Mod note: "Blast from the Past - Best of Eddie" - This one is originally from 01/11
Do you have an investment banking obsession? Especially those of you still in college, do you spend every waking moment angling for a job in investment banking? Does the networking utility of those with whom you interact play a part in whether or not you'll become friends? Do you have a Chinese mother?
Okay, that last question may seem a little off the wall for those who haven't read the commentary in this weekend's Journal. But David Weidner at Bloomberg took it a step further and analyzed the drive to achieve on Wall Street, a drive top investment bankers possess almost to the exclusion of every other social skill. He gives the examples of Lloyd Blankfein, Jamie Dimon, and Henry Kravis - mostly dour guys focused on only one thing: money.
If you're not on Wall Street yet, you'd better decide if you have the same investment banking obsession. You may not encounter it to the extreme degree at the lower levels (then again, you just might), but you'll definitely see it in upper management.
Like Chinese children, it isn’t enough for Wall Street types to be good at their business; they have to be No. 1. If they’re not or they protest, they’re “garbage,” as Chua once told her daughter. If a banker who falls short isn’t humiliated by his or her bosses, you can bet that competitors are trashing them.Under this kind of pressure, it’s no wonder competition is so intense, and no surprise that many on Wall Street are surprised and belligerent when challenged about their practices and pay. Reward, after all, isn’t just the measuring stick; it is the validation of superiority.
Now, it's important to note that many people on Wall Street have what we here on WSO would consider decent work/life balance. They maintain healthy relationships outside work, and some even have families. But, let's face it, if you're obsessed with being #1, all that stuff has to take a back seat. And there can be only one #1.
I look back to my own start on the Street and how ruthless my obsession with success was. The guys I started with had never experienced anything like me. I cannibalized an entire 30-man training class until it was only myself and one other guy after four months. I half expect the majority of the guys I drove out of the business went on to rewarding careers outside of finance. Maybe they were the lucky ones. Those of you who've read the Playboy article know that I wasn't even above dumpster diving in my lust to succeed (and, to be fair, to destroy those who stood in my way).
Are you that obsessed with investment banking? I'm talking mostly to the guys who aren't in a front office role yet. Where do you draw the line? If you were at an interview and an MD told you he lost his Rolex in the dumpster and if you found it for him you could have an internship, would you take off your coat and dive in? Would you throw a friend under the bus for the sake of a bonus?
Just how ruthless are you? And for the guys who've been on the Street awhile, have you become more or less obsessed with success as time has gone by?
I have a money obsession
The only friend I need is Benjamin Franklin.
Let's be honest - a large part is that these kids (including myself) are type A, and motivated, but just as well, a lot of people in the field are just flat out insecure. I'm not saying the BSDs are, but everyone who has actually worked in banking knows this - it's full of people who are motivated AND incredibly insecure, and thus need a nice fat paycheck to validate their insecurities.
Someone said it best - lowest risk way to get rich. Nothing wrong with it - but I hardly consider it really competitive in the sense that it's the best and brightest competing.
Chinese mothers = insane in that wsj article... its a kid your raising, not a freakin' robot !
"What's the difference?"
I'll say from experience that if you don't look out for yourself then no one will. Is it worth losing a friendship or stabbing a best friend in the heart? Maybe, maybe not. It's all relative to ourselves.
I found the Chinese mother article very thought provoking. As a parent, I see how American kids are spoiled rotten, even relative to French kids, and I can't help thinking the Chinese mother is on to something. Ever notice how you can't get an American kid to shut the fuck up?
Anyway, here's a link to the video you guys may have missed. I missed it the first time through:
I think its all about balance; you dont want a kid to be a über nerd nor a stupid spoiled brat. Spoiled brats will definitely will have a "slap in the face" experience once they grow old and daddy's money dry up and über nerds will have no social skills or life experience... but they'll definitely be able to pull you the sequence of prime numbers from 2 to 1009 by heart tho !!
Your from a country of a Billion people with very drastic economic levels. Not enough good jobs and not enough university seats. Clear example of scarcity. We have less of an issue here. No need for us to be that insane with things.
Honestly, I am happy Chinese parents are like that. Could you imagine a billion losers? That's te last thing we need.
When you have a survival of the fittest society you tendto get really fit people.
This is completely true and I believe that it can be evidenced by the youth sports system in the US.
As a former ncaa football player I have seen and experienced amateur sports at pretty much every level. The changes/differences I see today as my younger family members are playing sports are drastic and saddening to me. When I was playing football in grade school and middle school (I'm 22) the team played to win the game, which meant that starters played until the game was in hand or out of reach. And if someone who didn't start wanted to play more, he busted his ass to be better than the other guy. Today, parents complain that the coaches are too competitive and too focused on winning. That kids should be playing to have fun.
I was taught to play to win because winning was fun, and losing wasn't.
today, everyone gets a trophy just for showing up.
I think this "something for nothing mentality" has crossed over into other aspects of our lives.
The phrase "entitlement spending" says it all too me. I always believed that this country was founded on principles opposite of entitlement and was a place in which people fled to for OPPORTUNITY.
Amen.
Just to follow on this thought, not only didn't parents question a coach back when I was playing football (or baseball, or any other sport for that matter), I had to answer to my dad if ever there was a week that I wasn't a starter. Who did you let kick your ass in practice, boy? We didn't spend all that money on pads to have you ride the pine...
Different world these days.
I lol'd reading this post.
This is how children are raised in the entire non-Western European/American world. There is nothing Chinese about it, the WSJ and other American publications simply focus on them b/c they are kicking the West's ass at just about all activities deemed eminent domain under the Modern World's Manifest Destiny umbrella. Kids are animals and should be treated as such until they show the worth to be treated like people.
Luckily, the cure for overachieving Chinese girls is a properly launched missile cock...while the young boys are easily throttled by a gold digging blonde with silicone water crafts. All we have to do to defeat the Chinese is export our gigolos and escort girls via the USS Washington the next time it goes cruising down the Yellow Sea straight. If only Mary Carey was elected governor of California instead of Ahnuld, we'd already be seeing this theory in action.
^ +1
Seriously, this is not all Americans, but holy shit raise your kids correctly. On line at the movie theater, a mom told her kid to "Please be quiet", and the kid told her to, "Shut the fuck up, you aren't the boss of me".
Then the mom threatened to ground him.
lol
Having been in the industry for a while I've realized that I am not and its for two reasons:
I'm with SAC... The paycheck is nice, but c'mon a "passion" for staring at numbers on a comp screen all day... maybe thats true for some people, but not me.
I was incredibly motivated and excited when I started working in the city...lasted till about 3 o'clock on the first day. Three years in I'm only still here because I cant face the salary cut that would be necessary to do a job that wouldnt make me borderline suicidal.
Planning to get one more decent bonus cheque (maybe have to wait for two depending on the markets) and then make the jump, go backpacking for a year or two, then maybe try and find real work.
Right, back to the spreadsheets.
samoanboy haha, love this honest reply.
I'm motivated by beating the S&P 500. In my case, it's not fear of losing money that is my #1 problem, but fear of underperforming the benchmark.
(Yes, my fellow monkeys, peer pressure and perceived value compared to others is a bitch.)
I am in college and have an obsession with ib. That is only because I hear it is full of BSD's and my entire life I have been looking for people who share similar physical aspects.
^^^^^^I hear you SAC and Samoan. Good luck with the whole backpacking and not suicide thing when you get out of the golden handcuffs.
well in terms of child education I think its just about efficiency and balance. Theres no point forcing your kid to take on 250000 sports and extra curriculars he hates.
Just make sure he gets good grades, and then reward him appropriately. Just find some sort of balance really. And as tough as this will be for you americans, those chinese without a life that didnt get drunk everyday in high school will destroy you economically.
I should point out, finance is boring, not suicide inducing!!
Feel a bit better now as I worked out the mistake in my model - what a satisfying day.
I really think its just a manifestation of an obsession with money. No one in their right mind would be consumed by the idea of long hours and excel spreadsheets; its just the means to an end. People become obsessed with the lifestyle and the paycheck, not the actual job. Its simple the fastest, most direct route to making the most money for most people. You can't 'network' your way in the NFL but if that 5 foot tall 140 pound acne covered 21 year old virgin can get a 3.9 and trick people into thinking he's not socially retarded, he could make good money and finally get all those girls that Lebron gets (or so goes the fairy tale).
I thought Lloyd Blankfein was a lawyer, and then a gold salesman; he did NOT start out as a jr IBker out of college. Just saying
It's simply for the money. Not many jobs can pay you 100k, all in, with just a bachelors.
Über-nerds are perfect for modern slavery, because they are so self-enslaved into their ridiculous passions... :D
No seriously, I know a lot of such "chinese" or any non-western superkiddos that got bored as hell once they saw that life can also be handled easily. The thing is once you got yourself into that working attitude, you simply won't stop. While many might drop out of that field, I think, nobody will drop out of that lifestyle.
Which makes things interesting. But in the end it is all about personal matters and the more ambitious you are, the easier your opponent can spot that he only needs a whip and some honeybread to keep you going. It isnt really what I would want either.
But it's better than breeding over world-revolution and thinking everything in the world is flubbered.
i dont think its particularly an obsession with finance, but as a non-target undergraduate its more of an obsession with the seemingly unattainable. I know deep down that if i ever break into IB, I will find myself staring out the window dreaming of some other venture i.e. PE or World Domination ha!
I'm starting this year, and I'm in this game for money and motivations, and for these two goals only.
But sometimes I wonder, what does it really mean to be a BSD at a top investment bank? Like, what does it really mean to sacrifice every other talent and resource he might have ever got for one goal that is to become no. 1 in whatever the industry he works in? The industry, after all, which is slapped and blamed and almost cursed for playing with fire and burning the entire barn(=US economy). Not that one particularly has to care what the public thinks about one's job, though.
With all that being said and told I still want to be that no. 1, so I signed up for what I signed up for, but deep down I know this is not what I wanted when I was 15 or 17....yeah talk about backpacking or the life full of the unexpectedness.
I think a quote from Ricky Bobby fits this article well, "If you're not first, you're last".
WOW that Chinese mum is a complete bitch. I thought my parents were bad
Interesting review of a book called "The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother" on NPR this afternoon. I think this quote from the book sums up the difference between western parenting and everyone else pretty nicely. "American parents have to tip toe around their children for fear of fragility while Chinese parents assume strength...In every Disney movie they show the hardworking student type character having a breakdown and realizing there is more to life than hard work and books; embracing a new found freedom. This is only to appeal to the western audience that embraces this philosophy. Real freedom is working hard to earn life's greatest rewards."
Not saying I agree but it seemed relevant.
I'm hoping to get into IB for the money primarily to be honest... even though I do find this kind of stuff very interesting. But my son comes first and I want to be able to afford some top notch schools for him to go to/more expensive extracurriculars (i.e. hockey... I couldn't play when I was younger cause my parents didn't have the money. I would've loved to :( )/tutoring/clown school/whatever will help him to be #1 at ANYTHING he wants to be. If he wants to go to Harvard and get an MBA or a JD fine, if he wants to go to clown school fine, but I want to be able to give him the highest chance of being the #1 in whatever he does. My one fear in life that I could actually control was becoming homeless/poor. #$@% that.
n are other parents really that "careful" (tip toeing) to their kids? Maybe it's just my family or the people I grew up around, but my parents were very strict n my dad stopped treating me like a baby once I wasn't one anymore(unless it was to chastise me lol). They had a great balance between making us study/do what we want.
n happypantsmcgee... there IS more to life than hard work and books and if somebody can be HAPPY without them then more power to them. So what if your country's economy isn't #1 anymore? If you can be happy regardless then good for you.
Jack Donaghy said "We are an immigrant nation. The first generation works their fingers to the bone, making things; the next generation goes to college and innovates new ideas; the third generation…snowboards and takes improv classes.” Being second generation - I've been and seen enough to have a commanding presence in a room and outmaneuver pricks all day. Rawr.
from a traders point of view its something totally different. Its about the competition to be the best and that means most $$$. There is a line that get drawn somewhere its just a matter of where and how long you can last. No one wants to be 40 and forced to sling it as a equity sales-trader where their livelihood is dependent on a combination of their liver functions and ability to understand a clients wants/needs. Would compare the revenue producing traders to the athletes. PMs are like the head coach/manager and partners are something comparable to the owners. So it comes down to maximizing what you have in your peak years because once you have a family and you have money ultimately most choose family over a little bit more pay.
im doin it so i can taste the tears of main street and feast on their soul ~~~~~~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
winner
experience/exposure, good recs for Haas, seeing if I can do it, and a a fat check to buy a 06 Cayman
@ as simple..
Played ball in college and am 22 as well, and played since I was 6. Football, oddly enough with the exception of parenting, was always the most normative function of my life. If you want to be good at ball you have to have the desire to be the best at what you do. It made me the same way in school, in choosing a university, and obtaining a job.
I could have settled and gone to work for daddy back home, but I thought it unacceptable to rest on my laurels. I got a job in PE because I'm competitive, I want to gain skills others won't, and I want to make enough money to live securely trading my own money and doing something completely mindless, ie coaching football, teaching.
Money's nice, but if that''s all you're after, you'll be wealthy but you'll never be rich. .
Wow, that woman treats her children like absolute crap. I wonder what kind of hell her husband has been through.
On the contrary, I bet she likes it rough....oh yeah
Relevant but not necessarily connected thoughts:
It's a job. It pays your bills. If you work more, then you give other stuff up. If you love money more than your spouse, chances are they are going to leave you (and try to take half, mostly to spite you). So just go to a hooker instead and call it what it is
EFFECTIVE is the keyword as an employee. Whether someone is ruthless or a pretty cool dude is irrelevant - do they produce? can you stand working with them or do you want to push them into oncoming traffic?
Discipline and focus on school are big issues in Indian and Chinese families (and increasingly latinos), but they're compensating for the fact that their civilizations, up until +/- 100 years ago, have been stagnant for many generations (India especially). They're playing catchup. Also, largely missing from this overgeneralization is that +/- 60% of both populations in their respective native countries CAN'T WRITE OR READ THEIR OWN NAME BECAUSE THESE ARE PRIMITIVE, THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES. The dumbest hillbilly fuck is more educated than the upper end of average over there.......consider that the next time you have to listen to some obnoxious brahmin as they looks down their nose: you're dealing with their royalty/upper crust, and more likely than not, YOU AREN'T but are still pretty competetive....the same could not be said of their civilization. It's no reason to slack off, I'm just putting it in perspective. We're doing pretty well over here.
A backlash in those countries is inevitable. They will eventually have their equivalent of our 60's: growth and stability of a society extends beyond economics. Even though I am drinking the cool aid here in the banking industry (and it's mighty tasty!) it is pretty obvious to me that many people here confuse correlation with causation where economics and every other facet of a civilization are concerned. If you feel the need to be silly and contest this, then consider the last time you lifted weights, got a hobby, or made a new friend without getting paid for said action: you improved yourself. Also, look at the shit hole that the Middle East and parts of Africa are despite all the oil money. There's a whole lot that money doesn't buy.
Children need discipline (my dad was a Marine, so I had a pretty structured upbringing, aka, fuck up and get boot up ass) but also, if a kid is abused, they WILL grow up to be a criminal more often than if they were treated like a human being. carrots and sticks. If they talk back, you slap them across the mouth (or beat their ass with a phone book - it doesn't bruise the skin and can't be proven in court if they pull the child services shit). If they get good grades, then you take them to AC or hunting (or whatever it is you do for fun). These are overstatements to underscore the point
Honestly, I personally find Chinese culture psychotic more than productive, and they are too conformist to actually CREATE any major innovations. They REFINE ideas and technology very well, but for China to develop much further, they will have to loosen the reigns a bit. We just need to do what it is we do best and things will take care of themselves, but don't trust them.
You're such a dumbfuck. No wonder we're fast becoming a 3rd world country.
eh, suck it, faggot
My parents were very high achieving so the expectation of success was always there but they took a rather laissez faire approach to parenting, which is something I am extremely grateful for. It is true that I never learned to play any instruments well and I underperformed my potential academically, but I am making up for it now by having a drive that truly burns from within. I am proud to say that this is something I discovered on my own by exploring my hopes and dreams (as well as despair in the the years when I was directionless), not something that was drilled into me by being called a piece of garbage.
Lol at the article:
Like Chinese guys are not unsecure nerds sometimes.http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-01-12/nese-mom-amy-…
no system is perfect. personally, i got the crap kicked out of me by immegrant parents and have a much easier time adapting, improvising, and overcoming challenges than do many kids I know.......it's always easier to lighten up then become more of a hardass (not that I'm tough, just a workaholic)
As I said there is nothing wrong with failing. Pick yourself up and try it again. You never are going to know how good you really are until you go out and face failure. Henry Kravis
^^^^^ Hahaha, oh man so brutal. Hahaha, classic.
No one in their right mind would be consumed by the idea of long hours and excel spreadsheets
agreed. 2-3 years ago, I worked on a scientific project doing just that as if my life depended on it. made 12$/hour but I did learn a few things:
1-: how the auditory system work. 2-: graduate level science work is not for the money.
but the most important is:
3-: you can have a team of highly intelligent and dedicated people doing long hours in exchange of 150 000$ / year to 400 000$ / year in science and engineering project.
For the present subject, I don't think IB is for me but if I were interested, I'd look into finding some computer science grad and finance grad to build a good computer system for IB work.
A.L.
lol at "you can't break tackles". One of my good friends is Chinese and his parents are pretty nice, but theres definitely stuff behind the scenes. He went to JHU and his younger bro is about to Harvard or where ever he wants. One time he took us to this party with all his family (we were the only white kids there) where all the parents brag about where their children are going to school (they werent impressed at all he was going to JHU). He referred to this as Chinesing lol. Then it was a little awkward when one of them gave a speech on the importance of Chinese heritage. Chinese culture is kind of crazy: trying to raise prodigies and sending kids to school after school, but I kind of wish my parents were a little more strict. They were always happy with my grades and as a high school kid who just wants to play sports and xbox, as long as you dont get in trouble, there's no incentive to work harder.
My long msg was barred by the spam filter somehow, so in short:
That chinese mom is a loser in life - her biggest accomplishment is a stupid article.
Instead of working hard, she wants to sit on her ass and let her kids do all the work now.
Even that she does stupidly. Spending thousands of hours playing the violin is as stupid and unproductive as playing Halo or football.
Still, spoiled kids are idiots that will get screwed. Most Occupy Wall Streeter are bums-to-be.
lulz. That "loser" has an AB and a JD from Harvard, and is a professor of law at Yale. Both of her children were valedictorians and currently attend Harvard.
Playing a classical instrument? Total waste of time. It's not like it has been proven to increase intelligence or anything.
gtfo.
Having all those degrees doesn't make you any less of a failure as a parent and a human being. Her total rejection of any western parenting as well as her completely over-the-top abuse of her kids shows how "intelligence" is a very vague word.
Even if her kids are attending harvard, the fact that they never got a chance to socialize or interact normally with other kids will severely limit their social skills. Unless they are entering a purely academic field (and even then so) they will soon realize what limitations are placed on those with inferior social skills.
Oh and playing an instrument hasn't been "proven" to increase intelligence. Hell, why don't you define intelligence first instead of just throwing it out there.
where's that proof at?
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