WSO Podcast | E62: Healthcare Strategy Consulting in the UK from a Hard Science Degree
About
Member @The Pharma Guy shares his path from a hard science biomedical degree all the way to pivoting to a Masters in Management and eventually breaking into a top healthcare strategy consulting firm. Learn how much he makes now and why he chose to work in strategy consulting over investment banking.
Q&A
Check out @The Pharma Guy's Q&A here.
WSO Mentors
Want @The Pharma Guy to Mentor You? Book time to chat with him here.
Or Listen to the Podcast Here:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
Stitcher
Resources:
WSO Podcast (Episode 62) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis. Your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me! As I talked to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, remember the pharma guy shares his path from a hard science biomedical degree all the way to pivoting to a master's in management and eventually breaking into a top health care strategy consulting firm in the UK. Learn how much he makes now and why he chose to work in strategy consulting over investment banking. Enjoy. Pharma guy or the farmer guy? Thanks for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast. Thanks for having me. First off, thank you for being such an incredible member to on the site. You've been around for a long time and have an incredible number of silver bananas, so thanks for that. No problem. So it'd be great before we kind of get started if you could just give the listeners a quick kind of summary bio.
The Pharma Guy: [00:01:09] Yeah, so my background is in biomedical sciences, specifically pharmacology and genetics from what is considered a UK medical target, and then I pivoted to management again from a UK target. So I think IBS, Alessi, Oxbridge and then from there I kind of dabbled around some health care consulting internships, some part time for from the did health care due diligence for private equity firms. And then that kind of launched me into just full time health care consulting. So strategy consulting within the pharmaceutical and biotech sectors? Predominantly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:52] Great. Really interesting. So let's start back in undergrad. So you kind of yeah. Well, even further back, kind of just family situation in life. What made you think this is the school you have? Do you have family in health care?
The Pharma Guy: [00:02:08] So I actually don't have healthcare, so I have a father that's in banking, and I was always fascinated by finance, but it wasn't fully the path that I wanted to go down. And I always had a passion for sciences, so I decided, you know, study something you like. But from the very start of undergrad, I had a pretty good idea that research and the corporate side of pharma is not something that I necessarily wanted to do. So I already had it in my mind to go down the kind of pharma consulting route because I knew that that was a big sector and there were a lot of firms and there was a lot of work to do. You'll be surprised how little business scientists do know and how little science consultants know. So I figured combining the two would have been kind of, you know, that lethal combination that would have allowed me to have success in the sector.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:59] So, yeah, yeah, I know you're only a cup of Ford. What's the punch line? So a couple of years, you're only a couple of years out of your master's. But has that been the case? Has it been helpful at all or you feel like you can get by?
The Pharma Guy: [00:03:09] Yeah, no. So it has been so I mean, just from my undergrad class, I was the only one who that I know of that pivoted to business. And even within my colleague, let's say class, a lot of people have PhDs or they have master's purely in science, and they came straight into consulting. And obviously, you know, within health care, having that scientific knowledge helps. But the fact that they missed some of the basic, you know, business and finance kind of knowledge that you would get from a master's in business master's in management, right? I wouldn't say necessarily puts them at a disadvantage, but less than three things in a kind of a myopic way.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:48] Got it. Ok, so fair. So you're in undergrad, you're studying kind of a very, you know, very science heavy degree. And do you feel at this point you were kind of interested in consulting, you said like from the beginning, but was it something that you always knew you were going to pivot? Or when did that kind of change?
The Pharma Guy: [00:04:07] So I was fascinated, obviously, by the science predominantly, but there was an aspect of the strategy behind pharmaceutical companies or biotech companies that was also very interesting to me because it's kind of like knowing the science at a high level and then being able to implement that with subsequent business decisions or consequences. And that's kind of what drove me towards the consulting side. You know, you don't want to be too deep into the business or you don't want to be too deep into the science and you want to try and find that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:37] But was there someone at school? Was there somebody at school or somebody that kind of influence you or something one of your friends that was like doing consulting? Or was it something like who expose you to it initially? What kind of what made that light bulb go off? Just, you're just your father being in banking was enough.
The Pharma Guy: [00:04:52] Yeah. So it was kind of my father who was supposed to move the business, but it was also professor who I expressed this interest to. And he said, you know, rather than do the typical master's PhD route, finish your degree as fast as you can, pivot to a business degree and just hate consulting. And so I started looking up firms and started getting an idea of what they do. And that that was really attractive because you wouldn't really leave either field 100 percent, right? You'd be there in the middle. So I think it was a mixture of that family and that kind of environment.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:26] Yeah. So did you feel like when you pivoted, what was the most surprising thing like going from the hard science degree to then going to a master's in business? I have a guess, but I want to see what you think.
The Pharma Guy: [00:05:40] For me, it was how much you might do with the incomplete information. And I think you have you have a bias coming from science where you want to get all the facts and you want to have a super detailed understanding of a field or an area before you actually make a decision or in business a lot of the time. If you're if you are 50 percent of the information of a situation, you're lucky and you have to still make a decision based on that. So I think it was kind of, you know, reconciling the fact that you won't always have the full information. But at the same time, I think there was an element of synergy where both are a very fact driven and you do kind of tend to drill down on, you know, the specific knowledge of an area and then you use that information to kind of go forward.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:29] Sure. So you're basically. Was it hard to actually get into this master's program? Was it competitive? I mean, I know it's a great, you know, it's a great school, but. Was it something that there are a lot of other people with science, hard science backgrounds kind of going into business, it's probably a little bit more rare. So can you tell me about that and that application process? Was it something you expected to get in or did you kind of apply to a lot of different places? How did you balance that?
The Pharma Guy: [00:06:57] Yes. So I applied to multiple places, and I think that, you know, I tried to make as much of a case of me being interested in business as he could by showing that I had interests outside of my undergrad and I was reading business books and so forth. But I think out of 120 in my entire class, there were about four people that came from a biomed background. So that's a pretty low, low acceptance rate for scientists within my field. Obviously, you have your art engineering here and there, but I say stem subjects as a whole. We were probably within the 10 15 percent range.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:30] Do you think that's because just there's less of them applying or do you feel like because the actual yield is lower, like the actual offer rate is lower to scientist? I mean,
The Pharma Guy: [00:07:40] I would think it's I think it's a mix. I think in the UK, stem subjects are highly valued, but I think that a lot of stems of STEM people try to at least go down the master's route before pivoting, rather than jumping straight from undergrad to a master's. So I think, yeah, I think it's a combination of low number of applications and potentially just low offers.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:05] Ok, so you were, you know, you put together a strong enough application that you got accepted to a really strong school. You ended up going there for your master's and you're kind of shocked, OK? One of the things science versus business, you have to make decisions. So was it a lot of like case work and stuff there, like in clubs
The Pharma Guy: [00:08:25] Or in groups? Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So there was a lot of collaboration and there was a lot of kind of rapid fire work and, you know, kind of case exercises, even within certain courses. It was kind of the standard coursework where in science I was used to doing maybe three or four month long lab projects. And in business, you'd have one or two cases where you essentially have to come up with something.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:51] So did. Did all the top consulting firms come to the school to recruit or how was that? Was it a one year program, a two year program? What was the kind of timeline so that you would have to get ready for recruiting because consulting case interviews are notoriously difficult? So I'm curious how you prepared in terms of were you doing a lot of mock case interviews with your classmates where you did you have like an internship in between your first and second year? Or was it straight away recruiting and then your work after your first year?
The Pharma Guy: [00:09:23] Yeah, so my course was kind of an oddity within the school. It was one of the few two-year courses that's offered, so it gives people a chance to kind of either have a summer internship between the two years or to try and get some sort of off second internship. That's great. So you do have heavy recruiting from the top banks and the top consulting firms in both years, but the majority of us ended up getting summer internships. I ended up at a strategy boutique that focused on health care between my two years. And then come the success of September. That's when full time recruitment started.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:01] What was that particular about? Was that like your first choice? Did you try applying to like the top consulting firms or what? What do you think? Did you have any crazy interview experiences during that time?
The Pharma Guy: [00:10:14] Yes, I think, you know, I kind of like everyone in that position, you apply to all the firms. Kind of have interested, have not, but I was very interested, I think, after my internship to focus on the health care sector. So I was actively looking specifically for health care consulting firms and the firm that I applied to. Interestingly, I applied to the summer before for an internship and I got I didn't make not even first round interviews, right? And then I ended up getting the first round interview, passing that second run interview and then right before Christmas, an offer. So that was that was pretty. I was pretty particular.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:52] And tell me a little bit about like what the interview process was like. Was it a traditional case interview or was it different because it was so niche focused in health care?
The Pharma Guy: [00:11:02] So, yeah, so the firm they predominantly hire straight into the health care sector, so we have a bunch of different practices and you get hired straight in so you don't start as a generalist, even though it's quite a big firm about a thousand people around the world. The interview process was, I think, potentially unusual and that you have the opposite to what you would have in normal cases. So you would have a Super Day at the beginning as round one, but you would be in groups of six or seven people and you'd circulate around different exercises. So a mixture of case, a mixture of behavioral and extra competency questions.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:39] And then you're in groups, you're in groups of other candidates or you're in groups meeting you. You're getting interviewed by six or seven other people,
The Pharma Guy: [00:11:47] Know you're in groups of different candidates.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:49] So you know you're having to do like a group, like a group interview.
The Pharma Guy: [00:11:53] Exactly, so you have an awkward interview and you would essentially rotate not only so you would be with a fixed group of six or seven people, but then you'd rotate with like five or six different partners at the firm and they'd ask you a different, you know, they'd each pose you a set of questions. So again, cases, competence, brain brainteasers and so forth. Mm hmm. And then if you pass that you really want to run to where it would be three rounds of one on ones where you would have two cases and one set of competence questions.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:24] So let's go back to the Super Day that the group dynamics. How did you navigate that? What did you feel like? What was important to did you were you able to prepare for that at all? I guess some of the work you do in your masters probably helps with that, but it's kind of a different dynamic when so much is on the line, right?
The Pharma Guy: [00:12:41] Yeah, it is, and I think you can prepare for the traditional cases, you know, as one would. But at the same time, you have various exercises that you would expect. So one exercise was everyone was given a card with a word to do with a value so someone will get integrity. Someone would get honesty if someone were to get weakness and strength. And you'd have to kind of try to answer, you know, when was the time you showed honesty, all the time you showed integrity and so forth? I ended up getting the integrity card, which turned out to be the hardest one of the bunch by far. But yeah, it was definitely an experience where it's tough to kind of navigate within a group of people because
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:20] What did you say for the integrity? So you got the integrity card, you had to come up with a story or a time that you showed integrity.
The Pharma Guy: [00:13:27] Yeah, exactly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:29] What did you think of one on the spot or had you were you prepped? Were you ready?
The Pharma Guy: [00:13:33] So I kind of winged it on the spot. So I used to work part time in nightclub promotion, and I was talking about how in that field you very often get clients taken from you and clients stolen around and as a proof of integrity. I would never see other people's clients because I knew that down the line that would come back to bite me in the ass. And those who did ended up getting fired by management pretty often three or four months after they started doing that. So I demonstrated that and evidently that resonated with people.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:04] Ok, fair enough. So you're kind of you pull the tough car, you survive it and then kind of you go through, you make it to the other rounds, which there's more traditional case interviews, right? And then those did anything throw you off. Was there any case you remember that was like, surprisingly difficult?
The Pharma Guy: [00:14:24] No, I don't think it was surprisingly difficult, I think, you know, the case itself, the first case was predominantly, you know, one of those profitability question company wants to open its activity in this sector and they want to be profitable within one year. How would you go about doing so or analyzing that? But I think what threw me off a bit was that the market sizing was very, let's say, abnormal in terms of the sector. So I remember I got a case about the market size for ankle braces in the UK, and that was something that I had never even remotely thought and different variations within that sector that you could think about to kind of calculate the market size. So that was a bit that was a bit awkward.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:06] Ankle bracelets,
The Pharma Guy: [00:15:09] Ankle braces, au
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:10] Braces. Got it. Yes. Ok, got it. Like, yeah, yeah, braces like air casts and stuff like that.
The Pharma Guy: [00:15:18] Correct. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:19] Very cool, very cool. So, OK. Tell me a little bit about what happened. So you did the internship, was it something where it was expected after the internship, you'd receive a full time offer for once your master's degree was completed? Or how does it? What was the retention or the offer rate on the interns that did end up getting the job?
The Pharma Guy: [00:15:43] Yes, so we I was with two other interns, so they took three interns out of, I think, a couple of hundred applicants and the offer rate was essentially 100 percent. However, the firm intern was a boutique, which is not necessarily bad in itself. It's just that within the areas of strategy that they advertised, they were heavily focused on one where 90 plus percent of the revenue was coming from, which was a very interesting area. However, the repetitiveness, you know, down the line, maybe something that some people aren't attracted to, and therefore I looked for a firm that had a more varied offer. After a while, that's fair.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:24] And so did you feel like, well, you did receive an offer from them, though, to come back full time? And so did
The Pharma Guy: [00:16:29] You? Yeah. So I received an offer.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:31] And so did you have to tell them right away like, no? Or did you say, Oh, I need to think about it and then kind of go to the. And start getting
The Pharma Guy: [00:16:39] One of those things where, you know, the place is there. Let's chat after the summer, see how you feel about things. And then I very politely, I thank them for the time. I thank them for the opportunity because it was a very strong learning opportunity. But then I mentioned that there was more that I wanted to achieve at this early stage of my career, and I was looking for other opportunities.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:04] Did they seem upset or did it seem they were nice about it?
The Pharma Guy: [00:17:08] No, I think that they were nice about it, because, I mean, you know, a boutique that focuses on one sector, the churn rate was pretty high where you'd have people leave maybe every couple of years. And they understand that the learning experience in the moment is very strong. But then people want to bring that learning somewhere else. And I kind of realize that straight after the internship.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:29] And so you kind of go into your second year, you don't have a full time offer lock down. It's a little bit nerve wracking. Did you have confidence that you could just get through the I mean, you obviously did a great job to get that first internship. So was it that confidence to kind of turn down that offer just that you felt like you were going to get a land? Something is that it's that kind of how you were, what your mind-set was.
The Pharma Guy: [00:17:56] I mean, yeah, I was never I never walked into any situation thinking I'm 100 percent going to get this offer right, but it was one of those situations where I said, I have this experience, I'm going to leverage it as much as I can and especially within the sector, if I can push it as hard as I can and try to sell myself as well as I can, I can for sure get a first round interview. And then from there it's up to me. So I tried to push as much experience that I could. I tried to learn as much as I could from the internship.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:27] But then how did you do that? So you got back on the campus and like, had you been networking over the summer as well? Like, had you been reaching out and talking to people?
The Pharma Guy: [00:18:36] Yeah, I was pretty kind of isolated to the firm where I was interning, but I was getting an idea of other firms within the sector that were operating in, you know, the similar strategy avenues and what they were doing. Got it. So I had more names and then from there I could just do more applications through the website themselves. I didn't network a little bit in other areas. Yeah, but I think it was mainly just applying straight up through the websites and the online application portal.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:06] What was your hit rate on those like from, let's say you? So it sounds like you may be applied to, I don't know, 30 places. Yeah, not that many, it's not like you applied. It's not like you apply to three hundred places. You were fairly targeted. It was a specific niche. It was in consulting. So like, you knew what you wanted, right? And you had the right resume for it, right? So, so you say
The Pharma Guy: [00:19:26] Out of pure health care strategy firms, I must have applied to about. Seven, eight, and then from there, about two interviews and one converted to a full time position,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:40] Yeah, see, that's what I'm saying. Like, you didn't have that much larger of a universe, right? So no, what would you have? What would you have done if you had gone? Seven? Two, zero or seven one zero reading, seven interviews, what like what would you have done?
The Pharma Guy: [00:19:58] Yeah, so I mean, I also applied to other, you know, other firms at the same time because I figured this is a sector that I want. However, I'm I'm not going to take that risk fully and I'm going to broaden my scope. So I did apply to some general in firms.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:11] And you were getting interviews from there and you were getting some interviews there as well. You were getting interviews at the generalist firms as well
The Pharma Guy: [00:20:17] At a decent rate. Yeah, I got a few of the general firms that got a couple of IB interviews for mainly health care firms. So health care focused firms that say, Yeah, but there again, you know, because my focus was consulting, I didn't necessarily put that much time and effort into developing those financial skills. So some of those fell through at the interview stage with banks and also just the conveying of interest every time I discussed my interest. It came across very strategy side rather than my finance side. So people said, you know, you're a good candidate, but you seem like you would flush a lot more in consulting.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:54] So do you feel like that was it's like you were hedging your bets with some of these investment banking applications, but you weren't fully vested in prepping and doing the prep work because you really did want that strategy consulting role.
The Pharma Guy: [00:21:06] Correct? Yeah, it's just
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:08] Like you weren't you weren't fully into it because you probably could have done the research to know what it would take to do well in investment banking interview, right? And said what you needed to say. Yeah. So I just that that's interesting to me because you were kind of dabbling like so it sounds like your first. Obviously, your first choice was strategy consulting health care. Your second choice was just consulting and your third choice was like Ivy. Yeah, sort of. So like, you kind of had a better story apart for the consulting firms, obviously, than for the I b was kind of like you just got flamed out like this. They sniffed you out in the interview process. Sounds like it probably didn't help that. So like, tell me a little bit about that. Like, was it just something you apply just because you could and you came from a strong school? So you figured I should do this like it was almost like I should just to hedge my bets.
The Pharma Guy: [00:21:58] Exactly. It was kind of that, and then when you do get to the interview stage, it's one of those moments where like, Oh shit, I didn't even get here. And then when you're in the interview, you try to convey yourself as much as you can for that interest of IP and so forth. But it comes across on a more strategic level from a kind of a consultant perspective and people kind of just they figure it out there and then like
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:23] His technical were, you know, were you dropping the ball on like the three statement model? Walk me through DCF, that type of stuff was that.
The Pharma Guy: [00:22:31] No. So some of those things are kind of there because within I mean, based on my background, whenever I approached interviews, they wouldn't drill me as hard as they would someone with a finance background. Because this guy's done biomedical sciences then. Is that management? So obviously it's technical won't be in point.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:48] Ok, so it's just how you were framing. Yeah, it was OK, y i b. And it didn't come like it came across as more. It sounded more like y y consulting strategy.
The Pharma Guy: [00:22:57] Exactly. It would always be muddled up with like strategy. Yeah. Like why strategy consulting? They were like, All right, you're clearly not fully in this. You should push for consulting more.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:08] Yeah. Ok, fair. Well, they were right. So, so. Ok, so why? Why? Why consulting? Was it more just this? This Prof. His influence on you kind of early on going back there to. Did you feel like it just fits you better? Personality wise, I'd like to kind of unpack a little bit just for the listeners who maybe aren't really sure, you know, should I go and bang you? Should I go strategy consulting? What was what do you think made you a better fit for that side?
The Pharma Guy: [00:23:38] Yes, I think it was it was partly my personality and again, you know, for all, for all the listeners out there, my experience, in my opinion, is predominantly based within the health care sector is that when I do still follow a lot of these big deals that happen in health care, but from the investment banking side, it can be a very iterative process within the realm of health care and biotech, where similar strategies are applied time and time again with M&A or with fundraising and so forth. But within the strategy, there is so much detail within pharma biotech that is often overlooked that you tend to deep dive into when you do strategy consulting that the day to day nature of projects on the day to day nature of tasks is, in my opinion, more varied. And it also you get to the level of granularity where you're not necessarily dealing with the C-suite, who has have very high level overview of this whole situation you're dealing with, you know, the head of market access for oncology, you're dealing with the head of commercial planning for rheumatology. So you're going deep within the strategy, but also deep within the science. And someone who comes from a scientific background who can has managed to combine this with business on the day to day. That is a more interesting and varied kind of set of
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:02] Tasks compared to banking, where you say it's more transactional and it's like a repetitive M&A process where you're just you come in and you do a transaction you leave. Is that what you're in comparison? Is that what you're referencing to correct?
The Pharma Guy: [00:25:14] And again, you know, coming from a consulting background, I'm not incredibly familiar with the day to day of investment banking within the deal process, but also based on, you know, research that we get from clients where they've dealt with transaction strategy teams or they've dealt with M&A teams from banks. A lot of the work is kind of more high level where instead we deep dive into the strategy a bit more.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:43] Yeah, that's fair. I don't think I don't think many people would argue with you on that. So tell me, like looking back, you know, you've only been out a couple of years. What would you? Would you change anything? Would you still have gone to the very hard science degree given that the amount of work it it took to get? Because it can be a tough battle, I
The Pharma Guy: [00:26:04] Yeah, I think it was tough, but I think, yes, because it gave me that that Alexei entry level understanding of science that isn't necessary. And we have a lot of people within the realm of strategy consulting that go all the way to the PhD level and then pivot to consulting. And realistically, on a day-to-day basis. You don't use all that knowledge and all that experience. So there you spend a larger portion of your life on the science when you could have pivoted to the business and learned some more tangible skills that you're going to use on your day to day. So I think going back, I would have I would have repeated the same path.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:39] Okay, great. And then what's next for you?
The Pharma Guy: [00:26:43] So I think right now I'm loving strategy consulting within health care, I think I'm going to stick to this. I am fascinated by the side of private equity and so forth. And obviously coming from a non-financial background, but being exposed to some commercial due diligence deals and so on. You know, there is that potential to pivot, but I need to try and market the angle from a more strategic side. Try to help companies or help firms understand that there is a level of complexity within the strategic side of transactions and deals that needs to be addressed from a consultant perspective, rather than a purely financial perspective.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:23] Then there's also operating partners as well in private equity. I would encourage you to look at that path as well because it can be very lucrative and interesting to you. Get to work a little bit deeper with specific companies, but do you mind sharing pay by any chance or a range of pay that you had kind of coming from? Well, I guess just you had your internships, but just coming out of school? Is it like a traditional? Is it a certain range that you're comfortable sharing?
The Pharma Guy: [00:27:51] Yeah, so the starting of my firm was a little bit above market, I'd say, for what one would expect from an entry level consulting role. The range was between, let's say, forty seven and fifty three. Ok, so that's a pretty comfortable range considering London standards and considering that a background with a similar educational background with me at, you know, Tier two or an MVP would get within the 40 to 45 range.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:26] Yeah, that's great. It's a pretty solid first year out of school salary, so it's awesome. Congrats. So awesome, man. Well, first off, you know, we're not first off, but strap up to see and thank you for taking the time and thank you for being such a valuable member to the community. I really do appreciate it.
The Pharma Guy: [00:28:47] Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining me.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:51] And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.
or Want to Sign up with your social account?