Working at Toronto Boutique

Wow, you're pretty stupid. The bonus will come at the end of your internship. Why would they give you the bonus now? So you can dick around the rest of the summer?

which boutique?

Manbearpig,

It's not a bonus at the end kind of situation. It's bonus as you add value or as $ comes into the firm.

So... you're asking for an early bonus just because you spotted some numerical errors and booked meetings? Hate to tell you this, but that's not mind blowing value add there.

Like MBP said, given this isn't a salary-set situation and pure bonus, you'll get your bonus at the end of the internship. It's June, I'm assuming your time there doesn't end till end of summer August. If you're worry they'll cheat you, you can try and have a conversation early August with your immediate boss. Asking about this now is sending off the wrong message.

As "unfair" as it is working unpaid at a boutique, and also you losing out your BB SA offer for whatever reason - well, life's tough (it's unfortunate and I'm not trying to be snide, just matter of fact - but there are also worse things - you could end up painting houses for your summer 'internship').

I think you just have to make the most of it. I think one way to try and work in the bonus talk is to make sure you communicate often with your immediate boss/staffer. Make sure he knows you're alive and looking for more responsibilities. Ask him for his feedback after you've done something. It makes it easier for him to go to bat for you come time for the bonus.

EDIT - just saw your whole 'compensation for value add' details to MBP. Like I said in the beginning, a couple catches of mistakes may not constitute as 'value add' worth bonus moolah. In such a case where it's not a lump-sum bonus, it's important that you're both on the same page as what the IB defines as 'value add', so that you don't think you deserve more and get less, or so that you can also properly document when you added value add (by their definition) and bring it up in a professional manner if they short-change you.

The whole thing that irks me is how unstructured it is and how I really have no idea of how much I'll be making, or when.

Also, I've asked to do more and take on more projects where real value will be added, if you want to call it that.

But I suppose waiting it out would be best. Best case, I can hedge a FT offer from this firm against other offers I get and fall back on it should the BB FT don't work out.

Anyone here know how much Toronto boutiques pay for FT? This is a real boutique, not Lazard or GHL.

btw, MBP - I'm sure you are aware that BB's and Boutiques do give you signing bonuses, relocation stipends etc. in addition to a generous salary - yet do all of their SA's "dick around" for the summer?

If the incentive structure you have in mind is "bonus at the end of the work term to maximize profit" then fuck it, every bank should be paying out $$$ commensurate with value-added on August 31!!

In our meetings, the VP used the word bonus and commission interchangeably.

"think of this as not unpaid, but 100% commission" were his words.

I guess in my using of the term "bonus" here, I mean it more like commission.

The culture here is really laid back, which is partially why a formally written out structure has not been given.

Kind of surprised me considering I jumped into i-banking from liberal arts.

Woah woah woah...are you saying that you didn't get anything in writing? What did he say the commission was based on? Revenue? Volume? Savings? How did you not ask for these details?

.

I've asked multiple times now, hence the frustration in my initial post. I feel like I'm almost nagging since they keep telling me they'll give me one. I understand I am "just" a summer analyst and I am pretty grateful I'm even working in Ibanking!

But, it's been just over 4 weeks working here and I should have had something in writing by now, even without my constant asking.

Oh I see. So you haven't been repeatedly asking for the bonus, just to find out what the terms are for the commission payout? Yeah that's completely unreasonable from their end not to give that to you already. Who have you been talking to? Maybe you can ask someone else? If you don't get anything in the next 2-3 weeks, tell them that it's been a good experience and thank them for the opportunity, but just walk away. You don't want to work for such an unprofessional company, and they probably won't give you a good reference if they don't respect you enough to give you the terms of your employment.

How did you not land a BB if youre at a target with great EC and GPA?

That's like asking how didn't you get into HBS with great work experience and great GMAT. You know there are about 10 billion reasons for not getting the job offer even with great credentials on paper. if you would really like to know mine, pm me.

You're in liberal arts at a Canadian school - that's how you didn't get a good job. Almost all BB recruiting in Canada is from Commerce. FYI, there is no such thing as a "target" liberal arts program in Canada.

Bi-Winning, Thanks a lot!

I'm politics-economics FYI.

Also, at Queen's (not sure about IVEY etc.), non-Commerce students are invited to the recruitment session. I kind of parachuted into i-banking when I was on exchange in Paris the semester before and went all the way to the final round with Barcap, unfortunately one of my interviewers on the final day began arguing with me about Portugual. She was optimistic (saying Portugual wouldn't need any help), I was pessimistic. I turned out to be right, but didn't get the job so I lost out.

Anyways, I think if you do go to a target school even if you are not in business, have good grades, work experience, and know your shit, you can get offers in ibanking and SnT.

...Canada's Big 5 BB? How do I get into this mythical group of banks?

I don't want to debate this for too long, because you're both young, inexperienced idiots who don't know what you're talking about.

I've been through the process and I know nearly all of the entering analyst classes at the Toronto office banks (this ranges from Goldman to RBC). There is no doubt that 95% of the kids in IBD, if not more, are Commerce. This is just a plain fact. There is a reason that Queen's Commerce and Ivey get all of the good placements. Also, I don't think many people give a fuck about places like Scotia/TD, but maybe that's just me being arrogant.

I am not saying it is NOT possible to get a job in IBD from a liberal arts background, I am just saying the odds are incredibly stacked against you. You are NOT a target. I don't think you guys understand what "target" means. At QC/Ivey, we had Goldman/Credit Suisse/etc. coming to campus, hosting info sessions, networking sessions, dinners, etc. For the liberal art kids, you have, at best, postings (or, if you're really lucky, invites to the OCCASIONAL networking session). Do you think that makes you a target? Seriously? In Canada, banks target programs. The only two actual targets across a wide array of banks are QC/Ivey. Outside of that, the occasional school may be a target for the local Canadian banks (ex. RBC), but that's it.

Bi-winning, you are a freshman. Do yourself a favour and stop talking - your post is stunningly arrogant (and give away your obvious insecurities...yes, Commerce students really think the ability to send emails implies they deserve IBD...idiot). Ivey easily sent 60 kids into IBD this year alone...not exactly on the same playing field as your "4-5" QC econ students.

.

Thanks for the stats, I'm guessing you are a HBA 2010?

For SA recruiting in HBA1, Would you say that past experience in ibanking/hf/pe makes a big impact on one's ability to land interviews/offers, or is it just grades+fit that has most of the emphasis?

Also wondering, what are the figures for Ivey HBA full-time/SA placements into Consulting and S&T like?

PM'd.

:) :)

Marc no one cares that non-QC/Ivey kids get hired - no shit they do. And great for Scotia/TD bro (TD having newcrest really changes things, thanks for your 2 cents).

You have spent how many posts shitting on the OP, since he does not study commmerce or go to a "target". I am pretty sure you made your point the first 3 times.

Yet you have not given the OP any actual advice, like how you as analyst would see such an internship on the OP's resume. How else you think the OP could compete or spend his summer if he chooses to quit. What did you see in the 5% of non-commerce grads who either work with or at other shops.

No instead you have written, basically OP don't show up the odds are too stacked against you over and over. My post may have been somewhat pointless but 80% of this thread sure is too.

yeah i agree

This thread is so lulz-y.

ucla is correct though, In Canada, if you're not in Ivey, you'll be facing a serious uphill battle.

Canada is not the U.S., where Columbia College, Cornell CAS, UPenn CAS, Yale College and Dartmouth College (all liberal arts) etc. are legit targets for IBD.

When did I ever suggest that non-QC students have a completely leveled playing field? Since when was mathematics a liberal arts degree? What makes you guys assume that I am even interested in investment banking as a career? Had that been the case, I certainly wouldn't have left the commerce program in the first place. I had realized that I would need an MFE to fulfill my goals and compulsory commerce courses such as 'Introduction to Human Resources' wouldn't meet the cut. Regardless, this thread has been tragically derailed...

This thread is full of so much fail it is unbelievable.

I am pretty confident going into FT BB recruiting with this boutique internship to offer. Yes, they finally gave me the bonus info/structure I requested and they have me working on deals.

It all depends on the person - I parachuted into i-banking in Oct. 2010 and by Feb 2011 was doing superdays with global BB's.

Yes, lib-arts students most of whom want to be lawyers anyways, do have the odds stacked against them. I don't know or really care what goes on at Rotman or Mcgill. I know at Queen's, non-Commerce kids were invited to recruiting sessions and receptions by Goldman, MS, CS, Barcap, RBC.

Anyways, all of this is besides the point. To those who ARE analysts or associates or whatever, in general, what would be the best way to leverage a boutique internship into a BB or MM FT offer?

Curious of reply.

I acknowledged that the odds are stacked against non-business students. So there was no bubble being burst here.

End of discussion on that - if you are on WSO and are studying political science, history etc. it will be ten times as hard for you to land a ibanking offer.

"Anyways, all of this is besides the point. To those who ARE analysts or associates or whatever, in general, what would be the best way to leverage a boutique internship into a BB or MM FT offer?"

This is the point of the thread.

Curious to read educated responses.

Can we all agree to cut the douchey discouraging comments? Just offer the guy some tips that will make his chances better.

:) :) :) :)

8====D~~ :-) --------> :'-(

This thread is full of fail. I spend 3 years at a Canadian BB and everyone had a BCOMM in Finance. If you do not have a BCOMM in Finance, they will question you.

Bye

You are one cool douche bag wikileaks. Your intelligence is awe inspiring. When you learn how to read what the topic of the current conversation is about, feel free to post again.

Oh wait, let me guess, you are going to write back: I am so smart I work at BB and I can write what I want.

Cool.

Man, IBD in Toronto seems really depressing. You basically need to have a high GPA and go to a target school to have any chance at getting into a decent firm, or spend the rest of your days making pitchbooks at a 5 person boutique with shitty deal flow.

edit: to clarify, I meant IBD in toronto sucks if you dont have a high GPA and come from a target school. At least kids at non targets in America and/or with low GPAs can always hope to network their way in or something else.

Enough trolling by QC, Queen's Econ (lol) and kids from assorted shiesty schools. Canada has 3 "targets" at most for Toronto IBD. Even then you need top marks and experience. Only ONE of them is a "semi-target" for the US. All this sad banter from Canadians makes me depressed. Respect yourself and either transfer or accept working Big 4 audit. Please and thank you.

IG

It's not even target schools, it's also the program (commerce/finance, or sometimes they may look at engineering). It's because unlike banks in US where they have longer training programs (2 mths), in Canada it's more like 2-3 wks. So they need to bring in students with a lot of the concepts already learned.

That said, there are more legit mid mkt boutiques than people think. The one the OP's in sounds a bit sketchy (at least intern pay-wise), but there's a bunch of names if you look.

^ Truth on the straightforward part. VERY hard for liberal arts types to convince firms in Canada to give them interviews. Maybe if you finish all levels of the CFA - but even then, they don't like having to 'train' you. Best bet for these folks is MBA

In terms of mid markets, I was thinking firms like CCC, Haywood, Mackie (mentioned).. yeah pretty much your list. Some of these firms have people from 2nd/3rd tier schools, but they're still from commerce/finance/quant-heavy type backgrounds.

Dundee is crappier than the other mid markets?

One part that is good for ppl breaking into banking in Canada is that it's CA-friendly. Whereas there's a stigma attached to accountants in US.

In Canada, it's not uncommon to see someone with 3yrs of audit (with their CA) move into the big 6 domestic banks (but not the global ones) assuming there is a need for analysts. But this option is obviously only open to top performers, and also these CAers come from the Ivey/QC/UofT/Schulich undergrad b-school programs - so again, non-commerce are shut out.

^ I know the CFA is useless for banking. Re-read my post, I'm implying that the CFA is a way a non-finance program candidate can try to convince shops that they have the interest and competency. But ultimately they will have better odds with a good MBA

Interestingly though, the CFA does carry some weight or gets some slight nods (at least moreso than US, but less so than Asia).

god this thread is a really big downer

what is a non-target low gpa canadian to do?

Sort of off topic but GMP and Genuity are leagues above the other boutiques mentioned.

In Canada it's a numbers game and if you're not in Queens Commerce or Ivey, or Waterloo for S+T, you're chances are exponentially slimmer. That's just how it is.

Easiest way for non-targets to get into Big 4 banks or above mentioned top boutiques is to work in industry and get an MBA or lateral from a mid/top level top boutique.

End of story.

From what I've been told, Bay Street firms first recruit at Richard Ivey, and then Queen's Commerce takes up anything that's left. For Wall Street, it depends on the bank as to which one is the bigger target.

That said, this was never part of the OP's question. :p

/thread

Of the many bankers I know in Canada, all of them are are Dean's List students and top 5% GPA in their year. You could land a IB job in Canada with a moderate GPA if you are a girl but you better be a) hot as hell, b) have previous IB experience.

Breaking into IB from Canada, is NOT a joke. If you are not Commerce/HBA and GPA >3.65/4.00 and have previous finance experience, you will not get in.

SA interviews are soo technical.. let's not even talk about the FT interviews .. lmao

GL canucks.

I believe my firm for FT is 60ish base with a cash bonus paid after every deal closes.

JDimon100:

So back in February, I got snubbed by a BB ibank for a SA position in Toronto. I ended up cold-emailing boutique firms in Toronto and joined one here. When I met the guy, he told me the summer post would be unpaid with a bonus and that I would "make more money here than I would in any other internship."

Now a month in, I have yet to be paid, even though I have added value (finding (correcting rather) trading multiples for an acquistion, setting up a meeting with a potential client looking to sell etc.) I find it awkward asking about my bonus but frankly, this is starting to piss me off, especially because we just closed one deal and I have yet to be told anything.

I asked several times and was told I would be given a structure and I am not in a position to be working for free for an i-bank - something I also find to be ethically unfair (these are companies put on this earth to make money!!)

I am pretty frustrated here but am hoping to get through the summer and leverage this boutique internship during FT recruiting in the fall (I go to a target, great GPA + ECs).

What should I do? It's so frustrating!

Hey JDimon100,

Which boutique is that? I am looking for a boutique in Toronto for a fall internship. It's better to email me the name of the boutique instead.

Thanks

in which which Boutique you are and what is criteria they having....for bonus...