WSO Podcast | E54: Associate Partner in M&A Strategy at Top Consulting Firm
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Member @ParkAve shares his journey -- From working in sales, using an MBA to pivot into a Fortune 20 FLDP program and his latest move into M&A strategy at a top consulting firm. Learn how much he got paid at each level, as well as the various skills he developed in each stage of his career and how they influenced his path.
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WSO Podcast (Episode 54) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis. Your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me! As I talked to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, Member ParkAve shares his journey from working in sales using an MBA to pivot into a Fortune 20 flagship program and his latest move into M&A strategy at a top consulting firm. Learn how much he got paid at each level, as well as the various skills he developed in each stage of his career and how they influenced his path. Enjoy. ParkAve, thanks so much for joining the Wall Street Oasis podcast.
ParkAve: [00:00:57] Thank you for having me today.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:00:59] It'd be great if you could give the listeners a little bio.
ParkAve: [00:01:02] Happy to. So my background is a little bit different than a lot of folks in the consulting world. I worked in industry out of both undergrad and B school. And then made a transition to consulting kind of not later in life, but just a few years after B School. And I worked for a couple large firms, several basically all top 10 strategy firms, some with more of a focus on strategy, some more focus on operations and of kind of risen to the level of associate partner.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:01:41] Great. And so in terms of just go all the way back to undergrad, you know, you were, you know, not a finance major accounting major. And what kind of made you think, OK, I'm going to go into industry right now, and I think you were. Yeah, did you join an FLD program financial leadership? I think it's, you know, financial leadership development program right out of school or what was the first step?
ParkAve: [00:02:02] Yeah, no. So right out of undergrad, I was at technical, a technical major and people, you know, should you get a PhD or a master's or go into some advanced training? And you know, it wasn't interesting to me. I did some internships there and then I did like a sales internship with a with a tech company and I was like, Oh my God, this is amazing. I'm doing tech and I'm like talking to people. I'm like moving and shaking all this stuff. And so I actually went into sales. So I was a salesperson, pre business school. But, you know, being a salesperson for a while, it was great. I was working for a big company and very well-known was hit my numbers. Things were good, but I said, you know, I feel like I like I'm a technical person doing business, and I feel like I'm like missing a step. Like, I don't understand, like finance, fully and accounting and all this kind of stuff and marketing and strategy. And you know, I would read the Harvard Business Review and like, implement it at my job and people are like, Oh, where'd you go with this great idea? And it's like, I read the Harvard Business Review and people look at me crazy, so they should explore this. So that's when I went on to business school and I was recruited out of business school by a Fortune 20 company to join a Post MBA leadership program. As very you know these some of these leadership programs a lot of don't realize they're really they're extremely hard to get into because they usually don't have that many spots, right? And they they promote the heck out of them. So I mean, I think there is well over a thousand or more serious applicants or interviewed and only one hundred people got in around the world. So it was kind of cool to be part of that club. And he was a rotational program. So it's very consulting like they kind of drop you into a business for, you know, six months or three months or whatever the rotation period. And you're given like a problem statement. It's like, Go, figure it out. So you're in this like billion dollar P&L and you have to learn the people process, technology, product, all that stuff and you're moving to. So like you're flying home on weekends, you've got to move, you got to find apartment and get the cable hooked up and all that kind of stuff. And it's pretty challenging.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:04:11] And every six months you're saying, every six months, you're jumping everything at once.
ParkAve: [00:04:15] You basically have to figure out like everything and solve a problem in a few months. And it's exciting because you're a one man band, but you have to build that community. You have to like build networks, build trust, do all that stuff and crunch the numbers. Find out where the data is hidden. You know, do all the stuff that you would do as its own and do it very quickly and you have the support of a team or prior work or all this other stuff that we, you know, we think of and consulting. So it was kind of at boot camp. And then every six months, you just start all over somewhere else. And the work you did before never helped you at the next one. Because these businesses are so big, you know, people don't realize how it's like being inside of like a, you know, 10, 20, 30 billion dollar company, 40 50 hundred billion dollar company. So did that did a few of those. And then I then I finished there and they said, Hey, we'd love you to. They started some new business ideas and they wanted me to run with it. So I took on a new business. I was running a business for a while.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:05:04] So before, before we go on, before we go in there, let's go back to the MBA. So you did undergrad, you were in industry for a while. You said, Hey, I need to know more business. I need more business knowledge. There's I'm missing a step. So you went and got your MBA. And during that time, can you tell me a little bit about your thought process, like what you wanted to do? Were you looking at investment bank or are you looking at management consulting?
ParkAve: [00:05:25] Yeah, so yeah, it's happy to back up on that. So many years, so many years go by. You just kind of like glossed over stuff and multiyear chunks. So apologies. No, it's fine. You know, reality is like I was in school, you know, to start with, everyone has the so anyone listed this and goes to B school or is looking at first thing you do the first day as you go, I don't belong here like because you meet all these people who are like, you know, smart, accomplished and speak seven languages and worked at the U.N. or worked at the investment bank. And you're like, Oh, wow, you know, I don't know if I fit in all these people with economics degrees from the. Fancy schools and you know, yeah, that's the first thing you get through is this whole like, wow, do I belong here and someone raises your hand classmate? It's amazing answer and you're like, I don't even know what he's saying, let alone where he found the answer. You go through all that. So I went through all that. So anyone who's listening to this, you know, in your kind of first semester of your MBA or something right now, you're going through it. Don't worry, it'll be fine. Grades don't really matter as much as you think. Yeah, but as I thought about it, I was, I try to actually be open. I was looking at Investment Bank A, I was looking at consulting a little bit, looking at corporate roles, and then ultimately I decided on going into a corporate roles. I just I take it like one finance course and, you know, at that point. So for me to go into like an investment banking interview and talk shop, I didn't feel like I was properly set up, set myself up for that. Mm hmm. So I think if anyone you know, as soon as is in a non-technical background, I mean, a non-banking background wants to think about investment banking or consulting, like make sure you know what you'll need to know for the interviews ahead of time. So you've done case prep work for consulting or you've done a modelling boot camp and have a pretty good handle on what's going on in financial markets. Before the interview, because you will be asked, right, you're going to be asked like, Oh, you know, how would you construct this model or like? And they always ask, you know, here's a hypothetical situation, or here's a real situation. How would you set up the model? How would you develop an incoming hypothesis and or, you know, more detail than that? So you should be, you know, anyone who's thinking about any of these kind of careers, be prepared before you go in because you know everyone else will be so you want to make sure you're there, too. So at that time, I said, you know, I did what I wanted do my internship in the tech field and I found I found a great job. I went to a conference and I networked with the CEO, actually the CEO of this like big company on the West Coast. And I just rolled up on him. I said other things. You have to be courageous to anyone. It's going to be courageous, like make phone calls you're afraid to make, you know, talk to people that you think won't talk to you because a lot of other people will self-select themselves out. So I reached out to this guy. It's a conference, you know, successful running multibillion dollar companies rolled up on. I was like, Loved your speech? Here are my three boats I had was ready to go. I like, went dove right in and you know, I'd love to talk to you about an internship someday. And it's crazy, right? This guy's got like thousands of employees and he's like, he was just like, Wow, he's like, Yeah, I'd love to talk, hands me his business card with his personal cell on it. And that's how I landed my summer internship. I called the guy up.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:08:35] You just called a cell phone. When did you decide to actually call yourself?
ParkAve: [00:08:38] Just called him up and say, because I was looking at other opportunities and there's lot of stuff. It's like back and forth and just taking forever. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to call this guy. Yeah, and let the message you contact the next day. I'm sitting in class and be like finance class and my phone rings ea code. That's a it's like, I don't know. I was like I can't remember the San Diego area code, but then I'm like, You know, look, I was like, you know, one to three, I'm like, one, two three, what the heck? And I was like, Oh my God, that's San Diego, that's so-and-so. And I ran into the hall and said, Hey, how are you doing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you have a few minutes to talk? I'm like, Yeah, so you know, we rapped for a minute, and then he I got a call two months later and basically the two guys from the C suite, you know, I mean, I don't know why it's the funniest situation to see. So they basically barraged me for like an hour about the worst interview process ever, like they were like hammering me. And at the end, the one guy looks at you could hear him go, what are you sort of think? Yeah, he's like, so do you want to come work for us? I was like, Sure, yes. Yes. You know, it was so nontraditional. It was an amazing experience. I went to live in California for the summer. I was doing all kinds of cool stuff, you know, so great experience. So that's the other piece is that don't be afraid to make your own path. So is the campus recruiting? Do that, but make sure you're doing something a little different, you know, set yourself up. That gives you an edge, like the boxer Mike Tyson used to get up, I guess, like four or five in the morning go jogging. And he used to do that because they said, No, my competition still asleep. So think of that as an angle.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:10:15] Got it. And so you go there for the summer, but you still are you kind of saying, OK, for sure, I want to go consulting at this point? Or are you thinking, are you leaning towards did you do any case interviews during your MBA? Like, did you actually do?
ParkAve: [00:10:27] You're just, you know what? At that point, I did not think about consulting. I thought more about investment banking because the company offered me a job. I decided not to take it. Tell me why. While I was there,
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:10:38] They said, Yeah, tell me why, you know? Because a big company, it sounds like it's doing well. I'm sorry, it sounds like it was doing well at the time. It's a big company, like you said the CEO.
ParkAve: [00:10:47] And yeah, yeah, it was like six weeks in there, like, Hey, want to come work for us after you're done? I was like, Oh, this is cool. I guess they liked me, you know? But I said, you know, thank you and think about it, and I ended up turning away the offer. But I start thinking about investment banking, my interest in financial markets. I start taking more finance courses, my second first semester, second year, and I was like, like flying through it, doing really well, just like just it was just sinking in and I was like, Wow, I really get this is actually really interesting. I was doing really well in all the classes. So I yeah, that's when I threw my hat in the ring there. So I interviewed with, you know, a couple of bulge bracket banks, you know, the top, you know, three or four banks and then a couple of middle market banks.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:11:31] I would assume it's super hard to actually land a job if you don't have that summer, associate Rolo on your resume.
ParkAve: [00:11:37] Did. Yeah, I mean, you've got to start there. Um, they really target the summer associate.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:11:43] So were these like extra seats that just happen to be open because or they were just it just surprised me that there is even any many seats left at all for someone who didn't have the banking background. Do you know what I mean? But yeah,
ParkAve: [00:11:56] Back then I learn how to be persuasive. You know, you have, I think, a big in sales before business school really helped me to be, you know, sure confidence and be well-prepared and just have your act together and think of something of an edge. You know, if you've been, you know, when I would be networking them and said, What'd you do for the summer? And I would tell them and I tell that story, I'd tell you, and they'd be like, Wow, this guy, you know, can be concise, can be persuasive to like a CEO. You know, I think he could, you know, we at least need to talk to him, right? Right, right. And so I would think that, you know, do things like that to make yourself interesting to anyone here. And I say this because let's just take one investment bank, talk to your investment bank, talk to your consulting firm. All they do is go to the top schools, interview the best people and then weed out the best people to get the best of the best people to come work for them. Right. So if you're one of those people who's in that kind of community of the best of the best, you know, you're fighting it out against them and you're not guaranteed a slot just because you have a three eight GPA at one of an Ivy League school. There's dozens of people like you, probably enough for less than you think. So I think that always make yourself interesting and differentiate it. There's got to be something about you and I, and everyone has something and I don't know what. There's no magic formula for everyone, but make yourself interesting. So for me, it was really that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:13:14] I think that's a really, I think to stop there. It's a really important point. It's why we always kind of really emphasize like the interest section on a resume when I see a client coming in and they send us their resume and there's no interest section or it's really boring, like it's just like very generic. I always drill down and tell them, like, give me more like, what specifically do you like about what type of reading do you like, the type of books do you like? What type of sport? Like, if it's just like running or reading traveling, it's really boring. But if it's like traveling to Southeast Asia and this and that, you can. The commonalities you're able to draw with the interviewee and the interviewer like it's just it explodes and it actually becomes more legitimate and kind of rounds out the person rather than just being all about just the job and the education.
ParkAve: [00:13:59] Absolutely. I think at the undergraduate level, anyway, you're involved in campus, like there's a plethora of campus activities like there's so much stuff in front of you. You just have to like walk the halls and you'll find three or four interesting things that you can get become a part of. So right? Do those things, you know, being a 3+ GPA and finance and you know, it's just like, Oh, whatever, there's so many of you. That's the ticket to get in the door right now. You have to be interesting and compelling. So the next piece of that is if you're post undergrad, pre MBA, like, say, you're you know, you're an MBA student and you're looking to get a job or internship, that's a little more difficult. But this gives you more. You've got more years and you get involved in something, you know, like, like, you're like, you did a half ironman last year. Well, that's okay. I want to talk about that because that's crazy. That's wild. That's a very tough thing. You have to like, devote part of your life to, you know, how did you balance that with the rest of your life? What did you go through? What struggles like? I want to understand that because if I'm an investment banker consulting firm, it's tough work, right? So I want I understand how you kind of think through that stuff. Did those things and what you learned? What were the humiliating and humbling experiences or also people who do social impact work. So you know, all these, you know, capitalist things we do, you know, if you shut that party brain off and you go work at a soup shelter, soup kitchen or a shelter, or you're helping people in a different way or, you know, you're really giving back and there's a human side of you. I want to explore that, really, because this is a people business. Yeah, both banking and consulting. So I want to understand like how you help people and I'll spend time on that. And I don't let people off easy like, Oh, you know, I did a charity 5K last. Ok, well, great, but like, what else are you doing? Yeah, so it's great people tell me those things I'm like anchored in like, Wow, this is this person really gives back when they care about people. So it's important.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:15:52] That's a great point. So, all right, so you're going through. So we're still kind of on the interview process, I guess. But yeah, I want to just continue and then say, you did a little bit of the banking and was that something where you just felt like you weren't prepped in the interview or you laid out a few offers but decided to go to the?
ParkAve: [00:16:08] Yeah, yeah. I got really close with a few things. Yeah, but I mean, you know, like final round, but I realized that I wasn't completely ready. Yeah, that's not surprising.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:16:19] I mean, it's really tough to compete.
ParkAve: [00:16:21] This is what happens to a lot of folks is that they go to the campus presentation, they do a little networking. They read the Wall Street Journal and they think they're ready and they're not. I mean, I got through the procedure and, you know, it just wasn't ultimately successful. And I realized that, you know, I wasn't, like, really prepped for an investment banking interview. Not that I couldn't interview. Like I had what it takes to get in the door and get through a lot of rounds, which is very tough. You know, when you're at the Super Day and then you're at the local Super Day after that and you know, you're kind of working your way through.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:16:55] Do you feel like
ParkAve: [00:16:55] Sales, you get there?
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:16:57] Do you feel like the sales? I'm sure the sales background really helped you in terms of feeling comfortable and confident in those interviews as well. Is that true? Like you could sell yourself?
ParkAve: [00:17:04] Absolutely. They want to see that you feel comfortable in presenting something because so and as a person who's run tons of deal processes when a junior person comes up to me and says, like, I listen, this is a problem I have with the model. I need to talk to you about it. Here are the three things I think are wrong. Here's what I'm thinking about doing the fix it. I need your help. Okay, great. Let's chat. Let's wrap over some coffee and figure it out. And I'm happy to like, roll my sleeves up and help and someone's like freaking out. Then you get worried. Then you're like, Uh oh, what's wrong? You know? Or you or you get radio silence because they don't have the confidence to say to you, I made a mistake. You know, I can't tell you how many times I check in with a case team at eight in the morning and I go, I got emails at four in the morning. What happened? I was supposed to get this at like 10, and they say, Well, you know, so-and-so was nervous. They didn't want to say anything, and they came to me at midnight and I'm like, what is going on? So basically, nobody on the team slept last night. Well, no, not really. I'm like, this isn't good, you know? You know, so it'll come back to bite. It's the confidence thing is big, but being super prepared for that specific scenario. So in banking, it's like you need to be able to walk confidently how you're going to build this model, how you would set up the analyses, where your sources are going to be from and you're interviewing for that specific technical piece, you have to be able to talk through what you're going to do and then be able to do the math two and the same thing in consulting with a case interview, you need to be able to set up your structure. Here are the parts of the structure. They have to be exclusive. They have to be discreet. They have to be exhaustive. They have to have the detail and quickly move through that confidently and walk. Work your way through it and confident. Be able to like here are my three or four subject areas I think I've got them. Can I confirm that with you? Right? Like, those kind of things are just critically important. So it's that blend of confidence prepared where it comes with preparedness, but also doing the preparedness. And then that third piece is being, you know, differentiated and interesting.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:19:01] So tell me you're so you're in industry for almost five years, more than five years. And so what kind of what started that process of I want to try something new or I'm looking to make a change?
ParkAve: [00:19:15] Yeah, I had done a lot of consulting like roles and I had like, you know, responsibility too. So I was like managing global businesses and people and all that stuff. But then the jobs are they're being promoted into or more of like the classic corporate, you know, corner office kind of jobs. And I and I said, you know what? I still want to try something new. I still want that entrepreneurial experience.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:19:39] So was it a little bit of like you're worried.
ParkAve: [00:19:40] You're like, let's solve some unsolvable problems and work on it for a while and move on to something else?
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:19:47] Were you worried that you were going to get pigeonholed? Were you worried that you were going to get pigeonholed into that? Like if you didn't leave at that point, like you were going to go get to senior to make a jump? Like in terms of,
ParkAve: [00:19:58] Oh, really? No, you know, I had I wasn't even thinking along those lines. I mean,
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:20:01] You were getting promoted, though you were getting promoted, right?
ParkAve: [00:20:06] Pretty consistently, yeah. And so I was on the, you know, on the path I was in that cohort of people that get kicked up every few years. So I was doing well, so I didn't have to leave. I wasn't like stuck in some dead end. I was doing well. I just said, you know what? I want to try something new. I'm still at a point in my life where just, you know, reshaping things is definitely an option. Cool. Yeah. So that's what made me think about, you know, why don't I give consulting a shot? I can take my industry experience and bring it, bring it to a new show.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:20:39] And so tell me how you prep. For that, how did you even get ready and what was that process like?
ParkAve: [00:20:44] Yeah, it was a lengthy process. So it's like this process is really built for people who are coming right out of undergrad and right out of school. So that kind of doing casework and doing a lot of, you know, problem solving work that you just kind of get in a good rhythm. And it's not easy, but it's easier than if you were running a business all day. And you know, it's just different. So I had I knew I was at a severe disadvantage because I thought back to my investment banking interviews and said, You know what? I wasn't ready and like, I almost didn't know what I didn't know at the time. But now I know that there's all the stuff I don't know. So I went crazy with like the consulting prep courses and I purchased like these two prep course platforms and just did tons of practice cases. I mean, tons and tons and tons of them until the point where I, you know, felt very comfortable and then worked on the set interviews because they're different than corporate fit interviews. Similar, but still a little different. So I was like, I am going to make sure I'm ready for consulting interviews, not just generic interviews. So. And, you know, nights and weekends, you know, just any free time I had, I would just go on and on with this stuff.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:21:59] Did you have somebody to practice with? Did you have somebody or you do? What did you have somebody to practice with these case interviews? Or were you doing it mostly on your own?
ParkAve: [00:22:07] I paid for that. I paid for like those a couple of services out there where I had, like I did a lot of mock interviews. And I mean, I shelled out a lot of money, but I said, you know what? This is my career. I'm going to get the money for this. So I know a lot of their virtual like over Skype or over phone or something like that. But I also had friends that worked in consulting through my network that say, Hey, can we do a mock case, you know, and I didn't try to abuse that. I wouldn't call the same person up and do like 10 mock interviews. You know, one here, one there. You know, you got to be careful on how you leverage your own network. But yeah, I decided to go all in on it and say, you know, I'm going to invest in this because this is my career. I'm going to invest in this part of my career. And so I said, I'm not saying everyone has to do that, but that's the choice I made knowing that I was at a bit of a disadvantage to other people going into consulting.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:22:59] So tell me, so did you strike out a few times? Still, even with all of that prep and in that investment? Or did you just, oh yeah.
ParkAve: [00:23:07] Yeah, I got to the final round at see? Two of the MBEs, and then let me see, actually, was it? Yeah, and then one other, you know, top 10 ish consulting firm. Yeah. And this to get to that point to the point of failure, I networked leverage my network to get introductions and then get the introductions and then build confidence that those people to connect me with the recruiter because it's their reputation too. And then, you know, then get to the recruiter and then figure out when the timing was for when they would bring in a lateral hire from the outside, which is different than campus recruiting. So managing that whole thing. If you're if people are saying us better in college or in B school like this is so much easier for them because they just kind of have to wait until such a such consulting is coming to campus and just knowing that's happening and just and work with that process, right? But for me, it was something. But I'd say as a caveat, even if they're coming to your campus, like start reaching out ahead of time, say, Hey, I know you guys are coming to campus. Looking forward to the presentation, I'd love to talk to you. Is there anybody I should talk? You know, they do the stuff that I would do on top of that. But to a lesser degree, it's really being nailed in for the cadence that you're got it. Recruiting session, right? Yeah, I did all that and lots of strikeouts. I mean, anyone listening, if they're going to strike out a lot. I mean, I had a friend who for B went to Harvard Business School, got straight rejected from Columbia and Sloan, like just not even a wait list, not even like hold on a bit. It was just no and no and then got into Harvard, went to Harvard. So, you know, so you may get rejected from places that are below your target firm. You may get into the target firm. So. So that's the other piece of it. Yeah, I struck out a lot and everyone's going to strike out a lot. Some people are just, you know, they're lucky. They're going to tap, dance their way and get off their set all the best places. And it's going to be lovely. But most people and I'm talking about people at Ivy League schools near Ivy, top grades, top performers, once stellar records. It's going to be tough. It's very tough. So the competition is, like I said, the ticket to the door is an elite school with high grades. So right, that's the ticket to get in, not the gold and, you know, not the Golden Medal.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:25:32] Well, you said ticket to get in. It's almost like ticket to the dance, not take it to the actual getting the offer.
ParkAve: [00:25:37] Yeah, absolutely, yeah. To get into the nightclub, you know, the VIP section is the little girl, it's a little different, right? So, so you're it takes a bit.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:25:46] You do finally make it, you make the leap. Tell me a little bit about that transition. Was it difficult? And then tell me why you jumped firms? And those transitions.
ParkAve: [00:25:55] So it was a lot more difficult than I thought. You know, just the, you know, coming in from an industry role to a consulting role. You know, it was a friend of mine who went from consulting to industry, says, you know, he works at this really fast paced tech company and said, you know, we work at like seventy five miles an hour. Most corporates are like 50 60 miles an hour and the consulting is a hundred miles an hour. So I went from like 60 75 miles an hour was like 75 miles an hour and then to go to 100, which was a lot. So, you know, the standards are higher for, you know, presentations, you know, for communications, for analyses and or even if it was the same level that I was used to as being done in less time, you know, so it's like, you know, faster, more concise, detailed, but also faster with zero errors, right? So you it's like.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:26:54] So were you getting your really high or your managers or your bosses like upset with your work quality initially because you had a little bit of a difficulty kind of doing getting that ramp? Was it tough? Right?
ParkAve: [00:27:04] Well, no. There was understood that I was coming in as a, you know, as an industry hire. And it's right, you know, you know, I'm not going to be that fast. But still, you know, there is a point where they're like, you know, you kind of get like a slap on the wrist here and that happened here or there. But you quickly get the, you know, if you're like paying attention, sounds like this is not good and you say, OK, what's good about? And they go, this this this, you just don't do it again. And then, you know, then there's 10 more things you're doing wrong and then 10 more. But like you, you knock them down. And then sooner or later, you're flying a little bit more so. So, yeah, so that was a big for so big for us, big for a while. And that was, you know, it's great because I was used to working in a big corporation. So to me, like this like large machine was like, say, normal, like, oh, you know, yeah, you know, there's all these workflows and there's all these things to get things done and whatever. But that's how that's the glue on these large organizations. So, you know, if you know that you don't like that, then maybe it's not for you. Maybe a smaller firm is for you. What have you? So I had an opportunity to join a different firm. I was doing M&A work, but I was doing a lot of Post-it deal like integration and all this kind of stuff. And I had an opportunity to join a firm that did more diligence, work and commercial strategy. So a lot of it was like the typical four six week strategy work. And then M&A work, which I kind of liked it, but I wanted to be more on the front end like, you know, what are our opportunities like, you know, targeting
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:28:38] More strategy targets, more strategy instead of just post integration?
ParkAve: [00:28:42] Yeah. And then and then like strategy work that would turn into like an M&A strategy that would turn into a diligence and then, you know, getting involved in some of the sell side stuff. And so that was for me is like, Oh, this is really interesting. You also get more reps, too. So, um, you know, when you're at like a bigger firm, you're on like longer engagements. You get a little more into the implementation and you figure out how to like land the plane, which is critically important. So there's all this glamour around, you know, four to six week strategy gags and being of right hand man of the CEO and all this kind of stuff. But the reality is, like most consulting firms, a lot of the work they do, even the elite strategy firms, there's a lot of like implementation of the strategy that they helped create for the firm. So, you know, I think it's a great thing to learn that. So I think anyone who thinks, Oh, I just won't do for a six week strategy, things and just all the stuff, you know, at some point, if you choose to exit, you're going to have to be able to say, talk about when you actually helped implement something. And so I've done both. So I did the implementing part for a while, which is which was great. And then I went to like the front end of it, and that's where I spent most of my time.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:29:53] People is in that world, people who start an implementation. Do you feel like there's it can potentially pigeonhole you, though, if if you start an implementation and going from implementation to strategy is harder, do you think that that would be fair?
ParkAve: [00:30:03] I don't know. It depends. I think if you know, you do it for like 10 years. Yeah, and you just done like implementation, implementation, implementation of it. And then you want to shift to a more like leading edge strategy piece, maybe. But you know, there's this pros and cons to both. Again, people think of like these short strategy gigs as like the ultimate.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:30:29] And that's right. That's why I ask. It's like, you know, a lot of the top firms have more strategy work.
ParkAve: [00:30:35] Yeah, you know, it comes down to firm economics, right? If your firm is built on short strategy gigs and diligence work, that's how the firm does business at firms that do everything. The economics are pay off on like six months, you know, gigs, right? Are you doing strategy then you're helping with? Implementation planning, and you may help oversee some of the implementation with the client running a project management office, all this kind of stuff. If you think about it, it's all about billable and billable hours and what can you? And you're also doing more meaningful impact for the client. So and sometimes in the client's eyes, they go, well, you know, you do a four week strategy, you can come back in a year and hope they implemented it where some of these longer term ones, you know, you're doing the strategy at doing the implementation, doing the ops, et cetera. I think if someone is interested in one versus the other, you know, let's say they're doing ops work and they want to get on the strategy side. Every project is a strategy element and it's up to them. I say to them, if you're interested in kind of exploring that strategy side, you know, network with partners and senior folks in the firm that do that work to see if you can get a bite, maybe you can help out with proposals, maybe even get your fingers, toes, what are there or on the projects you're being staffed on? Is there a strategy component work stream that you can get in on help?
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:31:54] And do you feel like most firms?
ParkAve: [00:31:56] Do you feel like it's like, how do you what your just people want to just jump from one to the other? It's generally more of a stepwise moment or movement, right? You know, like very few people like just jump from one to the other, it's usually like you kind of work your way there and like I said, proposal work white papers. And then on the things that you're on today, is there a strategy element which there almost always is? How do I get involved in that, even if I'm somewhat junior? And then they say, Listen, it's your first year, don't worry about it. Just, you know, get these slides done. But if you keep hammering away, people will give you an opportunity, just be persistent,
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:32:31] And you don't think that could alienate your bosses that are probably only on the implementation side or it's not going to do it respectfully,
ParkAve: [00:32:39] I guess. Like, yeah, if it's respectfully done, I mean, you have to be like, I'm enjoying this work exciting. You know, I'm really interested in this point in my career. I'm interested in exploring some of like the strategy work that may be a different service line where you have to like, make a formal change and every firm's different. Some firms do rotations. Some firms like will let you just freely roam around, others have service lines or you're dedicated to a thing. But when you're early on, you're generally a generalist and you're moving around is a little easier. Yeah. But even when you're more specialized, the specialization is okay because you maybe know a lot about, I don't know, financial services, you know, a lot about banking or pharmaceuticals. And maybe you're doing implementation in banking, but you want to help with the strategy. But you know, the banking piece you've done three years of banking implementation now you want to do financial strategy will play to your strengths, right? If you know the banking operations stuff and you want to do banking strategy, that's a that's an easier conversation than if you've been all over the place doing implementation work and you want to just do strategy in one space that you have zero background and right, like I always tell you, that's step wise, you know, play to your strengths, start building the network. Don't bother people. But like, ask people to go for coffee, you know, stop by their office on the Fridays when you're in the office, like, there's ways to work your way there.
ParkAve: [00:33:59] And I tell people your career is long. I've talked to people that'll say, you know, I've been at this firm for a year and I my life's over, you know, I'm like, Wow, what are you talking about? You know, you just got there. Are you doing well? Yes, my reviews are great. I'm like, what are you worried about? But I've been here a year. You know, for someone who's 23 or 24 years a long time, you know, when you get older, it's like, who cares? You know, like, you'll get there, take your time. So I think that people need to be have a plan, but enjoy what you're doing right now, you know, make sure you're crushing it right and then you just absolutely nailing stuff, being positive, engaged, interested. The opportunities will come. They always come. You just got to let it be known that you're interested. You're happy where you are, but you want to do more. You want to get into some other stuff. People will help. I think that that's the other thing, and that goes back to my whole thing about being personable, you know, being relatable. You know, the stuff that I got from being in sales. You just learn how to be just a regular person persuasive and things will happen if you're patient. Yet persistence at the same time deliver what you're being asked to deliver.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:35:02] Great. So let's go a little bit back to your path. So you're doing a little more strategy work at this new firm. Tell me what makes you go and your next, your next firm? And you kind of jump to a well-known strategy consulting.
ParkAve: [00:35:16] Yeah, so I was doing a lot of diligence work and a lot of M&A work and was exciting and I had actually had the opportunity. It was a big promotion opportunity to another very top, top firm. And I was, you know, they said, Hey, you know, we're very interested in coming over. We're we'd love to offer you a bigger role. And it wasn't about the pay. I mean, the pay was, I think, might have been a pay cut, but it was, you know, the pay was the same, even though it was a promotion. But it was like it was more that I it was more to me. I've always been about impact, so there was an opportunity to have greater impact.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:35:54] Can you talk about the pay? Just real quick. You give us a range of some sort, even if it's not exact. So you were, you were, you know, if you could just give us a range of the pay like the base and the bonus. I think you were manager at this point or engagement manager.
ParkAve: [00:36:09] Yeah, I mean, you know, the manager or the you know, most firms engage a manager. I mean, they make anywhere between a hundred and sixty to one hundred and eighty ish. And then depending on the firm you're at, the bonuses, it could be a bonus. A profit sharing depends. Some of the boutique firms tend to pay higher. Yeah. And then the bigger firms pay less. I don't know. It just depends on the firm or the practice, how the firm's doing. But then when I moved into an associate partner role, the base pay package went up over two hundred. But the bonus pool was smaller. But that bonus pool got bigger, gets bigger as you stay at the firm close to partner. So it's like that first year. It's they're making about the same as I was as an engagement manager, like a more senior engagement manager. But it was that because it was the first step on the
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:37:09] As an associate partner. Got it.
ParkAve: [00:37:12] And then, as you know, every year, your base and your bonus go up. So by the time you're, you know, about to become partner, you're making almost what a first year partner is.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:37:21] So associate partner, how many years would you be in that role, typically like on average before you're actually make partner?
ParkAve: [00:37:28] Most firms, it can be anywhere from three to five. Mm hmm. It's definitely several years, and some will break up that that run with different titles and what have you. But the reality is, once you're in that rung before partner, it's usually it's an on average like a four year stretch. And again, some firms a little bit longer, maybe a little less some other places. But that's kind of typical because the whole game changes, right? So you go from like number crunching all the way up to your engagement manager and then you're managing people and managing process. You're helping lead the thinking, you're helping develop the frameworks and the plans, you're getting into client communication and leading the partner communications, all that stuff. And then when you become an associate partner, it's even more so. So then you're managing multiple engagements. So you have like someone running the team, a case team for you and you're running two, usually two, sometimes three, but usually two, and you're helping out with proposal work. Yeah. And this is when the partners, because this is what a partner does, is partners might have two, three or four active engagements going and then they're selling work. And that's so they need to be like, I got a person, like a person right below me and associate partner who's got like two engagements and I got another associate department has two engagements. So there's my four engagements. This is someone who's, you know, been after at this business for five, 10 years or more. They know what they're doing and they've got a good they know what the team is doing. I can call them up and say, what's going on? Or I just can back off and they'll call me when needed. I can plug in and back off as needed, and I can focus on maintaining client relationships, building client relationships, finding opportunities, getting proposals in so that we can work on them. And then the associate partner will help with the proposal write ups and getting secondary research done or building a proposal team up and ramping them up to get a proposal going. So you're basically you're doing like a lot of the stuff a partner does, but like at a lower level. Yeah, and I'm saying you're running two engagements, not four, you're running. You're helping with one proposal, not five or something like that, right? But they want to see how you can handle that. And usually most firms give you a sales target where you have to sell a certain amount of business. It's not like a hard and fast thing, like I say a sales job, but you have to show that you can sell because before they like open the doors to partnership, they want to see that you can expand the pie, right? So whether you're on a big client that's bringing in millions a year, can you get that extra million? Can do you have you shown that you at least can extend an engagement? So that started off as a strategy project turns into an implementation or kind of strategy process, trying to do another strategy project or they're just on Project X phase bump into a guy in the hall and they find an opportunity and they sell Project Y. They just want to see that you can sell that you're helpful and you're impactful for clients that you're adding value to the client. The client is like, Oh, so-and-so is doing such a great job and they says the partner and like, we really like this guy and feel like, OK, I like this guy, you know, and who's good? And then that's they want to make sure that you can sell that you obviously running projects, you run the thinking, you're adding value to white papers. You have a point of view, it's current and that you can help expand, expand the pie, expand client relationships. I think this is like the big things, you know? Well, this is a natural to like upper levels for people who are saying, Well, what? What do these guys think about all that?
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:41:02] Yeah, it's kind of like your career is coming full circle, right? You're getting back into sales, you're more in a sales role.
ParkAve: [00:41:07] But no, it's like, I'm like the, you know, sometimes I feel like I'm still learning the technical aspects of the job when it comes to like presenting to a CEO, it's like, Oh, whatever, you know, no big deal. That's the easy part where other people are like, nervous about it their first time. And I'm like, Yeah, whatever, as long as he doesn't throw a chair at your head. Okay, so, so, so anyway. Yeah, I think that that you're right, like some part of me is coming full circle where I'm thinking about selling, I'm thinking about building and maintaining client relationships, like understanding clients, like taking really good care of them because. Answer your whole business without your clients, you have nothing you don't have a business. And if they are not happy and overjoyed, that's a problem. Like you have to be just making sure that they are, you know, very well taken care of. They're spending a lot of money with you. You need to like just treat them like gold and people. I think people get forget about that with the long hours and the travel and all this other stuff. They say, No, no, no, this is why we're here. This is why we chose this work. And when they're happy and when they implement something that you thought up and they're successful, it's just feels great to see when they call you up. A year later, I'm like, Hey, you know, why have you come back in? That thing you did was really great, helped us out immensely. And you're like, Wow, you know, help out, people.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:42:19] That's great. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about you had mentioned sorry to jump back to pay, but you sit around associate partner. The base is up around two hundred and you get closer to partner pay, you know, by year four or five or junior, your first year partner. Is that something where you're like, I assume partners around five hundred base or four?
ParkAve: [00:42:37] I mean it. It just depends on the firm. So it depends on the firms. So some firms, there's a few firms that are like public, the public companies. Yep. So you're not building equity. So they tend to pay more because that's how they compensate you. So your base will be high and your bonus will be high. Whereas if you're at a partnership, your pay might seem lower because a chunk of your comp is going to pay into your piece of the partnership. So you have to buy into the partnership so you'll be allocated like points or shares or, you know, units or whatever they want. Every firm call is different, but there be a salary, a bonus, and then the rest goes into your to paying in. And so it just depends on the firm. So I don't really feel comfortable, you know, because it's very
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:43:31] It's a huge range. Yeah, it's a huge range.
ParkAve: [00:43:33] Yeah, yeah, it's a big range. You know, you get to partner at any firm, any of the top 10 firms. Compensation is going to be great. It's just it just depends on how it gets paid out is different, depending on if you're a public, private, privately owned by a private equity firm or private as a partnership or so there's a whole new on fee thing there. And there's this kind of mystique that, Oh, I need to be at a partnership because that's where they get. They make the most money. It's not necessarily the case. So I think, you know, I tell people, find a place where you're happiest, who cares if they're public or private or they're one of the top three or they're just in the top 10? Or, you know, find a place that you feel resonates with you and you're going to be successful. That's what's going to determine if you go to like the most elite place and you're not happy. Well, that's no good. The money isn't going to fix that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:44:26] Yeah. Agreed there. So tell me a little bit about kind of what's next for you? And yeah, let's start there. You have, I assume you're going to stay on, get to partner or your. It sounds like you're close.
ParkAve: [00:44:40] No, no, not at all. Not that close. Way to go.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:44:43] Let's take it away to go a few years.
ParkAve: [00:44:45] Yeah, I mean, there's also looking outside at going into industry with a lot of amazing opportunities. So, you know, you get to a certain point, people start reaching out to you for really cool opportunities. And so who knows, who knows what will happen? So, you know, so this kind of early on in my journey?
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:45:09] Very cool. And then any before we call the pod any specific advice you would have kind of given to your younger self, looking back, you know, having that sales experience first and coming full circle, do you feel like that path was a good one for you? Do you feel like people that are coming right at us at a school out of undergrad right now should follow a similar path? Or would you have changed something?
ParkAve: [00:45:29] I took a very irregular path. Um, I don't I don't like not recommend it because it was a waste or there was a mistake or something like that, but I would say, like if you want to, I think a great time to do consulting is right out of undergrad or right out of an MBA program. I think it's great. I think even if you're a couple of years in industry laterally in, I would say, you know, if you're in an industry role and you're doing a lot of data analytics, you know where you're pulling data, you're crunching it and providing insight. Maybe you're commercial operations, you know, supply chain operations or some kind of role where that you're doing like consulting like work, those transfer in. I think it's tougher if you're like, you know, you know, in your mid-40s or something like that, I think it's tougher just because of the lifestyle, the travel and all that kind of stuff can be tougher if you have like a family and all that stuff to think through. So that's what I say. Like, if you want to do it, try doing it earlier. Now that said, the funny thing is like, there's a huge this is growing market. I did some work in this area and consulting. So like there's actually like a growing market for senior people like 50 and up who know all these like archaic programming languages to get into consulting because there's a lot of firms and this is more on the tech consulting side. But they nobody's teaching these old languages anymore, and you need like decades of knowledge to just figure them out. Like a lot of banks run these like or insurance companies, they run these like old computer platforms still, and they need people who are older who just you just need someone with 20 30 years of experience. It's just the only way it works, and no one else knows it under the age of 40. So you have to hire more senior people. So that caveat aside, so unless it's a specific bike, steep subject matter expertise or they can farm or like, if you know a lot about the regulatory environment, that's just something you need to just do it for decades to get it. But aside from that, I would say, you know, right out of undergrad, you know, I'd say, like, I mean, it's great if you go to undergrad, do that for four years, go to school and do something else at the amaze that sets you up really well. Yeah, a couple of years industry move to consulting. So I know a lot of people that go consulting like two three years and then they go to industry and then, you know, they might go to grad school. Maybe not, but like that, that foundation is really good. And then post business school do B School two years of consulting, you know, leaving it like the engagement manager level. It's like there's a world of opportunities that you can leave at any level, even if you leave it the first level, whatever that is at most firms. Still, a lot of opportunities.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:48:00] What's typical for that, that engagement manager, when you jump out at that level, like what are you going to come out of school?
ParkAve: [00:48:04] If you do like two years of consulting, whatever that associate or whatever level every firm uses, every firm uses the same term, but differently. So it's very confusing. But I like to say that first post MBA role you do two years and you're like, you know what? I'm done. Usually you can get in at like a senior manager level, maybe an associate director, but definitely like a good senior manager, role and corporation. Those are great roles because they're hard, they're hard to get and like, they're just I know a ton of people that do two years of building writing, like a senior manager role. And then it's just like, it's up to you. And if you've been, you've learned that toolkit of how to like, really buckle down and crank out work and be, you know,
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:48:43] Manage a team that
ParkAve: [00:48:45] Fine tuned machine, if you will. Yeah, even just two years of that is incredibly helpful. But let's just say you do four years and you two years of the post MBA role and then you become an engagement manager for even a year or two years, like you come out as associate director, director, level, you know, director, corporate strategy and a business unit. Or, you know, just the director level role is where you come out and the pay is pretty much on par or maybe slightly above that of consulting. Yeah. So you're not like, Oh, I have to take a 60 percent pay cut. So I would say, like you, you come out of that as an engaged manager. You do a year or two years there and then you can come out as a director. It's pretty, pretty typical to come out. You know, at that level, you may not. I mean, firms call it different things. It could be a leader or something like that. But I would say you come out as a director that's like a sole contributor. And then the next role is like a, you know, senior director with a team.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:49:42] But typically corporate strategy is like, you know, I'm like senior director in corporate strategy of some sort.
ParkAve: [00:49:47] Easiest places to go in, like is corporate strategy and corporate development like kind of like an internal like business development function, right? Those places hire strategy folks in droves and consulting folks address now you could be at the corporate level or the business. You know, a lot of the companies will have corporate strategy at the business unit level. So not just the parent level, either, either doesn't matter. A lot of people like, Oh no, no, I want to be at the corporate level. I'm like, No, it's actually better to get into business unit strategy because what happens is people transition into these core strategy roles, co9rp dev roles. The idea is that you're there for two years, three tops and then you move into a business unit and then you get. Possibility and then that is how you grow up, I mean, in corporations, the powers and the P&L. Yeah. And you know, you get you find a good business unit. You go in the Corp strategy team, you're going to meet all the leaders in that business unit and you just spend a couple of years there walking the halls, doing projects, getting stuff done. Just showing that you're just like the person to go to when they need. When the slot opens up, they're going to be like, I want so-and-so because he's been, like, absolutely crushing it for two years for us. And then you'll get that opportunity and like the whole world opens up, you'll be running a P&L. You have people reporting to you. You're just doing a lot and it can be very exciting. So those are the typical paths, I think. So a lot of people are, you know, like, Oh, I need to be a partner at a consulting firm. I said, Well, not necessarily. I mean, yes, that is a path. But there, you know, there aren't that many partners in consulting firms relative to the number of free MBA staff or even MBA educated staff. So you have to think that this probably going to be an exit at some point and it's OK, it's great. And there's a whole world out there and just finding what's right for you as in terms of an exit. So whether it's a couple of years, five years, 10 years or sticking around. And I think everyone has their own journey to go on, I think, and every journey is OK.
Patrick (CEO of WSO)[00:51:45] It's great. I love that. Let's end there. I think that's a great piece of advice. Well, anyway, thanks so much for joining. And yeah, let's stay in touch. Ok? Yeah, absolutely. And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street, Oasis, if you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street, Oasis Dotcom and till next time.
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