4/30/08

Both schools cost the same for undergrad, but Williams is offering me a scholarship that will pay most of the cost for any graduate/professional school including MBA.
If i plan on going to ibanking or consulting.
Will the possible advantage in recruitment from Dartmouth be worth giving up the scholarship for a possible future MBA?

Comments (19)

4/30/08

I would go with Williams. Dartmouth may have an 'edge' with recruiting, but you also have to factor in the difference in applicant pools from both schools, and where you fit (and that's something you'll have to figure out on your own). Just throwing that out there.

Judging by the great scholarship you've earned, I feel like there realistically won't be a significant difference in terms of where you end up after undergrad -- the only difference is by going to Williams you'll come out debt free, and on top of that go back to school without worrying for the cost.

It's a no brainer.

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4/30/08

untitled:
Williams is offering me a scholarship that will pay most of the cost for any graduate/professional school including MBA.

Williams is offering to pay for your MBA? Wtf?

In reply to transatlantic
4/30/08

http://www.williams.edu/admission/finaid_faq.php?i...

Yes, it's called the Tyng scholarship and gives out need-based grants from very little for Phd programs to up to more than $50,000 each year for expensive professional schools for three years.

4/30/08

Absolutely do Williams considering the financial advantage.

My brother goes to Williams and it sounds like those who are set on banking or consulting usually have no trouble getting there.

4/30/08

damn, that is a bad ass scholarship.

4/30/08

My perspective about Williams and finance (I'm from Williams):

Both are fantastic schools, and you probably won't find much of a difference academically. Williams is much smaller and is restricted to undergrad. Thus there are no TA's teaching courses (don't know about Dartmouth), and relationships with professors are VERY close. If you're interested in trading, the math dept is usually regarded as one of the stronger, if not the strongest, for undergrad.

Williams is more prone to interest laid-back mountain-hiking active types and kids who've been admitted to but shunned the big ivies for an undergrad-centric environment (more Williams students than not seem to have been admitted to H/P/Y as well). This really helps to dull the fault of pretension that's pretty rampant in the elite schools, and you still have a top-notch pool of intelligence. From my visits to Dartmouth I'd say that the two schools have somewhat different atmospheres, but Dartmouth is more like Williams than most other ivies in the above respect.

Now to banking recruitment. Dartmouth's name might be more universally well known, but that isn't the case in the Northeast or the banking world. Williams students have historically made very strong bankers, so there are tons of MD contacts and the name is very well regarded. I had 20+ MD interviews in trading, and several (at least 25%) interviewers made a comment about how impressed they were with Williams and its bankers. One even made a remark to the effect of "this mortgage crisis shows us how we need smarter people, and taking a few kids from Williams sure would be a step in the right direction." Williams is a target for every program and regularly sends people D.E. Shaw and other prestigious offices (I know of 3 off the top of my head just hailing from our math dept)...I really doubt you'll find better name recognition in banking.

As for banking within the school, the Econ department is essentially pre-WallSt. Most Econ majors go into banking, and Econ is by far the biggest major (something like 100/480 majored in Econ last year). Everyone who interviews finds an offer somewhere...I was pre-med with nothing but a little math on my resume and I had no trouble landing a BB sales/trading internship. On-campus interviews are very friendly and virtually everyone has an opportunity to interview with each firm since, as a small campus, we have a much smaller pool of applicants. Lots of job postings in our graduate system from Williams MD's that want Williams kids in their office. I don't know of anyone that hasn't found a respectable offer somewhere, and most have received the offers of their choice.

Anyway, I hope this helps clear up the misconception that Dartmouth has a recruitment advantage. The scholarship is very well regarded within the school (obviously, it's massive), so it's an honor to receive it when you're competing against a bunch of other brilliant students. It's a huge thing to have on your resume...people in banking know that Williams doesn't give out scholarships like that to just anyone. With that, I'd say Williams is a no-brainer, as long as you like the atmosphere.

If you want more info, PM me.

4/30/08

you may want to do some independent research first. obviously, blackmahi sounds just a tad bit biased and may be unreliable ("more Williams students than not seem to have been admitted to h/y/p as well"...)

as for how williams kids do in terms of banking/s&t recruitment, i can't comment, so i won't. but take what people here say with a grain of salt (esp alums...who all tend to love to say how great their school does). sending 3 kids to de shaw is not indicative of anything except that that year you had 3 fucking math geniuses...

my more important point though--
i wouldn't worry TOO much about the difference in future costs for b-school (since as you said, the cost for undergrad is the same at both schools, since presumably they both meet your expected financial need). the beauty of b-school is that it's designed to rocket you into high paying careers immediately after you graduate. obviously, if there was a difference in undergrad costs, this would be a very different situation since there would be 160k of debt now you wouldn't be able to pay off quickly.

after 2 years in banking, you should have at least 20-40k saved up (if not significantly more), and hell, associate signing bonuses these days are 60k...you will be able to wipe out any b-school debt very fast if you are even a little bit prudent with planning. and as long as you get an undergrad job in banking, you should have no problem going back and getting this kind of money after a good b-school. if you take a post banking job in PE, well, completely not going to be an issue. and i should mention, that if you go into s&t post college, most people who are good never go back to bschool these days. in banking, more people are doing the same thing.

so do some more research, but don't over rely either on what alums on these boards say, and seriously, don't think too much about b-school costs. i mean, you want to go into finance, right?

as a prefrosh, the outlay is 6-9 years in the future, and should be probability weighted. discount that shit.

In reply to xqtrack
4/30/08

xqtrack:
you may want to do some independent research first. obviously, blackmahi sounds just a tad bit biased and may be unreliable ("more Williams students than not seem to have been admitted to h/y/p as well"...)

as for how williams kids do in terms of banking/s&t recruitment, i can't comment, so i won't. but take what people here say with a grain of salt (esp alums...who all tend to love to say how great their school does). sending 3 kids to de shaw is not indicative of anything except that that year you had 3 fucking math geniuses...

my more important point though--
i wouldn't worry TOO much about the difference in future costs for b-school (since as you said, the cost for undergrad is the same at both schools, since presumably they both meet your expected financial need). the beauty of b-school is that it's designed to rocket you into high paying careers immediately after you graduate. obviously, if there was a difference in undergrad costs, this would be a very different situation since there would be 160k of debt now you wouldn't be able to pay off quickly.

after 2 years in banking, you should have at least 20-40k saved up (if not significantly more), and hell, associate signing bonuses these days are 60k...you will be able to wipe out any b-school debt very fast if you are even a little bit prudent with planning. and as long as you get an undergrad job in banking, you should have no problem going back and getting this kind of money after a good b-school. if you take a post banking job in PE, well, completely not going to be an issue. and i should mention, that if you go into s&t post college, most people who are good never go back to bschool these days. in banking, more people are doing the same thing.

so do some more research, but don't over rely either on what alums on these boards say, and seriously, don't think too much about b-school costs. i mean, you want to go into finance, right?

as a prefrosh, the outlay is 6-9 years in the future, and should be probability weighted. discount that shit.

Congrats on getting accepted to both. I am probably somewhat biased because I went to Williams as well (class of 2002)...both schools are in small towns and are damn cold in the winter. both schools have great recruiting. both schools are academically rigorous and well respected on Wall St.

The small class size and access to professors is great at Williams, but I would visit both to see which one you like best. Either way, you will easily get recruited at either institution assuming you keep your GPA above a 3.5. Having the scholarship also would look very good on the resume and for the actual class size, Williams is a huge feeder into Wall St. so you won't have trouble....but i don't think you'd have trouble at Dartmouth either. basically you're in a win-win so try to get as good a feel for the schools as you can.

4/30/08

uh, go to Dartmouth. Dartmouth is like twice the size of williams, but I've definitely met more than twice as many Dartmouth alums on the street than Williams (probably 3 to 4 times as many). that's all i know. dartmouth's street representation is very, very strong. i think others here can back me up on that.

go to the best school you can get into. name, pedigree etc. matters. both schools are so similar in terms of lifestyle and 'small-town' feel that you can get in.

i was considering both when i was applying, ended up going away from the east coast (made the right choice for me).

In reply to curiousmonkey
4/30/08

some of the worst advice ever given on this board.

4/30/08

williams and dartmouth are basically identical in terms of lifestyle, professor interaction, isolated location, bit parties etc.

i dunno, i guess i've found out that everyone asks where you went to undergrad and everyone cares up to the top. having a big alumni net work/bigger name helps. especially now that the world is being globalized. 'ivy league' will have a bigger cachet. plus, dartmouth has more options and better representation on the street.

also, don't work about mba/grad school. you have no idea if you'll even go eventually...

just my 2 cents, i am sure others disagree.

In reply to Jay Buhner was sweet
4/30/08

Jay Buhner was sweet:
some of the worst advice ever given on this board.

wwerdd
In reply to bmwhype
4/30/08

bmwhype:
Jay Buhner was sweet:
some of the worst advice ever given on this board.

wwerdd

i am a bit surprised. what exactly about the advice do you find objectionable? i stated my reasons. I know a lot of people on this board stress the 'fit' part of college and i agree with that. like i said before, both schools are very similar in terms of culture and social life.

i think it's sound advice. i am telling him to go to a place that is larger, will afford more opportunities and will likely help him explore a wider variety of post-grad options. i've always believed that your education is what you make of it, sad thing is, the real world works a bit differently. for any field you want to make it into, it's good to have a wider network/contacts/what-have-you. dartmouth does that.

if it was between dartmouth and say stanford, the cultures would be very different, but i'd tell him to take a strong look at stanford due its objective advantages etc.

would love to hear what part you guys disagree with. i think i am approaching the decisions rationally...

4/30/08

Go to williams...they def do get placed well.

they are both great schools, i would go with the one that gives most money.

Best,
SoulSearching

Best,
SoulSearching

4/30/08

haha, this is a harder choice than i thought it would be. I have to make a decision tonight. Tomorrow is the deadline. Any more comments?

4/30/08

I went to a high school where there were a number of students that got accepted into Dartmouth and Williams. I didn't apply to either, but I think there were about 25-30 people that got into Dartmouth and 8-10 that got into Williams. The admit ratio was slightly lower for Williams, but the grade point average and typical SAT scores were also higher. Now, obviously admissions rate doesn't matter much to you at this point since you've already gotten into both, but I still think getting into a college is a means of pre-screening, and most people, at least at my school, felt that Williams was more selective -- at least among the people that decided to apply. But you really have to keep in mind that the applicant pool might be a bit self-selecting -- you'd see more of the standard class of good students applying to Dartmouth, whereas good students who also knew that they wanted to attend a smaller school applied to Williams.

Then you have to think about whether you want to go to a moderately-sized school (Dartmouth) versus a small one (Williams). I assume that you've toured both, because if you haven't, well...I'll just assume you did because every prudent person would check out where they might be spending their next four years. I think the student environment is something you really should think about, as well as the fact that you'll generally have much closer interaction with your professors at Williams because of the smaller class sizes.

I recognize that my advice is pretty generic, but those are the things I'd be thinking about if I were in your shoes. With respect to Blackmahi's comments about how there are a number of students that got admitted to HYP but instead chose Williams (versus the same number that may have gotten into Dartmouth who were faced with the same decision), I would expect Williams to have a higher number -- simply because it's a much different school from HYPS than Dartmouth is. I would think that if a candidate were set on going to a typical Ivy League school and got into all of them, he/she probably would have chosen HYPS...whereas comparing HYPS to Williams is essentially like apples to oranges, and maybe you see more people choosing Williams over HYPS after their student visits because they like discover that they like going to a smaller liberal arts school. Who knows?

Saving the best for last...that scholarship you've been offered is very substantial, and I would weigh that pretty heavily in the decision making process if I were you.

Anyway, it's all pretty speculative but at the end of the day, the decision is yours and you should take everyone's feedback with a grain of salt. As a disclaimer, I didn't apply to either Williams or Dartmouth (I was an HYPS graduate and only applied to a handful of schools because of personal considerations) -- but if I had to compare those two schools, my thought process would be just what I outlined to you earlier. But they are both very good schools and I'm sure you'll do fine at both.

4/30/08

thats weird, at my school the exact opposite was true (ie the dartmouth kids were better than the williams kids, and the williams kids were not people who had the option of hyps, but neither were the dartmouths--and some of the dartmouth kids were really stellar, where not a single person i can think of who went to wiliams in any of the 4 years i was there was). but hey, different strokes for different folks (also high schools tend to have cultures about colleges and what kids think are prestigious)...i would agree that by and large the students were similar though.

all i would reiterate is don't go for the money. figure out where you think you'd do the best (since apparently both schools are good for recruiting)--and go there. if you end up at a place you hate, you'll inevitably end up doing worse. if you're truly indifferent (and in your gut feel you would be just as successful at either place), then go with the money.

so yeah, go with your gut. you're fortunately in the place of not really having any bad options here.

4/30/08

One tremendous advantage that Dartmouth has is the D-Plan. It is a quarter system, and students can choose which terms they want to be on campus. My junior winter I, and a ton of my friends, interned at banks. There is little competition from other students, and it makes getting a top internship even easier.

5/3/08

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