 2,973
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 12:40pm
duffmt6's picture

I feel so honored. Also, I

IB
(Neanderthal, 2,327
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 12:52pm

"Social cohesion and puritanical morality place roughly on my list of concerns between whether I'll pick up jock itch at the gym this week (not likely, since I don't go the gym) and whether it'll rain in Christchurch, New Zealand next Tuesday."
-Eddie

Nefarious-'s picture

Still no apology?

CF
(Neanderthal, 2,216
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 12:52pm

You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.

Flake's picture

Nefarious-: Still no

ER
(Neanderthal, 3,595
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 1:11pm

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

Flake's picture

James I'll get back to you

ER
(Neanderthal, 3,595
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 1:12pm

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

Nefarious-'s picture

Flake: Nefarious-: Still no

CF
(Neanderthal, 2,216
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 1:19pm

You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.

Rey Kong's picture

Very inspiring. Similar story

IB
(Monkey, 51
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 10:16pm
Flake's picture

I work 60 hours a week at the

ER
(Neanderthal, 3,595
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 10:36pm

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

FlakieBear's picture

I haven't been on this site

(Gorilla, 502
 
Points)
 on 4/19/12 at 2:52pm

Power and Money do not change men; they only unmask them

BCbanker's picture

Do people really like ER? We

IB
(Gorilla, 633
 
Points)
 on 4/19/12 at 6:22pm
Flake's picture

BCbanker: Do people really

ER
(Neanderthal, 3,595
 
Points)
 on 4/19/12 at 7:17pm

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

wallstreetballa's picture

Whats your level of stress

ST
(Gorilla, 671
 
Points)
 on 4/19/12 at 8:33pm
wallstreetballa's picture

Rey Kong: I know this site

ST
(Gorilla, 671
 
Points)
 on 4/19/12 at 8:35pm

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