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Decline of the American culture
 

West Coast rainmaker's picture
ER
(Neanderthal, 2,127
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 5:57pm
USA.jpg

I've been reading Coming Apart by Charles Murray, which details the systematic decline of morality and industriousness among the bottom rungs of society. It pissed off Paul Krugman, which meant I had to read it myself.

Murray argues that this decline of "American" values is as much a symptom of poverty as the cause. At the same time, he cites how the elites have increasingly developed an increasingly insulated culture.

So, what do you all think? Are we in a state of moral decay, or are we just experiencing a change in social mores like we have so many times before? And are we separating into an increasingly bifurcated society?

Relinquis's picture

Definitely need more "moral"

RE
(Neanderthal, 2,186
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 9:25am

Definitely need more "moral" values to combat poverty... Taliban style... it worked well in Afghanistan, I'm sure it can work well in the US of A!

Seriously though...

Poor working class / less educated men have a harder time supporting a family, therefore fewer families... more bastard children, etc... demonising them through some "moral decay" rhetoric and blaming them for their poverty isn't useful to understand the trend, nor is it useful to better their socio-economic condition... I don't see how one could argue the causation flows the other way around...

I do see how having a strong family and social network can protect one against shocks in their career, etc... though, I'm not sure that's the point Murray is trying to make and it is of less value when the lack of opportunities for the lower classes is systemic.

relinquis... Killing the GMAT this December; Over/Under set at: 725 GMATs.

UFOinsider's picture

Charles Murray is a fraud.

O
(Human, 10,456
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 10:22am

Charles Murray is a fraud.

I'm just here for the free food

In reply to UFOinsider
duffmt6's picture

UFOinsider wrote: Charles

IB
(Neanderthal, 2,467
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 10:23am
UFOinsider:

Charles Murray is a fraud.

This. Dumb book. Dumber thesis.

"Social cohesion and puritanical morality place roughly on my list of concerns between whether I'll pick up jock itch at the gym this week (not likely, since I don't go the gym) and whether it'll rain in Christchurch, New Zealand next Tuesday."
-Eddie

IlliniProgrammer's picture

My view is that at least 40%

ST
(Almost Human, 9,258
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 10:25am

My view is that at least 40% of the country is capable of doing calculus. If you can do calculus, you can be a competent STEM person, and competent STEM guys create and maintain middle-class jobs.

So I think a lot of the social stratification we are seeing today is unnatural.

Work hard, play hard.

blackrainn's picture

Society is no better or worse

O
(Orangutan, 354
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 10:59am

Society is no better or worse off than it has been for millenia, this is nothing new.

PetEng's picture

Quote: My view is that at

O
(Gorilla, 747
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 12:26pm

My view is that at least 40% of the country is capable of doing calculus. If you can do calculus, you can be a competent STEM person, and competent STEM guys create and maintain middle-class jobs.

Disagree.

"Doing" calculus is not the same as innovating. I doubt more than 15% of the US population has the ability to innovate at even a medium level.

Creating patents is dominated by high IQ scientists/engineers more now than any time in our history. Real technology innovation is dominated by 98th percentile or above. Steve Hsu's blog Information Processing goes over the data.

PetEng's picture

The level of bastardization

O
(Gorilla, 747
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 12:27pm

The level of bastardization in this country is downright disturbing and foreshadows some terrible demographic realities down the road.

In reply to PetEng
IlliniProgrammer's picture

PetEng wrote: Quote: My view

ST
(Almost Human, 9,258
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 1:30pm
PetEng:

My view is that at least 40% of the country is capable of doing calculus. If you can do calculus, you can be a competent STEM person, and competent STEM guys create and maintain middle-class jobs.

Disagree.

"Doing" calculus is not the same as innovating. I doubt more than 15% of the US population has the ability to innovate at even a medium level.

Creating patents is dominated by high IQ scientists/engineers more now than any time in our history. Real technology innovation is dominated by 98th percentile or above. Steve Hsu's blog Information Processing goes over the data.

Innovating is only about 10% of the value. The other 90% is perspiration. That is something anyone with work ethic and basic math skills can do.

Work hard, play hard.

In reply to IlliniProgrammer
Whgm45's picture

IlliniProgrammer

ST
(Orangutan, 308
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 1:37pm
IlliniProgrammer:
PetEng:

My view is that at least 40% of the country is capable of doing calculus. If you can do calculus, you can be a competent STEM person, and competent STEM guys create and maintain middle-class jobs.

Disagree.

"Doing" calculus is not the same as innovating. I doubt more than 15% of the US population has the ability to innovate at even a medium level.

Creating patents is dominated by high IQ scientists/engineers more now than any time in our history. Real technology innovation is dominated by 98th percentile or above. Steve Hsu's blog Information Processing goes over the data.

Innovating is only about 10% of the value. The other 90% is perspiration. That is something anyone with work ethic and basic math skills can do.

This. How many of us actually innovate at our jobs, creating new processes, technology, or ways of thinking? Not everyone can be a visionary

In reply to Whgm45
UFOinsider's picture

Whgm45

O
(Human, 10,456
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 1:42pm
Whgm45:
IlliniProgrammer:
PetEng:

My view is that at least 40% of the country is capable of doing calculus. If you can do calculus, you can be a competent STEM person, and competent STEM guys create and maintain middle-class jobs.

Disagree.

"Doing" calculus is not the same as innovating. I doubt more than 15% of the US population has the ability to innovate at even a medium level.

Creating patents is dominated by high IQ scientists/engineers more now than any time in our history. Real technology innovation is dominated by 98th percentile or above. Steve Hsu's blog Information Processing goes over the data.

Innovating is only about 10% of the value. The other 90% is perspiration. That is something anyone with work ethic and basic math skills can do.

This. How many of us actually innovate at our jobs, creating new processes, technology, or ways of thinking? Not everyone can be a visionary

Sort of. People on this site take very extreme views and then split hairs and atoms to justify them, but the reality is that the average person is capable of some level of innovation and hard work, and does so. Will everyone do IBD or create the next facebook, obviously not. But that doesn't translate into the majority of people being worthless either.

I'm just here for the free food

In reply to PetEng
West Coast rainmaker's picture

UFOinsider wrote: Charles

ER
(Neanderthal, 2,127
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 5:32pm
UFOinsider:

Charles Murray is a fraud.

Not going to argue it- most info-tainment books are sensationalistic. But they at least get the public interested in a problem.

PetEng:

The level of bastardization in this country is downright disturbing and foreshadows some terrible demographic realities down the road.

I think this was the point Murray was trying to make, among others. I am not promoting American Exceptionalism nor the validity of only one family structure, but single parent homes are usually less stable. It seems very reasonable that the prevalence of violent crime in certain regional social groups can be traced back to inadequate parental involvement.

I think its more interesting to consider Murray's argument that we have a less industrious and more entitled society. He highlighted how labor force participation lagged within less affluent areas even in boom times, and how we have more "disabled" workers now. What moved us from a society where handouts were taken only as a last resort to the current "wring every cent you can out of the government" culture we have now?

TNA's picture

Most people have only basic

O
(Human, 13,698
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 5:38pm

Most people have only basic intelligence. That wasn't an issue 40-50 years ago because the rest of the world was dirt poor and we have simple manufacturing jobs here. Now the rest of the world has caught up and we don't need dumb people to make stuff.

Unfortunately these people still have a vote. They elect people who give them what they want, instead of the cold truth that they need to fight harder. Much like how fat people keep dreaming of a pill or some magic spell, instead of the painful and miserable dieting and exercise that has work forever now.

America now needs informational workers and educated laborers.

Socialism will rise or totalitarianism. Both will be to placate the poor and un-needed.

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swagon's picture

We need Rick Santorum. He's

EN
(Neanderthal, 2,976
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 6:01pm

We need Rick Santorum. He's the only guy proposing specific solutions that will save America from certain doom.

TNA's picture

Rick wants to ban birth

O
(Human, 13,698
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 6:07pm

Rick wants to ban birth control. That will only magnify the problem. Women with college degrees and higher income have less than the replacement rate child birth.

The people who this economy cannot use and this country cannot support and the people you want on birth control.

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blackrainn's picture

One thing I will say is

O
(Orangutan, 354
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 6:19pm

One thing I will say is almost everyone living on this site is in a vacuum. Many are working hard at / graduated from a top 10/15 school (or are busting their butts at "non-targets"), scored 99th percentile+ on their standardized tests, have gotten a degree in something semi-useful (economics, CS, etc.), have some semblance of a family, etc.. The average American makes $38,000ish a year, doesn't have a college degree, scored a 22ish on the ACT, and studies "general studies" or "business" (at a non-target). And that's the average, the bottom 25th percentile isn't looking very good. Just something to remember.

The new economy is an economy where you need to be in the top 15/20% (and ideally the top 10%) of intellect to really compete (and I'm talking intellect on a broad level, whether that be leadership, technical skills, personal skills, etc.) We can take the top 23% of the Chinese population (or the top 10% of China's and India's population) and make them all citizens of the United States.... something to think about.

I think it's time to really start thinking about yourself as a global citizen. I will certainly be teaching my children Chinese / Portuguese.

In reply to ANT
swagon's picture

ANT wrote: Rick wants to ban

EN
(Neanderthal, 2,976
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 6:36pm
In reply to blackrainn
swagon's picture

blackrainn wrote: I will

EN
(Neanderthal, 2,976
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 6:39pm
TheKing's picture

swagon is on fire!

O
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 6:55pm

Check out my WSO Blog

PetEng's picture

Quote: Innovating is only

O
(Gorilla, 747
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 7:34pm
IlliniProgrammer's picture

Quote: You act like getting a

ST
(Almost Human, 9,258
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 9:44pm

Work hard, play hard.

PetEng's picture

I assume EE/CS and I'm

O
(Gorilla, 747
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 10:41pm
Relinquis's picture

Before this gets into a

RE
(Neanderthal, 2,186
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 11:08pm

relinquis... Killing the GMAT this December; Over/Under set at: 725 GMATs.

In reply to UFOinsider
whitecollarandsuspenders's picture

UFOinsider wrote: Whgm45

IB
(Baboon, 145
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 11:45pm

"The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money"

- Margaret Thatcher

In reply to swagon
kmess024's picture

swagon wrote: We need Rick

EN
(Orangutan, 312
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 11:53pm

The Four E's of investment
"The greatest Enemies of the Equity investor are Expenses and Emotions."- Warren Buffet

MonkeyWrench's picture

There was a really

O
 
Points)
 on 2/21/12 at 11:55pm

"Who am I? I'm the guy that does his job. You must be the other guy."

In reply to Relinquis
PetEng's picture

Relinquis wrote: Before this

O
(Gorilla, 747
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 12:43am
Relinquis's picture

PetEng, point 3 goes back to

RE
(Neanderthal, 2,186
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 1:21am

relinquis... Killing the GMAT this December; Over/Under set at: 725 GMATs.

PetEng's picture

I thought about writing a

O
(Gorilla, 747
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 2:05am
melvvvar's picture

we went from barbarism to

(King Kong, 1,693
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 6:40am
IlliniProgrammer's picture

Ok. Now that PetEng has

ST
(Almost Human, 9,258
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 7:55am

Work hard, play hard.

In reply to Relinquis
happypantsmcgee's picture

Relinquis wrote: Before this

O
(Almost Human, 9,627
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 9:04am

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

Relinquis's picture

PetEng, This is a real

RE
(Neanderthal, 2,186
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 9:39am

relinquis... Killing the GMAT this December; Over/Under set at: 725 GMATs.

In reply to happypantsmcgee
Relinquis's picture

happypantsmcgee

RE
(Neanderthal, 2,186
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 9:43am

relinquis... Killing the GMAT this December; Over/Under set at: 725 GMATs.

levelworm's picture

It's nothing new. Capitalism

O
(Orangutan, 285
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 9:53am
In reply to ANT
UFOinsider's picture

ANT wrote: Unfortunately

O
(Human, 10,456
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 10:26am

I'm just here for the free food

In reply to UFOinsider
TNA's picture

UFOinsider wrote: ANT

O
(Human, 13,698
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 10:34am

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PetEng's picture

Quote: Ok. Now that PetEng

O
(Gorilla, 747
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 10:35am
In reply to ANT
duffmt6's picture

ANT wrote: UFOinsider

IB
(Neanderthal, 2,467
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 10:37am

"Social cohesion and puritanical morality place roughly on my list of concerns between whether I'll pick up jock itch at the gym this week (not likely, since I don't go the gym) and whether it'll rain in Christchurch, New Zealand next Tuesday."
-Eddie

PetEng's picture

Quote: This is a real

O
(Gorilla, 747
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 10:49am
In reply to ANT
UFOinsider's picture

ANT wrote: Tell me how that

O
(Human, 10,456
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 10:40am

I'm just here for the free food

In reply to duffmt6
TNA's picture

duffmt6 wrote: ANT

O
(Human, 13,698
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 10:41am

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In reply to UFOinsider
TNA's picture

UFOinsider wrote: ANT

O
(Human, 13,698
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 10:42am

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In reply to ANT
duffmt6's picture

ANT wrote: UFOinsider

IB
(Neanderthal, 2,467
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 10:51am

"Social cohesion and puritanical morality place roughly on my list of concerns between whether I'll pick up jock itch at the gym this week (not likely, since I don't go the gym) and whether it'll rain in Christchurch, New Zealand next Tuesday."
-Eddie

In reply to duffmt6
TNA's picture

duffmt6 wrote: ANT

O
(Human, 13,698
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 10:53am

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In reply to ANT
duffmt6's picture

ANT wrote: duffmt6

IB
(Neanderthal, 2,467
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 11:01am

"Social cohesion and puritanical morality place roughly on my list of concerns between whether I'll pick up jock itch at the gym this week (not likely, since I don't go the gym) and whether it'll rain in Christchurch, New Zealand next Tuesday."
-Eddie

In reply to ANT
levelworm's picture

ANT wrote: duffmt6

O
(Orangutan, 285
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 11:01am
In reply to duffmt6
UFOinsider's picture

duffmt6 wrote: ANT

O
(Human, 10,456
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 11:06am

I'm just here for the free food

TNA's picture

And the Liberals way of doing

O
(Human, 13,698
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 11:13am

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TNA's picture

If you cannot take advantage

O
(Human, 13,698
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 11:14am

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In reply to ANT
UFOinsider's picture

ANT wrote: And the Liberals

O
(Human, 10,456
 
Points)
 on 2/22/12 at 11:16am

I'm just here for the free food

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