New Hire Not Getting It
Recently added a position to our team and have been pretty underwhelmed with analytical abilities. Soft skills are there and interviewed well compared to applicant pool, but we're already starting to get worried about handing off more complex tasks. Anyone run into this and have insight?
As a sidebar I think this is emphasizing my value to the team, and I see my manager bring this up multiple times to my Director/VP - think they're worried that the additional burden will burn me out and make me want to leave (pretty lean team).
Don't want to crucify the new member, but I also have expressed I can't add an additional 10+ hours or work to my schedule for training/checking work on top of my day job. Won't mind if I leverage this into an additional raise/pressure for promotion. Thanks in advance.
Update: Damn this blew up and took a turn with some of the interpretations. My reply all is:
How are the analytical skills bad? How old/experienced is this person?
1-2 years prior at the analyst level at a larger firm out of college, but seemed more operational and less data crunching as we learned more about his position. Finance degree.
Ex: Needs to pull comp set/market info and should take like an hour max but seems to take most of the day, with minimal analytical take aways that can be summarized to team. Like a "here's the info" then can't speak to the big picture. Consistently has data integrity issues on reporting, has me reclarifying things a lot (2-3 times I'm cool with, but after that it's like we should start picking up).
Some of this stuff seems like it can be worked out but worried if we can't get simple internal information correct what happens when he miscalcs interest curves/returns and is way off.
Sounds problematic. OTOH, presumably this person beat out other candidates in your search. So before doing anything drastic, consider whether the available talent pool will provide anything better for what your firm is willing to offer. Based on that, decide whether it's worth it to go back to the pool or to patiently build this person up. Most people can get there eventually. But it depends on how long that will take and what our alternatives are.
In my experience, the quality of someone's writing is a better indicator of their intelligence than the way they come off in an interview. It's helpful if you can find a writing sample online, like a college thesis or something.
Or just ask them for a writing sample?
Agreed, definitely a component that I think can signal that better than an interview.
I asked my team if we could do a simple excel test just as a gut check during the last round, but went by the way side. Rearing it's head a little bit now.
I can speak to this on the flip side. I lost my return offer because my Excel modeling skills were not there -- even though I had passed the firm's Excel modeling assessment in interviews. In hindsight, I can't say I blame my employer. I just would've appreciated more upfront feedback beforehand. So I would just be upfront with the analyst about his/her shortcomings, potentially even saying that you are unable to take on the additional training and need him/her to learn by themselves in order to continue to make this work. I would give that analyst a chance. And if the analyst is eventually unable to pick up the material on his/her own, then I would reconsider at that point.
Preciate your insight. Agree 100% with what you're saying, and we've begun this process. Our team has a great culture and are wanting to support bolstering any shortfalls (as a whole, not just this individual).
I came from a pretty shitty firm before that was wouldn't have been as accommodating to newer analyst, so I'm trying to be very cognizant. Shoot em straight and give them the tools to succeed.
do you work at Berkadia
I've dealt with this a number of times. To some degree a fresh analyst is always going to basically be a useless asset that you have to invest a certain amount of time and patience into before you can start putting stuff on their desk and really trusting them to take it and run. But after a certain amount of time / ad-hoc training / hand-holding .. it really falls on them. This business is not rocket science - certainly not on the numbers side of things.
As an adult you should be cognizant of whether or not you're producing good work and contributing to the team. If you're not and you realize that you should be working hard to improve your work product and/or find other areas to contribute. If you're not and you don't realize that - well in my opinion that is the worst indictment of someone's intelligence and potential to succed.
I think you're failing to see the opportunity in front of you. You are now in a position to demonstrate your leadership by helping out a new team member and bringing them into the fold. It will make you a better leader and make you look better because it's hard, because the person isn't getting it.
As for the quote above, don't put too much stock in that - in fact, I think you should discount it 100%. Working in a company, HR, etc, is not a "it's either them or me!" scenario. Hiring people and on boarding them is expensive, you think they're going to unwind that at the drop of a hat? You think your boss is going to admit that they made bad decisions after they ran an interview with that person? And this is all assuming that you are correct and your bosses see it the same way. Maybe your bosses were slow learners too? Maybe they have more empathy for the new employee than they have for you? Maybe they see you as a whiner rather than someone that's helping out? You're gambling with your career by following that path when you could just be helping out instead.
I’ll play devils advocate here and say not everyone is cut out for certain jobs. The question to OP is, how long has this person been in there role? A month? 6 months? If we are talking 6+ months and they are still not getting it then it’s time to really think about things and their value. It sounds like OP is working with the person and not just throwing them in the fire. At some point, you either sink or swim and it’s also on that said person you take the initiative to try and better themselves as best they can with the feedback given.
I don't think the time is as significant as you think. It's still a losing scenario if the bosses see you as a whiner. If the new hire has been there a short time, then the bosses may want to give them more time, empathy may still be high. If the new hire has been there a while (lets just use 6 months) then how bad can they really be? How much are you bosses really disposed to get rid of a person 6 months in? They can't be that bad (at least in the bosses' eyes) if they've been there half the year right? The new hire would have pissed off a big boss by now, no?
The time is irrelevant, the smart move is still to pick up a shovel and help, not whine.
This is an excellent point.
What do you think the principals would rather see - the employee they hired exceed or face the fact that they hired the wrong person?
In general, turnover cost's money - let's say they fire this employee, it will be a few months before you get someone else in the seat, and then you still may have to deal with training, etc., and end up in a similar position. The labor market is still pretty hot right now, so I'd imagine you'll be hard-pressed to find a turnkey analyst (assuming you are not a top shop paying above market comp, which I doubt is the case here if you hired someone without and excel test).
The point being here, it's in your best interest to see this person succeed. Dreamer4life had it right above - shoot straight with them and let them know they are underperforming; at the same time, up the amount of support you give them. I think in the end it will be better for you to help this person succeed. I'd think of it the same way as if the Director/Principals put a shitty deal under contract - you might have even told everyone it was a bad idea, but they still proceeded - they would be a lot happier if you helped find a way to salvage the deal and make it a win, rather than give up and start over with a new deal (Fire the employee and hire someone new).
Exceed what, retard?
Looking at how many times you italicized and topics of other threads you've started I know you're corny
You were looking at the italics when you should have been looking at the WSO votes, son. You posted looking for sympathy and nobody gave it to you so you decide to throw a tantrum. All we're seeing is that the new hire isn't the problem - the problem is you.
In my experience with attention to detail unless you're very upfront about their mistakes and make sure they pay for them (usually in extra hours to fix them), it's not going to get better. If their attitude is positive and they're willing to put in the time it's possible they get better. If not, I would cut bait quickly.
On summarizing data - that's one that I would expect to come more with time and should improve with coaching.
What are the odds that the firm ends up firing them in your opinion based on the conversations you've heard?
Has the firm given any training to the new analyst?
Just trying to get more color here so I can offer better feedback based on the situation.
Lot of info missing here. How long have they been on the team? If it's a couple weeks, can't ask them to be proficient the moment they sit down. How much training and oversight is being given? Kind of sounds like you've thrown this person into the pool and then complained when they didn't do the stroke you wanted. Just because you let this person look over your shoulder the one time you pulled comps doesn't mean you're done with helping.
Obviously a lot we don't know, but this sounds like someone without much experience getting hired, left alone, and then complaining that they don't know how to execute to the level of someone with years of experience with the firm. If it's a smart person, and it must be, since they got through the interview process well enough, then the problem probably lies with you and not them.
I would definitely add that the analyst isn't the only one without much experience. It sounds like it's this Sr. Analyst/Associate's first time as a people manager, and he's learning too!
Yes, good point. Also worth noting that managing people is a skill that not everyone has - OP could be fantastic at his job but just not a very good manager. Which is fine!
Do you mind if I PM you?
Post is similar to my situation (different industry) but am trying to navigate a difficult situation at work.
With a new analyst, it’s best to be very specific with your instructions. If all you said was, “Put these comps in Excel,” then the analyst is going to do just that. They need to be told that you also expect them to present some high level conclusions. They don’t know what they don’t know.
+1 SB, this is spot on
Exactly, need to treat them essentially like interns until they have time to build up and can put live work on their desk
Id be more curious about what is the guys attitude like, unless you think he is just too stupid to learn but I doubt that. Like when I first started banking an my VP went over things I told him it helped me to have things written or typed out so then he started adding comments to my word documents and stuff and sending to me. I also made clear to him that I wanted to be given more and more complex task and take things off his plate.
Does the analyst express anything like this to you? Does he want to get better?
OP still hasn’t said how long this person has been in their role..major difference in a couple months vs say 6+ months.
Probably because the guy has been there for 2 weeks and has received absolutely no direction or education about how to best perform his job. The entire post sounds like a major fail on the part of the OP, not on the analyst.
I couldn’t agree more!! I have seen analyst get fired after a month or three due to leadership’s incompetence.
The kid is probably freaking out because he doesn’t understand your proforma and no steps in place to help him learn!
Go and check your emails from when you started to now! Clear difference OP!
Coming from an intern myself, I think you should be transparent and just talk to them, give constructive criticisms, I personally love to ask for feedbacks and areas of improvement.
Just my $0.02.
Not exactly sure what the point of this post is, it basically reads:
"Hey guys, I am great at a my job, new hire sucks, and I am amazing. Please compliment me on how smart I am."
Honestly, I been in the industry for a decade plus. I didnt know jack diddly about RE when I graduated. Learned what a cap rate is in my first year and slowly built up my knowledge. I interviewed well and a firm took a chance on me. I learned everything and now I make it a habit to train others because we should all repay the favor.
I'd prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt and took it as "this is my first time managing people and I didn't realize how green new hires generally are and how much training goes into teaching them."
Did you firm use cognitive test during recruiting? If yes then I guess you can go off of that to determine if hes just a slow learner who you just have to be a bit more patient with or if hes normal intelligence and just lazy. Or however else you wanna interpret it, but it can be useful for your decision.
To be honest starting a brand new role while wfh is pretty challenging. Sometimes you really don't know what you don't know. It tough...
I think this is partially why it's a lot more common for shops to have take home cases during the interview process now
I’ve trained in a lot of people. Keep rotating who is training him - normally shouldn’t be a task for one person. Ask what he is having trouble with and have him walk you through the steps he takes - this will help poke holes in any logic. Have him take notes as well. This will slow him down initially but cement things further. Hell, after you’ve walked them through something have them do it over again.
Poor communication from the top can kill both sides of training. They are trying to figure out what all the role entails and are nervous at the same time. Acronyms or any goofy names you may have are completely foreign.
If they have a finance degree they can probably wrap their head around basic excel skills to understand the basics. Maybe recommend courses here or CFI that could help them develop more skills.
Smile often and carry a big stick. Don’t be afraid to a show a little anger. Basically, try not to be a dick the entire time, but anytime you notice they’re about to make a mistake turn up the heat a bit. Don’t yell but place more emphasis on ‘stop’ and be direct. Crescendo until the end of the given training task to a point where you can give them a celebratory ‘good Shit’ or ‘babagadoosh’ with a high five at the end to keep them motivated. Happy swearing lightens the mood. Angry swearing reminds them of a drunk uncle. Good luck. Use this as an opportunity to develop soft skills.
This isn’t a fun place to be. I have worked with incompetent managers and associates/analyst.
If it’s someone junior to you, provide them with steps to be successful and suggest turn around time lines. I have an analyst on my team who is extremely great at excel and moves very fast but also makes mistakes I overlook but push him to triple check his work. Another analyst is extremely friendly, moves slow and has relations with management. Wants to learn things his way and creates noice or headache for me!
My suggestion is to make his role more structured. Let him sit next to you and watch you build a model. If you have a process for gathering comps, various inputs, etc… make that clear to your analyst. If you haven’t walked this person through and you are being big picture, you are the one failing this person!!
Many managers end up talking at people and don’t want to get in the weeds which creates a lot of problems and end up firing the junior guy unless it’s family and then they create a special structure or role for the special person.
Be patient and try to help or document the process to help all parties, meaning your process for gathering comps, underwriting, etc.
Even blind copy them to see how you communicate with leadership to explain the numbers. If they send emails, tell them to have a view or take away and you should be empathetic in giving feedback of why it fits into your company’s strategy or it doesn’t. Set up a weekly 1/1.
Market is too frothy…. Not the time to fire a kid!!
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I often times find that situations like this generally stem from poor management and expectations settings. I once was encouraged to leave a job because the management felt my attention to detail was lacking. In reality the hired me to do a competely different job, canceled that project withing the first 90 days of me being there, stuck me in some random group doing internal analytics and capital management. When I actually spoke with the people who recieved the work outputs that I generated none of them said they even looked at what we created; half of them said they didn't even know it existed. The guidelines for product expectataion would randomly change with zero expectation realy to me or the team. I finally just started sticking random bs in the work product just to see what would happen, the answer was nothing. I ended up spending 22 months at a company where I worked on productive work for 90 days, then basically sat on my ass for 19 months working on something that no one had any idea what they wanted from it. Was encouraged to quit when I "didn't meet quality expectations". To be fair by that point I was spending less than 4 hours per week in the office working on anything, so I can get their point of view.
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