How bad is it really... the back office
There certainly is a lot of material on this topic here, but I wanted to get people's opinions on a back/middle office Internship in an IBD recruiting context. I have been offered a summer internship at a MM in London in their treasury dept. The question I haven't been able to get a definitive answer to yet is: will this help or hurt my chances for securing an internship and hopefully FT role in IB?
LEARNING OPPORTUNITIES:
The way I see it, treasury (as well as risk/controlling and to a degree even Ops) teaches you a hell of a lot about how a bank generates its money (even though you are not directly generating that money). So, is this experience viewed more favourably for IBD than something like a corporate strategy internship at a F500?
OTHER OPTIONS:
If the above is completely wrong, and the Back office really is the doom and gloom it's often made out to be, what would people recommend as an alternative summer internship (still open this late in the recruiting cycle) that can be used as a route to the coveted IBD?
The best advice I can offer would be to not use this website as a measuring stick. You're on a forum that essentially lives by IB or bust as a mantra - you're going to get a lot of one sided views.
I'd suggest networking a bit, get on a call with an analyst in a similar BO role and talk to him about his job; decide if it fits YOU or not.
All depends on the situation. If you have a supportive boss and like the work (which really isn't that bad and probably is more interesting and allows you to learn a heck of a lot more than learning how to sleep 4 hours a night while spending 75% of your time at work just reading the news). A year or two down the line doors will open for you if you're talented, internal mobility is increasingly becoming a focus of these firms because they can get a known commodity, slide them over, and in every single instance I have seen of this, these are the top analysts on the desk as on one hand you have arrogant asshole who landed the position he coveted right out of school, who doesn't actually know anything, versus somebody that knows pretty much everything you need and understands the firms culture and how to thrive in it.
IBD Analyst Programs are overrated. Take that from someone who had 3 offers for it and opted to go with S&T instead. I know damn well if I wanted to move to IB there are 2 groups I could probably join within a few weeks internally at this point, but I don't have any interest in working more, for marginally more money, and honestly learning less. I have done more extensive modeling during my time on the credit desk than any of my peers within IB have done. I have done an IBD internship (wanted S&T full-time so moved from IBD -> S&T, not very common) and it is really overhyped as an experience. The network effect is because you're surrounded by kids born into money who couldn't fail at life if they tried, and other kids who are just good at "fitting in". There are exceptions and every shop is different, but generally understanding how banks make money (something you would know better than anybody not in a FIG group - and even then, possibly more) which is what you would learn in Treasury is likely beneficial over taking an IBD offer you're not interested in just so you can spend 2 years partying and telling girls you're an investment banker (which they interpret as, oh wow, this idiot will pay for all my drinks and every date we go on. Sign me up).
Very insightful, cheers. I must say this is a very relevant perspective, which you don't hear particularly often on this forum, thanks for the tip.
Come back in 2 years when you are trying to get your Analyst to Associate promote and your bank says no thanks. Suddenly every move you made is no longer about the 40 year path, because you will be looking for the next bank to take you on instead of going without a job.
But carry on, I hope you're enjoying 100 hour weeks! (assuming you're a banker and not completely irrelevant/worthless/student (which is still one of the first two)). I'll keep on enjoying my weekends, evenings, and post-tax salary variance of about $3000.
Fuckin chill bro.
"In a role that is closer to trader than banker, skills likely won't translate into a consulting role, at least not at a big 3 consulting firm.
Don't see longevity in the role I'm presently in and I don't want to end up being 31 applying to Columbia Teachers College to try and have a second career to make ends meet as a member of the lower middle-class."
That is a comment you posted describing your job in a thread you created to elaborate on your lack of exit ops. Did everyone else that is junior on your team get axed in the last three months? What freed up so much potential for upward mobility? Or were you just blind to the "longevity" present in your role back then? What the fuck is "a role that is closer to trader than banker"? Are you a trader? Are you a salesman? Do you structure products? Or are you just a bitch boy clerk?
Also, your use of a bottom bucket 1st year banking analyst vs. a top bucket 2nd year S&T analyst to arrive at your "post-tax salary variance of about $3000" is dubious at best. No wonder you don't see longevity in the role.
If I had to guess, sounds like you're regretting taking that "S&T" position because it isn't everything you'd thought it would be, and now you are jealous of the multitude of exit ops that we bankers are privy to.
The issue with BO work is the lack of exit opportunities, skillset and not being in a revenue generating role. Job pays fine and you could go into F500 or something along those lines. There are also different jobs within operations which will have more benefit or skills than simply clearing trades.
I did BO for 5 months and wanted to leave within the first month, but that is just me. Pay is fine when you compare it to similar type jobs (F500/accounting), but obviously pales in comparison to IB, PE, HF, etc.
Different strokes for different folks. But yeah, this site is obviously FO focused which is why BO gets no love.
The most important part is that not all MO/BO jobs are created equal. Would you rather process cash wires all day or look at the P&L, positions, and risk in a book? Neither are FO yet one sounds more interesting than the other.
It's not about whether something is FO, MO, or BO. Are you fulfilled in your role and the career path that it leads to? No? Then do something about it. If you want to be a trader, then take the necessary steps to get there. But if you don't land there, do not lose hope.
There's much more to a career than whether something is revenue generating or not. You have to think holistically. Do you like the company? Are you passionate about what the company does and what your role is? How's your boss? Is there room for growth and promotion? How's the culture? These things are irrespective of the FO because there is no guarantee that you will like anything about your FO job.
The perception about the BO is that the work and pay sucks. That's totally true in some cases, but that's not a blanket statement. I'd hardly say that working 50-60 hour weeks, making $200k all in, living in a 5000 square foot house because the COL is stupid cheap, and really enjoying what you do falls into the blanket statement that the BO sucks.
It's all about what you make of it. Become engaged in your career no matter what it is. If you are in accounting, get your CMA, CPA, MPA, etc. If you're in finance get your CFA, CAIA, etc. Why? Because that's how you become engaged in your career. It's how you own your shit. It's how to become an expert in your field. I know people who work in the BO who are literally geniuses For an accountant, landing an Accounting Policy job at a BB is like a finance guy landing a job in IBD at a BB.
I'm not going to sit here and tell you that reconciling accounts all day is the way to go. It's probably not and if you enjoy that then kudos, but seriously, look at how many different non-FO jobs are out there. And they absolutely pay differently that one another.
From the day you join this website, your head is filled with this FO or bust mentality, but it is just a mentality. There is hope and there is opportunity everywhere. I cannot stress this enough. I am not knocking the mentality, but I am trying to provide a voice of reason for those who desperately want to get to the FO but are in MO/BO roles.
If you hate your MO/BO job, do something else. Use your experience as leverage into something better even if it's not FO.
One of the most important pieces of advice I've ever received is that you have to understand that your career is probably going to be 40 years of working. It is not a race. If it takes you 10 years to land that epic job, then fine. And who's to say in a few years, you still want to go into IBD or PE? There's no guarantee.
When I graduated college, I knew nothing. Absolutely nothing. And it took me at least 5 years to realize that. People who say that they hated their MO/BO job, I get it. Yeah you probably hated "your" job, but that doesn't mean that all the jobs (which are probably like 10 different ones to 1 FO job) are the same.
That is all.