Being Fired and being upfront about it
I was fired some time ago, as part of the terms of my contract I had 6 months' notice period, which of course is taking me through bonus season on basic pay only.
While I have been able to say that I am still employed by my current employer, and explain all the other reasons for wanting to leave such as progression limitations, wanting a broader experience, etc, all of which are true, I will not be able to explain why I got a 0 bonus when it comes to reference checks.
I am reluctant to tell headhunters etc that I got fired because it's an immediate red flag. A lot of the companies I am interviewing for now will also not look at anyone who previously got fired, regardless of how good a reason I may have in my defence. They just don’t want to get someone else’s sloppy seconds, and with a massive pool of potential candidates, they don’t need to if they don’t want to take that risk. I didn’t want to believe this but I have been given explicit examples where this was the issue for otherwise excellent candidates.
I know that most places, if they want you, won't ask too many questions, but I am particularly worried about the reference check stage. I don't want to end up in a situation like this guy for example:
wallstreetoasis[ dot com]/forums/ive-been-fired-what-do-i-do
So what do I do? Do I tell the headhunter? I want to maintain a good relationship with them so don't want to embarrass them. Or do I go through the whole process and tell them that I haven’t received those payslips or my P45 (I’m UK based) yet because my current employer is just slow? Has anyone else got experience on this? Is there anything I'm missing / should also be thinking about?
Thanks in advance,
First off, sounds like you weren't fired, you were laid off.
Fired is let go for cause, laid off is let go for a reason other than performance. Seems to me they wouldn't have given you severance/contract if you were fired (unless I read that incorrectly).
Most important, try to be upfront about it but always spin it, just be able to explain it. Example, I did a great job, I learned a lot, but unfortunately the company decided to eliminate our team.
If you did get fired, talk about it in the interview, but also discussed what you have learned.
It also all comes down to you, if you're able to smooth talk, go with that; if you're not good at it, I wouldn't necessary try it now.
I think I was fired because my boss decided that "in light of my performance we should come up with terms of separation". There are a bunch of reasons why this was bs, (yes I did some things wrong but this outcome was disproportionate), and they paid me off so that I wouldn't take them to court for unfair dismissal, but ultimately I fear that in finance, people are not going to bother looking at this with any degree of detail.
Also, as the place I am in particular looking at is a direct competitor of the place I would be leaving, they know the team wasn't eliminated.
It's a fact that if this team knows that I was let go/fired, they will not hire me. So perhaps it's simply unethical for me to go for it at all as that would be knowingly deceiving them, however unfair that might be on me?
There is nothing unethical about applying to a competitor. This is your livelihood and you're entitled to seek out the best opportunities and to advertise yourself in the best possible light for those opportunities. That's it. End of story.
Personally, without fully understanding the terms of your dismissal, I would make no mention of it to anyone during your job search for any reason. Take that to your grave. Your employer kept you on for six months, so as far as the rest of the world is concerned you're still on good terms. You're looking for new opportunities and, because you're still working there, you're not comfortable listing your current employer as a reference.
Yes, there's a chance that you get an offer and your future employer finds out about your $0 bonus. I think those odds are relatively small (getting less and less acceptable/legal to ask about past earnings), and you have very little to lose.
A job search is not the same thing as testifying under oath, where you're required to tell "The whole truth and nothing but the truth." You disclose your positive attributes, and you omit the negative unless you must address it, at which point you spin it as positively as possible. Every job applicant has warts - that's forgivable. What's not excusable is being unaware that you're required to be your own best advocate. That means not being overly forthcoming with negative information when you don't have to.
I'm not going to tell you to outright lie, but I am going to say do whatever you feel you need to do to get the job if you want it. Playing by the rules is one thing, but also finding ways to get what you want is another.
Here's an example (if you follow football), remember when the Steelers had Le'veon Bell and Lagarreette Blount on the same team, and essentially fired Blount because they liked Bell more. Blount went on to win the Super bowl with the Patriots and the Eagles, Bell has yet to get to a Super Bowl.
Basically, don't let one team tell you you suck; go find another team and win the Super Bowl.
Thanks guys that's really encouraging.
I think my only real worry then is that they find out about the $0 bonus, and I think it is an absolute certainty they will (most background checks in the UK include previous payslips to prove your previous bonuses). So as a result should I just be upfront about that then, and try to explain it, or is telling people about the $0 bonus the same as being fired?
When do you get your bonus? If it’s several months out, you could cite bad culture or something other than bad performance.
Your former employer will not discuss your previous compensation. It's illegal in most states, and the firm has no incentive whatsoever to give your compensation data to a competitor. They will also not disclose the terms of your leaving. If they respond to the employment verification request at all (which, once again, they have no incentive to do so), your former employer will typically only verify title and dates of employment. Doing anything else poses liability to the firm with little to no upside. Companies (as a rule) minimize their liabilities, and standard HR policy at virtually all large firms is to give only dates of employment and title if they respond to the request at all. Your old employer has no obligation to respond to requests for employment verification. In fact, allocating resources (time, money and IT systems) to store your biographical data, compensation history, and reasons for termination is incredibly unproductive for a company, because if they lose any of that information due to a hack, they're liable for that. Most companies destroy employee records shortly after they leave for those exact reasons. That might not have been the case 10 years ago, but that's definitely considered best practice today.
Now, if they call your former team instead of HR when verifying your employment, someone on your team might give up more information than they're supposed to, but as long as you list a reference that doesn't hate you, you'll be fine.
Came to post this too.
Dont be concerned about being ethical. Its dog eat dog.
In the same position here except the firm is small and would definitely be able to respond. Based on the above I was laid off, not due to any work or effort reason but due to the fact they didn't have a need for what I was doing in the foreseeable future. The catalyst was that I was interviewing and they found out. For jobs I applied to before I was let go/laid off how would you spin it? Be honest with the firms or do not mention it? The new firms are very large and would definitely do all the checks here I actually don't know what those really are since I've never worked at a large firm before
No concern on the compensation side.
Big difference between laid off and fired. I was laid off before because my firm moved away from my old groups business, and no one batted an eye lash.
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