Pages

  • Sharebar

It is time...

...After 6 years Tier2sta is also leaving the industry....

Why? A lot of what Mr Ridley states is true...

  • This thing's not as lucrative as most people imagined, definitely not so now that so much of the above base comp is deferred / deferred stock
  • Banks don't know what business model actually works, they have no idea how to get their ROE back up to where it was pre-2008
  • IBD teams are too thin, at officer level it means there is not enough depth in resource / quality resource below you to do effectively the things you want to do without constantly stepping down to clean up, mop up, fix, re-do.../li>
  • The glamour isn't what it used to be, and because of the increased levels of stress generally it is less fun
  • My contacts are as good as my business card in most cases (there are exceptions but a large proportion of clients I have interacted with see me in exactly the same way they see my peers at other banks, these are not deep and meaningful relationships and they are driven by the product my bank can offer)
  • My sector knowledge is superficial (I covered the same sector throughout). I could never learn about the sector properly through IBD. The more senior I became the more frustrating this became

So I am stepping down. Been a good ride. Some fond memories. But I think now is the time to try something else.

Peace...

7 1

The WSO Advantage - Investment Banking

Financial Modeling Training

IB Templates, M&A, LBO, Valuation + Learn More.

IB Interview Prep Pack

30,000+ sold & REAL questions Learn More.

Resume Help from Actual IB Pros

Land More IB Interviews. Learn More.

Find Your Perfect IB Mentor

Realistic IB Mock Interviews. Learn More.

Comments (103)

  • PossumBelly's picture

    Obviously this site is industry weighted but I think you younger guys will see that by the time you're in your late twenties you will have friends in every profession go through the OP's transformation. "This seemed interesting---> now it sucks. I thought the money was good ---> now not so much. I learned a lot at the beginning ---> not anymore. When I started here things were different! (even they weren't)"

    Banking is certainly rough, and the industry has seen an exceptional level of tumult, but dissatisfaction/apathy with a job you've been doing for 3-5 years is industry agnostic. Do the best job you can, wherever you end up, and the next thing will be a lot easier to come by.

  • In reply to IlliniProgrammer
    Neighbor's picture

    IlliniProgrammer:

    Come to Wall Street. Spend two years working your butt off; spend another two if you can spend your weekends having fun. Enjoy a glass or two; just don't get drunk on it. Cause the hangover is a real bitch.

    I feel like this should be a slogan somewhere

    I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

  • PaulOwen's picture

    You guys are killing me here. I'm currently working at a at a pretty reputable f500 financial firm. But was looking to get a job in ib or pe here in the next couple of months. Just feel like the job is too easy and I'm looking for more of a challenge.... Thoughts about my situation?

  • In reply to PaulOwen
    IlliniProgrammer's picture

    PaulOwen:
    You guys are killing me here. I'm currently working at a at a pretty reputable f500 financial firm. But was looking to get a job in ib or pe here in the next couple of months. Just feel like the job is too easy and I'm looking for more of a challenge.... Thoughts about my situation?

    Enjoy it! Make the job more interesting. Ask good questions and climb the ladder in front of you.

    The smart hard-working guy in a room full of average people eventually becomes the leader. The smart guy in a room full of smart people is a grunt.

    The problems at an F500 in the industrial sector, utilities, oil companies, pharma; these problems are all real and very important and really do affect people's lives and livelihoods. There is a very close connection there. That new power plant is going to reduce SO2 emissions by 50%, leaving a cleaner environment. That new drug for blood pressure is going to save hundreds of lives. That new tractor will make life easier for thousands of farmers. We NEED smart people at F500 companies, and that's where the money is EVENTUALLY going to slosh back to.

    I feel like this should be a slogan somewhere

    I should probably give partial attribution to a set of comments Jay Leno made about Hollywood. He was basically saying that it's great to work in hollywood, but you shouldn't define yourself by it. When you are spending 60-70 hours+/week at work, it is very easy to define yourself by it, and that's how you start to get drunk on wall street.
  • In reply to IlliniProgrammer
    TechBanking's picture

    IlliniProgrammer:
    TheSquale:
    You should be right...
    Another questions, why some decide to stay in IB in spite of all what Tier2Sta said for example.
    Are these people so driven by money that they forget everything else ?

    Some of these people find work/life balance. Good for them.

    I think that boutiques are going to become a lot more competitive for top talent as many do offer a significantly better work/life balance both at the analyst level and particularly at the Associate/VP/MD levels. If the gap in compensation continues to shrink, the lifestyle at a boutique looks that much better.

    Caveat: Not all boutiques have a great work/life balance, some are sweat shops. Choose wisely...

  • Bondarb's picture

    If you do not like your work then get out, of course. I congratulate the OP and others on taking their life in hand and doing something to change themselves. I hope it works out for them.

    However, as someone who has been in the business for a decade, loves my work, and plans to do it until the day I die (provided my brain still works) I see the volume of these stories as a great contrarian indicator that we finally are seeing a bottom in the financial industry. In 2008 people laughed at me when i said the industry was in for a bad run on this forum. Wall st always over-fires, it'll be over in 6 months, u r a perma-bear, etc etc. Now here we are almost 5 years later, the S&P is near 1400 (w financials amongst the best performers), the economic data is slowly improving, and the consensus here seems to be that the best move is to become a farmer, tech entrepreneur, or street musician. Outside WSO in the real-world this is also the first year that I have heard people getting fired "throwing in the towel" and saying they are not going to try to re-enter the industry...in 2007-09 I heard none of that. This is classic market-clearing behavior...the definition of capitulation.

    I am not a farmer, cant play the piano and unfortunately I surely am not the next Zuckerberg but I am a trader and I have been taught to always be wary of a lazy consensus view.

  • In reply to Bondarb
    Flake's picture

    Bondarb:
    If you do not like your work then get out, of course. I congratulate the OP and others on taking their life in hand and doing something to change themselves. I hope it works out for them.

    However, as someone who has been in the business for a decade, loves my work, and plans to do it until the day I die (provided my brain still works) I see the volume of these stories as a great contrarian indicator that we finally are seeing a bottom in the financial industry. In 2008 people laughed at me when i said the industry was in for a bad run on this forum. Wall st always over-fires, it'll be over in 6 months, u r a perma-bear, etc etc. Now here we are almost 5 years later, the S&P is near 1400 (w financials amongst the best performers), the economic data is slowly improving, and the consensus here seems to be that the best move is to become a farmer, tech entrepreneur, or street musician. Outside WSO in the real-world this is also the first year that I have heard people getting fired "throwing in the towel" and saying they are not going to try to re-enter the industry...in 2007-09 I heard none of that. This is classic market-clearing behavior...the definition of capitulation.

    I am not a farmer, cant play the piano and unfortunately I surely am not the next Zuckerberg but I am a trader and I have been taught to always be wary of a lazy consensus view.

    Awesome.

    Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

  • yhp2009's picture

    Good luck to both of you.
    I can relate in some ways, and I think your mid to late 20's is a great time to reassess and redirect your life/focus/talents if you feel the need.
    You get to sort things out in your head when there is less at stake and you have more options.

  • PaulOwen's picture

    Those are some wise words illin, I can't deny that. Now I'm even more stuck. Literally have the cover letter and resume ready to go. Just don't know if I would be throwing a great opportunity away. I have connects very high up in the company too. Killin me.

  • IlliniProgrammer's picture

    Maye bondarb. But I'm not seeing 24-year-olds or 40-somethings quitting here. I'm seeing guys in their late '20s quitting. This is pretty typical of what happens on wall street. People have always come to Wall Street on the four or five year plan, and they leave after that. You and I both know that this is nothing new.

    I think what's really going on here is the age of the forums. A lot of guys found the site in 2006 when they were interns. So now it's a year of school and five years in industry later. Four or five years was a nice round number for us to promise ourselves when it was over. Now that date is approaching and our subconscious is forcing us to think about getting out.

    You come to Wall Street, you live like a monk, you work like hell, you accumulate your savings, then you take it somewhere outside NYC where a dollar is still a dollar, and you spend it there. After five years of savings, my lifetime utility is now maximized by taking the money and working elsewhere, outside NYC. If Wall Street were booming, maybe I would have added a year; if it were TRULY a bottom (total comps down 60%) like 2003 was for programming, I might have knocked one year off.

  • In reply to PaulOwen
    IlliniProgrammer's picture

    PaulOwen:
    Those are some wise words illin, I can't deny that. Now I'm even more stuck. Literally have the cover letter and resume ready to go. Just don't know if I would be throwing a great opportunity away. I have connects very high up in the company too. Killin me.

    Give it six more months. Ask good, polite, smart questions of your higher-ups. When someone scratches their head and says, "Hey, we've never thought of that", take the initiative and try to prove out whether or not your idea could work. That will draw some positive attention to yourself, and leave you in a good spot to ask to be transferred into a role within the firm that you're more interested in- especially if it's related to your research.

    Most corporate executives and higher level managers are as smart as bankers. Some of them are probably much smarter. They like to be surrounded by other smart people and they like to give opportunities to smart people who take initiative.

    The nice thing about working at a F500 firm is that it doesn't take as much work to show initiative; it doesn't take as much intellect to show brilliance. There are smart people everywhere, but a smart person at Occidental Petroleum tends to stand out a whole lot more there than he would at JP Morgan.

  • In reply to IlliniProgrammer
    RagnarDanneskjold's picture

    IlliniProgrammer:
    I am thinking about getting out, too.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100014240527023048...

    If I work in finance at Exelon/ Commonwealth Edison, I'll be able to come home, flick the light switch, the lights turn on, and I can smile about what I do. If I work at Northern Trust and log in to check my bank account and see interest getting deposited from bank loans, I'll be happy. If I work at Pfizer and wake up on Saturday morning and read in the New York Times about our latest cancer drug, I'll be happy.

    Money is good. Work is good. But as you hit your mid to late 20s, you begin to snap out of chasing castles in the sky and start getting the first inklings of your mortality as a few small hints of gray hair show up, as a few light wrinkles appear, and clocks begin to carry way more symbolism than a piece of furniture should. You look at the money you have in the bank, and it doesn't make you as happy as you thought it would have made you at 22.

    What makes you happy? Friends. Hang gliding/golf/sailing/ things that get you out of the city with friends. Remembering the things you did in college that helped make the world a better place. The arts (sometimes). Spiritual stuff. Money is nice in that it gives you freedom and financial security, but it's not a substitute for the human experience. Kids would probably make me happy too, but they're an 18-year-commitment.

    Come to Wall Street. Spend two years working your butt off; spend another two if you can spend your weekends having fun. Enjoy a glass or two; just don't get drunk on it. Cause the hangover is a real bitch.

    +1 IP

  • In reply to IlliniProgrammer
    Bondarb's picture

    IlliniProgrammer:
    Maye bondarb. But I'm not seeing 24-year-olds or 40-somethings quitting here. I'm seeing guys in their late '20s quitting. This is pretty typical of what happens on wall street. People have always come to Wall Street on the four or five year plan, and they leave after that. You and I both know that this is nothing new.

    I think what's really going on here is the age of the forums. A lot of guys found the site in 2006 when they were interns. So now it's a year of school and five years in industry later. Four or five years was a nice round number for us to promise ourselves when it was over. Now that date is approaching and our subconscious is forcing us to think about getting out.

    You come to Wall Street, you live like a monk, you work like hell, you accumulate your savings, then you take it somewhere outside NYC where a dollar is still a dollar, and you spend it there. After five years of savings, my lifetime utility is now maximized by taking the money and working elsewhere, outside NYC. If Wall Street were booming, maybe I would have added a year; if it were TRULY a bottom (total comps down 60%) like 2003 was for programming, I might have knocked one year off.

    Maybe the OP can speak for himself but I dont think he came into the industry planning to leave in 5 years. On his list of reasons for leaving the industry I dont see "this was the plan all along". And I have absolutely seen 40 year olds and 24 year olds "getting out" which is what I was talking about when i said people off the forum throwing in the towel after getting fired. And wasnt our favorite street musician/the next billy joel a 23 year old analyst?

The WSO Advantage - Investment Banking

Financial Modeling Training

IB Templates, M&A, LBO, Valuation + Learn More.

IB Interview Prep Pack

30,000+ sold & REAL questions Learn More.

Resume Help from Actual IB Pros

Land More IB Interviews. Learn More.

Find Your Perfect IB Mentor

Realistic IB Mock Interviews. Learn More.

  • Cornelius's picture

    ------------
    I'm making it up as I go along.

  • In reply to Bondarb
    IlliniProgrammer's picture

    Bondarb:
    Maybe the OP can speak for himself but I dont think he came into the industry planning to leave in 5 years. On his list of reasons for leaving the industry I dont see "this was the plan all along". And I have absolutely seen 40 year olds and 24 year olds "getting out" which is what I was talking about when i said people off the forum throwing in the towel after getting fired. And wasnt our favorite street musician/the next billy joel a 23 year old analyst?

    True. It was kinda my plan.

    I think this bodes well for the economy. A lot of intellect and talent is getting out of the casino and heading off to industry. I'm not sure having nuclear engineers work on structured products helps the economy quite as much, net-net, as having nuclear engineers work on uprating reactors, getting licenses extended, and helping to expand the grid for wind energy.

  • In reply to Abdel
    rufiolove's picture

    Abdel:
    IlliniProgrammer:
    Edmundo Braverman:
    Just waiting for the college sophomores to chime in with, "Good, OP. Now there's more room for me."

    LOL Eddie, you forgot to mention that us older-than-25-year-olds feel bad for those kids.

    Financial security IS a good objective to spend a few years on. But money is NOT the purpose of life and it certainly doesn't mean success in life. If you're not religious, the world's most successful person was *probably* either an English playwright or a Greek philosopher who was sentenced to death. For those of us who are religious, the world's most successful mortal might have been a bedouin shepherd or a simple fisherman from the Sea of Galilee.

    Nobody remembers who was the king of Austria in 1820. And we're beginning to forget the Rothschilds and the Vanderbilts. In two more generations, we will be forgetting the Rockefellers. And this starts to really hit home the second you notice the first signs of aging. Best situation, kids, is that in 100 years, you get a 200 word blurb in the back pages of some forgotten encyclopedia.

    The plan for everyone should be:

    1- Make enough money to retire before 35

    2- Once #1 is done, spend your time doing research in a STEM field.

    That's a bit myopic and arbitrary don't you think? I think the plan for everyone should be try to find fulfillment in what you do while hopefully leaving the people you interact with in a better place than when you found them. My ultimate goal is to strive to be happy and hopefully make others happy, while not putting my needs and wants above those of my loved ones.

  • Nefarious-'s picture

    I am really tired of these circle jerk threads.

    Also, don't say "+1" if you don't actually give a +1.

    You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.

  • In reply to rufiolove
    Human's picture

    rufiolove:
    I think the plan for everyone should be try to find fulfillment in what you do while hopefully leaving the people you interact with in a better place than when you found them. My ultimate goal is to strive to be happy and hopefully make others happy, while not putting my needs and wants above those of my loved ones.

    Best thing I have read today. Everybody think that they got it all figured out for everyone else. The problem is that no one really see the elephant in the room. You think it is a rope. I say it is a wall. And we are all right and all wrong at the same time.

    "I am the hero of the story. I don't need to be saved."

  • In reply to Nefarious-
    Flake's picture

    Nefarious-:
    I am really tired of these circle jerk threads.

    Also, don't say "+1" if you don't actually give a +1.

    +1

    Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

  • In reply to Flake
    Nefarious-'s picture

    Flake:
    Nefarious-:
    I am really tired of these circle jerk threads.

    Also, don't say "+1" if you don't actually give a +1.

    +1


    http://chelleshockk.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/ff...

    You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.

  • Cash4Gold's picture

    Maybe I don't trade enough size or I just got lucky with a good group, but I love my job. I get to make great money, intellectually stimulating, and it is a real life human psychology experiment. Even if I get paid (slightly) less than the cash bonuses that were getting handed out before Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers went under, as a junior analyst that is fine. There is no other occupation in the world where the sky is truly the limit and someone can go from being in the bottom half of their graduation class to making a shitload of money if they have other skills like mental toughness and an ability to put themselves in a position to be lucky. For me to quit this job or career path would require me to be escorted out of the building by a team of security guards because to be honest, I don't have a magic number, I could do this for a long fucking time. Maybe not from a NYC high rise, but in some way or another I am here to stay and I have worked a lot of other shittier jobs to confirm that is the case.

  • Cash4Gold's picture

    And btw just because the game is changing doesn't mean it is dead. It is dead for those who cannot offer a service that justifies getting paid at their level. The rules are still the same, those who make money or help make money live, and the others hang around until they burn out or get pushed out. For everything else, the Fed writes a blank check.

  • In reply to Cash4Gold
    qweretyq's picture

    Cash4Gold:
    Maybe I don't trade enough size or I just got lucky with a good group, but I love my job. I get to make great money, intellectually stimulating, and it is a real life human psychology experiment. Even if I get paid (slightly) less than the cash bonuses that were getting handed out before Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers went under, as a junior analyst that is fine. There is no other occupation in the world where the sky is truly the limit and someone can go from being in the bottom half of their graduation class to making a shitload of money if they have other skills like mental toughness and an ability to put themselves in a position to be lucky. For me to quit this job or career path would require me to be escorted out of the building by a team of security guards because to be honest, I don't have a magic number, I could do this for a long fucking time. Maybe not from a NYC high rise, but in some way or another I am here to stay and I have worked a lot of other shittier jobs to confirm that is the case.

    What type of trading do you do?

  • dazedmonk's picture

    ILLINI - CALLING YOU OUT

    I understand that you're not interested in high finance anymore, but please stop spreading this "grass is greener" crap, especially with respect to corporate development. The poster that said this kind of disillusionment is largely industry agnostic is largely right.

    I also happen to have worked with a lot of corp dev types at the kind of companies you mention. Same politics. Same bullshit. Only difference is reduced compensation, less rapid career advancement, and often less interesting work.

    You need to grow up a little if you think people like this are coming to work because it's fulfilling. The fact is, most paid work sucks. Even jobs where you are making a direct, measurable impact ( e.g. most on this thread wouldn't volunteer to be third grade teacher, social worker, nurse).

    Such is life and the nature of things.

    PaulOwens, please ignore him, submit your applications, and don't depend on internet forum wisemen for advice on life decisions.

    P.S. Your wife + kids + easy life in the suburbs ideal is itself largely a mirage. One thing to appreciate about finance: you might be a grunt, but at least you're grunt to the people that run s***. I wouldn't give that up to join any F500 corporate machine.

    P.S.2. I'm not saying this to make myself feel better about my life choices. I think their lives do in fact suck and they tend to be somewhat pathetic (as do most ppl in financial services)

  • dazedmonk's picture

    ADVICE FOR U ILLINI

    Dude, this Fortune 500 stuff is bullshit. TRUST ME! Illinois Programmer you call yourself? GET BACK TO IT! Learn some web development. Join a startup. COME TO CHICAGO!

    Chances are against you striking it rich, but its astounding to me that you'd even consider being a tool in a F500 toolkit when you have an actual, valuable skillset that could make you both INDEPENDENT and WELL COMPENSATED.

    COME ON MAN! PM me if you want to chat about this.

  • blastoise's picture

    Some of us are entering finance for the game, something to consider.

  • In reply to Bondarb
    valleybandar's picture

    Bondarb:
    If you do not like your work then get out, of course. I congratulate the OP and others on taking their life in hand and doing something to change themselves. I hope it works out for them.

    However, as someone who has been in the business for a decade, loves my work, and plans to do it until the day I die (provided my brain still works) I see the volume of these stories as a great contrarian indicator that we finally are seeing a bottom in the financial industry. In 2008 people laughed at me when i said the industry was in for a bad run on this forum. Wall st always over-fires, it'll be over in 6 months, u r a perma-bear, etc etc. Now here we are almost 5 years later, the S&P is near 1400 (w financials amongst the best performers), the economic data is slowly improving, and the consensus here seems to be that the best move is to become a farmer, tech entrepreneur, or street musician. Outside WSO in the real-world this is also the first year that I have heard people getting fired "throwing in the towel" and saying they are not going to try to re-enter the industry...in 2007-09 I heard none of that. This is classic market-clearing behavior...the definition of capitulation.

    I am not a farmer, cant play the piano and unfortunately I surely am not the next Zuckerberg but I am a trader and I have been taught to always be wary of a lazy consensus view.

    Beautiful.

  • In reply to dazedmonk
    valleybandar's picture

    dazedmonk:
    ADVICE FOR U ILLINI

    Dude, this Fortune 500 stuff is bullshit. TRUST ME! Illinois Programmer you call yourself? GET BACK TO IT! Learn some web development. Join a startup. COME TO CHICAGO!

    Chances are against you striking it rich, but its astounding to me that you'd even consider being a tool in a F500 toolkit when you have an actual, valuable skillset that could make you both INDEPENDENT and WELL COMPENSATED.

    COME ON MAN! PM me if you want to chat about this.

    Actually, I think Illini's absolutely right, corp dev is a much better job than programming -- http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-22/software-...

  • MoneyTalksMonkeysWalk's picture

    To unlock this content for free, please login / register below.

    Connecting helps us build a vibrant community. We'll never share your info without your permission. Sign up with email or if you are already a member, login here Bonus: Also get 6 free financial modeling lessons for free ($200+ value) when you register!
  • Tier2Sta's picture

    From the ghetto....

  • In reply to Flake
    chicandtoughness's picture

    Currently: becoming a clinical psychologist... yep, I quit finance
    Previously: M&A consulting (Big 4), M&A banking (MM), business research (HBS)

  • In reply to chicandtoughness
    UFOinsider's picture

    Get busy living

  • In reply to chicandtoughness
    Flake's picture

    Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

  • In reply to Flake
    chicandtoughness's picture

    Currently: becoming a clinical psychologist... yep, I quit finance
    Previously: M&A consulting (Big 4), M&A banking (MM), business research (HBS)

  • In reply to UFOinsider
    Flake's picture

    Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

  • In reply to Flake
    UFOinsider's picture

    Get busy living

  • In reply to Flake
    chicandtoughness's picture

    Currently: becoming a clinical psychologist... yep, I quit finance
    Previously: M&A consulting (Big 4), M&A banking (MM), business research (HBS)

  • In The Flesh's picture

    Metal. Music. Life. www.headofmetal.com

Pages