Full Tilt Players Hosed by DOJ
We have a robust poker community here on WSO, and I know at least some of you got jammed up on Black Friday - April 15, 2011 - when the Department of Justice seized Poker Stars, Full Tilt Poker, and Ultimate Bet. I personally know a guy who has a 6-figure Full Tilt account which is still in limbo, despite the fact that Full Tilt was sold to PokerStars in January. So what's the hold-up when it comes to getting your money out?
It turns out the DOJ is really big on seizures, but not so much on restitution. Even though the DOJ made over $500 million in profit on the sale of Full Tilt, it has yet to return a cent to players despite promising to do just that after the sale.
According to Steven L. Kessler, an attorney based in New York City who specializes in forfeiture law and is representing high-stakes pro Adam Webb's attempt to recover nearly $59,000 in this case, it's business as usual to make seized funds difficult to recover. “Any forfeiture case is about fund-raising,” he says. “In one of its publications [the 'National Asset Forfeiture Strategic Plan 2008–2012'], the government talks about bringing in $2 billion in forfeitures and returning only $700 million.” Recouping Full Tilt funds will be “a long, drawn-out process to the point that you will need to be out five or six or seven figures for it to be worth pursuing. The system is set up so that you are discouraged from going after your money.
The free market being what it is (and poker players being market makers by nature), a secondary market in these cash balances sprung up almost immediately after the seizures. Initially you could sell your frozen cash balance for as much as 85 cents on the dollar, but as the case dragged on balances sold for as little as one penny on the dollar. Now that the government has sold Full Tilt and at least made the promise to pay at some point, players can now find buyers for their cash balances around 70 cents on the dollar.
I find this absolutely ridiculous. Not only is online poker a victimless crime (unless you count Vegas, Atlantic City, and the Indian tribes who lost revenue), it's not even gambling. It's a game of math and probabilities. That's why there's a rake; there's no advantage to being the house.
Anyway, if you have money tied up with the former Full Tilt at least there's a little light at the end of the tunnel. I played at Pacific Poker for a number of years but eventually closed my account. I guess it was lucky timing.
Is anyone playing online anymore? How do you fund your account? Is there any way around the government leviathan in the online poker rooms anymore?






Comments
It's just disgusting that
It's just disgusting that shit like this is allowed to happen.
Does anyone know of any big name professional players having had their money lost/tied up due to this?
You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.
I still have an account on
I still have an account on PokerStars but havent played in a while...built up a $50 account to ~$500 but stopped playing about 6 months before this happened...also haven't been back on since I dont want to spend more hours not knowing if I can get my $ out.
I haven't even tried getting my cash out...is this just for Full Tilt or have you guys been able to get $ out of PokerStars?
Also, this topic is pretty funny because in my public speaking class at Wharton where we had to choose a topic to argue, I argued that online poker shoudl not be made illegal under the label as a game of luck.
I then proceeded to show countless player graphs downlaoded from sharkscope.com to demonstrate the fact that there were clear patterns in players win and loss patterns with many steadily going up since they were more skilled...just like what you see in the stock market.
Anyone with ANY knowledge of poker knows that it is a game of SKILL in the long run.
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Patrick, If I'm reading it
Patrick,
If I'm reading it correctly, you should be able to cash out of PokerStars no problem. I'd be interested to hear if that's not the case and you have trouble getting your money. They're basically the best capitalized outfit in the online poker world.
I played online extensively
I played online extensively at one point in my life but realized that in order to be a winning player I would have to fully devote to it. I chose finance instead. I have plenty of friends with funds frozen on fulltilt and I feel for them. For a lot of them, this was the way they made their income. When black friday came, the bigger players either a. switched to live or b. moved overseas (Costa Rica, Canada, Europe were the most popular locations).
Pokerstars still works perfectly Patrick. I have ~40 bucks there and I'm hoping to become once again a semi serious player.
This is an example of poor government intervention. I see their point about using online poker as a means of money laundering, but completely shutting down an industry instead of reforming it so that A. Players funds are safe and B. Government makes tax revenues off of it was definitely not the way to go.
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WallStreetOasis.com: I then
I then proceeded to show countless player graphs downlaoded from sharkscope.com
Those graphs are great proof that poker is a skill game. I would spend countless hours looking at the more successful online player graphs and just being in awe of their consistency. If you saw my graph it would look like a rollercoaster where I would win $1k+ and then give it all back every month or so.
This to all my hatin' folks seeing me getting guac right now..
Can they sue for interest
Can they sue for interest expenses + attorney fees? Your friend must be shitting bricks.
"A man generally has two reasons for doing anything. One that sounds good, and the real one." - J.P. Morgan
BTbanker: Can they sue for
Can they sue for interest expenses + attorney fees? Your friend must be shitting bricks.
It's been so long that he's actually pretty zen about it now. If he ever gets any of it back it'll be what we in New Orleans refer to as "lagniappe".
It is interesting how card
It is interesting how card rooms are legal, which is basically a poker room, but online poker is not...Vegas lobbyist >>>online poker lobbyists. I miss online poker, i don't have the patience to play one tablet live, need to play a few since you normally muck 90% of your hands anyways.
You have no control over the
You have no control over the hand you're dealt
And I think it's gonna be a long, long, time
Gotta love government.
Gotta love government. Another example of how money = power and the government is the enforcer of this power. Only people against online gambling are established casino's who throw money at the clowns in Washington and fuck the rest of us.
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Patrick, i would challenge
Patrick, i would challenge your conclusion on this, not through logic, but through an alternative way of viewing it. The vast majority of people do not understand what is going on. They play on whims, gut feeling and lucky hands. And lose heavily because of it. If i was arbitraging betting shops (assuming there is a market for it), would I be gambling? What about the guy that is placing what he thinks are the same bets as me in the same shop? If you were to pick at random, from the sample population, 90% of them would be playing poker as gambling. While I agree it can be a game of skill under some conditions, it is certainly a game of luck given how most people play it.
Absolute archaic laws we
Absolute archaic laws we have. The nanny state will keep getting worse before it minimizes.
Going Concern: You have no
You have no control over the hand you're dealt
Don't start
"A man generally has two reasons for doing anything. One that sounds good, and the real one." - J.P. Morgan
Anyone know some good live
Anyone know some good live games on WS or in FiDi?
I have 4 figures locked up
I have 4 figures locked up still with FTP. Pretty unsettling that the DOJ is taking this long.
Dept of Justice is nothing
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PokerStars repaid players
I've written off my FTP funds
Wait so can you still play on
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DonVon: Wait so can you still
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trazer985: Patrick, i would
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You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.
1) Reasonably sure that one
And I think it's gonna be a long, long, time
Going Concern: 1) Reasonably
re 2) Any decent poker player
Remember folks...if we
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Going Concern: ... 2) Online
TheKing: Remember folks...if
And I think it's gonna be a long, long, time
mkrier: Going
And I think it's gonna be a long, long, time
Going
You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.
1) Liberal states probably
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Also, little side rant, but I
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TNA: Either way I am all for
Nefarious-: Going
And I think it's gonna be a long, long, time
Going
You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.
TNA: 1) Liberal states
And I think it's gonna be a long, long, time
Poker Stars and Full Tilt are
Going Concern: TNA: 1)
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TNA: If we really want to
Nefarious-: My main issue is
And I think it's gonna be a long, long, time
Ain't my entitlements. And
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Going
You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.
I always love hearing people
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TNA: Ain't my entitlements.
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Nefarious-: Going
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I just like the taste better.
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I've never done online
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Edmundo
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mkrier: Going
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