The M.B.A. degree...becoming obsolete?
The M.B.A. degree used to be a sure thing, but today it may be becoming obsolete. T-Rex with a busted ankle, hobbling towards the Cenozoic. How quickly the world can change...
Not too long ago, with a Top 5-10 M.B.A. in tow, you could write your own ticket. Guys and gals going through the M.B.A. pipeline in the late 90's/early 00's had six-figure offers in the multiples by the end of their first-year summer. I'm including the undergrad physical recreation majors and latin poetry majors with little tangible work experience.
The cyclical nature of markets is magnified in M.B.A. world , a cold planet where feelings of self entitlement and superiority go to die, nowadays.
According to Business Week , 16.5% of Top 30 MBA program grads in 2009 did not get a single offer by the time their schools published placement statistics 3 months post-graduation. More and more schools are listing "N/A" in the "% hired" column of their program catalogs. Many recent grads are joining support groups . Heads up to all you GMAT 99-percenters.
As applications decrease across the board, Executive M.B.A. programs are thriving, recording a 59% increase in apps. This may be a telling tale of the future value (at least in the near term) of the M.B.A. diploma.
Their validity may only serve as a compliment to those already in management roles.
As to what the future holds for this often debated degree, it is likely to be strongly correlated with the overall economy. Meanwhile, with job scarcity and higher demand for specific areas of expertise, bespoke suits such as Masters of Finance and Masters of Management programs (up 24% and 20% in recent applications, respectively) are worn far more than ever before. We may even see a return to the double-breasted suit and belt buckle loafer.
If you're interested in Finance and not sure the M.B.A. is for you, I suggest checking out Anthony's web site . It offers in depth analysis of a great alternative degree for those of you more interested in a technical focus...and quite possibly...employment.
Like every Saturday, I wish you guys a fun weekend a preferably another notch...
Enjoy.






Comments
Oh Midas, how do I love thee
Oh Midas, how do I love thee lol
I still think a top MBA is the way to go, if anything simply because so many people on Wall Street have it. I do think that outside of WS getting a specialized masters might be the smart decision. I know from my personal experience that most F500 recruiters very a masters as a masters. The government looks at graduate level education the same.
In the next 10-20-30 years I feel that you will see a movement towards these specialized degrees. Lets face it, a MS only takes 1 year vs 2 for the MBA. Less time out of work, less debt, increase in skills.Usually a win win. At the very least I think you will see an increase in the desire and marketability of these dedicated MS degrees.
Good post Midas!
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i agree that the USA is
i agree that the USA is trending towards the European view of masters degrees. In europe, MSc Finance degrees are very popular, arguably more so than MBAs.
Anthony . wrote: Oh Midas,
Oh Midas, how do I love thee lol
I still think a top MBA is the way to go, if anything simply because so many people on Wall Street have it. I do think that outside of WS getting a specialized masters might be the smart decision. I know from my personal experience that most F500 recruiters very a masters as a masters. The government looks at graduate level education the same.
In the next 10-20-30 years I feel that you will see a movement towards these specialized degrees. Lets face it, a MS only takes 1 year vs 2 for the MBA. Less time out of work, less debt, increase in skills.Usually a win win. At the very least I think you will see an increase in the desire and marketability of these dedicated MS degrees.
Good post Midas!
Hahaha. Thanks bro. You do good work over there. You deserve some pub.
I think a lot of people get suckered into a Master's level degree or in many cases, sucker themselves into thinking they need one. It's not for everyone.
Even though you can't simply make schools outside of the Top 10-25 dead their M.B.A. programs the overall foundation is cracking. I see quite an interesting correlation developing between BB--->boutique migration on Wall Street and M.B.A----> MSF type movements in education. I think you're right about the 10-20 year window.
Though you never know, man. You start posting pics from the Barcelona campus...could be a lot sooner!
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i agree that the USA is trending towards the European view of masters degrees. In europe, MSc Finance degrees are very popular, arguably more so than MBAs.
Not so sure whether it's a change of attitude or a lack of employment opportunities and fear of getting pushed out by complacent middle management.
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i agree that the USA is trending towards the European view of masters degrees. In europe, MSc Finance degrees are very popular, arguably more so than MBAs.
Not so sure whether it's a change of attitude or a lack of employment opportunities and fear of getting pushed out by complacent middle management.
well i think it's that more students are taking these MSc degrees, and simultaneously more employers are finding value in students taking these degrees...add in the fact that it costs 1/2 of the price of an MBA, and pretty soon you'll find that an MSc is a popular and well-known degree.
More well known schools are
More well known schools are offering them also.
MIT, NYU, John Hopkins, Cornell, all have really good MS in Real Estate
MIT, Princeton, WUSTL, Vanderbilt all have good MSF's
CMU, Columbia, and many more have awesome MS in financial engineering or comp finance
Not only are these degrees financially half price, but they are half the time and half the opportunity cost. Every school offers an MBA also so the degree has lost a lot of cache. Now this is not an attempt to devalue the amazing opportunities that a T10 MBA will still offer, but it is showing that there are a lot of other options out there now.
My prediction for the MSF degree. It will really become popular once the top schools start offering it. I think you will see a NYU MSF soon, I think you will see a Gtown MSF soon. Maybe a UCLA MSF. Once you start seeing T10-20 schools offer the degree you will know it is main stream.
Honestly, it is an easy transition and a easy money grab. NYU for example. There has to be at least 20 UG's who are smart enough, but do not have jobs. You can just make them take 9 MBA level finance classes with a class in stats and a class in econometrics and give them a MSF. After a couple years open the program to other students. MIT did something similar. NYU could charge 40K or more for their MSF.
40K x 20 students = 800,000. Almost a million bucks additional revenue with not that much added cost. Once the program takes off you can increase it, make it PT, make 2 cohorts, whatever. I could juice a NYU program to a 1.5-2 million a year program in 3-4 years.
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I believe we are going to see
I believe we are going to see a more apprenticeship style of deveopment for white collared jobs, and more specialized degrees like MSF could become of more value than MBA's in the near future.
Anthony . wrote: More well
More well known schools are offering them also.
MIT, NYU, John Hopkins, Cornell, all have really good MS in Real Estate
MIT, Princeton, WUSTL, Vanderbilt all have good MSF's
CMU, Columbia, and many more have awesome MS in financial engineering or comp finance
Not only are these degrees financially half price, but they are half the time and half the opportunity cost. Every school offers an MBA also so the degree has lost a lot of cache. Now this is not an attempt to devalue the amazing opportunities that a T10 MBA will still offer, but it is showing that there are a lot of other options out there now.
My prediction for the MSF degree. It will really become popular once the top schools start offering it. I think you will see a NYU MSF soon, I think you will see a Gtown MSF soon. Maybe a UCLA MSF. Once you start seeing T10-20 schools offer the degree you will know it is main stream.
Honestly, it is an easy transition and a easy money grab. NYU for example. There has to be at least 20 UG's who are smart enough, but do not have jobs. You can just make them take 9 MBA level finance classes with a class in stats and a class in econometrics and give them a MSF. After a couple years open the program to other students. MIT did something similar. NYU could charge 40K or more for their MSF.
40K x 20 students = 800,000. Almost a million bucks additional revenue with not that much added cost. Once the program takes off you can increase it, make it PT, make 2 cohorts, whatever. I could juice a NYU program to a 1.5-2 million a year program in 3-4 years.
True and true. Unfortunately, I think some of the MBA luster is gone precisely because of this sort of approach. A bubble in education's like any other bubble...has to burst, eventually.
Do you know if there's a general requirement for MSFs to have a dissertation-style capstone? I think if this were an across the board requirement the degree would maintain validity even if every 8th tier school in the country offered it and "polluted the gene pool".
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I think part of the problem
I think part of the problem is "lifers" who go from undergrad straight to MBA with no experience what so ever. It happens in ever school regardless of status and those guys tend to cheapen the degree.
Second, there is a diminishing marginal returns to an MBA. (as you point out) They are simply more and more of them every year, so if you want them 6 figs you have to go abroad. BRICs for example.
I also think the current cycle is an issue too as new grads have to compete with experience "old grads" for few opportunities that exist. Specialized training tends to give people a leg up or one can do something like MBA + CFA, or some other value designation.
Everything is an investment with its own present value.
You people are forgetting to
You people are forgetting to add the value of the status - both psychological and societal - that comes with earning an MBA at a top 10 school. Besides, you look at the bios of all the top MD's, Partners, VPs, and it's top ten MBA through and through.
To what degree does everyone
To what degree does everyone think an earning a MSF pigeonholes you and limits future opportunities?
A program that intrigued me was Seattle University's MSF program with the Business Valuation Specialization.
http://www.seattleu.edu/albers/inner.aspx?id=23948...
http://www.seattleu.edu/uploadedFiles/Albers/Gradu...
As a follow-up, the reason I
As a follow-up, the reason I ask is because I have zero finance work experience however I do have more than a few years of management and sales experience. As I graduate from a non-target with a degree in finance with a decent major GPA (3.7), I am worried that a MSF would limit my options if I cannot find an opportunity in finance (which I am concerned about because of my lack of any work experience related to finance).
nrthfrk16 wrote: As a
As a follow-up, the reason I ask is because I have zero finance work experience however I do have more than a few years of management and sales experience. As I graduate from a non-target with a degree in finance with a decent major GPA (3.7), I am worried that a MSF would limit my options if I cannot find an opportunity in finance (which I am concerned about because of my lack of any work experience related to finance).
I would suggest networking..nearly anything is possible with networking.
MSF offers a TON of
MSF offers a TON of flexibility. Does not pigeon-hole in the least.
1- Night classes. Thus you can do internships OR work FT during the day OR do nothing. Up to you.
2- Lets say the program is 36 hours (3 semesters). You get a FT job, you can simply reduce the course load and extend your graduation date out another session or two.
3- Don't have job lined up and graduation approaching? Drop a class and graduate later, use the time to network. People don't realize exactly how long your program is or when you started it. To them you are just "in school".
4- All new GPA. Get a 4.0 your first semester and people won't focus on that 3.0 undergrad as much. Basically 4 A's helps cover up 100+ hours of B's.
I am doing a MSF, started in the spring and worked PT that semester. Found an internship for the summer so didn't do school. This fall was taking 12 hours but got FT job and dropped to 9. Will graduate Summer 2011.
Let's say I don't like my FT job, I network this whole year and time it so I leave my job just as I'm graduating. Makes it seem like the job was to gain experience while in school vs that "first job of your career" where you need to stay longer and everything is referred back to it.
Finally, YOU CAN STILL GET YOUR MBA.
5th year is basically a reset button and gives u tons of flexibility. Best decision I have ever made.
Great post...I agree that the
Great post...I agree that the MBA has been devalued, unless you make it into a top program. Even then, graduating from one of these great schools saddles you with so much debt that you need to land the big jobs. The MSF is catching on, for alot of good reasons (as stated above) but usually this means that the costs will be rising as well. Something like the CFA, CA, CPA, etc.gives you the education while working, especially the CFA which has gained respect due to the pass rates. Most peole forget education is one of the largest industries in the world and they will teach you classes as long as you can pay for them... I often wonder how much education is enough? I am starting to see the swing back to a preference for experience now that everyone is over-educated.
For those who are looking into an MBA here is a link to help the decision a bit:
http://poetsandquants.com/
~If money could talk, it would say "goodbye".
I recently took the GMAT and
yes they look @ gmat some
MSF and MBA are for different
@Midas - Not every school has
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Anthony . wrote: @Midas - Not
A question regarding MBA vs.
This discussion is missing a
I think for someone seeking a
Anthony, do people who
I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment.
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eokpar02 wrote: Anthony, do
Does anyone here actually
I will agree with above to an
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bucky wrote: Does anyone here
Haywood J'Ablowme wrote: I
For my aspiring Entrepreneurial Nomads, check out my blog.
I am getting my MBA. Classes
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No one doing hiring on wall
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Banking Resume
WUSTL places very well in NY
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Anthony . wrote: @Midas - Not
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I welcome topic suggestions
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Swamped at the moment myself.
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Great read guys, very
No problem Josh. I always
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A couple comments came up
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ideating wrote: No one doing
econ wrote: A couple comments
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^ What? I have a hard time
ThaVanBurenBoyz wrote: Econ,
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My comments were with
ThaVanBurenBoyz wrote: ^
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ThaVanBurenBoyz wrote: My
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Anthony .
ThaVanBurenBoyz
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Top Ranked U.S. 1 University
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In the last few comments, no
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midas and others, what are