Repayment of sign on bonus?

I have a dilemma I'm hoping to get some advice about

I started my job July 2nd of last year. There's a clause in my offer that states if I voluntarily quit my job within a year of my start date I need to return the full amount of the signing bonus. I have accepted a job offer elsewhere now and am trying to figure out how to quit without being on the hook for signing bonus.

I want to give 2 week notice because I know that's the standard. But if I give it on say today that I'm quitting on july 2nd, I am afraid my manager would say that my submission of quitting was today and therefore I voluntarily terminated my position today and I need to repay the bonus.

Is that a legit concern? Should I give 2 week notice or wait till July 2nd and give 3 day notice, basically working till the end of that week?

This is in investment management, not IB, but Im hoping to hear some opinion since I need to act soon.

 

How much is the sign on bonus? Just out of curiosity.

When a plumber from Hoboken tells you he has a good feeling about a reverse iron condor spread on the Japanese Yen, you really have no choice. If you don’t do it to him, somebody else surely will. -Eddie B.
 

It depends on how technical you want to get. You are technically working for the 1 year, does your boss think you are an ass? That's the real question.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne
 
heister:

It depends on how technical you want to get. You are technically working for the 1 year, does your boss think you are an ass? That's the real question.

I don't quite follow what you mean. If I give 2 week notice now, I will technically be working for the full year since 2 weeks from now is July 2nd 2013. But If my manager tells me I have to leave on the spot (not allowing me to have the 2 week transition) does that constitute a firing or a resignation?

I think that's my main concern. If that is still a resignation then I will need to wait till July 3rd for sure.

 

Absolutely do not give notice until you are past the date of your full year. I've seen friends who've had to fight to hold on to their money in similar situations, and trust me, it is not worth the trouble.

Have you considered telling your future employer about the situation and asking them if it would be alright for you to start slightly later?

 
thewaterpiper:

Absolutely do not give notice until you are past the date of your full year. I've seen friends who've had to fight to hold on to their money in similar situations, and trust me, it is not worth the trouble.

Have you considered telling your future employer about the situation and asking them if it would be alright for you to start slightly later?

I can work remotely for 2 more weeks after July 5th but I can't show up to office except for maybe a few days in that period.

I don't feel good about not giving the 2 weeks, but I think i must protect myself.

anyone have ever quit while giving short notice? I can imagine that conversation will be very awkward

 

It's interesting that your repayment clause is all or nothing. Mine says that the longer I work the less I have to repay until it goes down to zero after a full year. I.E. if I left after 11 months I would only have to repay 1-2k or so.

 

Just play it safe. If there's any reason for them to take the money from you, they will. After July 2nd, just say that you are resigning instead of giving them a specifc time period. Let them ask you about two weeks notice if they want that from you, and cross your fingers that they'll just let you go the day of so you can start your new job.

  • someone who had to pay this back earlier this year
 

You should wait. If you're not Operations, and you have access to anything investment related, you will most likely be walked and won't even get to give two weeks. If you don't have an "important" investment related role, and there is no risk to you still being there, they might give you the two weeks. Regardless, it's not worth the risk that they walk you and you piss away 10k+ because you want to be a "good guy" and do right by them. Wait until July 2 and tell them on that day.

"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed." Theodore Roosevelt
 

I have never seen them claw it back but some banks might do it given their circumstances. If you are worried just don't give them notice. In a perfect world, you would be able to give them 2 weeks notice and have confidence that they wouldn't take anything back but companies have their own interests in mind and they don't view loyalty as a two way street. They would happily lay off an entire class of analysts the day before their bonuses were paid out if it meant getting themselves out of a financial bind or was advantageous to them in any way. Do what's best for you. This is a fairly common scenario, especially in banking where people often get immediate start offers near their bonus date. Make sure that the check hits the account or in your case that you hit your 1 year mark indisputably, and then give them the news. They'll live.

 
rufiolove:

Make sure that the check hits the account or in your case that you hit your 1 year mark indisputably, and then give them the news. They'll live.

This. Nothing is final unless the check hits your account.

"so i herd u liek mudkipz" - sum kid "I'd watergun the **** outta that." - Kassad
 

Ok here is the deal, most banks are not going to chase after you for 10k. Also I would really reread the clauses. My repayment clause states as each quarter passes, the repayment penatly is less. So say you worked for three quarters and leave, then you only have to repay 1/4 of the bonus. I have never heard all or nothing and honestly you'd be surprised how much these guys forgot about the bonus, so if you leave, they may not even notice or care for that matter.

Array
 

They will garnish your accrued check and vacation that they should be paying you out, and if that doesn't cover the amount you owe, they will ask you to pay it back. They aren't going to demand their money on the spot, but will expect a check from you. If you don't have the cash, they might let you pay over time. Don't think for a minute that they will just let it slide or something. Not gonna happen.

"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed." Theodore Roosevelt
 
Best Response
TeddyTheBear:

Ok here is the deal, most banks are not going to chase after you for 10k. Also I would really reread the clauses. My repayment clause states as each quarter passes, the repayment penatly is less. So say you worked for three quarters and leave, then you only have to repay 1/4 of the bonus. I have never heard all or nothing and honestly you'd be surprised how much these guys forgot about the bonus, so if you leave, they may not even notice or care for that matter.

Haha I wish banks were so kind. When I left my S&T job earlier this year, on my exit interview, I was given a document that stated something along the lines of: "Under state law, as stated in your offer letter, you owe us ~$6k because you left before July 2013." Also, you are asked to pay back the post-tax amount; it would be egregious if they asked for the full 10k. Most places are all-or-nothing but your mileage may vary depending on your firm.

 

Read your contracts carefully ladies and gentlemen and let this be a lesson. Employment contracts are NOT boiler plate and can and should be negotiated line by line. In this particular case if the language seems unclear you can ask the new employer if they will cover it, often times they will (just as occasionally the will offer a signing bonus with the caveat that it is reduced by any outgoing performance ((usually commission or trading profit)) bonus you get from the shop your leaving). If you give 2 weeks notice and exhibit a willingness to fulfill the full terms of your contract you SHOULD get paid out and would probably win in court, though 13k is not worth the time, money or reputation lost in litigation.

 
mudkipz:
rufiolove:

Make sure that the check hits the account or in your case that you hit your 1 year mark indisputably, and then give them the news. They'll live.

This. Nothing is final unless the check hits your account.

By definition as signing bonus is paid when you sign on.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne
 

They still have his final paycheck.

Also, I quit on short notice. Actually I drove to work with my bags packed in a rental car and quit on the way to the airport while moving to the biggest competitor in Europe. And yes, it's awkward. But if your move makes sense your coworkers will understand, even if the company tries to screw you. I got asked to write a check for half a day's vacation pay they decided I hadn't accrued yet...

 
kote:

They still have his final paycheck.

Also, I quit on short notice. Actually I drove to work with my bags packed in a rental car and quit on the way to the airport while moving to the biggest competitor in Europe. And yes, it's awkward. But if your move makes sense your coworkers will understand, even if the company tries to screw you. I got asked to write a check for half a day's vacation pay they decided I hadn't accrued yet...

lol i jst had bonus in my account, then quit and had to give it back (post-tax of curse )

"so i herd u liek mudkipz" - sum kid "I'd watergun the **** outta that." - Kassad
 
kote:

They still have his final paycheck.

Also, I quit on short notice. Actually I drove to work with my bags packed in a rental car and quit on the way to the airport while moving to the biggest competitor in Europe. And yes, it's awkward. But if your move makes sense your coworkers will understand, even if the company tries to screw you. I got asked to write a check for half a day's vacation pay they decided I hadn't accrued yet...

Didn't they just net it out of your owed pay?

 
mudkipz:
kote:

They still have his final paycheck.

Also, I quit on short notice. Actually I drove to work with my bags packed in a rental car and quit on the way to the airport while moving to the biggest competitor in Europe. And yes, it's awkward. But if your move makes sense your coworkers will understand, even if the company tries to screw you. I got asked to write a check for half a day's vacation pay they decided I hadn't accrued yet...

lol i jst had bonus in my account, then quit and had to give it back (post-tax of curse )

Why would you pay them? What are they gonna do if you don't? Try and black list you? Sue you for a couple of grand? Its a joke just blow them off and don't pay them anything.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne
 
peinvestor2012:
kote:

They still have his final paycheck.

Also, I quit on short notice. Actually I drove to work with my bags packed in a rental car and quit on the way to the airport while moving to the biggest competitor in Europe. And yes, it's awkward. But if your move makes sense your coworkers will understand, even if the company tries to screw you. I got asked to write a check for half a day's vacation pay they decided I hadn't accrued yet...

Didn't they just net it out of your owed pay?

u act liek payrull actullay functions correctly - same stuff happens w/ us 2

"so i herd u liek mudkipz" - sum kid "I'd watergun the **** outta that." - Kassad
 
heister:
mudkipz:
kote:

They still have his final paycheck.

Also, I quit on short notice. Actually I drove to work with my bags packed in a rental car and quit on the way to the airport while moving to the biggest competitor in Europe. And yes, it's awkward. But if your move makes sense your coworkers will understand, even if the company tries to screw you. I got asked to write a check for half a day's vacation pay they decided I hadn't accrued yet...

lol i jst had bonus in my account, then quit and had to give it back (post-tax of curse )

Why would you pay them? What are they gonna do if you don't? Try and black list you? Sue you for a couple of grand? Its a joke just blow them off and don't pay them anything.

Send ...

 
mudkipz:
peinvestor2012:


kote:

They still have his final paycheck.

Also, I quit on short notice. Actually I drove to work with my bags packed in a rental car and quit on the way to the airport while moving to the biggest competitor in Europe. And yes, it's awkward. But if your move makes sense your coworkers will understand, even if the company tries to screw you. I got asked to write a check for half a day's vacation pay they decided I hadn't accrued yet...

Didn't they just net it out of your owed pay?

u act liek payrull actullay functions correctly - same stuff happens w/ us 2

What language is this? Hentai? Pokemon?

 
peinvestor2012:
heister:
mudkipz:
kote:

They still have his final paycheck.

Also, I quit on short notice. Actually I drove to work with my bags packed in a rental car and quit on the way to the airport while moving to the biggest competitor in Europe. And yes, it's awkward. But if your move makes sense your coworkers will understand, even if the company tries to screw you. I got asked to write a check for half a day's vacation pay they decided I hadn't accrued yet...

lol i jst had bonus in my account, then quit and had to give it back (post-tax of curse )

Why would you pay them? What are they gonna do if you don't? Try and black list you? Sue you for a couple of grand? Its a joke just blow them off and don't pay them anything.

Send ...

LOL, yea right. It will cost them more than its worth.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne
 
peinvestor2012:
heister:

LOL, yea right. It will cost them more than its worth.

Was being facetious.

I know, but would be kinda awesome if that was the case.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne
 
peinvestor2012:
mudkipz:
peinvestor2012:

kote:

They still have his final paycheck.

Also, I quit on short notice. Actually I drove to work with my bags packed in a rental car and quit on the way to the airport while moving to the biggest competitor in Europe. And yes, it's awkward. But if your move makes sense your coworkers will understand, even if the company tries to screw you. I got asked to write a check for half a day's vacation pay they decided I hadn't accrued yet...

Didn't they just net it out of your owed pay?

u act liek payrull actullay functions correctly - same stuff happens w/ us 2

What language is this? Hentai? Pokemon?

-not hent** - not sure if that's an actul lang -not pokemon - i'd jst be saying mudkipz all day

-shortened english online spk umirin? But in reality my keyboard is broken :p

"so i herd u liek mudkipz" - sum kid "I'd watergun the **** outta that." - Kassad
 

Tell them you spent it on Jelly Beans, if they ask for the money back ask them where they would like 10,000lbs of jelly beans to be sent to.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne
 

Just wait it's almost July anyway.

"It's very easy to have too many goals and be overwhelmed by them... The trick is to find the one thing you can focus on that represents every other single thing you want in life." -- @"Edmundo Braverman"
 
heister:

LOL, yea right. It will cost them more than its worth.

Do you recall that banks are... you know... in the business of collections? If it costs a bank >$10k to put your signing bonus into collections, they should be bankrupt by now. But, by all means, if the OP wants to risk having his credit screwed by his bank by not paying his bonus back, go for it!

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
 

Don't most debt collection agencies work on a contingency fee? From my understanding, if they are able to get you to pay, the agency keeps X % of the money and the bank gets (100-X) %. Usually the collectors keep up to 30-50%, so I don't get how it would be more expensive for a bank to assign it to collections (unless the admin costs/hassle outweighs the potential reward, but given how everything is completely automated nowadays, I doubt that's the case).

 
Zzari:

Don't most debt collection agencies work on a contingency fee? From my understanding, if they are able to get you to pay, the agency keeps X % of the money and the bank gets (100-X) %. Usually the collectors keep up to 30-50%, so I don't get how it would be more expensive for a bank to assign it to collections (unless the admin costs/hassle outweighs the potential reward, but given how everything is completely automated nowadays, I doubt that's the case).

This is true, but even this is being apologetic to the absurdity of the claim that "it's not worth the money to pursue getting the bonus back." These are banks we're talking about. How do you think a bank would fare if its general approach to $10k debts was "it's too expensive to pursue"? How exactly do you think credit card debts work?

All of that even ignores the fact that bonus clawback is a commonplace occurrence at IBs. It's not like this is some strange scenario that will "confuse" the payroll department.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
 
NorthSider:
Zzari:

Don't most debt collection agencies work on a contingency fee? From my understanding, if they are able to get you to pay, the agency keeps X % of the money and the bank gets (100-X) %. Usually the collectors keep up to 30-50%, so I don't get how it would be more expensive for a bank to assign it to collections (unless the admin costs/hassle outweighs the potential reward, but given how everything is completely automated nowadays, I doubt that's the case).

This is true, but even this is being apologetic to the absurdity of the claim that "it's not worth the money to pursue getting the bonus back." These are banks we're talking about. How do you think a bank would fare if its general approach to $10k debts was "it's too expensive to pursue"? How exactly do you think credit card debts work?

All of that even ignores the fact that bonus clawback is a commonplace occurrence at IBs. It's not like this is some strange scenario that will "confuse" the payroll department.

It has to do with how it would fare in court. If he went into the court and said my contract said I had to work for 1 year I put in my 2 weeks notice that extended my working time past the 1 year mark. A court would on almost all cases side with the employee even if the bank walked him the day he turned in his 2 weeks notice. He is showing intent to fulfill the contract. If the bank wants to break the contract and walk him early that their choice but in such case they are the ones breaking the contract. So the cost of going to court over it is not worth the time or effort of their legal teams.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne
 
heister:

It has to do with how it would fare in court. If he went into the court and said my contract said I had to work for 1 year I put in my 2 weeks notice that extended my working time past the 1 year mark. A court would on almost all cases side with the employee even if the bank walked him the day he turned in his 2 weeks notice. He is showing intent to fulfill the contract. If the bank wants to break the contract and walk him early that their choice but in such case they are the ones breaking the contract. So the cost of going to court over it is not worth the time or effort of their legal teams.

This has nothing to do with whether or not you actually end up paying back the bonus or not. I can do the same thing with credit card bills. If I just stop paying them, no one is going to sue me. The damage is felt on your credit.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
 

Didn't they just net it out of your owed pay?

u act liek payrull actullay functions correctly - same stuff happens w/ us 2

What language is this? Hentai? Pokemon?

-not hent** - not sure if that's an actul lang
-not pokemon - i'd jst be saying mudkipz all day

-shortened english online spk umirin?
But in reality my keyboard is broken :p

[/quote]

Sorry, but callin' B.S. on the broken keyboard. Typing in that manner seems to me to have two outcomes: 1. you end up taking more time writing that way than you would have typing full words / sentences, or 2. it is actually more efficient for you to write like that, leading to futher dedregation of the English language and likely slipping into your everyday writen and oral verbiage.

TL;DR - Dress for the position you want, speak like those who hold that position.

"I am not sure who this 'Anonymous' person is - one thing is for certain, they have been one hell of a prolific writer" - Anonymous
 

I went through a similar situation, except with a moving stipend. They ended up waiving that because I was "close enough" to the anniversary date (2 year period on this one, though). I honestly think they didn't want to do the paperwork to get back $5k from an outgoing analyst.

 

How close do you think one has to be to the 1-year anniversary to be considered "close enough"?
I'm 4 months away and desperate to get out of this hell-hole. Problem is it's an associate bonus and I don't exactly have a spare $50k laying around. My contract does say "repay full bonus award" so I'm reluctant to pull the trigger...hoping against hope they might prorate it.
Any anecdotes on this front?

 
Solidarity:

3 weeks notice is courtesy

HR may send you a few emails, but I never repaid my signing bonus, and I've heard nothing about it in two years.

Congrats on the job.

Thanks guys. Again, I'm shocked I was even considered for this opportunity.

I spoke with an employment lawyer, and there are two takeaways:

  1. Notice provision: only really applies if you move to a competitor (FINRA guided). If not, then forcing you to work at a company where you've made it clear you're leaving won't hold water in court.

  2. Clawback: Clawback payback is preferred obviously, but it's like collections. The chances of the firm collecting the gross amount immediately is rare, so instead of having to go to court and hiring lawyers and incurring more fees, they'd rather just a settlement out of court. They'll be happier accepting some cash than spending a ton and netting out zero.

Anyways, accepting the offer. Thanks everyone!

 

It is in the contract. If I was a BB, I would bring you to court just to fuck you. It's one thing to leave early, it's another thing to leave early and not pay back the bonus....I would bury in legal bills and still take my 10K.

"Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, for knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA."
 

Bump.

I just signed one of those, too. It had a clause saying that, if employment is terminated for any reason other than job elimination, the bonus would be subject to repayment within 60 days.

How often are 1st year analysts fired?

 

I really just don't see them wasting their time with trying to come after you. I think it would take longer than 60 days for them to get everything together to begin the process of retrieving the money. On top of that, couldn't you work out some type of payment plan or something.

 

not a BB, but at a top boutique, two analysts in my class quit: one had to pay it back and one was able to wiggle his way out of it. so....50% chance depending on your relationships with the MDs you work for

 

i think you pay back the signing bonus for the portion of the time you are not there for the remaining of your first year(.i.e., you have 4 month left, so you pay back 10000/3). Usually the banks will try to get the money from you.

 

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