Q&A: Strategy consulting Associate Partner offering career advice

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Looking for consulting career advice from a strategy consulting Associate Partner?

Up for a promotion? Charting your path at the firm? Interviewing as a lateral hire / experienced hire at another firm? Considering b-school? Considering b-school, but already offered the post b-school role? Is it time to exit to industry?

I am here to help. Ask me any questions you like to help you make the right moves and help set yourself up powerfully for the next step.

I am an Associate Partner level consultant and have worked at 2 of the top 5 strategy consulting firms. I like to help people think through their career and I like getting involved in people development. I have done everything from campus interviews, to participated in multiple review processes of junior staff as well as mentored many consultants.

You've already made through the doors into consulting. Let's figure out how to keep you on track to land that promotion or lateral into a promotion at another firm.

I have no agenda. I do not work at your firm. You will not lose face. I am not going to tell your staffer / coach / career advisor about "my concerns about X's future at the firm". I really want to help.

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Hey thanks for doing this. Currently, listening to your podcast but I wanted to get your insights on my own journey. A couple questions:

  1. Is the transition from investment mgmt. to Consulting possible post-MBA?
  2. How do top strategy firms look at post-MBA consultants that are 33-35 years old? Would this be a barrier to entry?
  3. Do you see the placement of international (specifically Caribbean) applicants dwindling in the Consulting industry for post-MBA roles, either now or in the next 3-5 years?

Thanks man.

Progress is impossible without change...
 

Happy to help.

  1. It is possible, especially if you have a sector focus, such as healthcare, energy, financial services. You would want to highlight the transferrable parts: research, boiling down the reams of data and information into a hypothesis and point of view, conducting analysis, client management, etc. Make it easy for a recuiter to see that you can do the work.

  2. Age is not a barrier. Laterals come in at a variety of ages. You would need to focus on why consulting? Why now? What will consulting add to your career trajectory? And then the obvious "why our firm", etc. questions.

3. Unfortunately, I do not have an answer on that.

 

Hi, first of all thanks for doing this and wondering how you would deal with my situation.

Been working in M&A consulting out of undergrad all on the Ops / IT side no strategy so far and my latest case is not going well.

I spent 6 months on an integration last year specific planning of the integration not just PMO which I found really fun, was working directly with a partner and an engagement manager as an analyst and got great reviews, then moved onto a PE DD again working with one other person and got great reviews so was quite happy.

My latest project I'm working under a manager who does nothing but micro manage me all day every day, they'll send a deck with an email telling me literally exactly what to do I don't think i've had an independent thought in about 2 months it doesn't help that this is PMO work so the thinking would be fairly limited anyway...

I've tried bringing this up with them but it hasn't really helped and unfortunately my lack of motivation has led to me making simple errors in the work I am doing i.e. forgetting to update one part of a slide in the SMO or carrying through updates from slide A to slide B etc. This bit is completely my fault and need to fix that but just wondering how you would deal with this manager? I don't want my review to be awful and have to say i've learned nothing when our next review process comes around.

Sorry for the long post - Thanks!

 

Sounds to me like you enjoy work that has more "action" - integration planning and PE DD work and you are less interested in PMO execution, which is the opposite of DD work. I am with you, I have been doing M&A deal work for a couple of years and like it a lot more than PMO "have you filled out your template for the week, Mr. CXO?"

One bit of advice, do not let yourself be sabotaged by yourself. It sounds like since the case is boring, you are checking out and mistakes are happening. We all check out sometimes and we all make mistakes.

However, you can only control your own behavior and your own actions. I recommend buckling down and absolutely nailing everything to a T for the next few weeks. Then, bring it up to yout manager and ask for some autonomy, citing your prior work performance on DD work, etc. as well as your recent flawless execution.

Don't be afraid to ask, this is your career. If your concerns and requests are repeatedly brushed aside and you keep getting micromanaged, even in the face of your excellent work product, then it is probably due to the EM's style. New/junior EM's tend to micromanage as they are comfortable being all over the details. At my level, I can't afford to micromanage multiple projects and proposal decks, I would go crazy. If the EM's bahavior is beyond micromanaging and is destructive to the team, innapropriate or unprofessional, escalate up the ladder.

If the EM is trying their best, they might just be struggling with the case and micromanaging is thier way of dealing with it all. Maybe you can ask for more work and take some pressure off the EM.

The good news is that if you get back on track and crush the case, you will roll off eventually and this will be just history.

If you perform better under pressure, ask your staffer / talent person to flag you for DD work. You may be happier with the intense pressure of that environment.

Hope this helps

 

Thanks for the response, i'll definitely focus on buckling down on this for the foreseeable future.

You're right about the style, my manager isn't actually an EM yet but is going for the promotion and has taken over the project after our last one moved firms. It was definitely their style to be very in the detail when they were just running a workstream. Hopefully as they get more comfortable then they'll lay off a bit.

I'll definitely keep this in mind and try and keep my head up i've already flagged my interest in DD work and have been lined up for a few once this project is finished.

Thanks again.

 

Hi, and thanks a lot for doing this!

I have a last round interview with a Partner scheduled next week, for a strategy analyst position at a Big4 in Europe. Do you have any advice in particular, anything good to know but that people generally are not aware of i.e. any unknown insights or element that could make the difference? Also, what do you yourself like to hear / see when you interview candidates?

Again, highly appreciated!

 
Most Helpful

First, congratulations on making it to the final round! A lot of people don't realize how many resumes we look at, people we screen to get to where you are.

I recommend trying to find out who the partners are ahead of time, look at their LinkedIn profiles, any whitepapers they have done (briefly) and see if they are in the news for being on a panel or quoted in an article recently. Don’t spend tons of time on it, but it shows you did your homework when you mention an article they were recently cited in or ask their point of view on something in their industry. For example, say you interview with an Oil & Gas or Energy partner and you ask their POV on the Saudi Aramco IPO, etc.

Overall, partner interviews are a wildcard, be ready for anything:

  • They could have feedback that you crushed all your cases and seem like a nice person, so they might case you really easy and chat you up about life
  • They may not do the case in front of them and ask you to propose a high-level approach for something they are working on just to see your thought process on something relevant to them
  • They may case you really hard, go into all the details, etc.
  • They may be half checked out on their phone during the case, reading emails because a client case just blew up

Personally, I prefer the fit interviews. I figure if they are a top performer at a top school and are casing well, I want to know how you think under pressure, think outside the box, how you approach problem solving from real life examples, not a rigid case exercise.

I like to see that the person is confident, articulate, has a point of view, is an independent thinker… and overall a human being with a personality, not just a "yes" man robot. We need to know that you can do the work (case math), but we really need to know if you can be put in front of a client. Crushing cases are table stakes, but when we make decisions on people, it is the people that did really well on the case (not necessarily the best) and how they interacted with us during the case and fit interviews.

If I am leading the case interview, I go straight down the middle with it. I was once on the other side of the table and I just never want to be total jerk.

Hope that helps!

 

Hi, first of all thanks for the AMA and the podcast which was super insightful.

To provide some context, I am a senior who has interned at Big 4 Strategy (Western Europe) and has a full-time offer there. Right now I am interviewing at other firms (made it to last round at a MBB, interviewing at another and a couple of Tier 2). My big question is if I receive an offer from a tier 2, which would be the biggest drivers behind the decision of taking it or staying at the Big 4?

My biggest concern if I stay is that I will get not too much client exposure and the learning curve will be somewhat slower. Plus, I am really interested in doing an MBA, come back to consulting for 2-3 years and then jump into a corporate role. Biggest pro about staying at Big 4 is that I have found my fit really well.

Things like pay or WLB do not really matter as they are pretty similar across the table

Thanks for your answer in advance and sorry for the long explanation!

 

Congrats on the Big 4 return offer! It is nice to have something solid.

Regarding the Tier 2's, between them, if they are all top tier2 firms, pick the one you feel most excited about - the work they do, the people you met, how you felt in the case interviews. Also, how well known are the firms outside our little corner of the world. Do people know them?

For example, LEK is well known for Life Science work and mid-market Industrial due diligence, but they don't do FS work in the US, so lots of banks have never heard of them. So, if you want to work at a bank someday in FS strategy & ops, the pick a different firm, like Oliver Wyman, who is super strong in FS. The tier 2's do see themselves as superior to Big 4 as they are generally pure-play consulting, not "audit firms in consulting firm clothing". Silly, but that what some of these guys think.

One Big 4 advantage is that everyone, everywhere, in every industry knows and respects the firms. You never have to explain to anyone what Deloitte or PWC does. The downside is that these firms are huge, sprawling organizations and some people like the relative "intimate" feel of a tier 2.

Comparing the Big 4's and Tier 2's is starting to split hairs. However, Deloitte Consulting has a much stronger rep then KPMG, even though they are both "Big 4". PWC and EY are very close in reputation, from my experience competing with all these guys for business.

The reality is MBB, Big 4 and top tier 2's all compete against each other for the same business these days. I know because I have sold millions of $$ of work and I have won and lost against them all. Tier 2's might be a little lighter on implementation work and heavier on analytics work, but in reality everyone is doing implementation and operations work - it is big bucks.

In summary, pre-MBA, you can't really go wrong with a top Big 4 (Deloitte) or a top Tier 2 (Oliver Wyman). Do your 4 years, get a promotion and you will be teed up nicely for a top MBA program. That will set you up for a great summer internship and post-MBA consulting role at a top firm.

Hope this helps!

 

Wow thank you for your answer it is indeed very helpful.

I will definitely keep in mind industry preferences when making the decision. It is true that there won't be that much difference and whatever the outcome I'm in a really good spot.

Thank you again for providing all this insight and I wish you all the best in your future endeavours!

 

Partner path is a possibility being one rung below, however, I see the lifestyle of some o the partners and it makes meless certain - not the money, but the hours, travel, stress, etc. Unlike in banking where hours tend to decline a bit at MD (although always "plugged in" or available), in consulting, the workload and the stress increases at parnter. Some partners seem to manage it with ease, others make me want to run for the exit.

What else is there? Definitely would consider an exit to a senior corporate development/internal M&A team in industry.

 

If you are at a company you like, and there is runway for your career and you like what you are doing, then I recommend you ride the wave. Why mess up a good thing? Strong areer progression at one firm over 6-10 years looks really good.

If you are at a lower tier firm and you have an opportunity to join a much more highly respected firm in your area of interest, then go for it.

For example, if you are at a little known FS boutique and you have the opportunity to join Oliver Wyman, who is fairly prestegious and is very well known for FS consulting, then go for it. However, if you are at PWC and move to EY in the same practice, it may take more explaining down the road if there is no obvious reason (a big promotion, etc.)

Also, don't get hung up on prestige climbing - feeling the need to be at an MBB just because it is an MBB and maybe the exits to industry are better. As I have said above, the work at MBB, top tier 2 and top Big 4 are very similar.

 

Thanks for the answer. I'm currently in one of Monitor Deloitte/Parthenon/Strategy& and I'm very curious about the work done at a MBB. Down the road I see myself running a corporate strategy team at a Unicorn, which would require both tenure and a strong brand name.

Not sure if people usually get promoted quicker by switching or progressing at a single firm.

 

Thanks for doing this AMA.

Background: I went to a target undergrad, where I made final round but no offers at most of the consulting firms. (second round: BCG, LEK, Accenture, Monitor, McK, others). Then I worked a few years at jobs I disliked, out of necessity. I then made the tactical error of attending a semi-target MBA (top 10 most rankings, public school, but not M7). In business school I just couldn't get an interview in MC despite trying really hard. After bschool I went to ibanking and then to PE. The stuff I enjoyed was looking at new technologies, industries, etc. Mostly the work was boring.

But I always wanted to be a MC. I think in my mind there was a lot of excitement in the idea that I'd be getting to always look at new industries and companies. The idea I'd be always placed on new teams, going to new places (I even like small towns) and

  1. how exciting is the novelty of new casework and challenges? Does it wear off? Do you always find yourself getting onto new and exciting cases? (my dream of MC was that we'd be being handed intellectually interesting cases often, in multiple industries, and being paid to solve them. That's sounded too good to be true. The chance to always be learning and trying new things? Awesome.) Was my view of MC too romantic? Should I even be regretful of not getting a real shot at MC in business school?

  2. Is there any way of lateraling over? I've been in PE a long (15 yrs) time and always wanted to try MC. My consulting friends tell me its way too late, I'm seen as too old (42) and that if I was to start, I'd be starting at the bottom with nearly no chance of making partner, so why bother.

Thanks!

 

I appreciate the candor in your question.

It sounds like you are beating yourself up over past choices. However, you have achieved almost the impossible. You are living the dream of most people here: Top 10 MBA, then IB, then PE. If you are in PE at your age, you must be doing something right. Also, I am sure the compensation is pretty good as well. So few people get to do any of the 3 that you have done: top MBA program, work in IB or PE.

I work mainly with PE funds on M&A deals, so I see lots of funds and yes PE work may seem "dull" at times: dilligence, finance, buy, refinance, hold for a few years, sell or some varation on that.

However, many people on here or on Fishbowl would say you are seeing the grass as being greener on this side and you are romanticising about the travel and intellectual problem solving.

  1. Positon and pay. You would take a big pay and position cut. You would probably come in as a Senior Manager, maybe even Engagement Manager (to learn the ropes). These levels are about 3-5 years out of b-school. Starting base salary would be ~$180K for an EM and ~$200-220K for SM, with a 20-25% bonus and possibility of some small amount of profit sharing if at a private boutique firm. I am sure that is a lot less than you are making now.

  2. Travel. I work in PE and M&A diligence so I don't travel much at all. However, in most cases you would be traveling M-Th every week.
    Sunday night would be packing and laundry and 2-3 hours of work prepping the week ahead.
    Monday, your are up at 5am, hop in an Uber to the airport for a 6:30am commuter flight on a tiny Embraer jet to some midwest city. Then, rental car to the client. You will spend the week in a cramped windowless room that smells like fried chicken and has broken office chairs. You will be staying at a Courtyard by Marriott next to a highway. You will eat whatever fast food is around.
    You fly home Thursday afternoon and heavan help you if there is snow/rain/tornadoes/mechanical issues with the plane. This lifestyle is great in your 20's and into your early 30's, but is tough long term, especially if you have a family. Check out the Fishbowl app, it is nothing but consultants complaining about their lives.

  3. Work. You will get to work on a lot of intellectually challenging problems, but will be a mix of strategy, operations and analytics. You will also work with a lot of interesting clients over the course of a year. You will be working with senior people at the client and you will build a nice professional network over time. Always a new client and a new problem. If you like that challenge, consulting is hard to beat.

It is not too late to lateral, and PE diligence or M&A strategy or even EBITDA improvement work could be a great fit for you. However, I think you are in a great place right now. I would only seriously consider a move if you were at a PE firm that was winding down and not raising another fund.

Feel free to DM me. I hope this helps!

 

Thank you for doing this. I’ve been considering a career change and grad school, so I definitely have a few questions. Just a bit of background: I’m middle office at a BB; GPA=~3.5 studying History, minoring in Econ at a semi-target school; I graduated May 2019 “Cum Laude”; heavily considering MBA; projecting low700s on GMAT. Definitely not the most impressive resume on here, but I wanted to lay it out so you could keep your responses realistic. Willing to work hard on whatever I can to get me there.

  1. Is it at all possible to get into consulting from my position without going to B-school? Unsure whether being a recent grad totally DQs me from the heavier consideration toward undergrads.

  2. Considering my background, how feasible is it for me to get into consulting at a Big 4 or similar, even if I go to b-school?

  3. I’m considering NYU, USC, and UCLA for b-school. Would I even be considered for the internships at Big 4 or similar consulting firms considering my background?

 

First off, your resume is very good for a consideration in consulting and for a top b-school (and subsequent shot at post-MBA role in consulting)

Some firms want GPAs above 3.5, and only top 5 or top 10 schools, but many firms will cast a wider net at the undergrad level, i.e., schools that are top 20. Whereas, at the MBA-level, it may only be a handful of top 10's and a couple select schools in the top 10-15.

Your questions: 1. If you are working in a middle office role where you are conducting analysis, preparing reports and decks, etc. or are supporting front office teams, you can make the move to consulting. After a year or two, you can leverage the BB name to transition to consulting because you have been vetted by a BB, so you must be good talent. Stay 2 years and your concerns about being at a "semi-target" will be less important as you build experience. A lot of people lateral to consulting from banking pre-MBA, so not an odd thing to do. Key is to find a firm where your skills are most transferable and have a really good "why leave banking for consulting story".

2. If you are at a <abbr title="bulge bracket"><abbr title="bulge bracket">BB</abbr></abbr> and you are gaining operations and compliance, etc. experience, you have a good shot at making a shift to a top Big 4 consulting group.  You might even have a shot at an <abbr title="McKinsey, Bain and BCG"><abbr title="McKinsey, Bain and BCG">MBB</abbr></abbr> if you are at a top <abbr title="bulge bracket"><abbr title="bulge bracket">BB</abbr></abbr>.  But large bank to large consulting is an easier conversation.  I think you can make the move without going to b-school

3. If you have a 3.5 GPA and get ~700 GMAT, plus either 4 years middle office at a BBor 2 yrs <abbr title="bulge bracket"><abbr title="bulge bracket">BB</abbr></abbr> MO + 2 yrs Big 4 consulting, you should have a good shot at getting into a top 10 <abbr title="Masters in Business Administration"><abbr title="Masters in Business Administration">MBA</abbr></abbr> program, especially if you can write very good essays.  If you go to USC or NYU for b-school, I know the Big 4 recruit there as do some of the <abbr title="McKinsey, Bain and BCG"><abbr title="McKinsey, Bain and BCG">MBB</abbr></abbr>.  I am not sure about UCLA.  So, you have a lot of what you need to get into a top <abbr title="Masters in Business Administration"><abbr title="Masters in Business Administration">MBA</abbr></abbr> program that all the top consulting firms recruit at, so if you get in, you have a very good shot at landing a summer internship.  The b-school summer internship is critical to getting a <abbr title="full time"><abbr title="full time">FT</abbr></abbr> post-MBA role.

Hope this helps!

 

This was incredibly helpful and definitely pulled my confidence up a bit. There were a couple points that I was unsure about:

  1. How do I go about making the transition to consulting at this point in my career(before/without b-school)? Is it purely network-based? If so, what is a good way to build my network in the industry? If not, are there typically info sessions or external events to attend?

  2. Regarding b-school, were you saying that getting into USC or NYU would be a possibility for this coming application cycle, or after either of those 4-year plans you’d mentioned? I was considering applying in October 2020 for admission Fall 2021, but if it’s unrealistic I can build my resume some more.

New question: I might be reading too much into this, but it seems, understandably, that b-schools have a strong desire to take applicants with some managing experience. This made me wonder: Would I be qualified for the post-MBA associate positions, seeing as many of them are treated with a degree of seniority? I’m currently unsure whether I will have the opportunity to manage personnel prior to applying, be it next year or two years after that.

Thank you for all the help you’ve already provided.

 

Thank you for the AMA and podcast, I have enjoyed reading and listening to both. I am currently doing consulting at a Big 4 firm. At the entry level they set up a rotational program for new consultants which gives me the opportunity to rotate into strategy. In your experience what are the biggest mistakes you see interviewees make with cases and in general during these interviews? What resources do you think are the best for prepping for these interviews? Thanks in advance!

 

If I am reading this correctly, you have to interview to rotate into the strategy practice?

Are they case interviews? If so, I would seek the advice of others who have gone before you into the Strategy rotation and practice the quant part of the interview relentlessly. For the fit side, have some references in your practice that they can contact to get a recommendation. Also, have good "why strategy" story and highlight any work you have done that is similar to the work they do.

 

Thanks for your AMA! I have a few questions if you are kind enough to answer: 1. What are some traits of high-performer? Everyone works a lot at a consultancy. What makes them stand out? 2. Let's say someone who are very interested in TMT and would like to work on TMT practice at SF/Silicon Valley, but she has been working on public sector at the Middle East out of biz school as an associate/consultant. How easy is it to do a relocation? What should she do to make the move? 3. Do you see introvert thrive in consulting? What about someone who is not good at selling stuff in general and wants to become partner in the long term? Thanks a lot!

 
  1. Your role advances in responsibility as time goes on. That means for an entry level Analyst, in in year 1 there are expectations (conduct secondary research and distill to a POV, conduct interviews and pull KTA's, etc.). Then in year 2, there are different, more complex expectations, even though you are still an Analyst (build a quantitative survey, build the model, own a set of slides, etc.). The most important thing is to develop as the role develops as a minimum, but to excel, it is best to stay ahead of the expectations at each year 1 Analyst, year 2 Analyst, year 1 Consultant, year 2 Consultant, etc. This is the best way to ensure you are always on track for promotion on time. The people who do not succeed are the ones still mastering year 1 tasks in year 2 and are not yet tackling year 2 tasks. Those are the red flags.

  2. I tell people to tackle one challenge at a time. What you mention is changing practice area (Public Sector -> TMT) and geography (Middle East -> SF USA). Figure out what is the easiest first move whether it is geography or practice area. Ask around in your firm, talk to your talent management, practice leadership. Consulting firms generally have systems and processes to facilitate these things.

  3. I am an ESTJ (extrovert), but that is not the norm. Most consultants in my experience are more introverted. As you grow in your role, you will gain increasing amounts of client facing exposure. If you are at the case team leader and then Engagement Manager level, you will be leading communication with the Partner group on the case, and leading a lot of the client communications. In short, you will slowly get to practice and build experience, so don't worry too much about being able to sell work or network like a pro at a big conference

 

Thank you for doing this.

As a background, I work with one of the t2s (think OW / LEK / Parthenon) in FS in London as a Manager and within FS, my team is regarded as one of the best and the biggest. I have a total of 3.5 years in consulting and was a co-founder of a not-so-successful company before that. I only joined consulting because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do next.

I have done a lot of commercial diligences and a fair bit of corporate strategy work and like the intellectual intensity, rigour and fast-paced atmosphere. However, the work can sometimes feel pointless. Also, I look at my partners and question my life choices. The stress, pressure of generating new deals, hustling, sweating because a PE Associate sent an "almost-stinker", managing a high-churn team (3 years is a generation!) and at the same time making sure we continue to deliver good quality work.

In this context, I got contacted by a head-hunter for a Corp-Dev-mixed-with-strategy role in a large Fintech (~£2bn size) and I’m at the final stage of the interview and think will probably get the offer. Now that the decision time is almost here, I am starting to chicken out.

Money is 20% more, so not the primary factor I am really comfortable with my current team. Everyone is nice and likes me and I am consistently rated within top 5% of the cohort, so its all quite well-set I have been getting double jumps in the past 2 years and this year looks like the same, so will be a Senior Manager in a year's time But, there is potential to be more meaning in the new role as I get deeply involved with the business rather than advising and moving away to the next I will perhaps learn new skills and get operational knowledge In the longer-term, a consultant moving to a corpdev/strategy role may add an additional dimension Considering you are an AP, did you come across similar crossroads at some point? What was your framework?

 
Sounds like you have a great problem:  continue doing well where you are or transition to really good exit opportunity.  

It is very easy to get caught up in the consulting wheel.  I know people that are doing well at the firm, but are not happy, but they think money cannot be beat, that they have put so much work in and if they leave it will have been for nothing, maybe they do want to be partner, all sorts of stuff.  Result is that they don't leave and pass up lots of great opportunities and do not face the reality that most people at firm will not make partner, even really good people.  
Finding good corp dev / strategy roles are hard to nail because there a lot of ex-bankers and ex-consultants trying to get those jobs, so congrats on being in the final consideration

I recommend the following:

Take a piece of paper and title it 5 years from today, repeat for 10 years from today.  Draw a line from top to bottom in the middle of the page. LHS is stay in consulting, RHS is take this exit opportunity.
Play out what you think are the plusses and minuses of both and play out where you think your career will go over the 5 or 10 year period.  I have done this.  Putting things on paper makes it easier to evaluate.

Remember that becoming Partner is not easy, neither is Associate Partner, so it is not guaranteed.  Neither is finding a great exit like one you described, so don't take for granted what you assume will happen in 5 or 10 years, but play it out and see what you are more drawn to in an objective manner.  Also, run the output of the process by friends or family that know you really well.  You might be surprised when a friend says, "dude, all you do is complain about consulting, why would you want to stay in it for the rest of you career?" or you might hear, "work at a Fintech?, you don't like Fintech, you like <abbr title="bulge bracket"><abbr title="bulge bracket">BB</abbr></abbr> banks."  

Hope this helps!

 

Can a sales trader transition to consulting without going for an MBA?

Worked on trading desks at a number of bulge bracket banks (MorganStanley, CreditSuisse, ect..) in both trading and technology roles...for about 10 years. Trading is not what is used to be. I'd like to think i'm generally smart, and can think intelligently in a variety of roles.

How would that play applying / interviewing for a mgmt consulting firm?

 
I will assume you have a degree from a top school undergrad to have landed at a trading desk at a <abbr title="bulge bracket"><abbr title="bulge bracket">BB</abbr></abbr>.  

I would reflect on your experience that would translate to consulting, any research and analysis you did on the companies you were trading, highlight any strategic work you may have done in the technology area of the trading desk.  I would then reach out to recruiters and alumni at your school in consulting, first for low-risk chats about how to best package yourself.  

Given your <abbr title="bulge bracket"><abbr title="bulge bracket">BB</abbr></abbr> experience, I would target firms with big FS practices like OW and I think McKinsey.  But also firms like EY, Deloitte, etc. that have an FS practice.  Make the bridges you need to cross as short as possible.  

The transition will take time building your sales pitch (why consulting), building a network, getting into the interview process (prepping for cases), etc. The nice thing is that you are at a BB and all the FS practices are probably calling on your bank. Spend time learning more about the larger enterprise of your bank, the current challenges, the vision for the bank, etc. This will show consulting firms you have a strong handle on what their client needs and that you will be an asset in building that business.

 

unfortunately, a few of your assumptions missed (bad for me -looks even harder). I'm curious what your thoughts would be with these added details

1) State School econ undergrad - nothing special 2) i started in IT at the bank as a application developer before getting a seat on a trading desk (couldn't get the trading job directly out of college) 3) Worked on govt interest rates trading desk - a commodity not targeted by financial service firms. 4) All my analysis was based on relative movement of govt interest rates, and how they react to news flows. I'm not sure how to relate this experience to other jobs...i'm stuck inside my box of thinking and its hard to see beyond my tunnel. I get why firms hire consultants...because people like me get tunnel vision.

5) As a trader, I did work with our IT group over the years, in an effort to rebuild some of our technology (illiquid security pricing / risk mgmt analytics, also new execution software with a traders perspective built in)...but i suspect most banks have also done this work and are mostly comparable by now.

I'm also not currently employed...got pushed out in a downsizing, and have not been able to get back into a trading position.

Since i don't have consulting experience, my perspective is a little cloudy. I mean, sure, i saw lots of inefficiencies at the banks (i worked at 4 over my career), but mgmt never seemed to care about those (because it was considered relatively cheap to throw short-term contract bodies at the problem).

Reflecting on my experience...the most interesting aspect of my career was the technology work...but i fear the pace of technology growth may have outpaced my skills (i'm not sure about this...just a hunch).

I know this may sound vague....any other advice you can give would be very welcome

 

Thanks a lot for this AMA.

I'm starting soon at an MBB, as an analyst. I'm pretty thrilled about it but I have no idea how long I want to stay in consulting. There are a couple of (fairly specific) areas I would be interested in and I've got a couple of "hypotheses" about what I want to do, if I were to leave the firm, but I don't have a clear plan.

How early should I start thinking about the next step? I don't mean applying for post-consulting roles but things like purely informational coffee chats with alums, etc. A few of my contacts have the firm are currently taking up roles that I could be interested in right now, and I don't know if it's too early to start figuring out what post-consulting options could be a good plan.

On one hand, I have been told by ex-MBB people that it's better to leave on your own will rather than waiting until you burn out or get counselled out. I know what sort of job makes me feel fulfilled and I don't want to take the first corp strat/startup gig I can get, and this could help me be more proactive about my staffing. On the other, I'm open to discovering new things and right now my priority is to do well as an MBB analyst.

 

Congrats on the MBB job! Not easy to get!

First, you either have just finished or about to finish undergrad, you haven't even started working yet. Don't start over-analyzing what you want to do after a job that you haven't even started yet. :)

Get into the job, put in a couple of years, and thendecide if you want to leave after 2 years or push on to the 4th year point when you have been promoted out of Analyst and the 2 year point and are thinking of either an exit or b-school.

There is no right or wrong answer. However, if you decide to leave, give thought to what you want to do and explore the options by talking to firm alumni and school alumni.

 

Yes and no.

Good: You are racking up an insane amount of hotel and rental car points as well as airline miles. After about 6 months, you are getting upgrades, lounge passes, etc. You build a massive war chest that you will deploy for excellent vacations or trips home for the holidays to see the fam for basically free.

If you are traveling to a major city where you have friends, you can stay the weekend rather than travel home. I knew people that wouldn't travel home for a month because they went to a different city every weekend. You also get to see lots of new states, cities and towns that you would normally not otherwise see. It is interesting to see how people live around the US.

One upside of travel is you are with the same people on your case all day and night for weeks or months on end and you get know people really well and develop deep friendships. Another is you can pack for any trip, going anywhere, for any duration, like a BOSS.

Bad: 6am flights on Monday morning. Means getting up at 4:30am. It is never ok. It always sucks. You start getting the Sunday Scaries around 4:30-5pm on Sunday, knowing you have to do laundry and pack and do a little work in the evening as well as go to bed super early. This is double bad if you went to a boozy brunch on Sunday afternoon.

Crappy food. From the airports to the client cafeteria to the hotel restaurant and nearby restaurants. They are always terrible chain places. You will gain weight and feel terrible. Hotels. Usually this part is fine. You always get to stay at Marriott and Hiltons, etc, but often those are not nearby, so you end up at a Courtyard or 4 Points budget type place. This is fine for a couple of weeks, but for 3-6 months, it sucks. But seriously, hotels are usually fine.

Back to the air travel. You are often not flying into a major city for work. If so, it is often a 1 hour car ride to the client. Better yet, it is often a connection to a secondary city and then a drive. So many corporate clients put their offices in suburbs of small cities and their manufacturing facilities even farther away. This also means being on those small commuter jets, which seem like beer cans with wings - cramped, bumpy, spotty wifi, etc. Then there are delays - weather, mechanical, crew changes, whatever. This sucks when you need to get to a client for a meeting or are trying to get home. If one flake of snow hits O'Hare, then the whole northeast goes sideways.

I guess the other downside is social - you never see friends or family during the week, ever. It is also hard to have a girlfriend/boyfriend.

 

Yea I'm married with an infant at home and while I like real estate I equally like the idea of learning about different businesses and such.

I have some contacts at a number of firms (inlaws and friends) that say they will vouch for me if I ever need them to.

Thanks for answering in such detail.

 

Hi!

I've been accepted in Northeastern University's MS Project management, concentration in Project business analysis program in Toronto, Canada. They have a 6 month co-op program with MBB, Big 4 and the likes. I have 0 work exp and 2 internships under ex MBB consultants in their start ups and one in a leading video making social media application as an operations intern and come from a non target engineering school from India, hoping to get into Strategy consulting as an Analyst. Do you think that this program is a good choice for entering the industry or should I look for other courses? I'm applying to Business analytics programs too in the US in target/semi target schools.

Thanks in advance.

 

Congrats on getting into a good MS program. NU is an up and coming school.

The whole world of this is getting your foot in the door at a firm.

Here is some actions you can take to vet the program:

  • Ask for more detail about the consulting Co-Ops. Are they a regular occurrence, like almost a revolving door - one co-op out and another co-op in or is it once every few years and is it just something in their marketing material.
  • Also, what roles are people taking on with Co-Ops? Are they working on consulting teams or in back office support roles?
  • Finally, how often do these co-ops convert to full time roles? I know people that went to NU undergrad and the end goal was often to get hired by the company that you co-opped at. For this, the career services office can get you that info and you can look at LinkedIn for people that graduated from the program and you can get the straight info from alumni

Even if the program does not convert a ton of co-ops to FT consulting roles, if you get 1 or 2 co-ops at a well know firm (MBB, Big4, top tier 2), that will show recruiters that you are serious about the transition and that you have at least some consulting experience under your belt.

 

Hi, thanks for doing this!

I’ve been working at a tier 2 strategy firm for the past 3 years. I’ve been thinking of either going abroad for 3-5 years (via internal transfer) or get an MBA. I’m leaning more towards going abroad.

I would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the following:

  1. Is any one of the two more interesting as a ‘career booster’? (This one’s dependent on my career goals, but as I’m open to any interesting opportunity, I’d be interested in a general answer :))
  2. Is 3-5 years abroad long enough to get meaningful work experience (in strategy consulting)?

Thanks in advance!

 

Either option will be an experience.

Q1. I can't speak to how all firms will measure the outcomes of the options, but working abroad for a few years is not really a career booster. However, getting an MBA would be a career booster.

Working abroad: Let's say you are US-based and you spend a couple of years on a transfer. It will probably be London, Sydney/Melbourne or some other big hub for the firm. You will work on more or less the same stuff you are working on in the US. The fact that you went abroad and did it doesn't really add much. Unless, you are super focused in some area, such as Oil & Gas and go work in Nigeria or the Middle East or you are an up and coming EM and go to an emerging market and help them rapidly scale.

In short, it is "nice" to see you worked abroad, but most firms do work for multinationals or work on market entry projects, so actually being there for a few years does not make you stand out. The best thing to do to stand out is crush your workstreams, and advance your skillset on track / ahead of schedule to your level in the firm

Getting an MBA: You are at a Tier 2, aside from the hangups here on WSO on being at an MBB as the end all, Tier 2 firms are still highly selective to get into and are respected. In short, you probably can get into a great MBA program after about 4 years of working.

An MBA slots you in to the known post-MBA level role at your firm or other firms. Do a couple of years post-MBA in consulting and with the work experience, even at a Tier 2 firm, plus the MBA, you will have a lot more options.

Picture yourself in 10 years from now, interviewing for a Director of whatever role at an F500 or big tech, do you think they are going to care more if you worked in the Munich office for 2 years or that you have an MBA from a top 10 or top 15 school?

It is the MBA. Sometimes, they will only consider people with MBAs.

Q2. See above on my "working abroad" thoughts. 3-5 years of consulting will set you up nice for industry. 6 years is really good - 4 years pre-MBA, then 2 years post-MBA.

 

Thanks for helping provide guidance to the WSO community!

I joined an MBB after undergrad and left after 2 years. I then went to a tech startup as an early employee and have been there for 3 years. While the company has grown, my function has been chronically under-resourced, and I have had no progression. I feel like a 2nd/3rd year BA/A/AC in my job - consistently strong and independent execution - but with a nagging feeling that I'll stay this way longer than I'd like.

I think the company will do well, and I'll have meaningful financial outcomes if that's the case. I love tech and think big tech is my eventual landing pad. But emotionally, I'm tired and lightly considering going back to consulting, either MBB or a TMT-specific boutique, rather than slug it out in startups for another chance at accelerated promotions.

I'm not currently considering school since I think I'd get really antsy, but I'd be open to other perspectives.

There are a number of factors at play that have gotten me to this point but I'd love your broad reaction to this. I sort of need someone to tell me I'm thinking about this the wrong way before I get too far in my own head.

 

First off, you sound like you are in a good spot, all things considered.

  • You probably went to a top undergrad with a high GPA
  • You worked at an MBB for 2 years
  • You are at a tech startup that hired you as an ex-MBB, so I would imagine it is a leading startup
  • It sounds like the company is doing well. If the company does well and awareness grows, that only helps you, even if you are more or less in the same role. It helps if you want to exit.

Your career is a marathon, not a sprint. You will probably work for the next 30 or 40 years. Don't make decisions on "accelerated promotion" opportunities alone.

Going back to consulting: You definitely could if you have been doing work that translates to consulting and you can get back into an area that does a lot of tech work. Since you at an MBB, lateralling back could be possible if the timing is right (they have a gap in headcount) or you go to a top non-MBB.

At this point, you are 3 years out of consulting after putting in 2 years at MBB. In short, you are 5 years out of school. Most people in your MBB starting cohort have left for b-school or left for other pursuits. The only ones left are the promote-through superstars (of which there are very few). In a year, the people your age / cohort will be returning with MBAs and slotting into more senior roles.

Depending on your work experience, you should be able to slot in above where you left. However, as I stated above, getting back into an MBB is really dependent on the timings of openings. If you are interested, reach out to your old firm, and the other firms you interviewed with to have informational conversations. Also, reach out to the recruiters that have contacted you in the past.

You could also skip MBB, top tier-2 firms and find a TMT boutique consulting firm. More access to Partners and clients, more leadership/advancement opportunities, sometimes better pay and less travel. You may really like it, however, niche firms only play in 1 or 2 sandboxes. If you ever want exposure to anything outside of what the firm does, you will not get it there. Also, people will ask you why you went to XYZ Partners, why you didn't just go back to MBB, etc. It is annoying to have to explain life choices that you made because you felt it was best for you to people quickly scanning your resume.

If you are seeking rapid career advancement, why not consider b-school? With a top undergrad degree, 2 years of MBB, plus 3 years at a startup experience, getting into a top MBA program should be attainable. With all of your experience and a top MBA, you would have a ton of opportunities to choose from across consulting, banking, VC/PE, and tech. You would be much more interesting than the 4 years of consulting/banking peers in your b-school class.

 

looking for advice for my nephew...3.0 GPA in undergrad business mgmt from east coast state school....asst athletics coach for 1 year at a small school, now looking for 1st corporate job. No internship experience during undergrad, but his coaching experience was a lot of organizing, selling/recruiting, player development. I think he would do well in a consulting role after getting some experience.

How does he get into a 1st year consulting program? He's now 1 year out of college.

 

To be honest, this might be a tough transition. If you look at the Vault 50 ranking of top consulting firms - think whatever you like about ranking, etc., but just as an example, any firm in the top 20 is going to be fairly selective - recruiting at only ~15 schools for the mid-sized firms and maybe ~20 schools for the bigger firms. The schools will be the national elite programs as well as highly regarded regional programs. Within that, they will want high GPA's, above a 3.5. Then there is the rigorous interview process with case interviews, etc. Most firms fill out their junior ranks with returning summer interns and fall recruiting that occurs during senior year.

If he gets in front of a recruiter, then he will need to have an answer for why he didn't do a summer internship in consulting or why he didn't pursue consulting during senior year for post-graduation employment and why consulting now in his career.

In short, there are no easy firms to get into. It is all relative. KPMG may be "easier" to get in to than BCG, but it is still very hard to get into KPMG.

All of that said, the vast bulk of consulting roles are at the junior, pre-MBA level, so there are a lot of seats out there. There are also lots of consulting firms out there, too. Rather than target the top 10 firms, I recommend looking at a wide array of consulting firms large and small, national and regional. He can research them on this site, Glassdoor, Indeed, LinkedIn, Vault, etc.

My takeaway is that there is no easy way in, but there is a way in if he is willing to cast a wide net, do lots of homework, network like crazy and be relentless.

 

Finally someone who gives a no BS answer. Tired of everyone saying that non mbb firms are an easy backup to have in case banking doesn’t work out. Even the bigger lower ranked (vault top 10-15) firms like Accenture strategy and KPMG Strategy are going to be difficult to get into.

I know from personal experience as even I was rejected by these firms, sometimes without interview at my T-10 MBA program ( I had a strong background but weak gmat). It’s frustrating when it happens to you esp when people say that it’s a piece of cake.

 

Hi ParkAve, thanks for doing this!

I have an unusual background; non-target -> systematic hedge fund (successful but very small) building trading strategies for two year out of college -> networked my way into MBB just a few months ago. The only catch with the MBB offer was that it was to join as a BA/AC/A (whatever role is the directly out of undergrad).

I think my eventual goal is to move to a larger hedge fund with broader mandate. That could be more activist, or distressed, but not quant/Long-short/PE. Something I've always been doing (since I was in college) was writing investment ideas in my free time to send out to funds as a way to network, and I'm about halfway through an activist research piece on a company that could benefit from a recap and an overhaul of their supply chain process.

As I'm working through the piece, I realize the work would be interesting for my firm (the MBB) to try and sell, as they are a large public company, and are not (nor have ever been) a client of ours.

I guess my question is this; is it worth it to try and give this to someone at my firm to sell? Obviously there is a risk that the work isn't as good as I think it is, and I look like an arrogant asshole way out of my league. But have you ever seen a lower level employee do this at any of the firms you've worked at? If a lower level employee brought it to you at this moment how would you react? Is there any career equity in doing so (i.e. faster promote, bonus, any great resume points)-- the whole MBB structure seems very rigid to me (as someone who has spent most of their working career at a 3 man firm with almost complete autonomy), and I'm just not sure there is enough upside to pull the trigger on it.

Thanks!

 

I am not totally sure I follow your question, but if your end goal is to be at a hedge fund and you are already at a hedge fund, I would stay at your hede fund and either ride the wave of growth at your fund and get promotions or after the fund grows, jump ship to a bigger fund. I don't think that going to an MBB necessarily helps your hedge fund progression.

There a tons of consultants and I-bankers that would hack an arm off to be at a hedge fund, so maybe think through why you want to be a consulting and why now before you make a decision.

 

hopefully you're still entertaining this AMA... here we go

i'm from a non-target and finished with 3.0 - 3.5 gpa in CS. i managed to get a role as a junior BI consultant at a boutique place without any business background. for the record, I am very proud of what I managed -- this is not meant to be a bitter plea for help.

in the long run, I know for sure I want to transition into strategy consulting at a consulting firm or in-house at a company. I'm not sure how to pull this off as my GPA is low and the boutique I'm working at isn't very well known so getting into a top MBA program is a bit worrying for me should I need to go back to school.

I'd like to be able to stick around with the place I'm at (they're a boutique but growing fast) for a few years in order to expose myself to the industry we're focused on and to develop some business knowledge. I hope to be able to handle less technology-related work and more advisory work at my place as I get promoted (if I do) but I have no idea how long that will take or if I will ever.

I feel like I've hit a bit of a ceiling because of what I've mentioned above...

Have you ever taken onboard someone coming from a non-traditional career path for strategy consulting? What made them stick out to you? What do you recommend I should keep in mind over the years in order to craft an appropriate plan to make the transition?

 

Congrats to you for getting into consulting.

If consulting is something you want to continue to pursue, put in a couple of years at your firm at a minimum. Then, hopefully they promote you from Analyst (or whatever the entry level title is) to Senior Analyst. This shows that you performed and were recognized with a promotion.

Next, ensure that you are doing work that a mid-sized or large consulting firm would find as either transferrable or directly applicable. For example, say you are at an oil and gas boutique in Houston and you apply to a big firm that has a substantial O&G or energy practice. Or, more generally, you are doing analytics, strategy, primary research, model building, etc. I would recommend getting sharp on analytics packages like Alteryx and Tableau, and knowing Python, SQL and C#. As CS person, this should not be a challenge, but is in big demand at big firms for advanced modeling.

All of the above will show firms that you can do the work, do a good job and possess in-demand skills. This will make you more attractive.

Moving firms laterally pre-MBA is possible and as I said in an earlier post, there are lots of pre-MBA seats across consulting.

Then, think of the firms you want to target. Research the firms that do what you are doing today for work. The MBB firms will be really hard to get into and some of the other top 10 are super selective as well. However, Big 4 firms have seats that open up and there are lots of great firms along the top 20. If you get a promotion at your firm, then lateral into a big, well known firm, then getting into a good b-school will be more realistic, as long as you do well on your GMAT. The low GPA may be an issue for getting into some b-schools, but CS is not an easy degree, so you will probably get some leeway vs a liberal arts degree.

Hope this helps!

 

Thank you, I was very proud of myself for being able to make it, honestly lol. I didn't think it would ever happen. And, hank you very much, I greatly appreciate the AMA and response! Honestly this is one of the best advice I've gotten from WSO so I really appreciate it!

Here's to hoping everything works itself out. And a happy new year to you!

 

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