Following up after an info session is great, especially if you actually took some positive information from it....
However, there is a new email circulating Wall Street that may not dethrone the "Barclays Welcome to the Jungle" one from a few years back but.... here is some examples of exactly how not to network. Keeping out names for the sake of confidentiality even though everyone on the street has seen it with real names...
Overall started out okay...
Hope you've had a good day. First want to thank you for taking time out of your day to come and teach us about finance. I am only a freshman and don't know much, and to be honest I was just so impressed by every single bank employee. Something about your speech just really pumped me up to go into finance, but for some reason I didn't get to ask you some of the questions I had. I was wondering if we could talk on the phone for a few minutes tomorrow if you have time. Even though everyone was super nice you seemed like the most approachable, but I didn't really get to ask you anything! I assume you're super busy, but let me know if you have 10 minutes or so. Your introduction definitely galvanized me to pursue finance.
After agreeing to a quick phone call is really where the s*** hit the fan:
Also this will seem random and presumptuous but I feel compelled to share. I see the price of oil skyrocketing to a stratospheric high in the next 1.5 year. I could give a robust international studies justification but that wastes both of our time. The reasons lie in Venezuela, Syria/Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Nigeria. This probably sounds arrogant but there is literally no doubt in my mind. I could be wrong. Look forward to talking to you
no response: so (s)he followed up with the real winner
One more thing. My instincts tell me the volcano Crater Rock will erupt in October this year and destroy the entire Pacific Northwest. It hit me in my geology class today. There will be a hole in the United States in a few months. Take these with a grain of salt Ashley and know that I hope I'm wrong.
Gotta love the hustle
Mod Note (Andy): top 50 posts of 2017, this one ranks #36 (based on # of silver bananas)
Got it this morning, absolutely love this kid.
"literally no doubt in my mind. I could be wrong." Had me rolling
Already bought only uncovered levered oil calls and sold my house in Seattle because of the impending Volcano....
Networking Douche Stories? Share Them Here! (Originally Posted: 11/16/2013)
I guess I've learned my lesson. Peace out folks interesting discussion from both sides.
Like picking a movie or a place to get dinner, always trust your instincts, even if you are saying Armageddon to the Pacific NW
that's why i'm in mexico...
You seem a bit butthurt by this. He didn't respond to your e-mails. He didn't want to talk. Don't harass professionals. Just because he is an alum of your school doesn't mean he has to talk to an clear his schedule for your all-important generic questions. Further, why are you calling him if you aren't so impressed by his credentials? You seem to look down on his position because he is not some "hot shot Goldman Banker," but you're a lowly, over-aggressive college student with an over-inflated ego.
Calm down. He didn't want to talk, get over it.
I'll have to agree here. He has no reason to help you to be honest. In fact, you have nothing to offer him. If anything, you could ruin his reputation if he referred you and you turned out to be a horrible candidate. Just look at it from the other perspective.
Now if someone called me I'd be absolutely glad to help them, but don't ever expect help, be grateful for those who do offer.
nailed it.
If you go to "a fairly small school known for its tight alum network", why would you post this here? It would be very easy to figure out who you are. Then, all it takes is someone to alert the "asshole" and have him forward your resume to other banks with a big "DO NOT HIRE" attached to it. Even if the guy works at a firm that is not "considered highly prestigious ", he probably knows many guys at top banks. Avoid moves like this. Finance is a small world and everyone knows everyone.
Grow some balls. The OP did not do anything wrong. That guy is a jerk and if I were the OP I would post his name on here and where he works. "Finance is a small world" for jerks too.
Wow. Granted after two unanswered emails it's probably best not to call; you're doing so at your own risk and there's always a good chance of catching someone in the middle of a stressful project. However his follow up email wasn't necessary. Probably better to send something like, "I apologize for not getting back to your earlier. I wish I could help but I don't think I could be of any service at this point. Best of luck!"
That is awful, and being busy is an awful excuse. Even banking hours aren't wall to wall work; there's time in there for a quick chat. A reply to your first email saying he had nothing to offer would have taken the same amount of time as his self-important reply.
Keep your head up and keep networking. Be fond of these stories because someday when you're in the position to help kids that want to network into you, you can feel that much better about taking an interest in the success of fellow alums.
I commiserate. What a huge dick.
On the one hand, I understand how you feel about this. You're trying to get some help here and he throws cold water in your face and gives an asshole response with it.
That said:
1.) You're not entitled to other peoples' help. 2.) It's possible to succeed without other people's help. 3.) Bankers are assholes. It's par for the course. Traders are even worse. Hey, he could have laughed at you and THEN hung up. (Which I've seen before.)
Warm welcome to finance! :D
let me guess, this guy is within the first 1-2years of his career. having just come out of my first few years.. i see analysts (ok, including myself) abusing the little bit of 'mentor' power all the time.
for example, at my last get together with a few others in big banks, all i heard were these little 2012/2013 recent alums bitching about how 'rude' the undergrad that reached out to them were.. with examples to poke fun at. i'm pretty sure i was an a-hole at some point myself, but trust me you grow out of it.
i have no idea what you posted originally.. but with that said, i agree illini above. you are not entitled by any means BUT it sounds like he took the extra time (i.e. same time to tell you he's busy or 1-2 quick advice and shoo you away) to chew you out. that's a bit unnecessary.
more on #2 above. it's possible succeed without others' help.. this is hard. but it is definitely, definitely possible to succeed without this particular alum's help. just reach out to another. be less aggressive next time. and pick someone older than 1-2years in, they tend to be more mature; if they do respond chances are they will have meaningful things to say. if they don't have time, by this point they've learned to just not respond and not overpromise. i'm clearly saying this from personal experience. ;)
good luck
You do realize that one day you're going to have to write a book featuring all the things you've seen in your day, right? That should be a definite best-seller.
Sorry you got nuked (and for the bad pun). I've been doing well, but then again I'm just starting out.
Wouldn't let it bother you, but he is a dickhead.
Worst I ever had was one guy replied, "No thanks, email HR." I still sent my generic thank you lol.
I never said I wasn't impressed by his credentials. I simply meant it would at least be sort of understandable if he worked at Goldman, widely considered as the firm on the Street with the highest prestige.
As to the point by someone else about referring somebody and risk ruining their reputation, I feel like that shouldn't be a factor because he doesn't have to refer me to anyone at all.
Haha who doesn't love a good pun.With such flawless logic I can't believe he didn't hire you on the spot
OP I have a different take to all this. When I was networking with alumni on the street for IB positions I never expected much from anyone. I appreciated whatever was done for me and kept in mind that not every alumni is in a position to help me or further more, he might have had a horrible experience at my school and hence, is not interested in helping me. I relied on my own merit and credentials and I firmly believe merit has gotten me where I am today. Just forget it and move on. If you believe you have the capability to be in IBD just go ahead and make it happen without relying on anyone else help. GL to you.
You sound like one annoying bitch.
LOL
Guys, I'm the negatively resistant guy who hates overly-aggressive college kids and got the job through two rounds of interviews that were entirely technical questions from people he'd never met before.
1.) Yes, OP is overly aggressive. He's pissed he got shot down. He should not be surprised- this behavior is quite annoying. 2.) He's a 20-year-old college kid, not some 25 year old creepy guido from Jersey trying to pick up your girlfriend. He is annoying, he may be an unintentional asshole, but this is somewhat forgivable.
We've broken the news to him. He needs to have some decorum; we need to have a bit of mercy.
+1 IlliniProgrammer.
Sure there is no sense being super mad about what happened, but I still think there's no excuse for being a dick to someone you don't even know, under any circumstance. For everyone judging OP harshly, remember: if nobody has EVER given you a break or treated you kindly, then go ahead and be harsh. But if you've ever had a kind or encouraging word from a stranger (happens all the time on WSO) then lighten up.
Even if we can't expect results or hand-holding while networking, it would be a really great world if we could all expect common courtesy.
I don't see why people are knocking the OP for being "overly aggressive.". I think calling was a bit much (I would typically refrain from calling folks if you are actively attempting to connect via e-mail), but in OP's defense: - A no reply isn't a, "leave me alone." - The alum could have handled much better. - How many hundreds of threads are on this site suggesting students take an overly aggressive networking approach?
I have emailed an alum who never responded; when I met them a few months later, great people. Fact is, people get busy and don't always respond - it happens.
Spot on...pretty much exactly what I would have responded with. Although I'm not sure I would describe traders as "much worse", maybe "have greater capacity to be less tactful".
The email was definitely a dick move and could have been worded more politely. This is a good lesson in developing a thick skin though. You're going to need it even more once you actually have a job.
I see what you did there...
Glass houses...
@NuclearPenguins: I love how you trash your alum for not being a "Goldman Sachs hotshot" who only works at a "MM shop" when you would give your left nut and trade your first born son to have his job. Sounds like the only douche is you.
@OnlyGWBushesandHicksComeFromTexas: lol go ahead and try that. I guarantee that you will win the 2013 Jeffrey Chiang award and get blackballed from Wall Street before your career even starts.
Or maybe he will. Have you thought that? I would also report him to the alumni association of the university.
@GWBushesandHicksComeFromTexas: Wow just wow. I am honestly at a loss for words. Wall Street is an industry that takes care of its own. If you think for one second that the Street is going to side with a kid that is butt hurt because he was ignored by a professional that you are openly harassing at work then I don't know what the fuck to tell you.
Look kid, you are looking to break into one of the most cutthroat, competetive, testosterone driven industries out there. If you can't handle a busy professional blowing you off than you are entering the wrong business. Sounds like you are more cut out to be a kindergarten aide.
P.S. What happened to manliness in America?I guess this is what participation trophies has wrought.
I don't know....What happened to manliness in Brazil, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Mexico and Canada? Hard to say because America is a very big continent, unless you are from the US and are affected by superiority complex and think America is a country. If that's the case, you are simply ignorant, not manly.
The OP did not arass anyone. He is not the Pope or Beckham, just need to get over himself. I work in the industry and regularly make myself available to talk to alumni. Nobody is that "busy". They are just pretending to be "busy" to cover up their lack of productivity and to stroke their ego as if working a lot makes you cool. Well you are not, you are just that type of guy who never got laid growing up and thinks money will help him do so. You obviously never excelled at anything, or sports or you wouldn't be an asshole to people.
can anyone tell me what the alum replied since the OP edited the post
1.) I recommend we lock this thread. 2.) For the record, I think a 25 or 30 year old investment banker: (A) has more at stake than OP and (B) should have known better but
(C) OP is wise not to screw himself and the other guy, though. This won't end up like Jeffrey Chiang or Alexey Vayner, but it will be 1/10th as bad for him.
Anybody want to summarize the story in OP's post?
I assume it went something like this:
1.) OP reached out to alum 2.) Alum never got back 3.) OP continued to reach out to the point of annoying the alum 4.) The alum fired back with a harsh email
Please advise.
The alum hung up on a cold call and then sent a mildly harsh email. OP was considering releasing the name and firm of the alum.
Thanks for the heads up.
I wonder if OP posted the alum's email reply. That would've been a surefire way to blacklist yourself.
OP was complaining. It's ok to come here to vent.
We have to remember what we were up against at age 20 and 21. They're *not *quite fully grown adults *yet. We don't have to cut them a lot of slack, but it's ok to cut them a little.
Quit trolling. OP made no mention of releasing the guys name or firm.
Meh. In this age of social media, you gotta be careful what you put in an email, especially to someone you don't know. Why not call the kid to chew him out for kicks?
Can someone post the link?
Dumb move on the alum's part. Gives his firm a bad rep (you can bet OP will tell his friends at school, those friends tell their friends etc.) And you never know, the college kid you spurn today could be your boss in a few years. There are some on the street who know this and treat talented young guys with an appropriate amount of respect. Others who don't, like this alum, will get what's coming to him. No matter how long you've been in this industry, there is always someone younger, smarter, and more talented than you on his way in, so be nice.
Yes please post the link if possible.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=america
A country that claims the name of an entire continent to itself alone for no compelling reason. Mexicans, Colombians, Brazilians... they're Americans too.
I was recently in Kyrgyzstan for two months, and I would introduce myself as being from America, or in Russian, "Я из Америкы." Everyone understood I was from the country, not the continent.
The onlygwbushes guy just cited urbandictionary.com as a source. Again, he's either a troll or is missing part of his brain. Either way, disregard him.
I know someone who walked up to a KPMG stand at a fair and just started talking while they were talking to another person. The other person then started talking again, and she just blatantly interrupted him, smiled, and said “sorry”.
Then she continued to talk to them....
My instincts tell me this kid will not have a job in finance. Ever.
Also, some people I've spoken with who know him personally claim he wasn't trolling.
(S)he was emailing an MD from Goldman.. would be just rude to troll
Partner MD*
Sounds like someone really wants to ask Ashley out and thinks these random bursts of "knowledge" will impress her. Don't forget to add on "but I could be wrong" to "stay humble/coachable," just as WSO and other interview guides suggest.
Nailed it. This literally sounds like a freshman who is high off adderall and can't control their thoughts.
Definitely reads like some psychotic episode is about to take place. This is troubling for me as I tend to find freshmen geology students as being my primary go to on market predictions and doomsday theories.
Sounds like this kid took adderall for the first time and just typed whatever came to mind
"Your speech just really pumped me up to go into finance" "Galvanized" "A robust international studies justification but that wastes both of our time" "There is literally no doubt in my mind. I could be wrong" "Destroy the entire Pacific Northwest" "It hit me in my geology class" "There will be a hole in the United States in a few months" "Know that I hope I'm wrong"
You just got trolled by a bored kid who's already got other plans in life.
I should buy volcano insurance
Nah, been saving up to rent a basement apartment in Venice
Pompeii = City = Destroyed by volcano Seattle = City = Destroyed by volcano
WAKE UP SHEEPLE
we've never had any trouble with volcanos here, but i think we're due for one
Golden. +1 SB
A hole in the United States is my favourite line...like not even buy this insurance stock, or these natural disaster relief companies.... a hole will take a chunk out of the USA.... the value add is 10,000+
Isn't it obvious? Short the Pacific Northwest
While unrelated to your post, I'd like to share something in the spirit of "how not to network"...
To those aspiring to break in - email can work, but please keep your messages short and sweet. I get lengthy emails from senior people at my firm frequently because they often think email is like a running diary of their thoughts on an investment opportunity. The last thing I want to do is read a cold email from someone that is 3+ paragraphs long. You don't need that much space to introduce yourself and express interest/what you want.
One of my favorite lines from a former colleague that I like to keep in mind: "Sorry for the long email, I was in a hurry"
Don't be offended if you don't receive a response the first time around - it requires persistence, especially if you're doing out of the blue. Often times I'll place an interesting inquiry from someone in a to-do list folder and I just don't get around to responding to it that week. I may not speak for everyone, but I usually try to connect and follow up if I forgot to reply the first time around and someone sends me another polite follow-up note.
the "sorry for the long letter" is a famous quote from (I think) Pascal
Adderall's a hell of a drug
Ashley? He was trying to get his dick wet
Don't be presumptuous. Ashley is also a man's name, ie unisex
Not sure why you got MS for this. I can think of 2 examples of men named Ashley off the top of my head (Ashley Cole the soccer player and Ashley Wallbridge the DJ).
Has to be a troll. Still somewhat fresh out of high school (those years are when I think you're most susceptible to be a jackass), probably has no desire to be in the career field, probably wanted to rile someone up.
I love the response from Ashley to her colleagues: "I'm starting to worry about this guy"
i have an idea for an email i'm going to send to a bank (anonymously) and see if it makes it back to WSO ...
You guys in IB get all the funny emails... I'm jealous. Us plebs in consulting just get the occasional moron asking when Bain is going to be acquired by Accenture.
Last time I heard, it was Bain getting acquired by PwC/Deloitte.
You're way behind, it's now McKinsey getting acquired by Deloitte
actually just read an article on Yahoo! about a volcano in Italy acting up, this kid might be on to something! Volcano in NW
"Volcano erputs"
Hahahaha. I should buy weather swaps on volcanoes in the NW.
It's like he was trying to double text this chick and when she didn't answer he went straight for the "the worlds ending" card to try to slide in the DM's
Volcano you say? Hired
Too funny. I wish I get these emails when I'm in IBD.
Can you post the full email chain?
"literally no doubt in my mind. I could be wrong." SHORT EVERYTHING
Gotta respect the lack of fucks given
Please indulge us, meet with that person for a coffee, and report back.
In addition, I am very interested in his volcano play and would like to know what we should go long/short on.
TIA
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